I am facilitating a peacemaking circle this Monday about the use of the N word in rap music. The teens in our program don't have a problem with it, however, some of our employees (black and white) do. I found this interesting web site that is striving to abolish the accepted use of the N word (the N word is nigger, or any variation ie niggah'). Here's a link to their web site and a portion of their mission statement. Anyone care to comment? I agree with their stance on the use of the N word.
http://www.abolishthenword.com/homepage.htm
As a small group of Brooklynites who grew up during the original old school era of hip hop, we remember when rap songs never used the "N" word or profanity for that matter. We remember referring to our friends as homeboy and home girl. And we were still cool. We remember the airing of "Roots" and the sting of hearing the "N" word on national television for the first time. Now we ask ourselves what happened. What happened in our community that the "N" word is tossed around freely in everyday language? When the use of it makes you cool, down, accepted.
Our community has come full circle as we extend an invitation to others to call us the "N" word as well and we answer with a smile. Our ancestors must be rocking in their graves. The "N" word is not a term of endearment. It cannot be reapropriated. We cannot redefine the "N" word or re-spell it to make it positive. Racism is so subtle, we now think that we can embrace the "N" word and take away its power. However, not enough time has passed for this concept to be effective. The word is viewed as a racial slur at large, it will continue to be so until it is put away for a generation, and then maybe it can be embraced at such time in a historical context.
Until the pain of this word no longer lingers in society for any of us, we cannot continue to use the "N" word. Every time we use the "N" word it is a slap in the face of our elders and a blatant disrespect to our ancestors. We have not only lost our minds, but we've lost consciousness.
The dependency of this word as a greeting, to complete sentences and start conversations is a total disregard for every movement that gave us the many freedoms we enjoy today. This site is our answer to a call to duty. We now challenge you to make a personal commitment and join us in the movement to abolish the "N" word.
I find it ironic that the very people that were offended by that word when I was growing up are using it more freely than it ever was then.I guess it's ok as long as a white person doesn't say it.
QuoteI find it ironic that the very people that were offended by that word when I was growing up are using it more freely than it ever was then.I guess it's ok as long as a white person doesn't say it.
I don't think the same people who were offended by the N word are the same one's using it today.
There's a really excellent book on the topic by Randall Kennedy.
I think use of the word may be appropriate in certain contexts. But being a cracker, I don't think it's my place to say.
I don't allow the kids in my library to call each other that word, not only because it is offensive to some bystanders, but because it is used as an insult more often than not.
tracy, i don't know if you have time to look into this but the FX channel aired an incredible series about race relations called Black/White. It was co-produced by Ice Cube. two families, one white, one black, shared a home and each family was transformed, with the aid of some incredible make-up artists, into members of the other race. they then experienced some things as black and white. one episode dealt directly with the use of nigger as a greeting versus its use as a racial slur.
some black people went on to explain that by taking back the power of the word nigger, they are negating its effect as a slur and an insult. they also said that this was only acceptable among black people and that a white person, who hadn't suffered through the pain inflicted by the word, was therefore not allowed to use it.
there was an absolutely harrowing scene where the black teenage boy (who came into the class in "white face") was taking an etiquette class in Bel air and said he didn't mind the use of nigger so the teenage boys started acting like a bunch of hip-hop morins calling each other and him my nigger... it was just terrible...
personally, i find the word offensive and i don't think it can ever not be offensive, no matter how much time has passed or how many advances black people have made in north america. i would never ever call a black friend a nigger even if we'd been friends forever. some of my jewish friends would call each other kike or yid as a joke to mimic the use of nigger. i think it's just super-super clever and funny :P until some asshole who isn't jewish or black calls you that same racial slur.
also... look at the word "bitch". there was a time where that was a terrible thing to call a woman and now women use it routinely, both as put-downs and terms on endearment. as women. thing is, i can say to my girlfriend "come here, bitch" and it would be fine but if my husband told me i was a bitch i would be really hurt...
the point is, i think, to look at the intent as much as the word. i understand why people would want to abolish the use of nigger, but i can also see how removing the word's power makes it useless for people who use it with hateful intentions. by making a mockery of the term instead of it remaining taboo, it becomes meaningless.
remember that part of Freakonomics about the guy who infiltrated the KKK and had their secret codes and words used in cartoons? it took away their menacing tone...
i hate that word. i hate it in all contexts. but, i understand the impetus behind reappropriation, but i don't think it makes it meaningless. and i don't think we should make it meaningless. we're so apt to forget about horrors and that's why a lot of history keeps repeating itself. when i hear the n word i hear the history of it. even when people use it as a term of friendship. i think about where it came from and what it once meant, and it makes me think about how shit like that can't happen anymore. i think we need to be reminded of things - it's like how mothers brains over time forget the pain of childbirth so that they'll have more babies. we forget about how painful certain relationships were, we forget about the immediacy of terror we felt when 9/11 was happening and the only thing that will keep those memories fresh is to make sure that we think about that stuff all the time, and i think that's one thing that the n word can do - remind us how we can't, can NOT repeat the same mistakes. we're supposed to remember what we've learned.
that's a really good point EC. i am pretty lucky to have never experienced the kind of racism that black people have experienced in the US. i think that older black people, in their 40s and up, don't use "nigger" in conversation because they know what it's like to have that hurled at you like a dagger... black teenagers (and this is what the kid's father tells him on the Black/White show) haven't had to experience as much oppression, so they don't understand the weight of the word.
ultimately, it's just really crass...
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I don't think the same people who were offended by the N word are the same one's using it today.
I think you know what I meant,let me rephrase...the same race of people. ;)
And I HATE that word and cringe whenever I hear ANYONE use it.
I see it as a measure of the (low) intellect of the individual using the word--regardless of their race.
i have the worst internal potty mouth and i know that i, for one, would look down on people who swear excessively or gratuitously, i think of them as less intelligent and less capable of proper self-expression... so i try not to swear in good company.
it does say a lot about people who choose to use that word.
Wittgenstein would say that it's all about the definitions used by those individuals using the word. So, if two guys (or girls) understand the meaning of the word in the same way, in the same context, then they are speaking the same language and can justify it. If someone from the outside comes along and uses the word but is not clued in on the definintions and meanings of the first two, they will never understand each other.
Richard Pryor stop using the word, not necessarily because he thought the word was wrong to use, but the collective definition of the word used by the outside world (outside his group/audience) was negative and he no longer wanted to contribute to the negative perceptions being bandied about by the white upper class.
none of this makes sense.
ass. ass. penis. ass.
QuoteWittgenstein would say that it's all about the definitions used by those individuals using the word. So, if two guys (or girls) understand the meaning of the word in the same way, in the same context, then they are speaking the same language and can justify it. If someone from the outside comes along and uses the word but is not clued in on the definintions and meanings of the first two, they will never understand each other.
that's just about what i think. it's just words, people, letters put together in an organised fashion, but the intent behind the word is the most important thing. sure, i completely understand that the older folks wouldn't want to use it or hear it, but the younger people see it as a term of endearment and comradery, so guess what, they're not using it with the intent of slurring each other. that doesnt' make it right, it makes it it. (how's that for zen?)
i don't consider myself racist because i hate everyone equally. i tend to base my opinions of people not on skin colour, but attitude, behaviour, and respect (or lack thereof) for other people.
I do find the word appropriate in Patti Smith's angry "Rock and Roll Nigger" even though it still makes me cringe when I listen to the song.
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the younger people see it as a term of endearment and comradery, so guess what, they're not using it with the intent of slurring each other.
In some cases, yes. But I hear the word every day used by one young African-American to insult another. To me, that's sad.
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In some cases, yes. But I hear the word every day used by one young African-American to insult another. To me, that's sad.
Sad yes, and it also infuriates people like Spike Lee, Bill Cosby and Chuck D (to name a few) too.
All this... ugh.
It is the biggest double-standard of all time. Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with race, but it is pretty rediculous. They get their own word which we can't use. They get a national holiday, an entire month. They get affirmative action. If white people had their own word or a million man march or a "white appretiation month" we would be labeled as extreme racists. I understand that it is all because of civil rights and making up for the horrible past african americans had to suffer, but I think it is time that we all just shut the fuck up and live with what we have become. Things will continue to progress and change, but things will always digress as well. It is the paradox of life. If another race wants to use a word, let them. Just don't use it yourself. That is all you can really do, even though it is a hypocritical mess.
To the thread starter.. I respect what you are doing and appretiate it, because it is for the youth. You are definately on the right track, in my opinion, by getting to the youth. Change the youth, you change the future.
I know this post will probably come off as racist to some people, but please beleive me when I say, I hold no judgements by race. I respect every singular person in every race until they give me a reason not to. It is just the double-standard that gets me.
QuoteThey get their own word which we can't use. They get a national holiday, an entire month. They get affirmative action
"they"??
banjo, your comments do come across as racist (or perhaps not thought out). "They"? "They" get their own word we can't use? Who the hell do you think made that word up? And you know what? You can use that word (and it sounds like you're upset b/c you can't).
And tell me what entire month is a national holiday? Do you know what a national holiday is?
I see both sides of affirmative action. However, you can't enslave a race of people for a couple of hundred years and expect that race to overcome slavery from a couple of decades of equal rights.
I find it very hard to believe you "hold no judgements about race".
I didn't set this thread up to bash anyone, these are just my thoughts and opinions and I have to disagree with some of your points and yes, your tone comes across as racist (or thoughtless).
enslavement or genocide.....minorities in this country have always been treated so well.
slavery was horrible. no doubt about that, but at least a huge attempt wasnt made to wipe them out completely and steal their land.
"They" as in black people. Just like I would say Them or They if I was referring to white people in gerneral, or any other race for that matter. Don't get all offended because I didn't type "people of the afro or african american race". Do I know what a national holiday is? Yes. Did I think people would get my point if I used the term to label the month, yes. Obviously I was wrong. Not as bright as I was assuming, guess I made an ass out of u and me.
I knew people would think of it as racist, but ask anyone who knows me (Primushead back me up here) and they will tell you I am far from racist. All I was trying to do was point out the hypocracy of it all. I do occasionally use the word, just not in a derogatory way. I use it in jest or when talking to a close friend, occasionally. You probably don't understand that, though. I am not mad that I can't use it, all I am saying is if you are offended by it, then you shouldn't use it. To each his own. The hypocrits like rappers who use the word in every sentence that comes out of their mouth but would be the first ones to beat up a white person who used it are the ones that upset me. After all, even with all the connotations it may carry to some people, it is just a word.
I was not trying to start and argument here, we are all on the same page.
We are not "all on the same page" Banjohead. Some of your thoughts are downright ignorant and xenophobic. Try and step away from your environment for awile, whether through travelling and/or education and come back and talk.
I've run across people who resent the attention Jews get regarding the Holocaust: "Why doesn't anyone mention Rwanda or Cambodia? It's because Jews have power and money and control the media" If you find their comparisons agreeable, then I feel bad for you.
QuoteWe are not "all on the same page" Banjohead. Some of your thoughts are downright ignorant and xenophobic. Try and step away from your environment for awile, whether through travelling and/or education and come back and talk.
I've run across people who resent the attention Jews get regarding the Holocaust: "Why doesn't anyone mention Rwanda or Cambodia? It's because Jews have power and money and control the media" If you find their comparisons agreeable, then I feel bad for you.
Ignorant and xenophobic? First of all, you don't know me, so don't try to act like you do, or assume anything about me. I have traveled a lot. I have been to Costa Rica for 5 weeks for a language school, where I got to know many minorities, not just Costa Ricans. I have made numerous trips to Europe and stayed in plenty of Hostels and made friends with people from all races from all over the world. They were not thoughts I came up with myself. They are thoughts I have read and heard. I was only trying to point out the side of this argument that many people overlook because of their own ignorance or lack of intellect. If you can't handle and/or understand my points, you sir are the ignorant one. Also, where the hell did this anti-sematic stuff come from?? Did I even ONCE ellude to the Jewish religion? Yeah, and I am the ignorant one.
banjohead, im not going to say if i agree or disagree with what you say because im conflicted about this subject, overall. i will say that when you present a somewhat different opinion on this board, for whatever its worth, you will find more than one person that tells you to get more education and travel more. these superior beings obviously have conquered the world and experienced everything there is to experience, and therefore, your opinion doesnt mean shit because youre not quite as worldly. its hilarious that differing opinions are always chalked up to lack of education.
and by the way, what the fuck do jews have to do with this argument?
Quotebanjohead, im not going to say if i agree or disagree with what you say because im conflicted about this subject, overall. i will say that when you present a somewhat different opinion on this board, for whatever its worth, you will find more than one person that tells you to get more education and travel more. these superior beings obviously have conquered the world and experienced everything there is to experience, and therefore, your opinion doesnt mean shit because youre not quite as worldly. its hilarious that differing opinions are always chalked up to lack of education.
and by the way, what the fuck do jews have to do with this argument?
Wow, thank you for your post. It is good to see someone who isn't so fucking elitist and close-minded.
banjo, you might want to re-think or restate your points, b/c we are not on the same page here. How you think we're on the same page here is bizarre.
You state, "They get a national holiday, an entire month." And somehow it's my fault b/c I didn't get what you were meaning? (and I still don't get where you're going with equating Black History month with whichever national holiday. Martin Luther King Day? In January? The only national holiday for an African American? What the fuck is your point?) And you haven't made an ass out of me (what the hell are you talking about?). Your language is all over the place man. You're obtuse and inarticulate, so, somehow that makes me an ass? yikes!
I challenge you to not stereotype races of people by using words like "they". Unless you believe all races act the same way.
So, your main point is that people are hypocrites? Wow, now that's some ground breaking thought there. You didn't lose any sleep coming up with that jewel, did you?
You sound like a racist. Period. And you sound pretty clueless, despite the fact you went to Costa Rica once. I half expect you to say you have a black friend...
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Why did you delete your post?
I think the holocaust was awful. I think every form of genocide or attempted genocide is awful. The sad truth is, because America had something to do with World War 2, the holocaust was "the worste" to most Americans. Sadly, the Cambodian massacres and ones of the like were not influenced or changed by America, so we don't generally get much education on them. If only people were better educated.
i deleted it because its honestly more trouble than not to deal with this subject. just as you have problems presenting yourself with the subject of this thread without scrutiny, i too, cannot seem to be understood on the subject at hand here without being lazily labeled an anti-semite and all that shit. its the reason ive given up trying to have discussions about it.
lately in life, ive found it easier to preach to the choir than try to debate endlessly when neither side will budge. im sure ill get my fiery side back some time, but for now, its what works for me.
Quotebanjohead, im not going to say if i agree or disagree with what you say because im conflicted about this subject, overall. i will say that when you present a somewhat different opinion on this board, for whatever its worth, you will find more than one person that tells you to get more education and travel more. these superior beings obviously have conquered the world and experienced everything there is to experience, and therefore, your opinion doesnt mean shit because youre not quite as worldly. its hilarious that differing opinions are always chalked up to lack of education.
and by the way, what the fuck do jews have to do with this argument?
actually, banjo is the one who is bragging about his travels and being educated. Perhaps some looking at
self here would be beneficial? I could give a shit about your education and world travels and I have never mentioned that. banjo did, however....continue the rescue rats, but you're not talking about me here.
Quotebanjo, you might want to re-think or restate your points, b/c we are not on the same page here. How you think we're on the same page here is bizarre.
You state, "They get a national holiday, an entire month." And somehow it's my fault b/c I didn't get what you were meaning? (and I still don't get where you're going with equating Black History month with whichever national holiday. Martin Luther King Day? In January? The only national holiday for an African American? What the fuck is your point?) And you haven't made an ass out of me (what the hell are you talking about?). Your language is all over the place man. You're obtuse and inarticulate, so, somehow that makes me an ass? yikes!
I challenge you to not stereotype races of people by using words like "they". Unless you believe all races act the same way.
So, your main point is that people are hypocrites? Wow, now that's some ground breaking thought there. You didn't lose any sleep coming up with that jewel, did you?
You sound like a racist. Period. And you sound pretty clueless, despite the fact you went to Costa Rica once. I half expect you to say you have a black friend...
The whole thing about black people having their own day and word and that shit was something I read once on an anti-black flier on an extremely racist forum. It is interesting to me to read things like that, because it is a good idea not to be close minded to anything, just form your own opinions and try not to let anything influence you too much. I figured it would be interesting to see what would happen if I brought up the point. You guys just can't handle another opinion, wether it is mine or not.
As for you trying to belittle me with your enormous intellect and trying to make it seem like I thought my points were "so great and original" just prove my point about you being a close-minded elitist even further. It is ok though, you have Sparky to lick the penut-butter off your nuts if you get sad again.
I challenge you to not judge someone on something as huge as racism after one post that was "not well thought out." I guess I should have posted with a fucking attention notice or a warning or something.
Bragging about my travels? Fool. I brought it up to defend myself against that nut-jobs attack on me.
I will give you all what you want and not come back to these forums, this is getting to be more trouble than it is worth dealing with. I am still going to read the stuff, but I won't pollute this forum of godliness with my devilish ignorance anymore. Have fun at church Tracy! Happy times. MMJ rules.
sparky has NOTHING to do with this. you take that back banjohead. this is not a funny post, i'm serious.
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The whole thing about black people having their own day and word and that shit was something I read once on an anti-black flier on an extremely racist forum. It is interesting to me to read things like that, because it is a good idea not to be close minded to anything, just form your own opinions and try not to let anything influence you too much. I figured it would be interesting to see what would happen if I brought up the point. You guys just can't handle another opinion, wether it is mine or not.
As for you trying to belittle me with your enormous intellect and trying to make it seem like I thought my points were "so great and original" just prove my point about you being a close-minded elitist even further. It is ok though, you have Sparky to lick the penut-butter off your nuts if you get sad again.
I challenge you to not judge someone on something as huge as racism after one post that was "not well thought out." I guess I should have posted with a fucking attention notice or a warning or something.
Bragging about my travels? Fool. I brought it up to defend myself against that nut-jobs attack on me.
I will give you all what you want and not come back to these forums, this is getting to be more trouble than it is worth dealing with. I am still going to read the stuff, but I won't pollute this forum of godliness with my devilish ignorance anymore. Have fun at church Tracy! Happy times. MMJ rules.
banjo, ya know, I never said you were a racist; I said you come across or sound racist, there's a difference. As far as belittling you with my enourmous intellect, I think I get the sarcasm? Man, I just don't get people who can dish it out but not take it. I absolutely don't get that.
I really don't know where you're coming from banjo and I talk to people about race all the time and have been doing so for years. But your diatribe is lost on me and I have talked to the educated and uneducated, the traveled and home bodies. I have no idea what your point is.
BTW, it's not p
enut butter, it's p
eanut butter (well, actually, it's honey, but that's a lil' secret that Sparky and I used to share).
you're a victim banjo, get used to it.
man, try to have an honest discussion about race and the N word and some yay-hoo has to drag it down to the LCD of my dog licking various sundries off my nuts.
What if this was not the least of my worries?
every day is white history day... setting aside february to celebrate black culture is as belittling and ridiculous as international woman's day or secretary week.
"we" (white people) have plenty of words that i encourage everyone to use, best exemplified by the following exchange:
Interviewer: Alright, Mr. Wilson, you've done just fine on the Rorshact.. your papers are in good order.. your file's fine.. no difficulties with your motor skills.. And I think you're probably ready for this job. We've got one more psychological test we always do here. It's just a Word Association. I'll throw you out a few words - anything that comes to your mind, just throw back at me, okay? It's kind of an arbitrary thing. Like, if I say "dog", you'd say..?
Mr. Wilson: "Tree".
Interviewer: "Tree". [ nods head, prepares the test papers ] "Dog".
Mr. Wilson: "Tree".
Interviewer: "Fast".
Mr. Wilson: "Slow".
Interviewer: "Rain".
Mr. Wilson: "Snow".
Interviewer: "White".
Mr. Wilson: "Black".
Interviewer: "Bean".
Mr. Wilson: "Pod".
Interviewer: [ casually ] "Negro".
Mr. Wilson: "Whitey".
Interviewer: "Tarbaby".
Mr. Wilson: [ silent, sure he didn't hear what he thinks he heard ] What'd you say?
Interviewer: [ repeating ] "Tarbaby".
Mr. Wilson: "Ofay".
Interviewer: "Colored".
Mr. Wilson: "Redneck".
Interviewer: "Junglebunny".
Mr. Wilson: [ starting to get angry ] "Peckerwood!"
Interviewer: "Burrhead".
Mr. Wilson: [ defensive ] "Cracker!"
Interviewer: [ aggressive ] "Spearchucker".
Mr. Wilson: "White trash!"
Interviewer: "Jungle Bunny!"
Mr. Wilson: [ upset ] "Honky!"
Interviewer: "Spade!
Mr. Wilson: [ really upset ] "Honky Honky!"
Interviewer: [ relentless ] "Nigger!"
Mr. Wilson: [ immediate ] "Dead honky!" [ face starts to flinch ]
Interviewer: [ quickly wraps the interview up ] Okay, Mr. Wilson, I think you're qualified for this job. How about a starting salary of $5,000?
Mr. Wilson: Your momma!
Interviewer: [ fumbling ] Uh.. $7,500 a year?
Mr. Wilson: Your grandmomma!
Interviewer: [ desperate ] $15,000, Mr. Wilson. You'll be the highest paid janitor in America. Just, don't.. don't hurt me, please..
Mr. Wilson: Okay.
Interviewer: [ relieved ] Okay.
Mr. Wilson: You want me to start now?
Interviewer: Oh, no, no.. that's alright. I'll clean all this up. Take a couple of weeks off, you look tired.
now rats... we've been in miraculous agreement the last few weeks and i don't wanna ruin it, but surely you can't say that more education and more travel is *harmful* to one's worldview, right? the more you learn, the more you learn... i don't think i ever mean it to come off as elitist. but you can't possibly tell me that more education will somehow warp your brain. it's not about a 100,000$ college degree... not for me, anyway...
i dunno folks, i've seen stereotypes shattered and confirmed, so much so that i just don't know what to think. our "loss prevention" expert at the record store always said to pay particular attention to the rap, r&b and reggae sections. those were the categories most affected by theft (about 95%) and most likely to be frequented by "urban youth" according to him. i refused to assume that black kids would steal more than white kids, but for every white kid we caught shoplifting in the rap section, we caught five black kids and it killed me inside. i felt like here's this little idiot, who, because of his sheer kid-dom, is perpetuating a really hateful stereotype.
i can see where banjo's frustration comes from even though i don't agree with him. i'm against affirmative action but i can't say i would feel that way if i were black, or hispanic, or native-american. i think there are some fundamental things about racism that i just don't get because i'm not a visible minority.
i've been treated differently by virtue of being a woman and i feel strongly about that in a way that some men may not understand because they haven't been through it.
i read something that went like "if we live in different houses, how can i know what you see through your windows"...
Yeah I did victimize myself in this instance. You did call me racist. I think i will stay, this board needs a racist. Tracy, you really do have the wrong idea about me. I am sure, though, no amount of argument will change your view on any subject, you seem pretty set in your ways. I am happy for Sparky, I hope he likes honey.
but since you're already here, tracy, why don't you tell us what you learned at your seminar, what you heard, and how that went?
QuoteYeah I did victimize myself in this instance. You did call me racist. I think i will stay, this board needs a racist.
NEVER called you a racist. You show me where I did. I suggest you start with reality, it can be a mother fucker if you're not ready for it.
I'll say once again, you sound like a racist, you come across as a racist. Are you a racist? I really do not know.
Good luck.
Quotebut since you're already here, tracy, why don't you tell us what you learned at your seminar, what you heard, and how that went?
not a seminar,
peacemaking circle, 7 of us in circle (4 staff and 3 youth). We never got to the N word b/c we talked about love and forgivness for an hour and how we do not love and somehow are not to quick to forgive. We're trying again this Monday (stay tuned).
banjo... while i'm not sure what tracy thinks (not even mrs. tracy can have that kind of insight), i'm pretty sure he meant that what you said came off as racist (it did to me, too), but that doesn't mean you must be a racist. sometimes it's the tone of things and it may be completely unintentional.
i know ratsprayer has said some things here that made him come off as anti-semitic even though in my heart of hearts i don't believe he is. but it's difficult to look past the words, since on the forum, it's all we have...
i think that last post made it seem like i was mrs. tracy. to clarify, i ain't...
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Also, where the hell did this anti-sematic stuff come from?? Did I even ONCE ellude to the Jewish religion? Yeah, and I am the ignorant one.
No fool, it was an example/parallel comparison of subtle racism that you are guilty of. BTW, do a spell-check before you post.
I am bothered by posts that assume all people of one race act or think the same way. And I'm not talking just about your posts, banjohead.
and I am bothered by the thinking that black history, and Dr. King day, only matter to black people.
QuoteI am bothered by posts that assume all people of one race act or think the same way. And I'm not talking just about your posts, banjohead.
and I am bothered by the thinking that black history, and Dr. King day, only matter to black people.
Well put!
Ohhhhh you got buuuuuuuurrrrrnnneeeddddddddddd.
I am not a racist. I love everyone. Seriously, humans are awesome.
Oh GEEEZZ.
I'm pissed I haven't had the internet for the last few days, looks like I missed a hell of a Crossfire.
So, I guess I'll chime in at the last minute with my thoughts:
How bout them Chinese people? With their Kung-Fu and their Ching Chang Chong talk. I can't understand you!! Go back to where you came from!!
White Power ;)
;D
OK, that was funny. I don't care if it was non-PC. "I don't speak freaky-deaky Dutch."
Racism exists. Racism is bad. Duh. But while the guy's choice of words, specifically referring to "they," can easily come off sounding the wrong way, there are some points I think he was trying to make that I understand.
For example, why do we have "Black Image Awards?" Why is there LULAC? Why do we have "Black History Month?"
Honestly, personally....I don't care. If blacks or Hispanics or whoever feel like having these groups are important, then I guess they are important. But what would be the response if we had a "White Image Awards" show? Or the National Association of White Journalists? etc, etc.
I think there would be a holy shitstorm of pissed-off blacks and Hispanics and so on. And if anyone agrees with that assessment, then you should agree that it's ridiculous to have awards and groups based on ANY race, color, etc.
Until we stop thinking of people as white or black or brown or red or whatever, then we're not getting anywhere. If we start thinking of people as PEOPLE and not defined by their skin color, then we will get beyond this. Until then....this.
Let the flaming begin....
QuoteOK, that was funny. I don't care if it was non-PC. "I don't speak freaky-deaky Dutch."
Racism exists. Racism is bad. Duh. But while the guy's choice of words, specifically referring to "they," can easily come off sounding the wrong way, there are some points I think he was trying to make that I understand.
For example, why do we have "Black Image Awards?" Why is there LULAC? Why do we have "Black History Month?"
Honestly, personally....I don't care. If blacks or Hispanics or whoever feel like having these groups are important, then I guess they are important. But what would be the response if we had a "White Image Awards" show? Or the National Association of White Journalists? etc, etc.
I think there would be a holy shitstorm of pissed-off blacks and Hispanics and so on. And if anyone agrees with that assessment, then you should agree that it's ridiculous to have awards and groups based on ANY race, color, etc.
Until we stop thinking of people as white or black or brown or red or whatever, then we're not getting anywhere. If we start thinking of people as PEOPLE and not defined by their skin color, then we will get beyond this. Until then....this.
Let the flaming begin....
I see your point form, however, there are
plenty of exclusive whites only clubs in America, they're just not as pronounced as they are with blacks. I think the "club" of all whites that have been president and vice president of America is a little more intimidating than Black history month, don't you think?
It is a little odd to have such divided race clubs in the black community but I think some of it has to do with minorites trying to catch up in America, which was exclusively white controlled for centuries (and laws were in place to keep it that way). It really doesn't bother me that blacks have their own clubs and months, I think it's great.
You are more privilaged in this country if your skin is white. Hell, even being
white trash says, "at least I ain't black!" Chris Rock has that bit where he talks about being a millionaire and he's on an elevator and this poor white guy gets on and there's this magical point where the white guy has a choice to trade places with Chris Rock and become black (and rich) and the white guy refuses and says, "I'll just ride this white thing out, see where it takes me".
People do play the race card too much and we are becomming a more fair and balanced nation as the years roll on. I predict the next human rights issue to be classism.
And, I think using the N word is condescending to blacks. And white people know it, a lot of blacks know it too.
Wow, honest to God, I didn't think this issue could have any further discussion...but alas....
So, by the logic extended here, are black churches a bad thing? Sunday morning in the US is more segregated than any other time of the week...this is bad, somehow? By that extension, as churches are an important part of one's culture, are people here saying that by attending a church of one's choice, that their cultural identity is bad? I just don't buy that.
America is a great country, despite it's flaws, but one of the things that makes it great is that despite the differences, we're all peacefully (mainly) co-existing with one another. Nowhere else in the world is such a large, diverse, and polarized population living with one another without revolutions or mass killings every few years. One of the things that makes that a reality is that we celebrate our identities as Americans, which has no color, and our individual identities as well. Our diversity is our strength.
The points about "well, if there were a white history month blah blah blah people would be pissed"...I just don't buy that. That sounds like some bullshit invented by hillbillies while they're cooking crank in the garage. White people have been the dominant race group in this country from the beginning...what the fuck else do white people have to celebrate?? White people make the most money, own the most property, are the majority of public office holders, hold the most prestigious positions of corporate power....in short, every goddamn day in this country is white history day. Whoopee-fucking-do...black people get a month to celebrate their rewritten, revisionist history. Hardly a cause to rally around here, folks.
In conclusion, if you hadn't gotten it by now, white people have always had it made in the shade here, so these concerns are, frankly, petty and small compared to the reality that a lot of black people have to endure over the past 300 years.
After seeing my points presented with different wording, I now understand why I angered yous guys. I apologize for my lackluster articulation and choice of words. I really was not trying to be racist. I will try to find the flier from which the ideas stemmed so you can see I was not trying to present my own thoughts in a racist way. I apologize. Tracy, sorry for the immature remarks about Sparky.
QuoteAmerica is a great country, despite it's flaws, but one of the things that makes it great is that despite the differences, we're all peacefully (mainly) co-existing with one another. Nowhere else in the world is such a large, diverse, and polarized population living with one another without revolutions or mass killings every few years.
I agree with most of what you said regarding the US especially the polarization part, but there are other countries in the world just as diverse - just not as polarizing.
name one, I dare ya!
really though-I can't think of one at all that's as culturally, racially, or religiously diverse as the US. there's a reason we're called the "melting pot" and it ain't 'cause of the cheese... ;)
Canada is a rival, but it's not a melting pot. It's a mosaic... or so former PM Pierre Trudeau says. France, England and The Netherlands also come to mind.
I must preface however, that no country other than India can touch the diversity of religions in the US. Man, who could compete with the huge and sometimes wacky Bible Belt.
And I'd also like to add, Toronto is recognized as the most culturally diverse city in the world. Montreal and Vacouver come pretty darn close too.
oh come on, now. America boasts populations that descend from, well, everywhere. plus, our population is what, 300 million?
http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf
go down to the top 15 ancenstral groups. that's just the top 15...
one of the main differences between the philosophies of multiculturalism in canada and the us is the melting pot/cultural mosaic metaphors. i'm not sure which works better, or makes people feel more at home, but i prefer the cultural mosaic - lots of different tiles in one big piece, as opposed to everyone blending together.
i have ZERO problem with any races or cultures having special privileges in order to educate the population and in fact, i think it's fucking awesome and important.
i certainly agree that we have to start looking at people as people, but i also agree that it's important to recognize our history and see what's happened, otherwise we won't learn from our mistakes. for example, i think we need a bigger focus on native history in canada - most people have no idea what happened, and what is still happening.
it's not a question of righting the wrongs - history can't be changed. but we certainly can't go forward unless we understand what we did.
and by 'we', i mean 'everybody in the world'.
Quote
So, by the logic extended here, are black churches a bad thing? Sunday morning in the US is more segregated than any other time of the week...this is bad, somehow? By that extension, as churches are an important part of one's culture, are people here saying that by attending a church of one's choice, that their cultural identity is bad? I just don't buy that.
.
Speaking of that, a majority, at least that I've seen of black churches are Christian, and so are the many 'white' colored people in America. They believe in the exact same God, the same Jesus, why must there be racial seperation in order to worship?
This is just a general statement, I wanna see what you all think or have to say about it.
Quote
Speaking of that, a majority, at least that I've seen of black churches are Christian, and so are the many 'white' colored people in America. They believe in the exact same God, the same Jesus, why must there be racial seperation in order to worship?
This is just a general statement, I wanna see what you all think or have to say about it.
It's a culture thing. Like roads, you can take any combination of them, but end up in the same place eventually. In the world of faith, IMHO, churches/temples/mosques et al are all roads leading to the same destination. Just because some choose to take their own road that's different from mine, it's no better or lesser than anyone elses.
i'd like to think a so-called "black" church would welcome non-blacks to their services. but they don't say "ebenezer BLACK methodist church" outside.
*real* christianity just doesn't care about a person's gender, color, wealth, etc. but there sure aren't many practitioners who exhibit that sort of inclusiveness. but that's another thread.
i have no truck whatsoever with any person being proud of his or her heritage and wanting to celebrate that. but i stand by my original point and will likely forevermore: until we stop using color as a dividing line, we'll be divided.
JC... i have to support EC and jaimoe's props for Canada's cultural mosaic. i prefer it to the melting pot. i feel that in america, more so since i live in it now, other cultures are expected to completely assimilate and become americans instead of korean-americans, or argentinian-american. while some want and choose to do that, i feel like it's more imposed. i feel that canada is much more tolerant of a vibrant and visible cultural identity.
in 6th grade, when i moved to canada and was in a "welcome" to learn french, we had students from more than 10 countries in a class of 25 students. every day i took the metro to school and work, there could be 5 people wearing ethnic dress reflecting 5 different countries. it's a beautiful thing. and in a country of 30 million, one tenth the size of the US, there are fewer racial tensions (although there are certainly several), there is more understanding, and much less "go back to where you came from".
i can see why visible minorities would want to have special and distinctive organizations to recognize achievement withing the minority group. they are giving themselves the recognition that they may not otherwise get in the "white" world. but i get upset, and it's the reason i'm against affirmative action, when *i* can get penalized for something neither i, nor my ancestors contributed to. my family didn't own any slaves, we didn't even live here.
to illustrate, i was on a police ride-along with my husband's cousin, Chip, in fort smith, arkansas (pop. 80,000). chip is just a regular cop on a regular beat. we were driving along in the early winter evening when a minivan pulled up with no plates, no identification, and no papers in the window indicating it was just purchased. chip started to tell me that he always pulls plate-less cars over and mostly leaves a written warning, which does not carry a fine, nor does it go on the driving record. he said it's just for his records. well, he pulls the car over, talks to the driver and it turns out it was just bought at a used lot, had all the paperwork, and it was all cool. so chip leaves them a warning to get the plates and we drive off. later on, chip gets a call from the acting commanding officer back at the station. it turns out the driver had called to complain that chip had pulled them over because they were black, had held a baton up to scare them, and treated them like common criminals. the CO wanted to hear chip's version of the events.
here's where it gets good: the driver's windows were tinted so dark, they could have and should have gotten a ticket just for that. not only could we not see the driver was a black woman, we couldn't even tell there was another passenger in the car. the "baton" they claimed was a working, police-issue flashlight chip used because it was dark. and because it was dark, they couldn't see that i was in the car, and could hear the whole exchange. he was "yes, ma'am, no, ma'am and have a nice day" the whole way and had said nothing rude, berating, racist or insulting. that's not cool. that's someone taking advantage of a system that, due to the real problem of racism, is extremely weary of complaints. it was someone who did something wrong and cried foul when she got caught and pulled the race card.
i'm not saying that racist cops don't exist. of course they do. but because they do, frivolous and fraudulent complaints destroy the credibility of everyone...
right well this topic hasn't been broughten up (not a word?) in ages, but i was just with a couple of friends from Hopkinton (suburb of Boston...) and they were using hte term (excuse me, i hate saying/typing/thinking about this but it really must be done) "niggerfaggot". not only was I offended by it, but so was my brother and everyone else who i was with.
except the kids saying it.
now,. they're good kids. we've been friends for my entire life... literally. and they're good kids., with good intentions. and i realize that this hsit happens because outside of "the city" and where hter isn't as much diversity they don't even GET IT. they don't udnrestand the power of hte words they're using. and it's disgusting. i don't blame them. i blame the whole society.
sorry
i was pretty offended.
Racist language is so common these days that most people don't notice it. It still offends me in most cases, though. And just because everyone uses it doesn't make it good (just as everyone listening to Nickelback doesn't make them good). :(
"good" is relative.
I knew you'd say that. I meant "appropriate".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6586787.stm
Quotehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6586787.stm
so how long till we see either Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton with their arms around Simmons at some televised coverage?
I say within the week.