Maybe this bail out isn't necessary? It seems like the same old same old, to me. What if we let the economy take care of itself and Americans learn to live within their means, without having to have everything and have it now?
I got rid of my 36 inch TV last year and my car was paid for in 2001. I am able to be more selective with the work I do b/c money isn't the key factor; there are no Joneses for me to keep up with. I am credit card debt free and the stress in my life comes from real stuff (the usual childhood fears, death, people saying bad things about MMJ, etc...).
So what about it? We can certainly "pull ourselves up by our bootstraps", right? And it will be hard as hell to do without so many things we can simply do without, right? Or is the government selling us the perfect lie; that we cannot do this without their "help"?
I hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah, I think the government is trying to sell us the perfect lie. I think we should try to let it fix itself and if that ends up failing, then begin talking about a possible bailout. I don't see it as a solution to the problem.
For the first time in my 21 year old life, I am truly concerned about the economy and it's affect on my future.
777.68 points. Jesus.
I'm pretty close to having my car paid off and the ol piece of plastic only has one or two more payments which I'm extremely proud of. I think in a free market economy the big corporations should fall too, it's just that a lot of people will lose jobs if there is no bailout. I don't follow it that much just my 2 cents
I'm only worried about the house. The rest of the "stuff" is paid for or I wouldn't care if I lost it....except the laptop and the ipod but they're paid off.
I am worried majorily, but not my personal finances. Work stuff. Ugh. Our economy is NOT on sound ground and no one really has a clue what to do to right the course. Pricing on raw materials, finished materials for everyone is on the rise which we all feel in our pocketbooks. When profits matter most, companies raise prices to counter their increased costs, yet saliers are not increasing to match.
i agree w/the idealogy but there is no way the economy can fix itself!!!-
let me say this: companies will go under and gone are the jobs w/in weeks/months, people defaulting on mortgages so the banks kick them out, then there's NO ONE to buy from the bank because no one has cash on hand, now the bank doesn't have cash flow from mortgages so it cannot lend any more (to all the deserving people), people dump their leased cars back to the dealers, no cash flow there, so more sales people laid off, no biggie, right? w/everyone downsizing and economizing (rightly so) no one is going to restaurants, shopping, etc so there goes the service industry (for all those of young people wanting to finance your schooling by serving burgers or bartending-forget that) none of the stores and businesses will be able to pay property taxes, income taxes--so now the govt has less cash flow coming in, hmmmmm--here come the govt layoffs, rampant unemployment--
i like small govt and low taxes just as much as everyone else but it's too late for that---if something happens soon, in a few years, we will start to see some positive effects of this.
there are good banks out there that did things right, and a lot of savvy people who didn't get a mortgage they couldn't afford--and you don't think this will affect you and it can fix itself. it will TRICKLE down. it's not about wall street---
Does anyone know how shitty the dollar is doing against the euro? Just another example of how bad things are going right now.
I'm not as concerned as I probably should be about this market downturn - to me it just looks like stocks are on sale, but those with big portfolios are seeing the value go in the toilet and having a shit-fit for the short-term. Now, when more banks start failing and more and more regular people lose their jobs, then I'd get worried. But when it's CEOs and executives having to pay the piper for obscene salaries and irresponsible management, I don't feel so bad. When you consider the big picture, the market goes up and down, but growth always happens and smart investments will earn money in the long run - unless the economy totally collapses and we have anarchy and lose everything, well, then we're fucked. In my opinion, now is a great time to buy stocks!
Quotei agree w/the idealogy but there is no way the economy can fix itself!!!-
-
I disagree. You want to see this happen again? Then bail them out. If you don't bail them out then the odds of this happening again are exponentially less.
America has a lesson to learn and bailing out these "evil doers" ain't gonna teach anyone shit other than keep on doing what you're doing.
I have a feeling our nation has lost it's true work ethic and is relying on government to solve our issues. A bail out makes it all worse, IMO.
And all these "experts" yelling doom and gloom? Where were they a month ago? Seriously, I don't invest much stock (no pun intended) in these "experts" b/c none of them (not one) was standing on a mountain yelling to high heaven about what was about to go down. Now, they're all "experts" about what should happen next...
I dunno, the more I think about this, the more it stinks of politics and greed.
I say let 'em fall; it will make for hard times, but we're not turning shit around if they get bailed out, I can gurantee you that.
QuoteI'm not as concerned as I probably should be about this market downturn - to me it just looks like stocks are on sale, but those with big portfolios are seeing the value go in the toilet and having a shit-fit for the short-term. Now, when more banks start failing and more and more regular people lose their jobs, then I'd get worried. But when it's CEOs and executives having to pay the piper for obscene salaries and irresponsible management, I don't feel so bad. When you consider the big picture, the market goes up and down, but growth always happens and smart investments will earn money in the long run - unless the economy totally collapses and we have anarchy and lose everything, well, then we're fucked. In my opinion, now is a great time to buy stocks!
crispy--i understand that but it won't happen in stages like that--that's the point---if we could all wait and act once joe blow next door loses his job, it wouldn't be a problem. the point we need to address the problem isn't when we see it start to effect us, it's when something like this legislation doesn't pass and the world loses faith in the market completely.
now is a good time to buy stocks, i would just be choosy---it's a buyer's market for a lot of things
the dollar has been weak for a long time--is this news?
QuoteQuotei agree w/the idealogy but there is no way the economy can fix itself!!!-
-
I disagree. You want to see this happen again? Then bail them out. If you don't bail them out then the odds of this happening again are exponentially less.
I have a feeling our nation has lost it's true work ethic and is relying on government to solve our issues. A bail out makes it all worse, IMO.
And all these "experst" yelling doom and gloom? Where were they a month ago? Seriously, I don't invest much stock (no pun intended) in these "experts" b/c none of them (not one) was standing on a mountain yelling to high heaven about what was about to go down.
I dunno, the more I think about this, the more it stinks of politics and greed. I say let 'em fall; it will make for hard times, but we're not turning shit around if they get bailed out, I can gurantee you that.
i would love to live in this world w/you---and i LOVE ayn rand (lol)--but i give up trying to convince you---i would love it if you were right, i don't even mind taking a financial hit because money doesn't excite me as much as the human spirit and work ethic --
i guess we'll see. i was really off on my OSU-USC prediction so i've been known to be wrong!
Quote
i would love to live in this world w/you---
you do live in this world with me.
And when they get bailed out (and they will), it's just a matter of time until it happens again. But it will be OK, b/c America will still be able to fund million dollar movie blockbusters, athletes will get paid millions, Wall streeters will make millions, pharmaceutical companies will rip off patients and make millions, and teachers will continue to be underpaid.
Anyone else had enough?
I mean, is it really that dire of a situation if Republicans are taking away their votes b/c of the way Nancy Pelosi spoke to them? Or are they so far out of touch that they don't care; they got their feelings hurt so they are like, "Damn the econmy and America!"? And why is Pelosi making such harsh comments at such a dire time? Think about it, it really isn't adding up. The more I think about this and wait to see what happens next, the more I don't buy in to it.
Your idea is a great one Tracy, unfortunately, A LOT of people in America are compulsive borrowers and spenders. Personally, I'm with you...other than some outstanding student loans, we've eliminated all debt from our lives and live well within our means. Of course, we are looking to buy a home, and we do live in California, so we've got that gorilla to deal with soon...
The big problem, as I understand it, is that our credit system has FROZEN. There is very-little-to-no lending going on. This doesn't affect me, or most people now, but when businesses start getting denied credit advances they normally depend on for regular operation, people start losing jobs. It's hard to say how big or bad this crisis is, and I'm no economist, but I do think that the government needs to intervene on some level. Not $700 fucking BILLION worth of intervention, but we're in a tailspin that COULD get ugly without injection of capital.
People don't need loans for the new pool or car, but we do need stable jobs.
I agree with you penny, you can't just wait for everybody to lose their job and then start trying to fix the economy - but businesses tank and people lose their jobs everyday. I suppose there's some sort of threshold of failure where it's obvious there there will be a recession/depression if something isn't done. I do accept that some sort of bailout will need to happen - but there must be accountability for those in upper management who have ridden this wave to enormous wealth while managing their companies' finances irresponsibly. I like Gregg Easterbrook's take:
Quote"Here's an idea: Any company that participates in the bailout agrees to limit its top-tier executives to the federal minimum wage. That is, after all, the amount Washington says is enough to live on."
let the company and shareholders determine that pay. if you try to limit exec pay you really don't--you just force the execs and the company to cover up where the money is going--they find other ways to compensate--- cash is the best way; also, won't we be pushing all our great leaders (take paulson and corzine for example) abroad? it happens in countries when they try to socialize healthcare--
Why does this stuff always happen around election time?
If you think the dollar sucks now, just wait until we bail out the banks with 700 billion dollars that DON'T EXIST!
not that it's funny, but me trying to do this math is---suppose 700 billion is broken down into 320 million people (whatever the pop)
that is 2,187.50/per person
unless i got the zeroes wrong??!! i guess you'd take that number and double it to rule out the non tax payers (children, etc) so $4,375 per/person
Today's Easterbrook thought on the bailout:
"Just One Bailout Thought: As Congress continues to debate whether they are going to hand over $700 billion of your money to the wealthy who screwed up Wall Street and the banking industry, you will be relieved to learn that top executives of the bailed-out firms temporarily will be limited to a strict $500,000 a year in tax-subsidized income. Surely you receive $500,000 a year in tax-subsidized income, don't you? Anyway, supposing we assume the bailout is required, here is what bothers me about the plan so far: Taxpayers don't get stock, what they get is warrants that can be exchanged for stock, and nonvoting stock to boot. This means that once media attention switches to the next crisis that everyone will claim in retrospect to have seen coming, the Wall Street rich can quietly lobby to have the warrants never called, thus keeping the entire bag of gold for themselves. Even if the warrants are called, taxpayers get no voting positions -- meaning the boards of directors of the bailed-out firms can do anything they damn please with taxpayers' money.
A week ago, Warren Buffett rescued Goldman Sachs by injecting $5 billion in capital. Did Buffett bargain for warrants that can be exchanged at an unknown later date for nonvoting shares? No: He is not a fool. Buffett gave Goldman Sachs $5 billion in return for senior preferred stock, the kind that votes and also is more valuable than ordinary shares. That is to say, he used his money to buy something. Goldman can now employ the cash to fix its liquidity problems. The United States Congress and the White House should use the public's $700 billion to buy something, namely senior preferred shares. Why are Congress and George W. Bush not simply following the road map laid out on this problem by the smartest investor of our era? Either Congress and the president are a bunch of blithering fools -- or what they actually want is to insure the public's money is never seen by the public again. "
Makes sense to me.
I consider myself an idiot savant when it comes to macroeconomics, To be honest. I am so fucking confused on what the right thing to do is. Where again is the 700B coming from ?
Is it similar to paying off a credit card with another credit card ?
A little help for the week minded please.
QuoteI consider myself an idiot savant when it comes to macroeconomics, To be honest. I am so fucking confused on what the right thing to do is. Where again is the 700B coming from ?
Is it similar to paying off a credit card with another credit card ?
A little help for the week minded please.
I think we are going to borrow it from the Chinese.
You got it tater, except the other credit card is China
Doh - simulpost! Preview is your friend
A mixture of borrowing from China and printing entirely new currency. Which still, like all of our money today, is backed by nothing except fairy dust and happy thoughts. :(
Hmmm...well, the DJ was +485 today, so Im wondering about all these analysts and citizens ready to bear arms yesterday
I think it was good the initial bailout was vetoed, bc I think they can def come up with a better plan.
Im pretty sure something is going to happen in the next few weeks, and I think they come up with a much better plan/bill (mortgage cuts, etc..sorry VC - I dont think youll receive a check for 4 G's)
Cue Uncle Lou!
Lou Dobbs: Hooray for those who defeated bailout
NEW YORK (CNN) -- CNN's Lou Dobbs is no fan of the $700 billion bailout plan that went down to defeat in the U.S. House of Representatives on Monday. He spoke with Kiran Chetry of CNN's "American Morning" on Tuesday about how he thinks there are better ways to solve the financial problems plaguing the U.S. economy.
Lou Dobbs: Americans "don't want to hear this nonsense about $700 billion to bail out financial institutions."
Kiran Chetry, CNN anchor: CNN's Lou Dobbs joins us this morning from Suffolk, New Jersey. You expressed delight I guess you could say, at the fact that it did go down yesterday in defeat. We saw the largest point-drop on Wall Street ever.
What happens now?
Lou Dobbs, CNN host of "Lou Dobbs Tonight": Well, what happens now is that it sounds like the same fools who brought you this effort are going to try again.
Henry Paulson saying he's going to come right back, suggests he's not learning. And he's not paying attention to the Congress. These Congress people are all at home in their home districts, nearly every one of them and they're hearing an earful. The American people don't want to hear this nonsense about $700 billion to bail out financial institutions. Frankly, Kiran, they don't need it.
Economist after economist, with whom I've spoken, CEOs, they acknowledge that there are far better ways to deal with the issues confronting our financial system than this bailout. And it's absolutely obscenely irresponsible of House Speaker [Nancy] Pelosi, Treasury Secretary [Henry] Paulson, President Bush, Sen. Harry Reid, the leader of the Senate; for these people to be clucking about like hysterical -- so hysterically. It really must stop. And to hear there -- go ahead.
Chetry: I was just going to ask you --
Dobbs: Go ahead.
Chetry: You say that there's other ways around this. One of the things that everyone keeps talking about is the fact that credit markets are frozen and there has to be some way to free that up so that everyday business from Wall Street to Main Street can continue.
Do you buy that?
Dobbs: No, not at all. And neither do most of the CEOs and economists with whom I'm speaking certainly. The real issue, they say, is liquidity. The Fed has injected more than half a billion dollars in liquidity into this banking system.
What we are watching are business -- quote, unquote -- leaders who won't surface and put their faces before the American public who are hysterical. Absolutely hysterical. These are not leaders of moment. They are not leaders of great character or vision. Only Warren Buffett has had the courage to step forward. And that's after he puts $5 billion into Goldman Sachs.
To watch our political leaders, they have no idea in the world, Kiran, what they're doing. Literally. And the arrogance with which this administration asks for, not only money, almost $1 trillion, and surely more in the months ahead. But the absolute power for Treasury Secretary Paulson. Give me a break. The American people want this stopped. Those Congressmen and women at home right now, in their districts, are getting an earful because this is an absurdity and it has to end.
Chetry: So in one way, you're knocking Congress. But on the other way you're saying that, I guess the system works in that the brakes were pulled. Whether or not you agree with the reasons why it didn't go through. So, weren't they doing their job and showing leadership?
Dobbs: Let me be clear, Kiran. I'm saying leadership -- I'm saying the Democratic leadership of this Congress was absolutely in the same situation as this president.
They don't know what they're talking about. They're trying to ram this thing down the people's throats and Congress. And those House Republicans and House Democrats who voted against this bailout deserve a great, great expression of thanks from the American people. Absolutely.
Chetry: What do you think if you were up there making decisions? What do you think we need to do?
Dobbs: Well, the first thing we need to do is return to a traditional role of regulation. ... The problem here is not simply the housing market. ... But $700 billion and nothing in that bill deals with the foreclosure crisis, if you can imagine that. That's arrogance. That's stupidity. That is your leadership in Washington, D.C. Democratic leadership in Congress and Republican leadership in the White House.
So that's an absurdity. The first thing that has to be dealt with is mitigating the foreclosure crisis, period. Secondly, in terms of instilling confidence in the banking system and in our credit markets, the first thing to do is to deal with those institutions that are wildly out of balance, whose balance sheets, frankly, are a joke. And the regulators who should have been tending to them over the years are also a joke.
It's time to end the joke. That means aggressive regulation. It means aggressive intervention on an institution-by-institution basis.
Chetry: All right. Well, they're going to take this up again today, or throughout the week as they try to figure out what the best course of action is. Maybe they should listen to you a little bit more.
Dobbs: They'll be back Thursday.
Chetry: Right.
Dobbs: They'll be back Thursday to try this nonsense all over again,
Goodbye $1 Billion Salary, Hello Campbell Soup
Campbell Soup Co. was the only stock in the S&P 500 that escaped yesterday's historic sell-off. That's right: 499 fell, and just one rose.
Could there be a clearer metaphor for Americans refocusing on the basics after a decade of greed and excess?
That may be a stretch, but clearly the American public is in no mood to bail out the Wall Street gazillionaires responsible for the financial meltdown.
I say no to bail outs on principle. If Bush really believes that government should stay out of big business he'll say the same thing. That is, if he's a man of principle.
Throwing money at people isn't going to save an economy.
America has to start getting back to basics. The national debt is currently $31,700 per person in the US. It's really starting to come down to basic producer-consumer concepts. When we were owed massive amounts of money after the World Wars, it was because we had the capability to mass produce incredible numbers of war supplies. Those jobs are now in India and China. We can't keep being massive consumers without something to show for it. The risky business of trying to milk money out of the economy falls apart when a downturn strikes. Our government isn't built to handle that.
I'm still optimistic. Right now the Middle East has us bending over backwards for oil; in 20 years they will be bending over backwards for water.
QuoteGoodbye $1 Billion Salary, Hello Campbell Soup
Campbell Soup Co. was the only stock in the S&P 500 that escaped yesterday's historic sell-off. That's right: 499 fell, and just one rose.
Could there be a clearer metaphor for Americans refocusing on the basics after a decade of greed and excess?
That may be a stretch, but clearly the American public is in no mood to bail out the Wall Street gazillionaires responsible for the financial meltdown.
because people are stocking up on soup! ;)
Interesting video on the economic crisis...I'm not saying it's 100% accurate, nothing in politics is, but interesting nonetheless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
Some good articles on this mess...
This first one does a good job of explaining how we got here (excerpt below): http://www.reason.com/news/show/129158.html
"...At the same time, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were going through a crisis. In 2003 and 2004, an accounting scandal was revealed. The two public-private partnerships were cooking the books to show phantom profits. The Bush administration and its allies on the Hill pushed a strong bill to reform how these institutions operated. The measure came very close to passing, but Fannie and Freddie cut a deal. They would refocus on expanding mortgages for low-income borrowers if the feds kept out of their operations. The bargain worked. Virtually all the Democrats and a few Republicans backed the two companies and the reform effort failed.
Fannie and Freddie then went on a subprime bender..."
This one talks about why we need to keep our banks afloat ,one way or another: http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12322942
"...It is, indeed, unfair that banks tend to be rescued when they go wrong whereas coal mines and shoe retailers do not. But banks play a key role in oiling the system; they provide the credit that lets the rest of us do business. They also have innate risk, because they lend more money then they have cash in hand. To put it another way, they borrow short and lend long. This has made them the subject of panics throughout history, and those panics have always led to economic turbulence. The authorities can let them go bust, but the risk is depression. Or they can hold their noses and bail them out..."
QuoteSome good articles on this mess...
This first one does a good job of explaining how we got here (excerpt below): http://www.reason.com/news/show/129158.html
"...At the same time, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were going through a crisis. In 2003 and 2004, an accounting scandal was revealed. The two public-private partnerships were cooking the books to show phantom profits. The Bush administration and its allies on the Hill pushed a strong bill to reform how these institutions operated. The measure came very close to passing, but Fannie and Freddie cut a deal. They would refocus on expanding mortgages for low-income borrowers if the feds kept out of their operations. The bargain worked. Virtually all the Democrats and a few Republicans backed the two companies and the reform effort failed.
Fannie and Freddie then went on a subprime bender..."
This one talks about why we need to keep our banks afloat ,one way or another: http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12322942
"...It is, indeed, unfair that banks tend to be rescued when they go wrong whereas coal mines and shoe retailers do not. But banks play a key role in oiling the system; they provide the credit that lets the rest of us do business. They also have innate risk, because they lend more money then they have cash in hand. To put it another way, they borrow short and lend long. This has made them the subject of panics throughout history, and those panics have always led to economic turbulence. The authorities can let them go bust, but the risk is depression. Or they can hold their noses and bail them out..."
the economist is the best source out there--it's probably the most neutral source of info
http://banking.senate.gov/public/_files/latestversionAYO08C32_xml.pdf
here's the plan if anyone wants to read it--pgs 31-36 probably the most important-i'm kind of tired of trying to understand this--so many add ons now
The other day, McCain said that he wouldn't just get rid of pork barrel spending, but he would also release the names of the people responsible for wasting our money...
That was last week. This week, he's voted in favor for this monster of a pork barrel package and tried to pressure his colleagues into doing the same.
This is why I voted for Romney in the primaries.
Ah, you'll love this then Brad. Remember his funny little quip in the first debate about bear DNA research and paternity, well, he voted for that one too.
Govt= Do as we say not as we do.....
It's disgusting, man... We had all of those snakes get on television and say that if their bill wasn't passed in the middle of the night, the United States would cease to exist.
How many days has it been since the first draft was blown out of the water? And America is still intact, and the sun also rises? The United States was doomed to fail if action wasn't taken immediately - but somehow these politicians had the time to turn this bailout into a 400-plus page pork barrel?
Fuck it. I'm gonna go learn myself a trade.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz-d6WPTXa8&feature=related[/media]
on the bright side of the bill--some good pork in there, too--energy saving stuff-tax incentives/ i'm glad you're starting to see mccain's as dirty as the rest of them. he's been dissappointing and i was his biggest fan 8 years ago.
No No, remember he's a maverick! ::)
[size=8]Please not HEAVY tones of sarcasm and disdain[/size]
QuoteNo No, remember he's a maverick! ::)
[size=8]Please not HEAVY tones of sarcasm and disdain[/size]
my wife predicts a spike in dog owners who will name their dog Maverick.
Here's the Maverick! I found him! Save us Tom!
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/bowlofwax/topgun2.jpg)
QuoteHere's the Maverick! I found him! Save us Tom!
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/bowlofwax/topgun2.jpg)
slider, even though he stinks, is very underrated---he was the hottest (cue volleyball scene)
OK, OK, OK, but we won't get fooled again!
[size=14]AIG executives follow bailout with stay at resort[/size]
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_10662927?source=rss
QuoteOK, OK, OK, but we won't get fooled again!
[size=14]AIG executives follow bailout with stay at resort[/size]
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_10662927?source=rss
:-[ :-X
Just talking to my my co-worker and I guess this was an event for independent insurance agents. These are the people that generate the business at the insurance subsidiaries. I don't think this was an event for top employees. The employees there were there to interact with AIG's independent sales (who are not AIG employees). Without these sales AIG has no value. Remember this is not where they lost money--those were the mortgage backed paper--it's still upsetting though.
who's keeping the company death watch?
guess who's next--
http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/09/news/companies/taylor_death_watch.fortune/index.htm?cnn=yes
worse and worse....(sigh)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aP5mpMUORBWM