http://www.mymorningjacket.com/gogo/my-morning-jacket-supports-health-care-reform/
Dear Jim and company,
This just in....who cares what MMJ think about health care reform? What I really care about is your kick ass music. While you are at it, instead of touring or releasing any new music, why don't you tell us your thoughts on the Palestinian Conflict or maybe the situation in Darfur. Seriously though, I could care less what a band thinks about a political issue. If you guys are going to turn into Rage Against the Machine, let me know so I can waste my time elsewhere. I like MMJ for their awesome albums. I love you and your music Jim, but your fanbase can form their own decisions on healthcare in America.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I definitely don't want to start a debate on healthcare, but come on! Posting political opinions on your band website is lame.
Instead, how about update us on what MMJ, the musical group, is doing in regard to your music (which is what we all come to this website for). Thanks Jim!
Yours truly,
Nikkogino
P.S. -- I'm really struggling with what we should do in regards to dealing with North Korea's continued threats. What should I think Jim?
P.P.S. -- You guys have yet to make a bad album (or non-excellent album for that matter). I'm eagerly anticipating news on the next one.
it is kind of weird, at least seeing MMJ do something like it, but it has nothing to do with politics outside of the government being the only body that has the power to change health care in the USA.
its really not all that much different then proceeds from YY's EP going to the animal sanctuary, ticket proceeds going to some foundation, etc.
i dont know, it doesnt really bother me whether I love health care how it is or feel the same way as the boyz.
Who cares about what Nikkogino Part 2 thinks about what MMJ thinks about health care reform?
This thread is lame.
This is My Morning Jacket's website. They can post what they want. If you don't like it get your own website and well see who cares about what you have to say.
I gotta agree with Nikko on this one. I'm pretty sure every single person here already supports some sort of health care reform - sure would be nice to know what the band is up to, though.
QuoteThis thread is lame.
This is My Morning Jacket's website. They can post what they want. If you don't like it get your own website and well see who cares about what you have to say.
I totally agree- I think they can post whatever the heck they feel like it. Heaven forbid that a band supports an issue of some kind. They are letting us know something about them. You say you're not trying to be a jerk- your post drips with sarcasm and is, from the start, negative... you are either not trying hard enough or in actuality, you just are a jerk and can't do anything about it.
It's fine to disagree with the band on any decision they make about giving information- next time- try to do it in a more respectable manner.
Oh this is for you-
http://www.mymorningjacket.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1249232154
You've got to learn to turn your head. I know a lot of people who think bands should stay out of politics. But Jim is a disciple of goodness: before he is a musician. And if he doesn't use his power to get the word to people who may need a nudge, then he is not doing his job-what HE thinks is his job.
They haven't taken a stance on too many issues...and this one is fair in my book. But regardless of whether you agree with them or not, you've got just as much right to turn your head and not pay attention, as they do to take a position on something. Jim thinks it is his civic duty to speak out on this...what are the commonwealth interests in your statement?
Like aMD said...consider your surroundings before firing.
It's not like they are shoving the idea down people's throats. They are just saying "Hey we support this, if you do too go here."
QuotePosting political opinions on your band website is lame.
I have never understood this line of thought. You don't give up your right to free speech when you pick up a guitar. Furthermore, it's really insulting to assume that musicians aren't as well versed on a given topic as anyone else might be. I have always thought that musicians are in an interesting position to speak on political issues; they travel a lot and see what living conditions are like in all different parts of the country (and the world); they meet a lot of different people from all walks of life, and they have a lot of time on the bus to read and educate themselves on different issues. Not saying all musicians are like this, but some certainly are more knowledgeable than the average Joe on certain topics.
No one says you have to agree with the band's position, but I don't understand how it hurts anyone if they express their views on a topic, if only for the purpose of opening up debate. Music is a powerful way to communicate about the human condition, and I kind of think it's a shame if musicians don't use the bully pulpit they're given to express something important.
They're not pushing poorly written policy down anyone's throats. They're encouraging people to get involved and say first "health care is rotten as it stands" and second, either "and your plan sucks! don't use it, it won't help!" or "and your plan is the answer we need, support it!"
Not everyone has a megaphone as loud as a band and there's a difference between campaigning for climate change and to end poverty while you have a 200 truck caravan moving a $40,000,000 stage around Europe, and using the megaphone that has been given to you to say "get involved".
More power to them.
I just don't get why you care. If you don't agree with it, then fine. But really, who gives a shit? Don't look at it.
QuoteWhile you are at it, instead of touring or releasing any new music.....
You people that think they should release an album a year really bug the shit out of me. Don't you think they deserve a little downtime? Really.
If they put out a record, that means they have to tour to support it. THAT means time away from family and close friends. Have you ever played in a touring band? Do you know how hard it is to stay away from the people you love for that long? The road is not a comfortable place to be. Also, I'm sure the guys in the band love each other to death, but spending that much time on the road with each other must take it's toll on their friendship and ability to work with each other.
Do you want them to tour non-stop? That's fine... but don't be surprised when they break up within the next year or so. You can't spend that amount of time with each other and not get on each other's nerves at a certain point. The downtime that they take is probably absolutely necessary to keep the band going. Did you ever think of that?
QuoteQuoteWhile you are at it, instead of touring or releasing any new music.....
You people that think they should release an album a year really bug the shit out of me. Don't you think they deserve a little downtime? Really.
If they put out a record, that means they have to tour to support it. THAT means time away from family and close friends. Have you ever played in a touring band? Do you know how hard it is to stay away from the people you love for that long? The road is not a comfortable place to be. Also, I'm sure the guys in the band love each other to death, but spending that much time on the road with each other must take it's toll on their friendship and ability to work with each other.
Do you want them to tour non-stop? That's fine... but don't be surprised when they break up within the next year or so. You can't spend that amount of time with each other and not get on each other's nerves at a certain point. The downtime that they take is probably absolutely necessary to keep the band going. Did you ever think of that?
A wise man once sang:
Just Hold On Loosely, but don't let go
If you cling too tight babe,
you're gonna lose control
Your baby needs someone to believe in
And a whole lot of space to breathe in
we need a little bit of a laugh in this thread before we continue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uZt-bMuEMc&feature=related
...as you were
QuoteYou people that think they should release an album a year really bug the shit out of me.
We can HOPE, can't we?
QuoteQuoteYou people that think they should release an album a year really bug the shit out of me.
We can HOPE, can't we?
Hope is just foolishness without reasonability
QuoteQuoteQuoteYou people that think they should release an album a year really bug the shit out of me.
We can HOPE, can't we?
Hope is just foolishness without reasonability
What about Change?
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou people that think they should release an album a year really bug the shit out of me.
We can HOPE, can't we?
Hope is just foolishness without reasonability
What about Change?
Change is just cash but with more added shiny
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYou people that think they should release an album a year really bug the shit out of me.
We can HOPE, can't we?
Hope is just foolishness without reasonability
What about Change?
Change is just cash but with more added shiny
;D
Ya'll crack me up. :D
QuoteYa'll crack me up. :D
(http://gentscaninesociety.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/hilarious.jpg)
I love the fact that the band is passionate about more than just music. What do you want? Do you want a group of egotistical bastards who produce C-grade music and don't even look up at the world around them?
Complaining about the website as a platform is pointless since Jim manages to get his opinions out through his interviews (*gasp!*). He's incredibly insightful and even if I don't agree with everything he has to say, it doesn't hurt to learn someone's opinion. To truly understand Jim, MMJ and the music they produce, I think it's best to know everything. Well, okay, not everything. But if that means they support health care reform, Jim wants to adopt a baby from Namibia or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...who really cares?
This world needs more love and less complaining or finger pointing.
Quote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
QuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Just make sure they get dropped off before
Off The Record gets played, cause if there are any canned sweet potatoes laying around they won't last long. I'm just sayin'
QuoteQuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Just make sure they get dropped off before Off The Record gets played, cause if there are any canned sweet potatoes laying around they won't last long. I'm just sayin'
;D
QuoteQuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Just make sure they get dropped off before Off The Record gets played, cause if there are any canned sweet potatoes laying around they won't last long. I'm just sayin'
throwing glow sticks at the stage is one thing- throwing full cans of creamed corn is a completely different story.
although- patrick throws beats at us- maybe we should be able to throw beets back at him!
(http://www.worldcommunitycookbook.org/season/guide/photos/beets.jpg)
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Just make sure they get dropped off before Off The Record gets played, cause if there are any canned sweet potatoes laying around they won't last long. I'm just sayin'
throwing glow sticks at the stage is one thing- throwing full cans of creamed corn is a completely different story.
although- patrick throws beats at us- maybe we should be able to throw beets back at him!
(http://www.worldcommunitycookbook.org/season/guide/photos/beets.jpg)
I hope the next announcement for a special concert where they incorporate a theme is the "high school lunch concert" where everyone is encouraged to wear smocks and start a food fight.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Just make sure they get dropped off before Off The Record gets played, cause if there are any canned sweet potatoes laying around they won't last long. I'm just sayin'
throwing glow sticks at the stage is one thing- throwing full cans of creamed corn is a completely different story.
although- patrick throws beats at us- maybe we should be able to throw beets back at him!
(http://www.worldcommunitycookbook.org/season/guide/photos/beets.jpg)
I hope the next announcement for a special concert where they incorporate a theme is the "high school lunch concert" where everyone is encouraged to wear smocks and start a food fight.
DIG THAT!
QuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Yes it would! There is a classic rock station in my area that sometimes will ask fans to bring canned goods to certain concerts to help support local food drives. That's why I threw that one out there. :)
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Just make sure they get dropped off before Off The Record gets played, cause if there are any canned sweet potatoes laying around they won't last long. I'm just sayin'
throwing glow sticks at the stage is one thing- throwing full cans of creamed corn is a completely different story.
although- patrick throws beats at us- maybe we should be able to throw beets back at him!
(http://www.worldcommunitycookbook.org/season/guide/photos/beets.jpg)
I hope the next announcement for a special concert where they incorporate a theme is the "high school lunch concert" where everyone is encouraged to wear smocks and start a food fight.
DIG THAT!
Food + music = two giant weaknesses for Ky. Please stop talking like this...it's getting hot on this board...
QuoteQuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Yes it would! There is a classic rock station in my area that sometimes will ask fans to bring canned goods to certain concerts to help support local food drives. That's why I threw that one out there. :)
They've done that more than once here in Louisville for Kentucky Harvest.
Or maybe it was the Coalition of Outspoken Socialist Idiot Musicians Against Human Beings Needlessly Dying Fund. ;)
Lovin' the canned food idea.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote...or they ask fans to bring canned goods to the next concert...
I think this would be great anyway.
Yes it would! There is a classic rock station in my area that sometimes will ask fans to bring canned goods to certain concerts to help support local food drives. That's why I threw that one out there. :)
They've done that more than once here in Louisville for Kentucky Harvest.
Or maybe it was the Coalition of Outspoken Socialist Idiot Musicians Against Human Beings Needlessly Dying Fund. ;)
BAHAHAHAHAHA SUCK IT OP!
It makes me sad that there are still fans of My Morning Jacket's music that still don't get what it's all about. I am not trying to be mean here, but it is pathetic that some of you think this is just about music. Have any of you actually listened to the words in these songs? Jim's lyrics are very literal in Evil Urges in terms of supporting this upcoming revolution. Jim isn't performing this godly music for fun, but to change this fucked-up world. I would love to make music, but my best way to get the message out is through writing. Jim just happens to be amazing at making great music, so he uses it as a vehicle to drive the message that people like me support and are getting out every day.
Do I seriously have to educate some people on what is happening in the world? Go online or go ask somebody with a brain about what is about to go down in the United States in the near future.
1. Our money has NO value. ZERO!!! Get off your hipster/poser ass and go educate yourself about the Federal Reserve and find out how they robbed us blind and continue to enslave us.
2. The corporations run this world. If you don't understand how serious this is, then you are fully endoctrinated into the system.
3. Because our currency is worth nothing, we need to push for a health care system that covers everyone. The money is fake anyway, so it doesn't even matter how much "it costs."
4. Once people become more aware to the truth that our government has sold us out to the corporations, we will overthrow everyone in perceived power and have full anarchy or a resource-based economy in which we will thrive beyond the current imagination that has been implanted in us by the school systems.
5. We are about to have a spiritual awakening...an expansion of consciousness on a world-wide scale. Jim is singing about this if you've care to pay attention.
We are in this together, and it is My Morning Jacket's purpose to put out good energy into the world and spread the message to people who still think concepts like love, joy, sharing, peace, enlightenment, and knowledge are still important. I think these things could change the world. I think we can change the world, and that is what bands like MMJ, Arcade Fire, Bright Eyes, and most of the bands we all listen to believe in. That is what the Beatles were saying, and the Clash, and U2. That is the whole purpose of starting a band. To get a message out there so we can change things. We are about to go through a time that makes the 60s look like child's play.
If you don't want these bands to have messages and you want to live the rest of your life in corporate America, then go listen to the Jonas brothers or people from American Idol and get the fuck off of this board. Because you are slowing down the revolution.
Go get a clue, and WAKE UP. Everything you know is wrong and is a lie.
If the band released some sort of EP or live show to go along with this political stance in which some of the proceeds would benefit...would you have such a problem with it????
QuoteIf the band released some sort of EP or live show to go along with this political stance in which some of the proceeds would benefit...would you have such a problem with it????
It's
their money. I think folks should be able to spend their money the way they want to. If that means political benefits, cancer research, or just beer and pizza - I have no problem with it because its none of my business.
Mmmm....beer and Pizza.....
I just gave a lady five dollars and 37 cents and got back a roast beef sandwich, a side salad and a diet coke so I guess it's still worth something.
I still have this plan in my head to brew the greatest beer to mankind and call it "One Big IPA" and then I'm gonna send kegs and kegs of it to the band as quickly as possible and they have to put in their rider "One Big IPA must be made available at each bar at the venue" and then the band can take the proceeds from it and donate it to puppies and rainbows, and anyone who doesn't agree with this plan will be known to have the following three flaws in their life:
They hate puppies
They hate beer
They hate rainbows
Then they'll have to wear a tshirt that says "I hate puppies, beer, and rainbows" and the shirt is going to be sewn from the shedded hair of puppies, be rainbow colored, and pre-stained with beer so they'll smell like a homeless person and wish that someone was donating some money to them to go to the dry cleaners.
QuoteI still have this plan in my head to brew the greatest beer to mankind and call it "One Big IPA" and then I'm gonna send kegs and kegs of it to the band as quickly as possible and they have to put in their rider "One Big IPA must be made available at each bar at the venue" and then the band can take the proceeds from it and donate it to puppies and rainbows, and anyone who doesn't agree with this plan will be known to have the following three flaws in their life:
They hate puppies
They hate beer
They hate rainbows
Then they'll have to wear a tshirt that says "I hate puppies, beer, and rainbows" and the shirt is going to be sewn from the shedded hair of puppies, be rainbow colored, and pre-stained with beer so they'll smell like a homeless person and wish that someone was donating some money to them to go to the dry cleaners.
(http://onefreeinter.net/win.jpg)
QuoteQuoteI still have this plan in my head to brew the greatest beer to mankind and call it "One Big IPA" and then I'm gonna send kegs and kegs of it to the band as quickly as possible and they have to put in their rider "One Big IPA must be made available at each bar at the venue" and then the band can take the proceeds from it and donate it to puppies and rainbows, and anyone who doesn't agree with this plan will be known to have the following three flaws in their life:
They hate puppies
They hate beer
They hate rainbows
Then they'll have to wear a tshirt that says "I hate puppies, beer, and rainbows" and the shirt is going to be sewn from the shedded hair of puppies, be rainbow colored, and pre-stained with beer so they'll smell like a homeless person and wish that someone was donating some money to them to go to the dry cleaners.
(http://onefreeinter.net/win.jpg)
You are sooooo my hero! ;D ;D ;D
QuoteI still have this plan in my head to brew the greatest beer to mankind and call it "One Big IPA" and then I'm gonna send kegs and kegs of it to the band as quickly as possible and they have to put in their rider "One Big IPA must be made available at each bar at the venue" and then the band can take the proceeds from it and donate it to puppies and rainbows, and anyone who doesn't agree with this plan will be known to have the following three flaws in their life:
They hate puppies
They hate beer
They hate rainbows
Then they'll have to wear a tshirt that says "I hate puppies, beer, and rainbows" and the shirt is going to be sewn from the shedded hair of puppies, be rainbow colored, and pre-stained with beer so they'll smell like a homeless person and wish that someone was donating some money to them to go to the dry cleaners.
Will this shirt be available for purchase?
QuoteQuoteI still have this plan in my head to brew the greatest beer to mankind and call it "One Big IPA" and then I'm gonna send kegs and kegs of it to the band as quickly as possible and they have to put in their rider "One Big IPA must be made available at each bar at the venue" and then the band can take the proceeds from it and donate it to puppies and rainbows, and anyone who doesn't agree with this plan will be known to have the following three flaws in their life:
They hate puppies
They hate beer
They hate rainbows
Then they'll have to wear a tshirt that says "I hate puppies, beer, and rainbows" and the shirt is going to be sewn from the shedded hair of puppies, be rainbow colored, and pre-stained with beer so they'll smell like a homeless person and wish that someone was donating some money to them to go to the dry cleaners.
Will this shirt be available for purchase?
Of course! Proceeds will go to giving every homeless dog a juicy steak
QuoteQuoteQuoteI still have this plan in my head to brew the greatest beer to mankind and call it "One Big IPA" and then I'm gonna send kegs and kegs of it to the band as quickly as possible and they have to put in their rider "One Big IPA must be made available at each bar at the venue" and then the band can take the proceeds from it and donate it to puppies and rainbows, and anyone who doesn't agree with this plan will be known to have the following three flaws in their life:
They hate puppies
They hate beer
They hate rainbows
Then they'll have to wear a tshirt that says "I hate puppies, beer, and rainbows" and the shirt is going to be sewn from the shedded hair of puppies, be rainbow colored, and pre-stained with beer so they'll smell like a homeless person and wish that someone was donating some money to them to go to the dry cleaners.
Will this shirt be available for purchase?
Of course! Proceeds will go to giving every homeless dog a juicy steak
socialist! You commie red! NOT IN MY COUNTRY! THESE COLORS DON'T RUN! >:(
just kidding- your dream makes me smile
I just hope the band understands that defending left or the right side of this political paradign is not for the people. They have both increased the size of goverment and infringed on our civil liberties with no end in sight. This health care bill is as dangerous as any other bill that forces the goverment in our lives, maybe more. Just my two cents.
What needs to be done is force the Insurance companies out of making medical decisions and dictating medical care instead of the doctors. Something needs to be done, doing nothing is down right republican ;) :-*...
it think it needs to start w/tort reform---it's not just insurance companies. it's a vicious cycle..the doctors can't afford the ridiculous coverage so they prescribe 10 follow up visits when only 1 is needed, then the insurance company denies it, sticking the member w/the cost. i mean insurance companies are PART of the problem, but only part...i think there's a misconception that the people making the decisions at the insurance companies are paper pushers when many have been practicing doctors for years...that's not ALL insurance companies, but the ones i've had experience with..
i think obama is on to something requiring everyone to be insured (it shouldn't be a CHOICE just like car insurance isn't a choice because in the end, the tax payer pays the bill for NON CHOOSERS just like the illegals or whoever else can't pay); BUT i don't think his plan is good. it needs to be really hacked apart and costs too much for what the long term effects are.
i love it that they 'support health care reform' but to me that's like saying 'support peace and love' ..it's more than other artists are doing and those are great ideas but i am just not so sure about this reform. this one particular issue in general is so convoluted and complicated, it puts a LOT of pressure on a few to pay for the many, which i don't like when in the end, you are not going to get the results you get in say, countries like sweden..
i do appreciate when artists get proactive....i just don't trust congress to really push something good through. if this thing goes through, this will probably be the biggest thing obama does in his admin, if it doesn't, it'll be his biggest blunder, like clinton (unless he has a lewinsky to take the pressure off)
sorry..too wordy. i've been away for the forum for a couple weeks, i guess i was making up for something. just my .02
and doing too much without much thought is downright democratic.
Quoteit think it needs to start w/tort reform---it's not just insurance companies. it's a vicious cycle..the doctors can't afford the ridiculous coverage so they prescribe 10 follow up visits when only 1 is needed, then the insurance company denies it, sticking the member w/the cost. i mean insurance companies are PART of the problem, but only part...i think there's a misconception that the people making the decisions at the insurance companies are paper pushers when many have been practicing doctors for years...that's not ALL insurance companies, but the ones i've had experience with..
i think obama is on to something requiring everyone to be insured (it shouldn't be a CHOICE just like car insurance isn't a choice because in the end, the tax payer pays the bill for NON CHOOSERS just like the illegals or whoever else can't pay); BUT i don't think his plan is good. it needs to be really hacked apart and costs too much for what the long term effects are.
i love it that they 'support health care reform' but to me that's like saying 'support peace and love' ..it's more than other artists are doing and those are great ideas but i am just not so sure about this reform. this one particular issue in general is so convoluted and complicated, it puts a LOT of pressure on a few to pay for the many, which i don't like when in the end, you are not going to get the results you get in say, countries like sweden..
i do appreciate when artists get proactive....i just don't trust congress to really push something good through. if this thing goes through, this will probably be the biggest thing obama does in his admin, if it doesn't, it'll be his biggest blunder, like clinton (unless he has a lewinsky to take the pressure off)
sorry..too wordy. i've been away for the forum for a couple weeks, i guess i was making up for something. just my .02
I'd just like to point out something that you touched on regarding car insurance, a bit to the point of why the current state of affairs is all messed up.
Next time you watch TV, count the number of health insurance commercials trying to get you to "buy" their product vs car insurance.
Then tell me where the hell this "free market" of insurance that is supposedly working "so well".
Personally, I believe one of the flaws is taking the power away from the individual to bargain with the insurance company. People are so desperate for coverage that they take whatever group plan comes with their job. You become a number, not the customer. The agent doesn't know you; they can mess up as much as they want and they know they're not going to "lose" you as a customer unless you die.
When I tried switching my auto insurance to Geico, my current provider cut my rates and increased my benefits to keep me.
That's just my two cents on the situation, aside from the puppy-beer-rainbow theory.
touché my little monkey friend. :)
You gotta love these town hall meetings, the democrats should cease this tactic if they are going to pass this legislation. I don't know what they expect, if you look at the demographic of the meetings, I would say typically 70-80 % of the attendees were bush supporters that currently have insurance or are on medicare.
Obama needs to have more town hall meetings in areas were he gets the most support on this issue, like high un-employment and low income areas, he also needs a better racial mix.
Fear mongoring to your constituents without giving them the knowledge on the issue is not a constructive thing to do when they require them to protest on an issue, it turns into a SHOUTING MATCH that gets tuned out and makes them look unintelligent.
taterbug, i hear that. when i see these clips of people yelling at a podium, i wonder if they really know what they are yelling about. politics as a whole sucks the big one.
Quotetaterbug, i hear that. when i see these clips of people yelling at a podium, i wonder if they really know what they are yelling about. politics as a whole sucks the big one.
No the vast majority of them haven't a clue what is the real issue.
I don't want the government taking this over period. I swear they could screw up a batch of ice cubes.
P.S.: I thoroughly and heartily support and encourage the guys to post whatever they want and value on their website. It is theirs to own just our posts and opinions are our own.
This is a forum. Just like an album playing on your record player is a forum. Just like a mic stand on a stage in front of 20,000 is a forum. The band is merely expressing their opinions, an act which which country promotes. Another act which this country promotes is the turning away and not listening if you don't like what the person has to say.
I for one don't really mind what the band thinks, it will not change my opinions one way or the other. It is interested to learn about their view points, but in my opinion, for me, my amount of caring about it stops there.
I appreciate the bands decision to share their opinions with us, and I appreciate that everyone shares their opinions as well.
I definitely took it as much more of a "here's what we think, if there are any like minded folks out there, here's a website you can go to."
That's all. My two cents.
Regards,
Haldon
My favorite article on the posturings in Washington about Healthcare Insurance Industry Reform ;D:
'Conservatives, Shut Up And Step Aside'
By David Limbaugh
August 11, 2009
The hubris, arrogance and deceit of President Barack Obama and the Democratic leadership are breathtaking. In their maniacal frenzy to assume control over every aspect of our lives through socialized medicine, they are behaving like the thuggish autocrats they have proved themselves to be.
The jig is up on their designs, evidenced by the very contents of the health bill they're promoting. As increasing public awareness has translated into increasing grass-roots opposition to the bill, the Democrats have ratcheted up their bullying tactics and deceit.
Our self-styled bipartisan president is telling his critics to shut up, while his partners in crime, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her colleagues, are calling them un-American and Nazis.
Understand this: The people who are showing up in droves with righteous anger befitting a body politic steeped in a unique liberty tradition are exercising the very type of bottom-up citizen protest and government watchdogging our Founding Fathers envisioned. They are not the artificially driven "AstroTurf" phonies the Democrats are depicting them to be. No, such activities are the province of Alinsky/Obama-type "street organizers" and union thugs enlisted by the administration to discredit these legitimate protests.
It wasn't enough for Pelosi to call us Nazis. She also co-wrote, with House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, an op-ed in USA Today calling us un-American and projecting her own nefarious tactics onto her opposition.
Pelosi and Hoyer accuse the protesters of engaging in "an ugly campaign ... not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue."
They say: "The first fact is that health insurance reform will mean more patient choice. It will allow every American who likes his or her current plan to keep it. And it will free doctors and patients to make the health decisions that make the most sense, not the most profits for insurance companies."
How can these government propaganda ministers sleep at night? They are the ones misrepresenting the legislation and closing their meetings to genuine dissent.
In the first place, it is not "health insurance reform." It is an effort to fundamentally transform the entire health care industry and how decisions are made. Their recent move to euphemize this monstrosity as "insurance reform" is part of their strategy to demonize insurance companies in their ruthless quest to shove this down our throats.
The bill would not allow Americans to keep their plans. It would crowd out and eventually eliminate private care; enormously reduce choice, as well as the quantity and quality of care; and be a fiscal nightmare, as verified by Congressional Budget Office projections. Worst of all, it would further destroy our liberties.
And by Obama's own words, it would decrease doctors' prerogatives over the type of care they provide. He admits he'd control doctors by making their "bundled payments" conditional on their meeting quality standards imposed by an omniscient, omnipotent government, not doctors and their patients.
Pelosi and Hoyer's most laughable claim is that their plan "will stand up to any and all critics."
If that's so, why don't they tell the truth about what's in the bill and truly answer legitimate questions and concerns about it instead of resorting to name-calling and intimidation? If that's so, why is Obama sending out his hired mouthpiece, Linda Douglass, to deny what Obama most clearly said? She protests that his statements promoting a single-payer system were taken out of context and then gives us absolutely no evidence they were. We are just supposed to disbelieve our lying eyes and ears.
It's also disingenuous to argue that in any event, Obama's earlier statements are irrelevant because he says he does not favor a single-payer system today and would protect our right to private care. Again, we have the bill itself, which would phase out private care -- mandatorily -- so the denials are self-evident lies.
Obama isn't delegating all the dirty work to his surrogates. Our pseudo-cool leader himself has become conspicuously unglued. About opponents of his outlandishly reckless agenda, he said that he doesn't "want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking"; he wants "them just to get out of the way so (Democrats) can clean up the mess." He went on, "I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."
He obviously thinks that he has the unilateral right as president, with 53 percent of the vote, to use our money to impoverish and enslave us and destroy our health care and that we have no right even to object. We only get to speak every two years.
Well, this president -- with a faux-messianic wind boomeranging in his face -- has now met his match: an increasingly informed, vigilant, politically engaged and liberty-loving citizenry. And none too soon.
---
COPYRIGHT 2009 CREATORS.COM
that is mostly talking about the House bill, which is awful...the Senate Bill (as of last week) had a better chance of passing and had dems and repubs both working on it. it's cutting out (probably) the employer mandate and a few other things that might further cripple the economy. to get anything passed, obama needs to focus on the REFORM part and cut back on the universal coverage aspects (for the sake of making any change) Also this bill needs to focus more on medicare.
i can't wait till pelosi is out of there. she wants to get something passed, she doesn't care if it's a kidney stone ...at least the Senate has a little more sense ...
MMJ it goes both ways, conservatives are criticizing and liberals are championing things they don't understand.
'Conservatives, Shut Up And Step Aside'
By David Limbaugh
August 11, 2009
Yes, he is rush limbaughs brother, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
QuoteWell, this president -- with a faux-messianic wind boomeranging in his face -- has now met his match: an increasingly informed, vigilant, politically engaged and liberty-loving citizenry. And none too soon.
I'm sorry - but have you actually watched any of the Town Halls?
I just watched a triple feature: Arlen Specter - PA/Pres. Obama/Claire McCaskill - MO
Obama's forum was incredibly civil. But the people screaming at SPecter and McCaskill were far from civil, and more than a few, straight up crazy. THe THird guy I saw ask a question at Specter's town hall said something unintelligible about healthcare and then - I swear to you - "The Koran says all "unbelievers" will be executed. That is why I cannot support Islam." And while Specter kinda stammered... "okay...." people freaking cheered. That's right Specter! Take that! We're coming for you and your Kenyan Witch Doctor Secret Islamic Terrorist Friend! We are so on to you!
We're Informed! We're engaged! We are nothing if not a Liberty Loving People!
And keep your grubby government hands off my Medicare!
McCaskill's was a little better. But the guy holding up the bible saying he would raise hell if his tax dollars ever paid for an abortion was totally unhinged. And she calmly said that there is currently a federal law prohibiting that and there is nothing in any of the bills to change that and he continued to scream "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!"
So. Tax dollars to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians half a world away - no problem. But by all means every tax-paying bible-thumping nut job should stand between a woman and her doctor. That's not undue interference at all. That's patriotism! That's an informed citizenry taking a stand!
Reagan was crazy against Medicare. Big Time. Said we'd all wake up In Communist Red Russia with our healthcare and bread lines and you'd have to regale your kids with stories about when America used to be free.
How'd that turn out again?
*update! just as I finished typing this post a woman shoved another woman at McCaskill's town hall and was escorted out by police. Democracy in action I tell you. Oh it's a beautiful thing.
QuoteBut the guy holding up the bible saying he would raise hell if his tax dollars ever paid for an abortion was totally unhinged. And she calmly said that there is currently a federal law prohibiting that and there is nothing in any of the bills to change that and continued to scream "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!"
So. Tax dollars to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians half a world away - no problem. But by all means every tax-paying bible-thumping nut job should stand between a woman and her doctor. That's not undue interference at all. That's patriotism! That's an informed citizenry taking a stand!
SO your Uncle Sam should be in the embryo and fetus destruction business?
There is language in the legislation providing federal funds for abortions--completely inappropriate. Why would anyone buy any of the politicians' answers at face value when they've basically confessed that they do not have time to read these bills to begin with? It is as if they're all saying "We know what is best for you! Shut up and get out of our way." Well, sorry there is no f'ing way that is going to happen with this issue and don't even get me started on how criminal this "cap and trade" bullshit is--too bad citizens didn't get as involved in that one as they are with this.
QuoteQuoteBut the guy holding up the bible saying he would raise hell if his tax dollars ever paid for an abortion was totally unhinged. And she calmly said that there is currently a federal law prohibiting that and there is nothing in any of the bills to change that and continued to scream "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!"
So. Tax dollars to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians half a world away - no problem. But by all means every tax-paying bible-thumping nut job should stand between a woman and her doctor. That's not undue interference at all. That's patriotism! That's an informed citizenry taking a stand!
SO your Uncle Sam should be in the embryo and fetus destruction business?
SO if you found out that one of the many Iraqis the American government killed was with child, would you be against the war?
QuoteQuoteBut the guy holding up the bible saying he would raise hell if his tax dollars ever paid for an abortion was totally unhinged. And she calmly said that there is currently a federal law prohibiting that and there is nothing in any of the bills to change that and continued to scream "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!"
So. Tax dollars to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians half a world away - no problem. But by all means every tax-paying bible-thumping nut job should stand between a woman and her doctor. That's not undue interference at all. That's patriotism! That's an informed citizenry taking a stand!
SO your Uncle Sam should be in the embryo and fetus destruction business?
There is language in the legislation providing federal funds for abortions--completely inappropriate. Why would anyone buy any of the politicians' answers at face value when they've basically confessed that they do not have time to read these bills to begin with? It is as if they're all saying "We know what is best for you! Shut up and get out of our way." Well, sorry there is no f'ing way that is going to happen with this issue and don't even get me started on how criminal this "cap and trade" bullshit is--too bad citizens didn't get as involved in that one as they are with this.
This is where I think there is a major problem. People aren't well informed. The bill is online. Go and read it. Yeah, it's long -- get over it. At least know what you're talking about and while you're there check out the Hyde Amendment. You don't have to "buy" anything. Through the magical power of the internet you can figure out on your own.
Too many people watch the talking heads on TV and really think that they are in the game for some reason other than personal gain. It's painful to see citizens played so easily (left and right) and hearing them say that they take their vote seriously, but not seriously enough to be well-informed.
If people are this uninformed and so easily swayed (death panels? come on), I'm glad that they didn't get involved in cap n trade. Involvement ought to involve more than the ability to shout slogans.
I love to hear the other side of the story -- other people's take on the things, but what's going on with the health care "reform" is wasteful in the full sense of the word. "I don't want government running my Medicare." "My grandkids are going to pay for this." "This is socialism." "I don't want to become a communist!"
Seriously...it's sad that what will get the headlines are the whacko's and the screamers. Even more sad are the number of younger voters -- the ones I'd stereotyped into being more capable of using and finding information -- that really don't seem to have a clue. Even though it's right there for them.
I am glad that MMJ posted something on their site. I don't think I know a single working musician who does not support the idea of health reform. What? No free speech for musicians?
QuoteQuoteBut the guy holding up the bible saying he would raise hell if his tax dollars ever paid for an abortion was totally unhinged. And she calmly said that there is currently a federal law prohibiting that and there is nothing in any of the bills to change that and continued to scream "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!"
So. Tax dollars to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians half a world away - no problem. But by all means every tax-paying bible-thumping nut job should stand between a woman and her doctor. That's not undue interference at all. That's patriotism! That's an informed citizenry taking a stand!
SO your Uncle Sam should be in the embryo and fetus destruction business?
There is language in the legislation providing federal funds for abortions--completely inappropriate. Why would anyone buy any of the politicians' answers at face value when they've basically confessed that they do not have time to read these bills to begin with? It is as if they're all saying "We know what is best for you! Shut up and get out of our way." Well, sorry there is no f'ing way that is going to happen with this issue and don't even get me started on how criminal this "cap and trade" bullshit is--too bad citizens didn't get as involved in that one as they are with this.
Have you read the bills?
a little background:
The Hyde Amendment:
Every year since 1976, Congress has approved the Hyde Amendment, which bars the use of federal 'Title X' funds to pay for abortions except in cases of rape, incest or endangerment of the woman's life. Although roughly 90 percent of all private insurance plans cover abortion services, there are additional federal mandates barring funds for abortion for women in the military, women using American Indian health services and women covered by government-run insurance plans.That's the law.
*
Last week:
Rep. Mike Pence (R-Indiana) stood on the floor of the U.S. House and argued, as he has previously, that taxpayer dollars should not be distributed to Planned Parenthood of America, a family planning organization that provides abortion services, among many other things.
Though federal law already prohibits federal money from directly funding abortions, Pence argued that all of Planned Parenthood's funding should be stripped no matter what services the money is earmarked for, because funding any part of Planned Parenthood allows the organization to free up other resources to pay for abortions...
The 1,018-page health reform bill currently before the House makes no mention of abortion or any other specific medical services. This has prompted some anti-abortion advocates to claim that the bill contains a
hidden "abortion mandate." ...
U.S. Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA) introduced an amendment that specifically states that abortion coverage cannot be named by any subsequent health benefits advisory board or the Department of Health and Human Services as an essential service.
The language of this amendment effectively destroys any possibility of health care reform containing a "hidden abortion mandate." The Capps amendment, which goes on to make clear that covering abortion services will never be required or prohibited for any health care plan,
maintains the status quo prescribed by the Hyde Amendment. Only certain abortions — in cases of rape, incest or medical necessity, for instance — could be obtained using taxpayer funds.
Under the Capps amendment:
* Abortion coverage would not be part of the required minimum benefits package. In other words, insurers would not be required to offer, or be prohibited from offering, abortion services in order to participate in the exchange.
* The public plan could include abortion coverage, but the cost of the additional coverage could not be paid through public subsidies (tax dollars), only through the premiums paid by the insured. And with private plans in the exchange, again, federal subsidies could not be used for abortion coverage.* Public funding would only be permitted for abortions allowed under the Hyde Amendment — in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger.
* At least one plan in every region must offer full abortion coverage; and one must not.
* Any insurance plan participating in the exchange cannot discriminate against hospitals or other health care facilities (such as Catholic hospitals) that are unwilling to provide abortions.
* The plan will not pre-empt any state laws regarding abortion, such as parental notification laws.
"The goal should be to maintain the current policies," Korzen said. "That Capps amendment accomplishes just that. It specifically prohibits taxpayers' funding of abortions. additionally, interestingly:U.S. Rep. Rosa DeLauro, a Connecticut Democrat who supports abortion rights, partnered to sponsor a bill titled "Preventing Unintended Pregnancies, Reducing the Need for Abortion, and Supporting Parents Act," which creates a national adoption campaign, tax incentives for adoption and increased availability of ultrasound equipment.
Although the bill has been able to attract a wide variety of supporters from both the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" movements, socially conservative activists reject it in part because it provides funding for birth control and comprehensive sex education.
Conservative activists consider emergency contraception, birth control pills and some other contraceptives as equivalent to abortion, leaving little room for compromise. Any health care reform bill that pays for coverage of virtually any women's reproductive health services, regardless of their legality and widespread acceptance, will be morally unacceptable to them.
***
So there you go. Maybe this was just a miscommunication. When I hear "Pro-Life" in these modern times, I understand it to be against elective abortions. Neither the (dominant) House bill nor the (only) Senate bill would allow the use of tax dollars for elective abortions.
If you take issue with a rape and incest victims having access to / receiving abortions, then... well, I guess first of all where was your righteous indignation when Medicaid allowed for them for the last 30 years under 2 Bushes and a Reagan? And this new super scary "Obamacare" does not change anything.
But more to the point, I would love to hear a rational justification for that position.
Same goes for if you consider birth control to be some sort of "abortion service." If so, just get on with it already and declare all women chattel.
Other than that, rest easy. Uncle Sam will not be in the embryo destruction business.
*
Good thing all these plans cover Viagra, though. Whew! That would've been rough.
[size=24]CAMILLE!!! [smiley=vrolijk_26.gif] [smiley=thumbup.gif][/size]
[/b]
Bravo! Well done, Camille.
Don't expect a response from the Fanatic though. When confronted with rational debate he usually disappears for a while.
QuoteIt makes me sad that there are still fans of My Morning Jacket's music that still don't get what it's all about. I am not trying to be mean here, but it is pathetic that some of you think this is just about music. Have any of you actually listened to the words in these songs? Jim's lyrics are very literal in Evil Urges in terms of supporting this upcoming revolution. Jim isn't performing this godly music for fun, but to change this fucked-up world. I would love to make music, but my best way to get the message out is through writing. Jim just happens to be amazing at making great music, so he uses it as a vehicle to drive the message that people like me support and are getting out every day.
Do I seriously have to educate some people on what is happening in the world? Go online or go ask somebody with a brain about what is about to go down in the United States in the near future.
1. Our money has NO value. ZERO!!! Get off your hipster/poser ass and go educate yourself about the Federal Reserve and find out how they robbed us blind and continue to enslave us.
2. The corporations run this world. If you don't understand how serious this is, then you are fully endoctrinated into the system.
3. Because our currency is worth nothing, we need to push for a health care system that covers everyone. The money is fake anyway, so it doesn't even matter how much "it costs."
4. Once people become more aware to the truth that our government has sold us out to the corporations, we will overthrow everyone in perceived power and have full anarchy or a resource-based economy in which we will thrive beyond the current imagination that has been implanted in us by the school systems.
5. We are about to have a spiritual awakening...an expansion of consciousness on a world-wide scale. Jim is singing about this if you've care to pay attention.
We are in this together, and it is My Morning Jacket's purpose to put out good energy into the world and spread the message to people who still think concepts like love, joy, sharing, peace, enlightenment, and knowledge are still important. I think these things could change the world. I think we can change the world, and that is what bands like MMJ, Arcade Fire, Bright Eyes, and most of the bands we all listen to believe in. That is what the Beatles were saying, and the Clash, and U2. That is the whole purpose of starting a band. To get a message out there so we can change things. We are about to go through a time that makes the 60s look like child's play.
If you don't want these bands to have messages and you want to live the rest of your life in corporate America, then go listen to the Jonas brothers or people from American Idol and get the fuck off of this board. Because you are slowing down the revolution.
Go get a clue, and WAKE UP. Everything you know is wrong and is a lie.
"Jim's lyrics are very literal in Evil Urges in terms of supporting this upcoming revolution. Jim isn't performing this godly music for fun, but to change this fucked-up world."
You make him sound like the new Messiah!! Are you sure it's Jim James and not Jim Jones? If I start reading his posts about saving the animals in Woodstcok, the welfare system, and the coming revolution....will I end up as part of some bizarre mass suicide?
Seriously, I do think Nikki has a point with her original post. It strikes me that some bands, as soon as they start getting financial stability, begin side projects, worthy collaborations, benefit CD's of recordings that wouldn't normally see the light of day, start to lose the essence of what they were.
I'm not saying it about MMJ, or more particularly Jim James, at the moment....but heaven forbid we end up with another Bono!!
Maybe the new Messiah needs saving from himself, and Nikki's post might just help!
These are causes he believes in. He would be remiss not to talk about them and raise money for them. Luckily, he lives in a country where freedom of speech is ostensibly protected. You don't have to agree with it, but if anyone who calls themselves American, let alone a Jim James fan, ought to support his right to speak his mind.
Since when do we expect our musicians to be mindless minstrels, only seeing the light of day to entertain us?
I'm sorry if you think Jim's politics interfere with his music, but that's really on you. Jim shouldn't be expected to not donate money to charity or to not speak his mind in interviews or on his website. He is a human being with passions outside of the music world, if you don't like it, find someone willing to be a mindless minstrel for you. There's plenty of them on the Billboard Top 40.
Word. 8-)
QuoteQuoteQuoteBut the guy holding up the bible saying he would raise hell if his tax dollars ever paid for an abortion was totally unhinged. And she calmly said that there is currently a federal law prohibiting that and there is nothing in any of the bills to change that and continued to scream "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!"
So. Tax dollars to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians half a world away - no problem. But by all means every tax-paying bible-thumping nut job should stand between a woman and her doctor. That's not undue interference at all. That's patriotism! That's an informed citizenry taking a stand!
SO your Uncle Sam should be in the embryo and fetus destruction business?
There is language in the legislation providing federal funds for abortions--completely inappropriate. Why would anyone buy any of the politicians' answers at face value when they've basically confessed that they do not have time to read these bills to begin with? It is as if they're all saying "We know what is best for you! Shut up and get out of our way." Well, sorry there is no f'ing way that is going to happen with this issue and don't even get me started on how criminal this "cap and trade" bullshit is--too bad citizens didn't get as involved in that one as they are with this.
Have you read the bills?
a little background:
The Hyde Amendment:
Every year since 1976, Congress has approved the Hyde Amendment, which bars the use of federal 'Title X' funds to pay for abortions except in cases of rape, incest or endangerment of the woman's life. Although roughly 90 percent of all private insurance plans cover abortion services, there are additional federal mandates barring funds for abortion for women in the military, women using American Indian health services and women covered by government-run insurance plans.
That's the law.
*
Last week:
Rep. Mike Pence (R-Indiana) stood on the floor of the U.S. House and argued, as he has previously, that taxpayer dollars should not be distributed to Planned Parenthood of America, a family planning organization that provides abortion services, among many other things. Though federal law already prohibits federal money from directly funding abortions, Pence argued that all of Planned Parenthood's funding should be stripped no matter what services the money is earmarked for, because funding any part of Planned Parenthood allows the organization to free up other resources to pay for abortions...
The 1,018-page health reform bill currently before the House makes no mention of abortion or any other specific medical services. This has prompted some anti-abortion advocates to claim that the bill contains a hidden "abortion mandate."
...
U.S. Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA) introduced an amendment that specifically states that abortion coverage cannot be named by any subsequent health benefits advisory board or the Department of Health and Human Services as an essential service. The language of this amendment effectively destroys any possibility of health care reform containing a "hidden abortion mandate."
The Capps amendment, which goes on to make clear that covering abortion services will never be required or prohibited for any health care plan, maintains the status quo prescribed by the Hyde Amendment. Only certain abortions — in cases of rape, incest or medical necessity, for instance — could be obtained using taxpayer funds.
Under the Capps amendment:
* Abortion coverage would not be part of the required minimum benefits package. In other words, insurers would not be required to offer, or be prohibited from offering, abortion services in order to participate in the exchange.
* The public plan could include abortion coverage, but the cost of the additional coverage could not be paid through public subsidies (tax dollars), only through the premiums paid by the insured. And with private plans in the exchange, again, federal subsidies could not be used for abortion coverage.
* Public funding would only be permitted for abortions allowed under the Hyde Amendment — in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger.
* At least one plan in every region must offer full abortion coverage; and one must not.
* Any insurance plan participating in the exchange cannot discriminate against hospitals or other health care facilities (such as Catholic hospitals) that are unwilling to provide abortions.
* The plan will not pre-empt any state laws regarding abortion, such as parental notification laws.
"The goal should be to maintain the current policies," Korzen said. "That Capps amendment accomplishes just that. It specifically prohibits taxpayers' funding of abortions.
additionally, interestingly:
U.S. Rep. Rosa DeLauro, a Connecticut Democrat who supports abortion rights, partnered to sponsor a bill titled "Preventing Unintended Pregnancies, Reducing the Need for Abortion, and Supporting Parents Act," which creates a national adoption campaign, tax incentives for adoption and increased availability of ultrasound equipment.
Although the bill has been able to attract a wide variety of supporters from both the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" movements, socially conservative activists reject it in part because it provides funding for birth control and comprehensive sex education.
Conservative activists consider emergency contraception, birth control pills and some other contraceptives as equivalent to abortion, leaving little room for compromise. Any health care reform bill that pays for coverage of virtually any women's reproductive health services, regardless of their legality and widespread acceptance, will be morally unacceptable to them.
***
So there you go. Maybe this was just a miscommunication. When I hear "Pro-Life" in these modern times, I understand it to be against elective abortions. Neither the (dominant) House bill nor the (only) Senate bill would allow the use of tax dollars for elective abortions.
If you take issue with a rape and incest victims having access to / receiving abortions, then... well, I guess first of all where was your righteous indignation when Medicaid allowed for them for the last 30 years under 2 Bushes and a Reagan? And this new super scary "Obamacare" does not change anything.
But more to the point, I would love to hear a rational justification for that position.
Same goes for if you consider birth control to be some sort of "abortion service." If so, just get on with it already and declare all women chattel.
Other than that, rest easy. Uncle Sam will not be in the embryo destruction business.
*
Good thing all these plans cover Viagra, though. Whew! That would've been rough.
:) :) :)
in spite of all the 'crazies' at these town hall protests---i also think the democrats only have themselves to blame if this gets debacled...yet again..they pretty much control all 3 branches of govt, even though the bill's online, they haven't done a good job at easing people's fears, all people are thinking is nationalization---which would be a mess for a country this size....they should have learned from hillary's attempts in 93', yet once again pelosi and her cronies are doing a hack job. democrats, champions of free speech, can't really hold these town hall meetings and not hear people's anger, it's a devisive issue...an uninformed electorate is nothing new...i'm a democrat at heart but christ, can they just do something right for once? pelosi should step down, also...
I'd say the fact that we are discussing this, proves that the band's decision to make a post about Health Care was worth while!
Thanks Camille and Nova :) You two responded in articulate and intelligent ways that my boiling blood would not have allowed.
Agreed and agreed nice posts.
Whoa, haven't been around much and missed this thread...looks like I have some reading to do.
Nice one Camille!
MMJ should be proud to have such intelligent, well-spoken fans.
Props.
Got this today--I love it:
The American Medical Association has weighed in on the new health care plan being developed by the Obama Team. The Allergists voted to scratch it, but the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves.
The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the Administration had a lot of nerve.
The Obstetricians felt they were all laboring under a misconception.
Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted.
Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body!" while the Pediatricians said, 'Oh, Grow up!'
The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while the Radiologists could see right through it.
Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow, and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."
The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists were pissed off at the whole idea. The Anesthesiologists thought the idea was a gas, and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.
In the end, the Proctologists won out, leaving the entire decision up to the assholes in Washington.
QuoteQuoteQuoteBut the guy holding up the bible saying he would raise hell if his tax dollars ever paid for an abortion was totally unhinged. And she calmly said that there is currently a federal law prohibiting that and there is nothing in any of the bills to change that and continued to scream "I don't believe you! I don't believe you!"
So. Tax dollars to kill a hundred thousand innocent civilians half a world away - no problem. But by all means every tax-paying bible-thumping nut job should stand between a woman and her doctor. That's not undue interference at all. That's patriotism! That's an informed citizenry taking a stand!
SO your Uncle Sam should be in the embryo and fetus destruction business?
There is language in the legislation providing federal funds for abortions--completely inappropriate. Why would anyone buy any of the politicians' answers at face value when they've basically confessed that they do not have time to read these bills to begin with? It is as if they're all saying "We know what is best for you! Shut up and get out of our way." Well, sorry there is no f'ing way that is going to happen with this issue and don't even get me started on how criminal this "cap and trade" bullshit is--too bad citizens didn't get as involved in that one as they are with this.
Have you read the bills?
a little background:
The Hyde Amendment:
Every year since 1976, Congress has approved the Hyde Amendment, which bars the use of federal 'Title X' funds to pay for abortions except in cases of rape, incest or endangerment of the woman's life. Although roughly 90 percent of all private insurance plans cover abortion services, there are additional federal mandates barring funds for abortion for women in the military, women using American Indian health services and women covered by government-run insurance plans.
That's the law.
*
Last week:
Rep. Mike Pence (R-Indiana) stood on the floor of the U.S. House and argued, as he has previously, that taxpayer dollars should not be distributed to Planned Parenthood of America, a family planning organization that provides abortion services, among many other things. Though federal law already prohibits federal money from directly funding abortions, Pence argued that all of Planned Parenthood's funding should be stripped no matter what services the money is earmarked for, because funding any part of Planned Parenthood allows the organization to free up other resources to pay for abortions...
The 1,018-page health reform bill currently before the House makes no mention of abortion or any other specific medical services. This has prompted some anti-abortion advocates to claim that the bill contains a hidden "abortion mandate."
...
U.S. Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA) introduced an amendment that specifically states that abortion coverage cannot be named by any subsequent health benefits advisory board or the Department of Health and Human Services as an essential service. The language of this amendment effectively destroys any possibility of health care reform containing a "hidden abortion mandate."
The Capps amendment, which goes on to make clear that covering abortion services will never be required or prohibited for any health care plan, maintains the status quo prescribed by the Hyde Amendment. Only certain abortions — in cases of rape, incest or medical necessity, for instance — could be obtained using taxpayer funds.
Under the Capps amendment:
* Abortion coverage would not be part of the required minimum benefits package. In other words, insurers would not be required to offer, or be prohibited from offering, abortion services in order to participate in the exchange.
* The public plan could include abortion coverage, but the cost of the additional coverage could not be paid through public subsidies (tax dollars), only through the premiums paid by the insured. And with private plans in the exchange, again, federal subsidies could not be used for abortion coverage.
* Public funding would only be permitted for abortions allowed under the Hyde Amendment — in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger.
* At least one plan in every region must offer full abortion coverage; and one must not.
* Any insurance plan participating in the exchange cannot discriminate against hospitals or other health care facilities (such as Catholic hospitals) that are unwilling to provide abortions.
* The plan will not pre-empt any state laws regarding abortion, such as parental notification laws.
"The goal should be to maintain the current policies," Korzen said. "That Capps amendment accomplishes just that. It specifically prohibits taxpayers' funding of abortions.
additionally, interestingly:
U.S. Rep. Rosa DeLauro, a Connecticut Democrat who supports abortion rights, partnered to sponsor a bill titled "Preventing Unintended Pregnancies, Reducing the Need for Abortion, and Supporting Parents Act," which creates a national adoption campaign, tax incentives for adoption and increased availability of ultrasound equipment.
Although the bill has been able to attract a wide variety of supporters from both the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" movements, socially conservative activists reject it in part because it provides funding for birth control and comprehensive sex education.
Conservative activists consider emergency contraception, birth control pills and some other contraceptives as equivalent to abortion, leaving little room for compromise. Any health care reform bill that pays for coverage of virtually any women's reproductive health services, regardless of their legality and widespread acceptance, will be morally unacceptable to them.
***
So there you go. Maybe this was just a miscommunication. When I hear "Pro-Life" in these modern times, I understand it to be against elective abortions. Neither the (dominant) House bill nor the (only) Senate bill would allow the use of tax dollars for elective abortions.
If you take issue with a rape and incest victims having access to / receiving abortions, then... well, I guess first of all where was your righteous indignation when Medicaid allowed for them for the last 30 years under 2 Bushes and a Reagan? And this new super scary "Obamacare" does not change anything.
But more to the point, I would love to hear a rational justification for that position.
Same goes for if you consider birth control to be some sort of "abortion service." If so, just get on with it already and declare all women chattel.
Other than that, rest easy. Uncle Sam will not be in the embryo destruction business.
*
Good thing all these plans cover Viagra, though. Whew! That would've been rough.
Here ya go:
Fact: The bill as currently written will allow the federal government to classify abortion as an "essential benefit" — a health-care right that would be guaranteed to all Americans. This will make it illegal for health-care providers nationwide — even Catholic and religious-based hospitals with missions that reflect a fundamental moral objection to the killing of the unborn — to provide anything less than abortion on demand for anyone who seeks it. As a result, the bill will repeal laws in many states that currently require commonsense limitations on abortion-on-demand, such as mandatory parental notification and waiting periods.
As a matter of legal precedent in this country, it is illegal to interfere with a woman's ability to get an abortion, so I'm not sure how this really changes this. The bill still does not say that a hospital or provider cannot reasonably discourage, inform, or educate a woman before she gets an abortion. The legal standard is that they may not provide any substantial or burdensome obstacle to getting that abortion, such as a ridiculous waiting period.
Thanks to prophylactics the courts have established a right to privacy in the constitution regardless of the actual words not being there. As a result, no matter how much Congress woudl like to interfere with this, any government plan would instantly be challenged in the courts and likely eviscerated to the point where it no longer interferes.
In the long run, I believe that any such program is likely to be only very basic and perhaps easier to use since as a matter of constitutionality the federal government cannot pry into our lives in the same way a private entity could.
QuoteQuote
Have you read the bills?
a little background:
The Hyde Amendment:
Every year since 1976, Congress has approved the Hyde Amendment, which bars the use of federal 'Title X' funds to pay for abortions except in cases of rape, incest or endangerment of the woman's life. Although roughly 90 percent of all private insurance plans cover abortion services, there are additional federal mandates barring funds for abortion for women in the military, women using American Indian health services and women covered by government-run insurance plans.
That's the law.
*
Last week:
Rep. Mike Pence (R-Indiana) stood on the floor of the U.S. House and argued, as he has previously, that taxpayer dollars should not be distributed to Planned Parenthood of America, a family planning organization that provides abortion services, among many other things. Though federal law already prohibits federal money from directly funding abortions, Pence argued that all of Planned Parenthood's funding should be stripped no matter what services the money is earmarked for, because funding any part of Planned Parenthood allows the organization to free up other resources to pay for abortions...
The 1,018-page health reform bill currently before the House makes no mention of abortion or any other specific medical services. This has prompted some anti-abortion advocates to claim that the bill contains a hidden "abortion mandate."
...
U.S. Rep. Lois Capps (D-CA) introduced an amendment that specifically states that abortion coverage cannot be named by any subsequent health benefits advisory board or the Department of Health and Human Services as an essential service. The language of this amendment effectively destroys any possibility of health care reform containing a "hidden abortion mandate."
The Capps amendment, which goes on to make clear that covering abortion services will never be required or prohibited for any health care plan, maintains the status quo prescribed by the Hyde Amendment. Only certain abortions — in cases of rape, incest or medical necessity, for instance — could be obtained using taxpayer funds.
Under the Capps amendment:
* Abortion coverage would not be part of the required minimum benefits package. In other words, insurers would not be required to offer, or be prohibited from offering, abortion services in order to participate in the exchange.
* The public plan could include abortion coverage, but the cost of the additional coverage could not be paid through public subsidies (tax dollars), only through the premiums paid by the insured. And with private plans in the exchange, again, federal subsidies could not be used for abortion coverage.
* Public funding would only be permitted for abortions allowed under the Hyde Amendment — in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger.
* At least one plan in every region must offer full abortion coverage; and one must not.
* Any insurance plan participating in the exchange cannot discriminate against hospitals or other health care facilities (such as Catholic hospitals) that are unwilling to provide abortions.
* The plan will not pre-empt any state laws regarding abortion, such as parental notification laws.
"The goal should be to maintain the current policies," Korzen said. "That Capps amendment accomplishes just that. It specifically prohibits taxpayers' funding of abortions.
additionally, interestingly:
U.S. Rep. Rosa DeLauro, a Connecticut Democrat who supports abortion rights, partnered to sponsor a bill titled "Preventing Unintended Pregnancies, Reducing the Need for Abortion, and Supporting Parents Act," which creates a national adoption campaign, tax incentives for adoption and increased availability of ultrasound equipment.
Although the bill has been able to attract a wide variety of supporters from both the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" movements, socially conservative activists reject it in part because it provides funding for birth control and comprehensive sex education.
Conservative activists consider emergency contraception, birth control pills and some other contraceptives as equivalent to abortion, leaving little room for compromise. Any health care reform bill that pays for coverage of virtually any women's reproductive health services, regardless of their legality and widespread acceptance, will be morally unacceptable to them.
***
So there you go. Maybe this was just a miscommunication. When I hear "Pro-Life" in these modern times, I understand it to be against elective abortions. Neither the (dominant) House bill nor the (only) Senate bill would allow the use of tax dollars for elective abortions.
If you take issue with a rape and incest victims having access to / receiving abortions, then... well, I guess first of all where was your righteous indignation when Medicaid allowed for them for the last 30 years under 2 Bushes and a Reagan? And this new super scary "Obamacare" does not change anything.
But more to the point, I would love to hear a rational justification for that position.
Same goes for if you consider birth control to be some sort of "abortion service." If so, just get on with it already and declare all women chattel.
Other than that, rest easy. Uncle Sam will not be in the embryo destruction business.
*
Good thing all these plans cover Viagra, though. Whew! That would've been rough.
Here ya go:
Fact: The bill as currently written will allow the federal government to classify abortion as an "essential benefit" — a health-care right that would be guaranteed to all Americans. This will make it illegal for health-care providers nationwide — even Catholic and religious-based hospitals with missions that reflect a fundamental moral objection to the killing of the unborn — to provide anything less than abortion on demand for anyone who seeks it. As a result, the bill will repeal laws in many states that currently require commonsense limitations on abortion-on-demand, such as mandatory parental notification and waiting periods.
For f*cks sake.
Did you even bother to read the thing "quoted"?
I'm not kidding. This is... I can't even... this is why this will never end. Because stupid salacious made-up talking points will always attract more people than wonky, fact-based, policy discussion.
You are wrong. You are 100% wrong. You are soul-crushingly, eye-gougingly, wail for the fate of humanity in this godforsaken country WRONG.
Under the Capps amendment:
* Abortion coverage would not be part of the required minimum benefits package. In other words, insurers would not be required to offer, or be prohibited from offering, abortion services in order to participate in the exchange.
* The public plan could include abortion coverage, but the cost of the additional coverage could not be paid through public subsidies (tax dollars), only through the premiums paid by the insured. And with private plans in the exchange, again, federal subsidies could not be used for abortion coverage.
* Public funding would only be permitted for abortions allowed under the Hyde Amendment — in cases of rape, incest or when the mother's life is in danger.
* At least one plan in every region must offer full abortion coverage; and one must not.
* Any insurance plan participating in the exchange cannot discriminate against hospitals or other health care facilities (such as Catholic hospitals) that are unwilling to provide abortions.
* The plan will not pre-empt any state laws regarding abortion, such as parental notification laws.
"The goal should be to maintain the current policies," Korzen said. "That Capps amendment accomplishes just that. It specifically prohibits taxpayers' funding of abortions.I understand how over-the-top rude my language has been in this post. But this whole healthcare debate is, in fact, a life and death crisis for millions of people in this country. There are many legitimate things to debate - how to pay for it being right at the top, but the rest of this - the straight up LIES coming out of the right's smear campaign are so revolting they should be illegal. Slander laws should apply. And you are a part of that.
You've never known a family that's been bankrupted by medical costs? You have no relatives who have a hard time paying for their prescriptions? Is there a reason you have such a love for your corporate insurer? Have you ever been in a county emergency room? Do you understand the staggering numbers of kids in this country who have no access to primary health care - setting them up for a lifetime of chronic problems? Do you have anything factual to add to this discussion at all? Anything?
No, you're right. The big scary black man's trying to pull the plug on your grandma. And free abortions for all!
Yep. That was easier.
Top 10 Reasons Obamacare Is Wrong for America
1) Millions Will Lose Their Current Insurance. Period. End of Story: President Obama wants Americans to believe they can keep their insurance if they like, but research from the government, private research firms, and think tanks show this is not the case. Proposed economic incentives, plus a government-run health plan like the one proposed in the House bill, would cause 88.1 million people to see their current employer-sponsored health plan disappear.
2) Your Health Care Coverage Will Probably Change Anyway: Even if you kept your private insurance, eventually most remaining plans--whether employer plans or individual plans--would have to conform to new federal benefit standards. Moreover, the necessary plan "upgrades" will undoubtedly cost you more in premiums.
3) The Umpire Is Also the First Baseman: The main argument for a "public option" is that it would increase competition. However, if the federal government creates a health care plan that it controls and also sets the rules for the private plans, there is little doubt that Washington would put its private sector "competitors" out of business sooner or later.
4) The Fed Picks Your Treatment: President Obama said: "They're going to have to give up paying for things that don't make them healthier. ... If there's a blue pill and a red pill, and the blue pill is half the price of the red pill and works just as well, why not pay half for the thing that's going to make you well." Does that sound like a government that will stay out of your health care decisions?
5) Individual Mandate Means Less Liberty and More Taxes: Although he once opposed the idea, President Obama is now open to the imposition of an individual mandate that would require all Americans to have federally approved health insurance. This unprecedented federal directive not only takes away your individual freedom but could cost you as well. Lawmakers are considering a penalty or tax for those who don't buy government-approved health plans.
6) Higher Taxes Than Europe Hurt Small Businesses: A proposed surtax on the wealthy will actually hit hundreds of thousands of small business ownerswho are dealing with a recession. If it is enacted, America's top earners and job creators will carry a larger overall tax burden than France, Italy, Germany, Japan, etc., with a total average tax rate greater than 52%. Is that the right recipe for jobs and wage growth?
7) Who Makes Medical Decisions? What is the right medical treatment and should bureaucrats determine what Americans can or cannot have? While the House and Senate language is vague, amendments offered in House and Senate committees to block government rationing of care were routinely defeated. Cost or a federal health board could be the deciding factors. President Obama himself admitted this when he said, "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller," when asked about an elderly woman who needed a pacemaker.
8) Taxpayer-Funded Abortions? Nineteen Democrats recently asked the President to not sign any bill that doesn't explicitly exclude "abortion from the scope of any government-defined or subsidized health insurance plan" or any bill that allows a federal health board to "recommend abortion services be included under covered benefits or as part of a benefits package." Currently, these provisions do not exist.
9) It's Not Paid For: The CBO says the current House plan would increase the deficit by $239 billion over 10 years. And that number will likely continue to rise over the long term. Similar entitlement bills in the past, including Medicare, have scored much lower than their actual eventual cost.
10) Rushing It, Not Reading It: We've been down this road before--with the failed stimulus package. Back then, we also heard that we were in a crisis and that we needed to pass a 1,000-plus-page bill in a few hours--without reading it--or we would have 8% unemployment. Well, we know what happened. Now, one Congressman has even said it's pointless to read one of the reform bills without two days and two lawyers to make sense of it. Deception is the only reason to rush through a bill nobody truly understands.
For more information, please visit: http://FixHealthCarePolicy.com
"the straight up LIES coming out of the right's smear campaign are so revolting they should be illegal. Slander laws should apply"
Pretty sure their is a large amount of bullshit coming from both sides. That's what makes this so unnerving, who do you believe? the right, who seem to be bent on slamming this bill? or the left- champions of free speech ( peoples party) yet wanting to ban a meeting of citizens speaking out against their bill? the left has said spewed as much ill timed trash as the right. lets keep in mind how disjointed both parties are before we make blanket statements based on what bill o'reilly or bill maher deem correct.
This thread never got going :-/
The only thing messed up about this plan is that it will be expensive in less-realized way because it is such a patchwork of ideas and people are focused more on silencing those who disagree because they generalize those who disagree as misinformed ignorants who hate poor people. Because about 5% of them are.
If we pass bullshit legislation that no one reads or fine tunes because they're pre-occupied with other bullshit, no one is really taking into account the sheer volume of litigation and the costs that will be associated with it as a result. You think the birthers went to an extreme with their court cases? Just wait until this passes. Makes me want to switch my focus from Digital Rights management to health law and be guaranteed future employment
I think camille is an alias for someone else...she steps in for politcal discussions, owns us all, and then bounces. I remember her from when Prop. 8 was the topic. Camille, you're awesome.
Alright, now I really need to read this thread.
QuoteI think camille is an alias for someone else...she steps in for politcal discussions, owns us all, and then bounces. I remember her from when Prop. 8 was the topic. Camille, you're awesome.
Alright, now I really need to read this thread.
I think you're right, bbill. Good for her. Sometimes truthtellers must wear many veils.
I hope things work out for all Americans regarding health care. I can't imagine living without universal health care and I beg of you to not believe the anti-Canadian health care rhetoric spewing forth from the right-wing media and some Republicans and Democrats; it's offensive, ignorant and just plain wrong.
Obama is right when he says Canadian/British/French styled universal health care wouldn't work in the US. I think it would be a mess if he ever tried to adapt the Canadian health care model and apply it to all the US states. For one, the US medical association is big business. Good luck. I find most of the health care discussions fascinating, and quite frankly, a little frightening.
Who is this Camille lady? I think I love her.
Anyway, canned food drives! Yay. I have a friend who does something similar for another band...just started out doing canned food drives at shows and donating proceeds to the local food pantries...and it's mushroomed into thousands of dollars in donations to the bands' favorite charities over the past three or four years.
We should think about forming a similar organization for the Jacket; a fan-based 501(c)(3). Anyone into it?
MMJ,
This is your website, and you can obviously do whatever you want. That's cool that you want health care reform. I want some kind of health care reform too. But when your views differ from mine, it gets me wrapped up in politics and such, when I only want to be wrapped up in the music.
If you started a campaign in support of killing puppies, I would not be able to listen to MMJ without feeling a little bit horrible. My MMJ t-shirt would cease being a badge of honor, and start being a symbol of puppy slaughter.
I guess what I am saying is... If you are going to kill puppies, please don't tell me about it.
Sincerely,
Chico
QuoteWho is this Camille lady? I think I love her.
Me too :-*
I for one, can only speak from a personal point of view. As a small, independent business owner, me and my biz partner feel it is a moral obligation to provide our employees with health benefits. We ask that they contribute a very small amount (tax deferred) from their paycheck. But the rest is on the biz's shoulders. There is no law saying that a business our size has to do this. Again, it is a moral issue to make sure that those who give to our organization are taken care of. However, the ridiculous insurance premium rate increases are making us question the viability of offering it at all. We are doing fine in this economic times, but we can't keep up with the crazy 20% yearly increases! we had to change carriers this year just to keep it steady. And we don't know what we can do next year if this trend continues. It forces small businesses to function with part-time employees who do not qualify for coverage (one must average at least 35 hours a week). Well that doesn't help my lovely employees who depend on us to make their income. So what do we do? Insurance overhaul is necessary. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a fool or purely misinformed. The optimist in me thinks it is the latter. Get over the "socialism" propaganda. If ya' read the bill, you would see this won't turn us into communists. It will help our fellow Americans.
But I guess if our representatives (ehem...Newt Gingrich) feel that reading a 1000 page bill is a ridiculous request of their constituents, well someone needs to get fired. Stop buying into the propaganda of those who feel it is unnecessary to read the bills to understand them. Last time I checked, it was part of their job description.
Oh, and MMJ has every right to stand by their convictions. Check the 1st amendment.
I wonder who funds fixhealthcarepolicy.com?
I think this may shed light, but's it's only wiki, so, take it for what it's worth. Me? I have wine to drink.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation
wow! to just jump on the forum and see all the political discussion is amazing, to say the least! I thought MMJ had music to talk about.
I guess I should have clarified in that last post that I am not Chico....just his better half. But wow......not loving the format of the forum thus far.
I'm not liking your posting style so far. If you wanna talk about music and not politics how come you posted in one of the few politics threads and not one of the many music threads?
And I like how your first posts lecture the band and the fans about what they should be talking about. How about leading by example? And how about registering a new name so you don't wreck your better half's rep around here.
wizzard----i think a key to this legislation are the Blue Dog Democrats working on this--they've got the small business owners in mind and in spite of Pelosi trying to shove a piece of fragmented sh*t through, they are actually working w/repubs trying to create something good. more of these fiscally conservative dems could woo some moderates back to the party...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124865363472782519.html
http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14140214
Quote
And I like how your first posts lecture the band and the fans about what they should be talking about. How about leading by example? And how about registering a new name so you don't wreck your better half's rep around here.
Arg!!! Ok, the first post was Chico (me). The next two were wifey.
AMD, not trying to lecture anyone. Just expressing one fan's opinions to the band. Simply stated, I prefer my favorite band not tread too far down the political path. It can be a slippery slope.
Now excuse me while I go scold wifey for making me look like a schizophrenic.
QuoteQuote
And I like how your first posts lecture the band and the fans about what they should be talking about. How about leading by example? And how about registering a new name so you don't wreck your better half's rep around here.
Arg!!! Ok, the first post was Chico (me). The next two were wifey.
AMD, not trying to lecture anyone. Just expressing one fan's opinions to the band. Simply stated, I prefer my favorite band not tread to far down the political path. It can be a slippery slope.
Now excuse me while I go scold wifey for making me look like a schizophrenic.
Eventually, all bands seem to get political, at least the ones that have shreds of intellect. I'm not surprised Jimmy and company have gotten political, but I wasn't expecting them to get involved with the sticky subject known as health care reform.
No biggie. You may want to explain to the wife that there is plenty of music talk on this board. We hardly ever get into politics around here unless an election is coming up or the band releases a political statement or donates money to political charities/causes. We have more threads about the Black Cab Sessions video than politics threads in total, I bet. not that there's anything wrong with discussing politics IMO, you just might want to point that out.
Really interesting debate for my second post. We've got your debate over here in the UK here with the more deranged members of the opposition popping up on Fre'um Channel Fox dissing our Free at the Point of Delivery, Universal Health Service. And contrary to all propaganda the NHS in the UK has not turned me into a terr'st (well apart from the Sandinista Service I put in in the 80s and that depends on your defintion of terr'sm). They do not inject us with tracts of Das Kapital or make us do Tai Chi on the lawns of Buckingham every morning here in the UK. Not at the Hospital I work at anyway. We just try to do our best for everyone now matter their status - and it sticks in my craw that those that can afford better get preference. Everyone should have the best available treatment.
The point of the NHS in the UK was to take it outside of the political arena and guarantee everyone a cradle to grave health service. Now our political masters here are turning to your system to break up my Family Silver (again). So I'm with MMJ on this one. It's a principled stand for those less fortunate than ourselves on an issue that directly affects all of us. I'm glad I'm into this band.
I staunchly oppose any further government involvement in health care. That said, I understand why one would use whatever channels available to further their stance on issues they feel passionate about.
That is all.
QuoteReally interesting debate for my second post. We've got your debate over here in the UK here with the more deranged members of the opposition popping up on Fre'um Channel Fox dissing our Free at the Point of Delivery, Universal Health Service. And contrary to all propaganda the NHS in the UK has not turned me into a terr'st (well apart from the Sandinista Service I put in in the 80s and that depends on your defintion of terr'sm). They do not inject us with tracts of Das Kapital or make us do Tai Chi on the lawns of Buckingham every morning here in the UK. Not at the Hospital I work at anyway. We just try to do our best for everyone now matter their status - and it sticks in my craw that those that can afford better get preference. Everyone should have the best available treatment.
The point of the NHS in the UK was to take it outside of the political arena and guarantee everyone a cradle to grave health service. Now our political masters here are turning to your system to break up my Family Silver (again). So I'm with MMJ on this one. It's a principled stand for those less fortunate than ourselves on an issue that directly affects all of us. I'm glad I'm into this band.
well that's the catch, not all Americans believe that...the philosophy that health care should be for FREE and universal, regardless of what you contribute. some people believe you should have to pay for it, ....once you get past that issue (you really never will), the rest is all logistics. i don't think it's so much that we think Canada, the UK and Sweden and various other countries have a lesser quality of care, there's that fundamental difference in values.
I just hope to see a clear line drawn between "health services" and "insurance"
Let's get back on track...I didn't want a political discussion on health care. That's for another forum. I mainly wanted to discuss the act of bands telling us to go out and support a partisan cause that not only alienates fans, but defeats the purpose of going to a band website as "refreshment" from politics and the like.
If Jim posted on the website: "The world needs religion. We are way off track in the world and the only way to get back on track is to become spiritual again. And when I say spiritual, I mean spiritual in the Christian way. That's right...MMJ supports Christianity! We believe that Christianity is the way to go....it is a peaceful religion and I think you'd all be better off if you'd come with us and worship Christ. Go to the link below and join!
www.jesuschristismysaviorandheshouldbeyourstoo.com"
Would you support? Would you be glad that he was "passionate" about something?
QuoteLet's get back on track...I didn't want a political discussion on health care. That's for another forum. I mainly wanted to discuss the act of bands telling us to go out and support a partisan cause that not only alienates fans, but defeats the purpose of going to a band website as "refreshment" from politics and the like.
If Jim posted on the website: "The world needs religion. We are way off track in the world and the only way to get back on track is to become spiritual again. And when I say spiritual, I mean spiritual in the Christian way. That's right...MMJ supports Christianity! We believe that Christianity is the way to go....it is a peaceful religion and I think you'd all be better off if you'd come with us and worship Christ. Go to the link below and join!
www.jesuschristismysaviorandheshouldbeyourstoo.com"
Would you support? Would you be glad that he was "passionate" about something?
Generally speaking, no. Thematic underpinnings of lyrics and the politics of a band do have much to do with my interest in them. Hence I am surprised by your expressed distaste when their likely political leanings were rather obvious through the years though they are expressed less subtly now with their greater exposure.
I gotta believe Rush might be the only band that I love where I likely have multiple issues with their political stances.
Im not going to read thru this entire thread, but I am SO happy I quit looking in this thread after 2 days.
100 posts in 2 weeks just sounds like trouble and arguments.
QuoteLet's get back on track...I didn't want a political discussion on health care. That's for another forum. I mainly wanted to discuss the act of bands telling us to go out and support a partisan cause that not only alienates fans, but defeats the purpose of going to a band website as "refreshment" from politics and the like.
If Jim posted on the website: "The world needs religion. We are way off track in the world and the only way to get back on track is to become spiritual again. And when I say spiritual, I mean spiritual in the Christian way. That's right...MMJ supports Christianity! We believe that Christianity is the way to go....it is a peaceful religion and I think you'd all be better off if you'd come with us and worship Christ. Go to the link below and join!
www.jesuschristismysaviorandheshouldbeyourstoo.com"
Would you support? Would you be glad that he was "passionate" about something?
I would be against what they are saying- I would not agree with them. I would however, accept that they are exercising their rights as humans to support their beliefs.
QuoteLet's get back on track...I didn't want a political discussion on health care. That's for another forum. I mainly wanted to discuss the act of bands telling us to go out and support a partisan cause that not only alienates fans, but defeats the purpose of going to a band website as "refreshment" from politics and the like.
If Jim posted on the website: "The world needs religion. We are way off track in the world and the only way to get back on track is to become spiritual again. And when I say spiritual, I mean spiritual in the Christian way. That's right...MMJ supports Christianity! We believe that Christianity is the way to go....it is a peaceful religion and I think you'd all be better off if you'd come with us and worship Christ. Go to the link below and join!
www.jesuschristismysaviorandheshouldbeyourstoo.com"
Would you support? Would you be glad that he was "passionate" about something?
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it".
QuoteQuoteI gotta believe Rush might be the only band that I love where I likely have multiple issues with their political stances.
Such as?
such as Neil Peart's objectivist stance and love of Ayn Rand (this would have been the point where Tracy yelled at me :-( )
QuoteQuoteQuoteI gotta believe Rush might be the only band that I love where I likely have multiple issues with their political stances.
Such as?
such as Neil Peart's objectivist stance and love of Ayn Rand (this would have been the point where Tracy yelled at me :-( )
Without getting too into the Objectivist shit...
Ayn Rand believed in individual rights and most importantly the concept of individual responsibility.....not allowing government to do everything for you. Don't necessarily see what is wrong with that. Unless you believe that a person has the right to be a piece of shit and be given a handout.
QuoteQuoteWithout getting too into the Objectivist shit...
Ayn Rand believed in individual rights and most importantly the concept of individual responsibility.....not allowing government to do everything for you. Don't necessarily see what is wrong with that. Unless you believe that a person has the right to be a piece of shit and be given a handout.
Oh if only the world were that black and white. But it's not, is it?
I didn't say it was. But we are beginning to lose our sense of accountability it seems. Whether it be parenting or being accountable for your checkbook, it seems that people are becoming more and more dependent on an outside force to help them. I understand that there are people in this country that need help...the system is clogged with bottomfeeders who work the system and depend on the people who bust their ass for a living to provide a paycheck. I am definitely aware that things are more complicated than Ayn Rand's view of the three types of people (people who are great, people who know greatness but know they can't achieve it, and people who don't know greatness and don't know how to achieve it). But I think we all need a dose of independence. Stop complaining about being wronged and do something about it.
I think the main problem in this country right now is that everyone thinks they deserve luxuries. Even homeless people have i-phones these days. People go out, buy shit they can't afford, and then wonder why their lives suck so bad. We need to educate people on the difference between needs and wants.
Note: I've been rocking an old-school kyocera cell phone for the last 4 years because I make a serious effort to manage my money in order to buy important things like--- health insurance, house payment, etc. My cell phone makes calls and makes texts. I can live without the other UNNECESSARY (but flashy) extras.
To do this, I drive a shitty ass truck because it still works. I don't go out and buy $200 sneakers. I don't blow my paycheck on jewelery. It's called responsibility.
Status is not having a car you can't afford, or a cell phone with internet, or a chain that weighs 900 lbs. Status and self-pride should be on putting food on your table and buying insurance to anticipate a medical emergency.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. Their are millions of Americans who don't have health insurance because they choose to spend their money elsewhere. Of course, this hurts those who really need help. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens when you cater to those who have no reason to be responsible for their own well-being and depend on you and I to foot the bill.
QuoteQuoteQuoteWithout getting too into the Objectivist shit...
Ayn Rand believed in individual rights and most importantly the concept of individual responsibility.....not allowing government to do everything for you. Don't necessarily see what is wrong with that. Unless you believe that a person has the right to be a piece of shit and be given a handout.
Oh if only the world were that black and white. But it's not, is it?
I didn't say it was. But we are beginning to lose our sense of accountability it seems. Whether it be parenting or being accountable for your checkbook, it seems that people are becoming more and more dependent on an outside force to help them. I understand that there are people in this country that need help...the system is clogged with bottomfeeders who work the system and depend on the people who bust their ass for a living to provide a paycheck. I am definitely aware that things are more complicated than Ayn Rand's view of the three types of people (people who are great, people who know greatness but know they can't achieve it, and people who don't know greatness and don't know how to achieve it). But I think we all need a dose of independence. Stop complaining about being wronged and do something about it.
I think the main problem in this country right now is that everyone thinks they deserve luxuries. Even homeless people have i-phones these days. People go out, buy shit they can't afford, and then wonder why their lives suck so bad. We need to educate people on the difference between needs and wants.
Note: I've been rocking an old-school kyocera cell phone for the last 4 years because I make a serious effort to manage my money in order to buy important things like--- health insurance, house payment, etc. My cell phone makes calls and makes texts. I can live without the other UNNECESSARY (but flashy) extras.
To do this, I drive a shitty ass truck because it still works. I don't go out and buy $200 sneakers. I don't blow my paycheck on jewelery. It's called responsibility.
Status is not having a car you can't afford, or a cell phone with internet, or a chain that weighs 900 lbs. Status and self-pride should be on putting food on your table and buying insurance to anticipate a medical emergency.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. Their are millions of Americans who don't have health insurance because they choose to spend their money elsewhere. Of course, this hurts those who really need help. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens when you cater to those who have no reason to be responsible for their own well-being and depend on you and I to foot the bill.
Do you feel better? ::) I think you took his black and white comment too seriously :P
$200 sneakers? 900lb chains? C'mon man
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWithout getting too into the Objectivist shit...
Ayn Rand believed in individual rights and most importantly the concept of individual responsibility.....not allowing government to do everything for you. Don't necessarily see what is wrong with that. Unless you believe that a person has the right to be a piece of shit and be given a handout.
Oh if only the world were that black and white. But it's not, is it?
I didn't say it was. But we are beginning to lose our sense of accountability it seems. Whether it be parenting or being accountable for your checkbook, it seems that people are becoming more and more dependent on an outside force to help them. I understand that there are people in this country that need help...the system is clogged with bottomfeeders who work the system and depend on the people who bust their ass for a living to provide a paycheck. I am definitely aware that things are more complicated than Ayn Rand's view of the three types of people (people who are great, people who know greatness but know they can't achieve it, and people who don't know greatness and don't know how to achieve it). But I think we all need a dose of independence. Stop complaining about being wronged and do something about it.
I think the main problem in this country right now is that everyone thinks they deserve luxuries. Even homeless people have i-phones these days. People go out, buy shit they can't afford, and then wonder why their lives suck so bad. We need to educate people on the difference between needs and wants.
Note: I've been rocking an old-school kyocera cell phone for the last 4 years because I make a serious effort to manage my money in order to buy important things like--- health insurance, house payment, etc. My cell phone makes calls and makes texts. I can live without the other UNNECESSARY (but flashy) extras.
To do this, I drive a shitty ass truck because it still works. I don't go out and buy $200 sneakers. I don't blow my paycheck on jewelery. It's called responsibility.
Status is not having a car you can't afford, or a cell phone with internet, or a chain that weighs 900 lbs. Status and self-pride should be on putting food on your table and buying insurance to anticipate a medical emergency.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. Their are millions of Americans who don't have health insurance because they choose to spend their money elsewhere. Of course, this hurts those who really need help. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens when you cater to those who have no reason to be responsible for their own well-being and depend on you and I to foot the bill.
Do you feel better? ::) I think you took his black and white comment too seriously :P
$200 sneakers? 900lb chains? C'mon man
Ha, yeah I guess I do feel better.
Really though, my time on these boards has been awesome. Everyone is super nice and respectful of each other even though we have a wide range of opinions.
This has been a pretty good debate. However, I still don't necesarilly feel comfy debating healthcare and atlus shrugged on an MMJ message board. We should all be chilling listening to X-Mas Curtain! Which is why I prefer it when bands stick to music and not formally support a politicians's cause, which in turn polarizes their community instead of bringing it together.
Let's talk about freaking how badass "Smokin' From Shootin'" is. That song came out of nowheres.
:D
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWithout getting too into the Objectivist shit...
Ayn Rand believed in individual rights and most importantly the concept of individual responsibility.....not allowing government to do everything for you. Don't necessarily see what is wrong with that. Unless you believe that a person has the right to be a piece of shit and be given a handout.
Oh if only the world were that black and white. But it's not, is it?
I didn't say it was. But we are beginning to lose our sense of accountability it seems. Whether it be parenting or being accountable for your checkbook, it seems that people are becoming more and more dependent on an outside force to help them. I understand that there are people in this country that need help...the system is clogged with bottomfeeders who work the system and depend on the people who bust their ass for a living to provide a paycheck. I am definitely aware that things are more complicated than Ayn Rand's view of the three types of people (people who are great, people who know greatness but know they can't achieve it, and people who don't know greatness and don't know how to achieve it). But I think we all need a dose of independence. Stop complaining about being wronged and do something about it.
I think the main problem in this country right now is that everyone thinks they deserve luxuries. Even homeless people have i-phones these days. People go out, buy shit they can't afford, and then wonder why their lives suck so bad. We need to educate people on the difference between needs and wants.
Note: I've been rocking an old-school kyocera cell phone for the last 4 years because I make a serious effort to manage my money in order to buy important things like--- health insurance, house payment, etc. My cell phone makes calls and makes texts. I can live without the other UNNECESSARY (but flashy) extras.
To do this, I drive a shitty ass truck because it still works. I don't go out and buy $200 sneakers. I don't blow my paycheck on jewelery. It's called responsibility.
Status is not having a car you can't afford, or a cell phone with internet, or a chain that weighs 900 lbs. Status and self-pride should be on putting food on your table and buying insurance to anticipate a medical emergency.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. Their are millions of Americans who don't have health insurance because they choose to spend their money elsewhere. Of course, this hurts those who really need help. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens when you cater to those who have no reason to be responsible for their own well-being and depend on you and I to foot the bill.
Do you feel better? ::) I think you took his black and white comment too seriously :P
$200 sneakers? 900lb chains? C'mon man
Ha, yeah I guess I do feel better.
Really though, my time on these boards has been awesome. Everyone is super nice and respectful of each other even though we have a wide range of opinions.
This has been a pretty good debate. However, I still don't necesarilly feel comfy debating healthcare and atlus shrugged on an MMJ message board. We should all be chilling listening to X-Mas Curtain! Which is why I prefer it when bands stick to music and not formally support a politicians's cause, which in turn polarizes their community instead of bringing it together.
Let's talk about freaking how badass "Smokin' From Shootin'" is. That song came out of nowheres.
:D
I feel you man though I don't agree. Rock n Roll and politics have quite a history in this country don't ya think? Agree or not, many would find it a duty to utilize new found influence on the masses (as MMJ now has) to facilitate change in a cause that they believe in.
I've never read Rand but I feel I owe it to myself to at least get through Atlas Shrugged.
Where is Tracy anyways?
This certainly is not the first time MMJ took a stance on the issues; supporting local, independent businesses. Supporting woodstock farm animal sanctuary. Jim performed a concert to get meditation in schools. These are just three of the most recent. I think that what they are trying to do, is support causes they think will make the world a better place. And reconnect the disconnect between us all. This was a good thing to start- this thread, because it is healthy to debate. Makes you realize that the human race is comprised of individuals, with individual thoughts, feelings, emotions, and opinions.
People will never fully agree on issues like health care, but once again, just because you are in a band- it doesn't mean you can't voice your opinion. Polarizing your fans in only one area of their lives. chances are, you and I, or you and anyone else on this forum have a lot more than our stances on health care that differ. But we do have a lot of similarities as well- one of which being our love of the band, and how much xmas curtain rocks. and how fucking awesome smokin from shooting is. ;D Peace and love babies, peace and love!
Jim knows something we do not. He wouldn't come out like that and support a politician unless he had inside information concerning the intentions behind the president's message. shhhh, it's a secret! Please do not be entirely oblivious to the message in every song Jim has written.
Jim's a smart dude...think inside your brains...go back to my first post on this thread, where I explained everything...maybe ya all should get off your internet and do some thinking and talk to your neighbors. America will be going through some drastic changes in the very near future. Educate yourself on self-sustainability now! :D
QuoteJim knows something we do not. He wouldn't come out like that and support a politician unless he had inside information concerning the intentions behind the president's message. shhhh, it's a secret! Please do not be entirely oblivious to the message in every song Jim has written.
Jim's a smart dude...think inside your brains...go back to my first post on this thread, where I explained everything...maybe ya all should get off your internet and do some thinking and talk to your neighbors. America will be going through some drastic changes in the very near future. Educate yourself on self-sustainability now! :D
It's kinda funny that you posted something on the internet telling us to get off of the internet. ;D
Oh, excuse me, "OUR" internet.
QuoteQuoteJim knows something we do not. He wouldn't come out like that and support a politician unless he had inside information concerning the intentions behind the president's message. shhhh, it's a secret! Please do not be entirely oblivious to the message in every song Jim has written.
Jim's a smart dude...think inside your brains...go back to my first post on this thread, where I explained everything...maybe ya all should get off your internet and do some thinking and talk to your neighbors. America will be going through some drastic changes in the very near future. Educate yourself on self-sustainability now! :D
It's kinda funny that you posted something on the internet telling us to get off of the internet. ;D
Oh, excuse me, "OUR" internet.
I think its only this guys internet (ps: joke is only funny if you've seen all the matrix movies- if you haven't, please, carry on)
(http://cvirus.foolab.org/wp-content/1.gif)
Quote
1. Our money has NO value. ZERO!!! Get off your hipster/poser ass and go educate yourself about the Federal Reserve and find out how they robbed us blind and continue to enslave us.
2. The corporations run this world. If you don't understand how serious this is, then you are fully endoctrinated into the system.
3. Because our currency is worth nothing, we need to push for a health care system that covers everyone. The money is fake anyway, so it doesn't even matter how much "it costs."
4. Once people become more aware to the truth that our government has sold us out to the corporations, we will overthrow everyone in perceived power and have full anarchy or a resource-based economy in which we will thrive beyond the current imagination that has been implanted in us by the school systems.
.
Was this message on
Highly Suspicious? Because i definitely didn't get the warning about the Fed Reserve on
The Librarian. i was just wonderin' I think Jim is just trying to support equality in healthcare but if you think it's something else, can you point me in some lyrical direction?
I LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
politics!!!!
This is the exact reason i will only check for tour dates on this website.. Jim has lost so much of my respect.. He is simply a musician.. He should act like one.. Get your messages accross via music.. We don't follow your band because you're a liberal.. We do because you make good tunes.. And it's got me wondering.. Instead of making albums you 5 sit around reading 1000 page bills? Maybe you're in the wrong profession.. Because even most of the Senators and Representatives have admitted to not reading the entire bill.. So that must take some determination.. Hope you really do know what you're supporting.. Because i honestly believe you don't..
QuoteQuoteQuoteWithout getting too into the Objectivist shit...
Ayn Rand believed in individual rights and most importantly the concept of individual responsibility.....not allowing government to do everything for you. Don't necessarily see what is wrong with that. Unless you believe that a person has the right to be a piece of shit and be given a handout.
Oh if only the world were that black and white. But it's not, is it?
I didn't say it was. But we are beginning to lose our sense of accountability it seems. Whether it be parenting or being accountable for your checkbook, it seems that people are becoming more and more dependent on an outside force to help them. I understand that there are people in this country that need help...the system is clogged with bottomfeeders who work the system and depend on the people who bust their ass for a living to provide a paycheck. I am definitely aware that things are more complicated than Ayn Rand's view of the three types of people (people who are great, people who know greatness but know they can't achieve it, and people who don't know greatness and don't know how to achieve it). But I think we all need a dose of independence. Stop complaining about being wronged and do something about it.
I think the main problem in this country right now is that everyone thinks they deserve luxuries. Even homeless people have i-phones these days. People go out, buy shit they can't afford, and then wonder why their lives suck so bad. We need to educate people on the difference between needs and wants.
Note: I've been rocking an old-school kyocera cell phone for the last 4 years because I make a serious effort to manage my money in order to buy important things like--- health insurance, house payment, etc. My cell phone makes calls and makes texts. I can live without the other UNNECESSARY (but flashy) extras.
To do this, I drive a shitty ass truck because it still works. I don't go out and buy $200 sneakers. I don't blow my paycheck on jewelery. It's called responsibility.
Status is not having a car you can't afford, or a cell phone with internet, or a chain that weighs 900 lbs. Status and self-pride should be on putting food on your table and buying insurance to anticipate a medical emergency.
It's like the boy who cried wolf. Their are millions of Americans who don't have health insurance because they choose to spend their money elsewhere. Of course, this hurts those who really need help. It's unfortunate, but that's what happens when you cater to those who have no reason to be responsible for their own well-being and depend on you and I to foot the bill.
Oi...this is an interesting post. Very directed at gov't involvement in what should be an individuals' personal responsibility, when it seems that the gov't bailouts and most recent intrusions where/are not to do with the individual, but business instead.
At the risk of sounding silly and giving you a perfectly good opportunity to make stuff up, do you actually know people who don't have the means and buy $200 sneakers? Or don't have the means and buy 900lb. chains? I mean, I see that show on MTV about the kids whose parents have really fancy houses, multiple cars, etc. Those folks are likely mortgaged from here to forever for all that stuff! Is that who you're talking about here? Jonas Bros. types with out the fame, but some of the fortune? Surely, people buying sneakers aren't to blame for the HUGE mess we are in...right?
I'm not sure about you, but the (financially) working poor people I've known and know, quite frankly can't buy $200 sneakers or big jewelry. I mean, Foot Locker isn't really accepting food stamps in lieu of cash/credit.
I guess my only point is that you seem to need someone to blame for the world's sorrows (or some of them). My only suggestion would be to apply reality (as in people, events, things from a real experience, not a TV show or magazine article) before letting yourself get too far.
And if it so happens that you do happen to know real folks who you think can't or shouldn't afford a new cell phone (I have a brand new one, by the way. Got it for $.01 on Amazon; previous phone was 7 years old), give them a little bit of your wisdom. Share the wealth! (pun intended...wealth of knowledge!) But don't believe the hype! ;)
As for your original...I still think it's OK for a band or a member of a band to post political/theological/fanatical/inspirational...etc. stuff on their website. I like knowing where people stand...I guess it doesn't just have to be music for me. I guess I enjoy knowing that they are still part of the "regular" world...dealing with the same crap that we're dealing with or thinking about. When I visit here I'm not trying to escape anything...it's more like I'm trying to get in to something. And around here that something can (and tends to be) just about anything. :)
QuoteThis is the exact reason i will only check for tour dates on this website.. Jim has lost so much of my respect.. He is simply a musician.. He should act like one.. Get your messages accross via music.. We don't follow your band because you're a liberal.. We do because you make good tunes.. And it's got me wondering.. Instead of making albums you 5 sit around reading 1000 page bills? Maybe you're in the wrong profession.. Because even most of the Senators and Representatives have admitted to not reading the entire bill.. So that must take some determination.. Hope you really do know what you're supporting.. Because i honestly believe you don't..
You act like Pharma is throwing Jim and the gang crazy amounts of money to post that little blip on MMJ.com. It's very plain to see that they believe that EVERYONE deserves decent health care ( Th
ey do, BTW), and not some political stunt. Oh Dear! My Morning Jacket actually give a shit about people! Fuck them! ::) Besides, without a single payer system this whole "reform" is fucking useless anyways. Chill out.
QuoteQuoteThis is the exact reason i will only check for tour dates on this website.. Jim has lost so much of my respect.. He is simply a musician.. He should act like one.. Get your messages accross via music.. We don't follow your band because you're a liberal.. We do because you make good tunes.. And it's got me wondering.. Instead of making albums you 5 sit around reading 1000 page bills? Maybe you're in the wrong profession.. Because even most of the Senators and Representatives have admitted to not reading the entire bill.. So that must take some determination.. Hope you really do know what you're supporting.. Because i honestly believe you don't..
You act like Pharma is throwing Jim and the gang crazy amounts of money to post that little blip on MMJ.com. It's very plain to see that they believe that EVERYONE deserves decent health care ( Th
ey do, BTW), and not some political stunt. Oh Dear! My Morning Jacket actually give a shit about people! Fuck them! ::) Besides, without a single payer system this whole "reform" is fucking useless anyways. Chill out.
How does no choice between insurance companies help me? So when they turn down a transplant..I have who to go to? O yeah some other country like all people already in a single payer system.. You really trust your government that much? If so move to China and let them make your decisions.. Too many people died so this wouldn't happen.. Which btw.. It won't..Why can't Obama do the smart thing and put stricter regulations on the already existing insurance companies? Why does the government need to control everything? What happened to free enterprise? Has our country gone crazy? Is your freedom hurting you that bad? Because i'm not rich by any means and i feel i'm doing ok.. And no i don't feel that somone is paying them to speak.. I know it's coming from jim's heart.. But as with a lot of americans these days.. I feel he is confused.. Look at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one.. And yes i do feel if you can't survive in this country.. Then fuck off go somewhere else... I feel a government shouldn't have to take you in.. Because when people have something to fall back on.. They WILL.. We will be another country filled with poverty and shortcomers.. That's a fact.. My post stated that i feel they have no idea what they are supporting.. Which they don't.. Based on the fact they haven't read the bill.. And if they have maybe they should become bureaucrats and raise money that way.. Because i'm sick of my money supporting things I don't agree with.. It's not fair to their fans to hop into politics and finacially support their beliefs.. So sorry guys.. I've fallen off the bandwagon.. I'm gonna miss that old feeling i once had for the boys.. But they honestly fucking sicken me now..
QuoteBecause i'm sick of my money supporting things I don't agree with
Now you know how the rest of have felt, oh the last few years with this godforesaken, bullshit war that has exhausted us all emotional and damn near bankrupt this country. I sure as fuck dind't support it and didn't want my money going to that lost cause. Yeah, that piece of shit really helped us out as a nation.
If you change your view on a bands music because they happen to support something you do not agree with, lame. Sorry.
Wow, Dudley! You are going to be one BUSY man, checking into the background politics of every person you give your money to. And your definitely going to have to give away at least 90% of of your CD's and DVD's. PM me and I'll let you know where to send them.
QuoteQuoteQuoteThis is the exact reason i will only check for tour dates on this website.. Jim has lost so much of my respect.. He is simply a musician.. He should act like one.. Get your messages accross via music.. We don't follow your band because you're a liberal.. We do because you make good tunes.. And it's got me wondering.. Instead of making albums you 5 sit around reading 1000 page bills? Maybe you're in the wrong profession.. Because even most of the Senators and Representatives have admitted to not reading the entire bill.. So that must take some determination.. Hope you really do know what you're supporting.. Because i honestly believe you don't..
You act like Pharma is throwing Jim and the gang crazy amounts of money to post that little blip on MMJ.com. It's very plain to see that they believe that EVERYONE deserves decent health care ( Th
ey do, BTW), and not some political stunt. Oh Dear! My Morning Jacket actually give a shit about people! Fuck them! ::) Besides, without a single payer system this whole "reform" is fucking useless anyways. Chill out.
How does no choice between insurance companies help me? So when they turn down a transplant..I have who to go to? O yeah some other country like all people already in a single payer system.. You really trust your government that much? If so move to China and let them make your decisions.. Too many people died so this wouldn't happen.. Which btw.. It won't..Why can't Obama do the smart thing and put stricter regulations on the already existing insurance companies? Why does the government need to control everything? What happened to free enterprise? Has our country gone crazy? Is your freedom hurting you that bad? Because i'm not rich by any means and i feel i'm doing ok.. And no i don't feel that somone is paying them to speak.. I know it's coming from jim's heart.. But as with a lot of americans these days.. I feel he is confused.. Look at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one.. And yes i do feel if you can't survive in this country.. Then fuck off go somewhere else... I feel a government shouldn't have to take you in.. Because when people have something to fall back on.. They WILL.. We will be another country filled with poverty and shortcomers.. That's a fact.. My post stated that i feel they have no idea what they are supporting.. Which they don't.. Based on the fact they haven't read the bill.. And if they have maybe they should become bureaucrats and raise money that way.. Because i'm sick of my money supporting things I don't agree with.. It's not fair to their fans to hop into politics and finacially support their beliefs.. So sorry guys.. I've fallen off the bandwagon.. I'm gonna miss that old feeling i once had for the boys.. But they honestly fucking sicken me now..
Every president from FDR to GWB (excluding Reagan) championed health care reform or further socialization (actually reagan first coined the term socialized medicine i think---he actually ran ads against it as gov--he was the only one, though) this is not a new concept? I don't agree w/every part of the bill/bills, but you can still champion free enterprise and realize that healthcare is pretty much falling to sh*t around us. ESPECIALLY since the ones w/out insurance are the working poor, not the POOR.
1935 - Depression made country realize the danger of no safety net
Roosevelt was successful in getting Social Security Act of 1935 passed
He dropped national health insurance to get it passed
1945 -
Truman asks Congress for a National Health Insurance programIdea gets no traction although Humphrey introduces bill in 1950's
1955 - Eisenhower--Federal Reinsurance service - encourage private insurance organizations to offer broader benefits and coverage to more people
1961 - Kennedy - expand SS to include health insurance for elderly
1960's Ronald Reagan - speaks out about national healthcare as "socialized medicine" 1964 - Great Society - Johnson -Tipping point for the health care reform for seniors
1965 - Medicare/Medicaid established
1974 - Nixon - proposes Comprehensive Health Insurance Program (CIP)--
Employer mandate -
wanted universal access1970's - Ford -
requests national health care program1970's – 1980's Carter -
campaigned for universal coverage;
Planned to regulate hospital revenues & capital expenditures
1980-s - 1990's - Managed Care - contracting w/insurance;
People complained about reduction of choice; lobbied government to regulate interference of health care companies
1990's - Clinton - derailed by lobbyists; insurance company
2001-2008 - George W. Bush - supported expansion of Federal Health centers for those who do not have adequate coverage; Supported Medicare Part D
[size=14]WOW!! OBAMA and JIM ARE obviously CRAZY!! [/size]you're right. i mean i guess jim should just go back to being a musician. hmmmmm
QuoteQuoteQuoteThis is the exact reason i will only check for tour dates on this website.. Jim has lost so much of my respect.. He is simply a musician.. He should act like one.. Get your messages accross via music.. We don't follow your band because you're a liberal.. We do because you make good tunes.. And it's got me wondering.. Instead of making albums you 5 sit around reading 1000 page bills? Maybe you're in the wrong profession.. Because even most of the Senators and Representatives have admitted to not reading the entire bill.. So that must take some determination.. Hope you really do know what you're supporting.. Because i honestly believe you don't..
You act like Pharma is throwing Jim and the gang crazy amounts of money to post that little blip on MMJ.com. It's very plain to see that they believe that EVERYONE deserves decent health care ( Th
ey do, BTW), and not some political stunt. Oh Dear! My Morning Jacket actually give a shit about people! Fuck them! ::) Besides, without a single payer system this whole "reform" is fucking useless anyways. Chill out.
How does no choice between insurance companies help me? So when they turn down a transplant..I have who to go to? O yeah some other country like all people already in a single payer system.. You really trust your government that much? If so move to China and let them make your decisions.. Too many people died so this wouldn't happen.. Which btw.. It won't..Why can't Obama do the smart thing and put stricter regulations on the already existing insurance companies? Why does the government need to control everything? What happened to free enterprise? Has our country gone crazy? Is your freedom hurting you that bad? Because i'm not rich by any means and i feel i'm doing ok.. And no i don't feel that somone is paying them to speak.. I know it's coming from jim's heart.. But as with a lot of americans these days.. I feel he is confused.. Look at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one.. And yes i do feel if you can't survive in this country.. Then fuck off go somewhere else... I feel a government shouldn't have to take you in.. Because when people have something to fall back on.. They WILL.. We will be another country filled with poverty and shortcomers.. That's a fact.. My post stated that i feel they have no idea what they are supporting.. Which they don't.. Based on the fact they haven't read the bill.. And if they have maybe they should become bureaucrats and raise money that way.. Because i'm sick of my money supporting things I don't agree with.. It's not fair to their fans to hop into politics and finacially support their beliefs.. So sorry guys.. I've fallen off the bandwagon.. I'm gonna miss that old feeling i once had for the boys.. But they honestly fucking sicken me now..
reality check- we are already a country filled with poverty and short comers.
And how do you KNOW that Jim hasn't read the bill? I'm not saying he has either way, but the politicians who say they haven't read it because its too long are the ones you should be angry at. its their job to read it, understand it, and make the best decision. Those who say they haven't read it are using its length as an excuse to further their own agendas- to tell the people sitting on the fence "fuck that, its so long, I haven't even read the damn thing and neither should you!"
I think you are a little backwards- Jim isn't saying anything new, he isn't this new person, this is who he has always been- now he is just able to verbalize it.
I found a picture of you Dudley, its and oldy, but a goody
(http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/n/U/moran.jpg)
QuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
COOOOOLLDDDD BLOOODEDD ;D
it looks like nothing will be happening before the end of the year anyway. I love russ feingold
http://www.lakelandtimes.com/print.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=10027
Is it really necessary to attack and mock when you disagree with someone?
I agree with Fanatic. Let's not reduce this thread to a town hall meeting.
QuoteIs it really necessary to attack and mock when you disagree with someone?
I tried not to be mocking in tone, Fanatic, and hope that you will continue to stick around for this thread. :) I'm a left-leaning independent who doesn't let abortion or the dollar guide her vote. That said, I enjoy hearing from the other side. I hope that you find some of the feedback informative.
QuoteQuoteI'm gonna miss that old feeling i once had for the boys.. But they honestly fucking sicken me now..
I am thinking if you go on the MMJ forum and say the band honestly fucking sickens you, you're probably going to get a few responses that may trend towards the unkind.
Is that right? Who knows. It's an internet forum ergo that's what happens, isn't it?
because One Big Holiday sounded a lot more bad a** when you thought they agreed w/you about health care reform?
here's a tip that may save you some trouble in the future, most musicians are liberal. most are creative types that probably didn't/don't have health care a lot as they were/are struggling artists. most are adamant about free speech and probably consider themselves 'spiritual' but not religious. most probably support gay marriage and are against DOMA. most are free spirits and probably don't spend their time worrying that our country is stifling free enterprise. (
[size=10]disclaimer--hate to stereotype, i know there are exceptions)[/size] so maybe you just wanna stick to your Ted Nugent, Donny Osmond, and Rush albums. i get why this bothers you, but i just don't know why it surprises you....you want the 'don't ask don't tell' policy on musicians' political stances?
How did we even get to this point? Doesn't the message just encourage health care reform, and to get involved and contact your representative? Is there anyone in the US who thinks the current system is awesome, perfect, don't touch a thing? Hell, there wasn't this much backlash when Jim was going to do the Obama Benefit for crying out loud.
I must say, it does bug me sometimes when musicians get political on subjects that they have really no knowledge about whatsoever. Like Green Day's last Anti-War Anti Bush album. If anyone asked them about anything political in an interview they really didn't have anything intelligent to say. But on the other hand musicians who fail to give their opinion on ANYTHING are probably just worried about offending 50% of their fan base and hurting their bottom line. Do you want your musicians to just talk about bangin' chics and wah wah pedals in between bong hits? That's fine, but I hope your tastes in music involve lots of Pop crap, and nothing that involves any type of intelligence, heart, compassion or change.
(http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/10/Toby-Keith-FoMoCo-Amerigasm.jpg)
QuoteLike Green Day's last Anti-War Anti Bush album. If anyone asked them about anything political in an interview they really didn't have anything intelligent to say.
That and the album pretty much sucked Big Foot's jimmyjunk...
QuoteHow did we even get to this point? Doesn't the message just encourage health care reform, and to get involved and contact your representative? Is there anyone in the US who thinks the current system is awesome, perfect, don't touch a thing? Hell, there wasn't this much backlash when Jim was going to do the Obama Benefit for crying out loud.
I must say, it does bug me sometimes when musicians get political on subjects that they have really no knowledge about whatsoever. Like Green Day's last Anti-War Anti Bush album. If anyone asked them about anything political in an interview they really didn't have anything intelligent to say. But on the other hand musicians who fail to give their opinion on ANYTHING are probably just worried about offending 50% of their fan base and hurting their bottom line. Do you want your musicians to just talk about bangin' chics and wah wah pedals in between bong hits? That's fine, but I hope your tastes in music involve lots of Pop crap, and nothing that involves any type of intelligence, heart, compassion or change.
Click the link....it is the Obama brand of health care reform. It in no way encourages you to think freely.
"Fight Back Against the Right" is on the first freaking page.
I haven't read this whole thread, but I would like to say that we have a pretty good medicare system in Australia (I am really greatful for it)and I feel that people in all countries should have the right to better healthcare.
2 cents.
QuoteThis is the exact reason i will only check for tour dates on this website.. Jim has lost so much of my respect.. He is simply a musician.. He should act like one..
Our legislators and judges, a/k/a law-making political people, have been pro athletes, actors, song writers, composers, criminals, bankers, doctors, day laborers, adulterers, con men, murderers, pastors, ministers, philosophers, drug addicts, and pro wrestlers...to name a few.
Who is to say what gives a person the ability to have a political opinion?
I say its virtue of knowledge, and althogh I don't necessarily agree with the politics of Yim Yames or MMJ or Jim James or anyone, there is a stark difference between emotionally yelling "George Bush hates Black People" and an informed opinion spoken passionately.
There are those who get political when they seek attention, and there are those who act by virtue of their knowledge and get political when they see a political moment that should be addressed.
The only ignorance is the presumption that because someone is _______, they can't have a valid opinion.
A valid opinion can only be determined after it is heard. Prima facie denial of information by means of an accusal of ignorance is ignorant in and of itself.
Point-in-case - Airing the speech from the Great Dictator during NYE was perhaps one of the most awesome experiences I've had in years. And I don't care if this was chosen for me by a teabagger or a musician or Chaplin himself.
Quote
Click the link....it is the Obama brand of health care reform. It in no way encourages you to think freely.
"Fight Back Against the Right" is on the first freaking page.
Yeah you're absolutely right. Makes the site seem more like a "bash conservatism" movement than a movement to "improve access to healthcare". How totally lame and transparent. They blatantly try to marginalize the vocal opposition at townhalls as "right wingers". Well sorrrry you "twist the picture to fit your agenda" people--there are overwhelming numbers who identify ON CAMERA their democrat affiliation!
QuoteQuote
Click the link....it is the Obama brand of health care reform. It in no way encourages you to think freely.
"Fight Back Against the Right" is on the first freaking page.
Yeah you're absolutely right. Makes the site seem more like a "bash conservatism" movement than a movement to "improve access to healthcare". How totally lame and transparent. They blatantly try to marginalize the vocal opposition at townhalls as "right wingers". Well sorrrry you "twist the picture to fit your agenda" people--there are overwhelming numbers who identify ON CAMERA their democrat affiliation!
I hate the political games on both sides- I wish that it wasn't about which party did what. instead make it "look at what these elected officials were able to come together and do!"
QuoteQuote
Click the link....it is the Obama brand of health care reform. It in no way encourages you to think freely.
"Fight Back Against the Right" is on the first freaking page.
Yeah you're absolutely right. Makes the site seem more like a "bash conservatism" movement than a movement to "improve access to healthcare". How totally lame and transparent. They blatantly try to marginalize the vocal opposition at townhalls as "right wingers". Well sorrrry you "twist the picture to fit your agenda" people--there are overwhelming numbers who identify ON CAMERA their democrat affiliation!
The link goes to an .org site that is pro-health care reform.
What message do you get from clicking on any of the .com or .org sites that are anti-health care?
It's not a big secret that the right wing has been finding any and every way to get their people out and on camera. Dick Armey was just on Meet the Press a couple of weeks ago and was forced to acknowldege his groups part in the "grass-roots" efforts to disrupt the town-hall meetings. If you didn't see that show, certainly you've seen some portion of the shows by the jokers on fox.
Generally, I think the folks shouting and yelling are crazed and have been motivated by fear and misinformation to behave poorly on camera. Just my $.02. YMMV. I can only hope that they have real questions that they allow their own questions/assertions to be answered. My hope is not they they somehow turn around and support the reform -- only that they let their decision be guided by fact and fact only.
Not gonna lie...this thread is getting boring.
Babe, there's just oooone thiiiiiing, one thing that does it, does it for meeee
QuoteNot gonna lie...this thread is getting boring.
Babe, there's just oooone thiiiiiing, one thing that does it, does it for meeee
Yo Nikk, honey, hate to tell you, but Jim was talking about universal health care when he sang, "Babe, there's just oooone thiiiiiing, one thing that does it, does it for meeee".
In fact, if you'd take your head out of Rush Limbaugh's ass long enough, you'd see that 95% of MMJ songs are about universal health care; or sticking it to whitey.
QuoteQuoteNot gonna lie...this thread is getting boring.
Babe, there's just oooone thiiiiiing, one thing that does it, does it for meeee
Yo Nikk, honey, hate to tell you, but Jim was talking about universal health care when he sang, "Babe, there's just oooone thiiiiiing, one thing that does it, does it for meeee".
In fact, if you'd take your head out of Rush Limbaugh's ass long enough, you'd see that 95% of MMJ songs are about universal health care; or sticking it to whitey.
duh... :D ;D ;D
QuoteQuoteQuoteNot gonna lie...this thread is getting boring.
Babe, there's just oooone thiiiiiing, one thing that does it, does it for meeee
Yo Nikk, honey, hate to tell you, but Jim was talking about universal health care when he sang, "Babe, there's just oooone thiiiiiing, one thing that does it, does it for meeee".
In fact, if you'd take your head out of Rush Limbaugh's ass long enough, you'd see that 95% of MMJ songs are about universal health care; or sticking it to whitey.
duh... :D ;D ;D
You are right. Now that I go back through the catalog, how did I miss all this shit? Like in "Phone Went West"...."Tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm right, tell me there's nobody else in the woooooooooooorld." That is definitely about Jim's hope for Obama to get elected and think up the Cash for Clunkers program. How the hell did he sing about that so far in advance.
Edit: Cobra is about the need for safer, cleaner alternative forms of fuel. I feel dumb.
Into the Woods is about Death Panels for children.
QuoteInto the Woods is about Death Panels for children.
It is. Phone went west is about how all the doctors got scared away from socialized medicine and someone getting an abortion in a garage.
QuoteQuoteInto the Woods is about Death Panels for children.
It is. Phone went west is about how all the doctors got scared away from socialized medicine and someone getting an abortion in a garage.
No, Phone Went West is about gays in the military and Jim's view on the "don't ask don't tell policy." Listen to the actual song.
(http://www.elchode.com/images/photoshop/fark/2009/obamache.jpg)
I entered this image into a photoshop contest called "earn your own entry on Snopes.com"
So far in the span of 4 days it has been downloaded/accessed/viewed over 22,000 times taking up about 40% of my bandwidth.
It's so bad you can see the pixels, yet I know one of the referring sites that has the most hits is yahoo mail, which I can only suspect means that there is a chain letter going around an office somplace saying "SEE I TOLD YOU SO"
(http://www.elchode.com/images/photoshop/fark/2009/obamache.jpg)
Communist
Socialist
Fascist
Oligarchist
Racist
Euthanasist (wants to kill my granny)
Reparations seeker
Muslim
Terrorist
Illegal Alien
Radical
and has a Che Guevara tattoo?
be afraid....be very afraid.
the che tattoo is annoying...but what a hawt body!! socialist or not, our pres is smokin' !! :D take THAT putin w/your man boobs!!
I'm not sure if bear sin rug is being sarcastic or an idiot, but I'm not even sure most Americans know what socialism is. You've already been using and enjoying social programs and institutions for at least a hundred years or more.
QuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
QuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
That's so untrue it's not even funny. Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait, but it doesn't happen very often and it certainly isn't a wise political move. Hospitals shouldn't treat patients as profit, but they certainly do in the US.
we should just try it...
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
That's so untrue it's not even funny. Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait, but it doesn't happen very often and it certainly isn't a wise political move. Hospitals shouldn't treat patients as profit, but they certainly do in the US.
i guess it probably seems that way. right now most hospitals in NJ are non-profit and bankrupt, just trying to break even.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
That's so untrue it's not even funny. Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait, but it doesn't happen very often and it certainly isn't a wise political move. Hospitals shouldn't treat patients as profit, but they certainly do in the US.
"Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait..."
When it comes to getting Medical care, I will NEVER want to have to wait.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
That's so untrue it's not even funny. Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait, but it doesn't happen very often and it certainly isn't a wise political move. Hospitals shouldn't treat patients as profit, but they certainly do in the US.
"Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait..."
When it comes to getting Medical care, I will NEVER want to have to wait.
No one does, but every citizen in Canada is covered for all serious medical procedures and expenses. Overall, we wouldn't want it any other way and recent polls suggest neither do 90% of all Canadians. Maybe it's because we are more socialist-thinking. Anway, Canada has private clinics too, so waiting for procedures doesn't happen very often.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
That's so untrue it's not even funny. Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait, but it doesn't happen very often and it certainly isn't a wise political move. Hospitals shouldn't treat patients as profit, but they certainly do in the US.
"Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait..."
When it comes to getting Medical care, I will NEVER want to have to wait.
No one does, but every citizen in Canada is covered for all serious medical procedures and expenses. Overall, we wouldn't want it any other way and recent polls suggest neither do 90% of all Canadians. Maybe it's because we are more socialist-thinking. Anway, Canada has private clinics too, so waiting for procedures doesn't happen very often.
Maybe you are more Socialist thinking. We are more down with the "make your own success, government butts out, seperation of my wallet and state" model of thinking....We wouldn't want it any other way either.......that's what most Americans believe anyway. Of course, the hipster crowd and celebs are more in tune with Canada's way of thinking....they just like the weather better here.
I have an idea for Canada....why don't you help us foot our military budget every year and we can use that money on health care reform. It'd be only fair since you depend on us for protection.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
That's so untrue it's not even funny. Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait, but it doesn't happen very often and it certainly isn't a wise political move. Hospitals shouldn't treat patients as profit, but they certainly do in the US.
"Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait..."
When it comes to getting Medical care, I will NEVER want to have to wait.
No one does, but every citizen in Canada is covered for all serious medical procedures and expenses. Overall, we wouldn't want it any other way and recent polls suggest neither do 90% of all Canadians. Maybe it's because we are more socialist-thinking. Anway, Canada has private clinics too, so waiting for procedures doesn't happen very often.
Maybe you are more Socialist thinking. We are more down with the "make your own success, government butts out, seperation of my wallet and state" model of thinking....We wouldn't want it any other way either.......that's what most Americans believe anyway. Of course, the hipster crowd and celebs are more in tune with Canada's way of thinking....they just like the weather better here.
I have an idea for Canada....why don't you help us foot our military budget every year and we can use that money on health care reform. It'd be only fair since you depend on us for protection.
Nikk, let me guess, you're a scared and angry white guy who has never served his country (and never will), who talks smack about the USA being #1 and is bent out of shape b/c just when you thought you were going to be "the cool guy" and turn your conservative friends on to some "radical" rock n' roll by MMJ ( to recover from your prediction in '98 that Smash Mouth was the new Beatles), you find out that MMJ is a bunch of whacked out lefty hippies who want to get rid of the good ol' USA and turn it into a communist state run by communist facist terrorist muslim communists who want to kill old people and veterans so as to save some money for the big Striesand concert at The Palladium and fly their gas guzzling Lear jets to North Beach to party with Perez Hilton and Hugo Chavez.
Am I close?
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteLook at history and tell me one socialist country that atually helps the people.. Just one..
A. Sweden.
B. I thought you were leaving?
whoa i just saw this. can't believe you're serious...but i'll indulge you if you are:
the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world..(we spend about the double GDP that Euros do) and we're behind in all major categories; i'm assuming you haven't tried to visit a hospital around the NYC/NJ area (where most are bankrupt)
as of May 2007--comparitive analysis-www.commonwealthfund.org An International Update on the Comparitive Performance of American Health Care"Six nations studied (Germany, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US) --the US ranks LAST....when it comes to patient safety, efficiency, equity, and access;
"the US is also lagging in adoption of information technology and nat'l policies that promote Quality Improvement"
EMR (electronic medical records) the US also lags behind Euro countries "as of 2006, fewer than 10% of American hospitals have adopted EMRs and other health information technology, less than 20% of PCPs use them"
i am not completely biased--the area where the US does the best is preventive care (and treating certain kids of cancers)
True....whenever Canada's, Sweden's, and Britain's leaders or celebs get cancer or need surgery, they hit up the U.S. of A.
That is what the song "Sec Walkin" is about....
That's so untrue it's not even funny. Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait, but it doesn't happen very often and it certainly isn't a wise political move. Hospitals shouldn't treat patients as profit, but they certainly do in the US.
"Sometimes a few Canadians pay for medical care in the US if they don't want to wait..."
When it comes to getting Medical care, I will NEVER want to have to wait.
No one does, but every citizen in Canada is covered for all serious medical procedures and expenses. Overall, we wouldn't want it any other way and recent polls suggest neither do 90% of all Canadians. Maybe it's because we are more socialist-thinking. Anway, Canada has private clinics too, so waiting for procedures doesn't happen very often.
Maybe you are more Socialist thinking. We are more down with the "make your own success, government butts out, seperation of my wallet and state" model of thinking....We wouldn't want it any other way either.......that's what most Americans believe anyway. Of course, the hipster crowd and celebs are more in tune with Canada's way of thinking....they just like the weather better here.
I have an idea for Canada....why don't you help us foot our military budget every year and we can use that money on health care reform. It'd be only fair since you depend on us for protection.
Nikk, let me guess, you're a scared and angry white guy who has never served his country (and never will), who talks smack about the USA being #1 and is bent out of shape b/c just when you thought you were going to be "the cool guy" and turn your conservative friends on to some "radical" rock n' roll by MMJ ( to recover from your prediction in '98 that Smash Mouth was the new Beatles), you find out that MMJ is a bunch of whacked out lefty hippies who want to get rid of the good ol' USA and turn it into a communist state run by communist facist terrorist muslim communists who want to kill old people and veterans so as to save some money for the big Striesand concert at The Palladium and fly their gas guzzling Lear jets to North Beach to party with Perez Hilton and Hugo Chavez.
Am I close?
:-[
Say, bear sin rug, you a Rush fan?
QuoteSay, bear sin rug, you a Rush fan?
I like the band but not the radio guy; never saw the movie.
so...
QuoteQuoteSay, bear sin rug, you a Rush fan?
I like the band but not the radio guy; never saw the movie.
so...
Just checking. Good movie. You should check it out.
QuoteQuoteMaybe you are more Socialist thinking. We are more down with the "make your own success, government butts out, seperation of my wallet and state" model of thinking....We wouldn't want it any other way either.......that's what most Americans believe anyway. Of course, the hipster crowd and celebs are more in tune with Canada's way of thinking....they just like the weather better here.
Gosh, I didn't know that celebrities and hipsters had cornered the market on compassion for others. I wish someone had told me.
Also, it's separation, not seperation.
I had a typo on a message board? Damn, I should have had a few friends proof-read my post!
So not supporting big government shows a lack of compassion? I didn't know that there is a correlation there....just ask a bunch of dead people in Siberia.
And I cannot stand it when people accuse conservatives of not being "compassionate." That is so played out. I support small government. That doesn't make me any less compassionate. I give money to charity, I volunteer, I have worked with people with mental disabilities, etc., etc., etc. But because I find myself just on the conservative side of the fence, I must be a racist, bible-thumping zealot. Get a life.
Oh, and Rush rules.
QuoteQuoteQuoteMaybe you are more Socialist thinking. We are more down with the "make your own success, government butts out, seperation of my wallet and state" model of thinking....We wouldn't want it any other way either.......that's what most Americans believe anyway. Of course, the hipster crowd and celebs are more in tune with Canada's way of thinking....they just like the weather better here.
Gosh, I didn't know that celebrities and hipsters had cornered the market on compassion for others. I wish someone had told me.
Also, it's separation, not seperation.
I had a typo on a message board? Damn, I should have had a few friends proof-read my post!
So not supporting big government shows a lack of compassion? I didn't know that there is a correlation there....just ask a bunch of dead people in Siberia.
And I cannot stand it when people accuse conservatives of not being "compassionate." That is so played out. I support small government. That doesn't make me any less compassionate. I give money to charity, I volunteer, I have worked with people with mental disabilities, etc., etc., etc. But because I find myself just on the conservative side of the fence, I must be a racist, bible-thumping zealot. Get a life.
Oh, and Rush rules.
come on nikko, you basically told Jim and the boys to shut the fuck up about their political beliefs and simply be good little musicians and play for us. You're not a victim here.
Quotealso this...
QuoteThe other side of the coin would be that Jim is a person who has his own voice and own opinions and he can use it any way he wants....so whatever.
My whole point is, it's cool that Jim agrees with Obamacare..it's cool if he doesn't. However, I don't know why I should agree with Jim linking a "Support Obama Health Care Reform" website. I wouldn't agree if he said "Vote for McCain...support his campaign" I wouldn't agree if he said "Ban Gay Marriage...make your voice heard here." I don't like it when bands post their political opinions on their website. Why? Because that's not why I go on the website.
It would be like going onto a sports team website and seeing "The Pittsburgh Steelers support Rhianna as the greatest vocalist of the year....go to her website and vote for her for the Kid's Choice Awards."
Point is, what is the point of Jim posting his PERSONAL beliefs on his BAND website? It's not like someone is going to be listening to "Sec Walkin'" one afternoon and say, "wow, what's this about health care reform????? I'm going to do some extensive research on the subject." He isn't trying to raise thought on the subject....he is trying to get you to agree with his view of the subject--otherwise he'd have links to both sides. I'm sorry....it is my belief that bands posting political opinions on their website is lame. The band's view is liberal leaning...I must be a wacko conservative since I don't like seeing political junk on the homepage. End of story.
Quote
It would be like going onto a sports team website and seeing "The Pittsburgh Steelers support Rhianna as the greatest vocalist of the year....go to her website and vote for her for the Kid's Choice Awards."
Or the Steelers playing at a stadium named after ketchup? It's Heinz Field, not Hunts Field.
The reality is, Jim is being political and will continue to speak his mind and you keep bitching and moaning about it, but it can't bother you too much cuz you're still here.
Why bother?
QuoteQuote
It would be like going onto a sports team website and seeing "The Pittsburgh Steelers support Rhianna as the greatest vocalist of the year....go to her website and vote for her for the Kid's Choice Awards."
Or the Steelers playing at a stadium named after ketchup? It's Heinz Field, not Hunts Field.
The reality is, Jim is being political and will continue to speak his mind and you keep bitching and moaning about it, but it can't bother you too much cuz you're still here.
Why bother?
I am still here because I like the MUSIC...that is the reason I come here. Not to hear about the next Obama initiative I should support.
It's funny though because I wonder what you guys would do if Jim linked you guys to an "anti-abortion" website. Just wondering.
Oh, and who are you? 13 of your 14 posts have been responses to me.
Quote
It's funny though because I wonder what you guys would do if Jim linked you guys to an "anti-abortion" website. Just wondering.
what makes you think I am pro-choice? I don't adhere to the beliefs of
one political party. I also don't think it's my business what other people put on [size=16]THEIR[/size] web sites.
Either you like it or don't, but quit whining. We all get your point. 6 billion web sites and you got a problem with this one and it's not even yours. ;D
thanks
Quote
There is quite a difference between saying, "I don't agree with MMJ" and "MMJ does not have the right to talk about their views because they are musicians and musicians don't deserve to have opinions." Meanwhile, none of the moderators have tampered with your right to come in here and speak your mind.
Interestingly enough, I came across this quote in my readings the other day, from Justice Brandeis during a decision about Communist activities in the first half of the 20th century:
QuoteIt is the function of free speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears
QuoteQuoteI am still here because I like the MUSIC...that is the reason I come here. Not to hear about the next Obama initiative I should support.
It's funny though because I wonder what you guys would do if Jim linked you guys to an "anti-abortion" website. Just wondering.
This website is pretty vast, full of loads of information. It has 11 sections, and the news blog they run has many entries. The band's thoughts on health care take up eight lines. Somehow, I think you could manage to find out plenty of info about the MUSIC. Yet you took the time to write a longer than eight line missive about how the band should shut up. It wasn't polite, it was snide and insulting.
You also ask, repeatedly, all sorts of "what would you guys do if Jim supported right wing causes?" questions. I think, 100% of the time the answer, across the board, has been, "Jim can say what he wants."
It is a small, but loud and often rude minority, who seems to think that MMJ doesn't have the right to say whatever the hell they want ON THEIR WEBSITE (or anywhere else, for that matter).
*head asplode*
There is quite a difference between saying, "I don't agree with MMJ" and "MMJ does not have the right to talk about their views because they are musicians and musicians don't deserve to have opinions." Meanwhile, none of the moderators have tampered with your right to come in here and speak your mind.
Trust me...I do appreciate that the moderators here aren't jerks and that they allowed this thread to go on although it did stray away from MMJ a bit. I also appreciate the fact that this board continues to have a fairly great group of people. I have always felt that this site has one of the nicest group of boardies. I still disagree with most of you though! ;)
Anyway, it's been a pretty good discussion. We've all said our piece I think. High fives all around. Now we can go back to being friends. I'll even shake your hand Membors Only and Bear Sin Rug. I ain't mad atcha.
sorry one last thing and i'll let it die.
Jim IS MMJ, MMJ IS Jim James, that's his baby, personal beliefs included---music is political; Most great songs are written about love or politics...and the best music was written in politically turbulent times. so whether you agree w/MMJ or not, some of the things you've said in this thread are absurd. It doesn't mean the rest of us are whacky liberals, just that you invoke your right to post on a band's website (used for marketing the band) and criticize the band's choice to also post. this thread should end i guess but it'll continue to stick in my craw (or whatever that saying is that southerners use) :(
So, is this stupid thread officially over now?
THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QuoteSo, is this stupid thread officially over now?
THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I kinda agree in a way. I made the thread, went on a vacation, and when I came back it was 9 or 10 pages long.
I'll agree to disagree with Jim on this one and will mozy on over to the "music" forum to talk about some real shit.
At the risk of offending LoveDogg (begging your pardon already) :)
Someone, a few posts ago, mentioned that no one was going to go and research the issue just b/c the band has a statement on their site. I disagree. I think a handful of the people who contributed to this thread probably did a little bit of digging to find out what was up and what was true. You can get your ass handed to you fairly quickly around here for not knowing what it is that you're typing about. (Yeah, I know Nikk...reliance on actual experience and facts is boring)
The links on the homepage have been changed to point to the actual government site for the bill and for contacting your rep. So, this lame discussion may have actually had a positive effect. :)
Quote (Yeah, I know Nikk...reliance on actual experience and facts is boring)
::)
wtf? my argument has nothing to do with health care...it has to do with the band's website as a political forum. Why are you going to put a jab in there about me not paying attention to facts? Sorry, but this little side-note jab made no sense.
QuoteAnd here I thought it was high fives all around...
Me too. I have tried to end this thing like 5 times. We have all agreed to disagree. And then someone has to come on and be a smartass. Whatever though. Fun times guys.
QuoteQuoteMe too. I have tried to end this thing like 5 times. We have all agreed to disagree. And then someone has to come on and be a smartass. Whatever though. Fun times guys.
Well, you did start it... and keep it going.
I'm personally amused and fascinated by this long and interesting thread. But then I have no life.
I am wondering if Nikk has the willpower to stop posting on his own. What if he responds to every one of my posts and I post every day for the next 37 years? Will he eventually stop? Will he continue to say how tired this has all become, all the while responding to every post?
Hoping and praying it will end when all he has to do is simply not respond?
::)
QuoteQuoteQuoteMe too. I have tried to end this thing like 5 times. We have all agreed to disagree. And then someone has to come on and be a smartass. Whatever though. Fun times guys.
Well, you did start it... and keep it going.
I'm personally amused and fascinated by this long and interesting thread. But then I have no life.
I am wondering if Nikk has the willpower to stop posting on his own. What if he responds to every one of my posts and I post every day for the next 37 years? Will he eventually stop? Will he continue to say how tired this has all become, all the while responding to every post?
Hoping and praying it will end when all he has to do is simply not respond?
::)
do you guys like weezer?
QuoteAt the risk of offending LoveDogg (begging your pardon already) :)
Someone, a few posts ago, mentioned that no one was going to go and research the issue just b/c the band has a statement on their site. I disagree. I think a handful of the people who contributed to this thread probably did a little bit of digging to find out what was up and what was true. You can get your ass handed to you fairly quickly around here for not knowing what it is that you're typing about. (Yeah, I know Nikk...reliance on actual experience and facts is boring)
The links on the homepage have been changed to point to the actual government site for the bill and for contacting your rep. So, this lame discussion may have actually had a positive effect. :)
i've got your back NoVa. If you say stupid sh*t, prepare to defend it. NoI'm not talking facts about healthcare, but was what you posted even logical. I guess if you can't, divert everyone's attention w/smart ass references to obscure bands i guess.
QuoteQuoteAt the risk of offending LoveDogg (begging your pardon already) :)
Someone, a few posts ago, mentioned that no one was going to go and research the issue just b/c the band has a statement on their site. I disagree. I think a handful of the people who contributed to this thread probably did a little bit of digging to find out what was up and what was true. You can get your ass handed to you fairly quickly around here for not knowing what it is that you're typing about. (Yeah, I know Nikk...reliance on actual experience and facts is boring)
The links on the homepage have been changed to point to the actual government site for the bill and for contacting your rep. So, this lame discussion may have actually had a positive effect. :)
i've got your back NoVa. If you say stupid sh*t, prepare to defend it. NoI'm not talking facts about healthcare, but was what you posted even logical. I guess if you can't, divert everyone's attention w/smart ass references to obscure bands i guess.
weezer isn't obscure? so no weezer fans?
QuoteQuoteweezer isn't obscure? so no weezer fans?
I don't know. Rivers Cuomo speaks out about the Buddhist meditation that he does. I wish he would just shut up and sing "The Sweater Song."
"I'm not going to stop yelling because that would mean I lost the fight!" - Kenny Powers
QuoteQuoteQuoteweezer isn't obscure? so no weezer fans?
I don't know. Rivers Cuomo speaks out about the Buddhist meditation that he does. I wish he would just shut up and sing "The Sweater Song."
"I'm not going to stop yelling because that would mean I lost the fight!" - Kenny Powers
this thread is entertaining but you post like a 'dickhead'! (sort of) =Kenny Powers
sorry, no weezer's not obscure, just a little terrible.
QuoteQuotealso this...
QuoteThe other side of the coin would be that Jim is a person who has his own voice and own opinions and he can use it any way he wants....so whatever.
My whole point is, it's cool that Jim agrees with Obamacare..it's cool if he doesn't. However, I don't know why I should agree with Jim linking a "Support Obama Health Care Reform" website. I wouldn't agree if he said "Vote for McCain...support his campaign" I wouldn't agree if he said "Ban Gay Marriage...make your voice heard here." I don't like it when bands post their political opinions on their website. Why? Because that's not why I go on the website.
It would be like going onto a sports team website and seeing "The Pittsburgh Steelers support Rhianna as the greatest vocalist of the year....go to her website and vote for her for the Kid's Choice Awards."
Point is, what is the point of Jim posting his PERSONAL beliefs on his BAND website? It's not like someone is going to be listening to "Sec Walkin'" one afternoon and say, "wow, what's this about health care reform????? I'm going to do some extensive research on the subject." He isn't trying to raise thought on the subject....he is trying to get you to agree with his view of the subject--otherwise he'd have links to both sides. I'm sorry....it is my belief that bands posting political opinions on their website is lame. The band's view is liberal leaning...I must be a wacko conservative since I don't like seeing political junk on the homepage. End of story.
I just want to point out that it doesn't say JIM supports (meaning he isn't posting HIS personal beliefs on the BANDS website)
The band is posting their beliefs on the bands website-
maybe its been a while since everyone has read the front page but I don't see any problems with what has been posted.
"MY MORNING JACKET SUPPORTS HEALTH CARE REFORM
My Morning Jacket is proud to support health care reform, and we encourage our friends, fans and family to make your voice heard and ask Congress to reform the health care system. In a society in which families are losing their homes due to high medical bills, premiums are rising 4 times faster than wages, and health care costs are the #1 cause of bankruptcy today, whichever side of the aisle you vote for we can all agree that no person should be denied adequate health care simply because they cannot afford it. Click here to find out more about the issues and here for information on how to contact your local congressional representatives."
now they aren't saying OBAMACARE or anything they are saying
"Hey everyone, we think that the health care system is totally fucked right now, prices are way to high and we think its wrong to let so many people go uninsured or unprotected. If you think so too, or want some more information go here- if you want to contact your congressional representative- here's how."
pretty simple I'd say.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteweezer isn't obscure? so no weezer fans?
I don't know. Rivers Cuomo speaks out about the Buddhist meditation that he does. I wish he would just shut up and sing "The Sweater Song."
"I'm not going to stop yelling because that would mean I lost the fight!" - Kenny Powers
I think you lost the fight around page 12, dude.
alright man.
I would be interested to know how many on the forum don't have health insurance because they choose not to and what their ages are? And how you would feel if Dear Leader forced you to get it even if you didn't want it or face a financial penalty from the IRS if you refuse to purchase it.
I think the OP said perfectly...how gives a crap what MMJ thinks of Health Care reform....I only care that they are a great band in a sea of crappy ones. Please don't screw it up by getting political.
QuoteI would be interested to know how many on the forum don't have health insurance because they choose not to and what their ages are? And how you would feel if Dear Leader forced you to get it even if you didn't want it or face a financial penalty from the IRS if you refuse to purchase it.
I think the OP said perfectly...how gives a crap what MMJ thinks of Health Care reform....I only care that they are a great band in a sea of crappy ones. Please don't screw it up by getting political.
Haha, you can take the ball and run with this one.....I've already been beaten to death. Watch out for Members Only and bear sin rug....they are feisty ones...they don't like to shake and end the discussion. And make sure you have facts to support your opinion. Because when you have a simple opinion, you have to have facts....or something. ...have fun dawg. I've said my piece.
P.S. - You misspelled the word "who".....they are pretty critical of spelling errors on this thread. Be careful.
QuotePlease don't screw it up by getting political.
They are political.
Jim was going to perform at an Obama fund raiser before he got hurt.
Now they are advocating for health care reform on their web site.
They are political.
How do you not see this? It is crystal clear: [size=16]They are political.[/size]
Do you understand?
QuoteI would be interested to know how many on the forum don't have health insurance because they choose not to and what their ages are? And how you would feel if Dear Leader forced you to get it even if you didn't want it or face a financial penalty from the IRS if you refuse to purchase it.
I think the OP said perfectly...how gives a crap what MMJ thinks of Health Care reform....I only care that they are a great band in a sea of crappy ones. Please don't screw it up by getting political.
people who don't have health insurance (because they choose not to, because they can't afford it, because they are in this country illegally, etc) drive up the price for everyone else!!
(http://www.elchode.com/images/photoshop/fark/2009/lasers.jpg)
i thought it was a pretty good speech; i'm surprised he still pushed so strongly for the govt option (although mentioned it wouldn't touch medicare trust fund dollars) to please dems but then left a little bit of an OUT when he said he'd consider other options to please the repubs.
QuoteQuoteI would be interested to know how many on the forum don't have health insurance because they choose not to and what their ages are? And how you would feel if Dear Leader forced you to get it even if you didn't want it or face a financial penalty from the IRS if you refuse to purchase it.
I think the OP said perfectly...how gives a crap what MMJ thinks of Health Care reform....I only care that they are a great band in a sea of crappy ones. Please don't screw it up by getting political.
people who don't have health insurance (because they choose not to, because they can't afford it, because they are in this country illegally, etc) drive up the price for everyone else!!
So do hypochondriacs that have health insurance. It astounds me that some of the same people that oppose reform and believe if you can't afford it, you shouldn't have it also have no problem going to the doctor for everything and getting pills for everything while some of us only go when absolutely necessary. Those people really piss me off!
Can I ask a question? I want to know how my life would change if something new happens. I'll be the first to admit I don't follow politics very closely at all so that's why I'm asking yall. And I would like to hear from both sides of the coin.
I'm 29, in good health, work for a big company, that provides health insurance to all full-time employees. Have never really used my health insurance except for when I go get my teeth cleaned. How does my life change if the current health care system is changed? Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
Eric
QuoteCan I ask a question? I want to know how my life would change if something new happens. I'll be the first to admit I don't follow politics very closely at all so that's why I'm asking yall. And I would like to hear from both sides of the coin.
I'm 29, in good health, work for a big company, that provides health insurance to all full-time employees. Have never really used my health insurance except for when I go get my teeth cleaned. How does my life change if the current health care system is changed? Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
Eric
It depends on what they pass....we still don't know if a public option is on the table. Many are afraid of a public option for the following reasons:
a) The government sucks at running programs period.
b) Although they say that a private option will still exist, private insurance companies will have a hard time competing with the public option and will most likely go out of businesses (due to the fact that the government doesn't have to make a profit while private insurance will). Although this has been disputed by Obama, many Democrat congressmen have bragged that the public option would ultimately run the private insurance companies under.
c) Companies that offer private insurance will most likely drop private insurance since health care will in a sense be "free" to their employees with the public option and although they will be charged a "penalty" by the government for doing so, this penalty will have less of an impact than the savings they will receive by dropping private insurance.
Although the President is not lying when he says "If you like your insurance, you can keep it" it isn't really up to you. If the company you work for drops it to save money, you are left with paying for your own private insurance (which is expensive as shit when your employer isn't paying the bill) or getting on the public option (which will most likely suck ass).
The Republicans are spreading a lot of lies about old people being killed and blah blah blah, but the Democrats are being deceptive as well. Although Obama likes to act like the Republicans are whining without coming up with any ideas, they have presented a few bills that have been shot down immediately. This is partisan politics as usual from both sides...don't let Obama's "I want both sides to come together with their ideas" bullshit fool you. He wanted to rush his shit through last month so he could avoid any kind of debate.
In short, if you work for a corporation or small business that pays for your health insurance (or a portion of it), you have a high chance of losing your current plan if a public option is voted on. Think about it--if you were a corporation whose sales were down and you were laying off employees left and right, would you pay for premium private insurance (which accounts for a HIGH portion of a company's overhead) if the government was giving it away for free? And how is a private insurer supposed to compete with an entity that does not need to make a profit? Unless you want the government controlling everything you do in your life, it would be good of you to look down upon any sort of public option.
Note: Both sides of the aisle are leaning away from the public option currently (thank god). Congress also spent a few hours the other day voting to punish the dude who yelled "You Lie" to Obama. Great way to waste the taxpayers time and money. I love politics. BTW, one of the other boardies will copy and paste something from Obama's site in a few minutes to counter my opinion above. Keep in mind, I work for a company (my job is to save money) and the topic of benefits comes up very often as it is expensive as crap to insure millions of people. I know for a fact that corporations would drop private insurance in a heartbeat to stay afloat. You'd better hope Obamacare is good......it'd be the first time the government ever did something remotely well.
Remember, the government is there to represent you...not serve you.
(MODS---SINCE THIS IS TURNING INTO A DEBATE ON HEALTH CARE, WE SHOULD HAVE THIS MOVED TO THE "ALL THINGS NON-MMJ FORUM")
EazyE asked:
Quote How does my life change if the current health care system is changed? Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.
Eric
Nik replied:
QuoteIt depends on what they pass....we still don't know if a public option is on the table. Many are afraid of a public option for the following reasons:
a) The government sucks at running programs period.
Nice blanket statement, but not always true. Public transit, public schools -- particularly colleges and universities, public [insert your favorite public service here] are, in large part, quite successfully managed.
I come from a military family and have a healthy distrust of the gov't, but you have to give credit where credit is due.
Quote
b) Although they say that a private option will still exist, private insurance companies will have a hard time competing with the public option and will most likely go out of businesses (due to the fact that the government doesn't have to make a profit while private insurance will). Although this has been disputed by Obama, many Democrat congressmen have bragged that the public option would ultimately run the private insurance companies under.
Umm, you don't happen to have any proof that would back up your claim about Congressmen bragging about running private insurers out of business do you? Please post whatever you've got on that. I haven't heard/seen anything like that -- maybe I missed it.
For all the talk about competition, this notion that the gov't will run all the private insurers out of business is silly. What? They're all just going to through in the towel if there's a public option? I don't think so. I think they'll try to compete. Without knowing any details of a public plan, the closest analogy is medicare. Both of my parents are eligible. They had a choice: private insurance or medicare: One accepted, one did not. Both are happy.
Quote
c) Companies that offer private insurance will most likely drop private insurance since health care will in a sense be "free" to their employees with the public option and although they will be charged a "penalty" by the government for doing so, this penalty will have less of an impact than the savings they will receive by dropping private insurance.
I think there's a modicum of fact here. There will be some sort of penalty for companies that drop (a dis-incentive for companies to drop) their current options.
Quote
Although the President is not lying when he says "If you like your insurance, you can keep it" it isn't really up to you. If the company you work for drops it to save money, you are left with paying for your own private insurance (which is expensive as shit when your employer isn't paying the bill) or getting on the public option (which will most likely suck ass).
The Republicans are spreading a lot of lies about old people being killed and blah blah blah, but the Democrats are being deceptive as well. Although Obama likes to act like the Republicans are whining without coming up with any ideas, they have presented a few bills that have been shot down immediately. This is partisan politics as usual from both sides...don't let Obama's "I want both sides to come together with their ideas" bullshit fool you. He wanted to rush his shit through last month so he could avoid any kind of debate.
Yikes, I agree with something here! ;) I do think it was a mistake to try to rush this. I have heard the Repubs. whining that no one is using their ideas or listening to them. And I guess that's why so many of them are still out there talking about federal abortion dollars. ::)
If they have such good ideas (they are currently not supporting fellow repubs. McCain or Hatch's proposals), they shouldn't just walk away from the table. They could get them published or put them on a website (so that you could then have something to copy and paste).
I think Obama's biggest mistake was going to the Repubs. in the first place seeking a compromise. Personally, I don't think they want a compromise. I just think they want to defeat this to hand Obama a set back.
Quote
In short, if you work for a corporation or small business that pays for your health insurance (or a portion of it), you have a high chance of losing your current plan if a public option is voted on. Think about it--if you were a corporation whose sales were down and you were laying off employees left and right, would you pay for premium private insurance (which accounts for a HIGH portion of a company's overhead) if the government was giving it away for free? And how is a private insurer supposed to compete with an entity that does not need to make a profit? Unless you want the government controlling everything you do in your life, it would be good of you to look down upon any sort of public option.
Umm, you may not have noticed, but premiums are sky high and getting higher every year. Corporations are laying off employees left and right. Your doomsday scenario is happening right now. The only difference is that people are being left with out any option but being un-insured. They're going to emergency rooms for care -- that's not exactly cheap. And when they don't have money to pay, ultimately who pays the bill?
And again, the gov't is already competing with private companies in several areas. Which of those industries is failing b/c of competition from the gov't?
Quote
Note: Both sides of the aisle are leaning away from the public option currently (thank god). Congress also spent a few hours the other day voting to punish the dude who yelled "You Lie" to Obama. Great way to waste the taxpayers time and money. I love politics. BTW, one of the other boardies will copy and paste something from Obama's site in a few minutes to counter my opinion above. Keep in mind, I work for a company (my job is to save money) and the topic of benefits comes up very often as it is expensive as crap to insure millions of people. I know for a fact that corporations would drop private insurance in a heartbeat to stay afloat. You'd better hope Obamacare is good......it'd be the first time the government ever did something remotely well.
Remember, the government is there to represent you...not serve you.
::)
For what's it's worth, I wouldn't have even bothered to reply if you had presented your response as opinion and not fact. And, for what it's worth, I think it's a good idea to be able to back up what you say (opinion or not) with a little fact. So who ever wants to go to the health reform bill site and copy things -- have at it. Nothing like facts to get things going!
I think the public option will be preserved. Without it, I think the perception will be that the Dems. lost. As for the dumbbell who managed to embarrass himself and his party (oddly, apparently he feels that Obama is lying, but when any one else makes the same statement that Obama made regarding illegals, they are not lying. Now there's a good representative for your hard earned tax dollars!), that was two hours well-spent.
As for EazyE's question, I am in a similar position as you and don't use my insurance much. My guess is that my costs are going to increase and my care will be the same (same = waiting a month and a half for a biopsy appt. with a PPO plan).
Quote
(MODS---SINCE THIS IS TURNING INTO A DEBATE ON HEALTH CARE, WE SHOULD HAVE THIS MOVED TO THE "ALL THINGS NON-MMJ FORUM")
Given that a member of MMJ recently suffered a horrible accident and had to deal with Lord only knows what type of battles for care and that musicians often go without insurance and care, I think that there is still a small relevant connection between this exchange of ideas and the band. :)
Quote
In short, if you work for a corporation or small business that pays for your health insurance (or a portion of it), you have a high chance of losing your current plan if a public option is voted on. Think about it--if you were a corporation whose sales were down and you were laying off employees left and right, would you pay for premium private insurance (which accounts for a HIGH portion of a company's overhead) if the government was giving it away for free? And how is a private insurer supposed to compete with an entity that does not need to make a profit? Unless you want the government controlling everything you do in your life, it would be good of you to look down upon any sort of public option.
As a partner in a small business, who pays the bills nonetheless, I can tell you that my employee's are far more likely to lose their insurance benefit if reform does not happen. There have been 20% increases each year for the last 10 years I have worked there. We wholeheartedly believe that it is a moral obligation to provide insurance for our full-time employees (after only 3 months of being with the company too), and I can tell you we want to do this forever. However, we used to pay for it all. We now can't do that and ask for a minor before tax contribution. But without reform my friends, we just can't justify payroll raises
and keep paying the ridiculous health insurance premiums at this rate. That is the reality.
Reform is necessary.
Quote
Remember, the government is there to represent you...not serve you.
Almost a "healthy" discussion on health care reform until this typical bullshit.
Really, the government is not supposed to serve you, they're just supposed to "represent" you?
My friend, when your house catches on fire, how do you want the government to "represent" you?
When you need fresh water at your home to prepare meals, bathe, flush the toilet, brush your teeth, wash your clothes, etc... how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When someone is breaking into your house and stealing your TV, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When the population needs an education, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When we are being threatened and invaded by foreign hostility, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want to drop a letter in a box at the end of your driveway to be taken somewhere 100's of miles away, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want your trash taken away from your house, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When there's a tornado or flood or fire and 1,000's of acres of land and property are damaged, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want to go throw frisbee in the park, do you think that some angel keeps the grass cut and the trash picked up?
When your street has potholes or a street light is out, do you think some group of hard working gnomes that roams the nation doing good deeds just fixes that shit while you sleep at night?
When you're sailing out to sea and having to use aids to navigation (i.e. buoys) do you think some friendly seal or whale keeps those things where they're supposed to be?
I could go on and on and on...
Now, can you wrap your brain around what our country would be like if we followed your logic and the government did not serve us?
Start with the basics Enrique: the government SERVES the population. I don't know if you have ever used any of the above services (again, that SERVE word) but in many instances they do a good job.
It's this simple minded part of the health care reform debate that's so dangerous. Some moron says, "the government is there to represent you...not serve you," and then other morons agree (without second thought) and it snowballs and lo-and-behold you got a protest and anger about "government serving people" when government has always served people and done a pretty good job. Medicare? Heard of it?
The boogeyman isn't going to take your health care away from you. :-/
QuoteQuote
Remember, the government is there to represent you...not serve you.
Almost a "healthy" discussion on health care reform until this typical bullshit.
Really, the government is not supposed to serve you, they're just supposed to "represent" you?
My friend, when your house catches on fire, how do you want the government to "represent" you?
When you need fresh water at your home to prepare meals, bathe, flush the toilet, brush your teeth, wash your clothes, etc... how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When someone is breaking into your house and stealing your TV, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When the population needs an education, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When we are being threatened and invaded by foreign hostility, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want to drop a letter in a box at the end of your driveway to be taken somewhere 100's of miles away, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want your trash taken away from your house, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When there's a tornado or flood or fire and 1,000's of acres of land and property are damaged, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want to go throw frisbee in the park, do you think that some angel keeps the grass cut and the trash picked up?
When your street has potholes or a street light is out, do you think some group of hard working gnomes that roams the nation doing good deeds just fixes that shit while you sleep at night?
When you're sailing out to sea and having to use aids to navigation (i.e. buoys) do you think some friendly seal or whale keeps those things where they're supposed to be?
I could go on and on and on...
Now, can you wrap your brain around what our country would be like if we followed your logic and the government did not serve us?
Start with the basics Enrique: the government SERVES the population. I don't know if you have ever used any of the above services (again, that SERVE word) but in many instances they do a good job.
It's this simple minded part of the health care reform debate that's so dangerous. Some moron says, "the government is there to represent you...not serve you," and then other morons agree (without second thought) and it snowballs and lo-and-behold you got a protest and anger about "government serving people" when government has always served people and done a pretty good job. Medicare? Heard of it?
The boogeyman isn't going to take your health care away from you. :-/
You are right...Maybe I should have said "Federal Government"....most of the things you named are county government functions. My point is that I believe in a smaller, less in-your-face version of the Federal Government. I am perfectly fine with state and local government functions as I believe that states should have more power and the Federal government should have less power when it comes to a citizen's everyday life. I don't want the U.S. government selling me cars and running my health-care plan.
I think the only two examples above that were Federal government functions were the military and the post office. I do believe in a strong U.S. government....although I would separate our military from being part of the government. It is comprised of US citizens to defend our nation...something no one disagrees with. However, I have no choice when it comes to putting a letter in the mail. I'd actually rather have a private option for that. When it comes to packages, you can trust that I will not use the U.S. Postal Service......unless I want my package to arrive a year and a half later.
P.S.- How long did it take for you to come up with all of your examples?
QuoteQuoteQuote
Remember, the government is there to represent you...not serve you.
Almost a "healthy" discussion on health care reform until this typical bullshit.
Really, the government is not supposed to serve you, they're just supposed to "represent" you?
My friend, when your house catches on fire, how do you want the government to "represent" you?
When you need fresh water at your home to prepare meals, bathe, flush the toilet, brush your teeth, wash your clothes, etc... how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When someone is breaking into your house and stealing your TV, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When the population needs an education, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When we are being threatened and invaded by foreign hostility, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want to drop a letter in a box at the end of your driveway to be taken somewhere 100's of miles away, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want your trash taken away from your house, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When there's a tornado or flood or fire and 1,000's of acres of land and property are damaged, how do you want your government to "represent" you?
When you want to go throw frisbee in the park, do you think that some angel keeps the grass cut and the trash picked up?
When your street has potholes or a street light is out, do you think some group of hard working gnomes that roams the nation doing good deeds just fixes that shit while you sleep at night?
When you're sailing out to sea and having to use aids to navigation (i.e. buoys) do you think some friendly seal or whale keeps those things where they're supposed to be?
I could go on and on and on...
Now, can you wrap your brain around what our country would be like if we followed your logic and the government did not serve us?
Start with the basics Enrique: the government SERVES the population. I don't know if you have ever used any of the above services (again, that SERVE word) but in many instances they do a good job.
It's this simple minded part of the health care reform debate that's so dangerous. Some moron says, "the government is there to represent you...not serve you," and then other morons agree (without second thought) and it snowballs and lo-and-behold you got a protest and anger about "government serving people" when government has always served people and done a pretty good job. Medicare? Heard of it?
The boogeyman isn't going to take your health care away from you. :-/
You are right...Maybe I should have said "Federal Government"....most of the things you named are county government functions. My point is that I believe in a smaller, less in-your-face version of the Federal Government. I am perfectly fine with state and local government functions as I believe that states should have more power and the Federal government should have less power when it comes to a citizen's everyday life. I don't want the U.S. government selling me cars and running my health-care plan.
I think the only two examples above that were Federal government functions were the military and the post office. I do believe in a strong U.S. government....although I would separate our military from being part of the government. It is comprised of US citizens to defend our nation...something no one disagrees with. However, I have no choice when it comes to putting a letter in the mail. I'd actually rather have a private option for that. When it comes to packages, you can trust that I will not use the U.S. Postal Service......unless I want my package to arrive a year and a half later.
P.S.- How long did it take for you to come up with all of your examples?
I generated the list and cut and pasted it from another message board where some conservative robot, regurgitating the fear laden rants of Beck, Hannity and Limbaugh, stated: the government is there to represent you...not serve you.
You can't really argue the details until you have the facts.
QuoteEvertime I think of Obsama calling the Constitution a "negative" document I want to puke. The big brains who originally set up our governement designed the limits/checks & balances to protect citizens from the same power abuses they ran from in England (and we are so close to allowing a recurrence of if we don't keep a tight rein on Washington)
Not to wade in too deep here, but this isn't just a squidgy feels-like-racism thing. Break the term down to its etymology:
"Obsama" first and foremost labels him as "Other." "Obsama" is to say he's not one of US. He's one of, you know, THEM. It alludes to the idea that he's a Muslim, and therefore, of course, a terrorist (I mean - Osama! why he's the worst of all and he's basically right here in our midst! Obama! Osama! taking over our country!) And he is a secret Muslim terrorist because he was of course not born here, and therefore an illegitimate President to boot. It's a multi-layered racist sandwich. There are perhaps 11 or 12 intolerant, ignorant, ridiculous connotations wrapped up in that one slur.
And the funny thing is, my real beef with the term isn't that you believe it to be true. It's that you do in fact know that it's stupid, but you take some sort of perverse pleasure in further muddying the waters. 38% of this country isn't convinced President Obama was born here. (24% firmly believe he was not, 14% aren't sure.)
38%! of this country! believes that 9 months ago there was a coup d'etat in this country. Thus, the other 62% of us have to endure the ever-escalating ranting rallies of the armed militia / I want my country back wingnuttery while you sit on the sidelines giggling. Kudos. You're on the side of the angels.
But whatever.
More than just intellectual dishonesty, outright dishonesty should really have no place in this discussion.
QuoteEvertime I think of Obsama calling the Constitution a "negative" document I want to puke.
In 2001 Obama gave an interview to NPR (WBEZ in Chicago)
The actual quote in full:
"If you look at the victories and failures of the civil rights movement, and its litigation strategy in the court, I think where it succeeded was to vest formal rights in previously dispossessed peoples, so that I would now have the right to vote, I would now be able to sit at a lunch counter and order and as long as I could pay for it I'd be okay.
But The Supreme Court never ventured into the more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society. And to that extent as radical as I think people tried to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn't that radical. It didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as it's been interpreted, and Warren Court interpreted in the same way that generally
the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties, says what the states can't do to you, says what the federal government can't do to you, but it doesn't say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf. And that hasn't shifted.
One of the, I think, the tragedies of the civil rights movement, was because the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about change, and in some ways we still stuffer from that."
*
"negative liberties" means that the Constitution spends a lot of time telling the Government what it CANNOT do - ie, the government can't hold you without filing charges or granting you access to representation - and not nearly as much time outlining what the Government SHOULD be doing.
Personally, I might like to see the Supreme Court rule that the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" means that every American is entitled to a safety net of affordable health care, but that's not, historically, what the courts were set up for.
In the quote you haphazardly tried to slag him with, he was saying that the tragedy of the civil rights movement was that it was too court-focused. Its primary goals were court victories (ruling that you CANNOT discriminate) as opposed to changing hearts and minds - and therefore, how society operates organically, so we still live with the backlash today. He was making a case against using courts to implement broad social goals - which, last time I checked, was a
conservative position.
*
I have a good friend with kidney disease. Last year he was insured, and his insurance company was billed about $750 every three months for the blood work he has done to check his kidney function - of which he only paid $58. This year he finds himself uninsured, and the same hospital bills him - this is not a joke - just under $2700 for the same goddamn blood work. It's not that he is now on the hook for the full $750, it's that hospital charges + 300% more for the same procedure to its uninsured patients because they don't have the muscle of a big group negotiating prices for them. And because he has a pre-existing condition... no insurance for him until he can find a big enough company to hire/absorb him.
But that's not even the most inhumane part. The most inhumane part is that if he'd just get it over with and get sick enough to go into full-on kidney failure, well then he'd be dropped into Medicaid and go on permanent disability for the rest of his life. If we let him get sick enough, we'll pay for him to sit at home for the rest of his life, but we won't set up a system fair enough for him to pay a reasonable amount for his treatment so he can keep working and be a productive member of society.
Somebody. Please explain to me this vehement, fist-pumping, flag-waving American pride you have in our current system?
Because I really don't think you people have a f*cking clue what you're talking about.
QuoteEvertime I think of Obsama calling the Constitution a "negative" document I want to puke.
The unseriousness of your effort breaks my heart.
Bear Sin Rug? I'm racist because I believe in small federal government. You are out there man.
I never called him "Osbama"....that was another poster. And frankly, I could give a shit what emails your evil Conservative friends send you. I don't buy into that shit so don't put me into the category of people who believe he is a non-Citizen Muslim America-hater. I think he wants the best for this country. Don't I have the right to disagree with the direction?
I actually respect the shit out of Obama the man. His story is pretty inspiring. However, I am not a fan of his politics. I could give a shit what color he is. The fact that you called me racist for speaking against what I feel is a bad policy decision is extremely ridiculous. The intensity of the opposition has nothing to do with his race (it may for some people, but why dwell on the biggots), it has to do with what some people is a radical change in American policy.....
Get over yourself. Just because you are liberal leaning doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with you wants to kill black people while starving poor people.
If people don't think racism is a factor in some of the noise coming from the republican party ( aka News Corp ) they are naive. Just because we elected a president doesn't mean racism is dead, it's just being repackaged as being anti-big government and " free market" " capitalism". Where the fuck was all that diatribe when George Bush was in office. Give me a break and come up with some new material and get to work on a fucking health care bill.
Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up. Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.
I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama. lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country. Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"
QuoteOnce again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up. Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.
I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama. lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country. Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"
IAWTP
QuoteOnce again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up. Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.
I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama. lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country. Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"
Amen. It's about coming together to fix the problems, and we can do it if the politics are put to the side.
QuoteQuoteOnce again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up. Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.
I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama. lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country. Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"
IAWTP
eh?
QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up. Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.
I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama. lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country. Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"
IAWTP
eh?
That was me being a geek. IAWTP- I agree with this post.
QuoteOnce again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up. Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.
I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama. lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country. Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"
i agree. camille makes a lot of sense (as usual)
bear sin rug called you racist because you defended 'obsama' as NON-RACIST dig, you claim it's a term that means Anti-American. as camille pointed out, you needed to be called out on that BS.
i agree w/you about returning govt back to state/local authority but move out of the 19th Century. EVERYONE hates big govt, or everyone says they do, until it's to protect or maintain some policy you want. i'm curious as to your ideas about how healthcare can be reformed on a state/local level? for example, medicare is a federal program-- another example, if one state mandated that insur companies had to allow pre-existing conditions, wouldn't you just move to another state? state and local politics are just as corrupt (well i live in NJ so ..) so would insurance REFORM happen? hmmmmm you have more faith than i do.
I live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system. If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work ;D...
QuoteQuoteQuoteOnce again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up. Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.
I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama. lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country. Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"
i agree. camille makes a lot of sense (as usual)
bear sin rug called you racist because you defended 'obsama' as NON-RACIST dig, you claim it's a term that means Anti-American. as camille pointed out, you needed to be called out on that BS.
I wasn't defending what he said.....I was stating that bear sin rug has no idea if MMJ Fanatic is a racist. To say someone is racist without knowing is extremely ridiculous. How would you like it if someone called you racist for disagreeing with someone, making fun of someone, or being rude to someone? That seems to be the America we live in now. All we do nowadays is accuse people of being racist....it makes people feel good about themselves to call someone a racist. It's also an easy and lazy way to win an argument.
And as you can see by MMJ Fanatic's post above, it was a misunderstanding anyway. I bet bear sin rug feels like an idiot.
not saying whether MMJFan is a racist or not but i'm suspecting bear sin rug has read enough of his posts over the years to conclude that it wasn't a slip of the keyboard (maybe it was, maybe it wasn't); i don't get your logic of, if he makes a racist statement, that doesn't mean he's a racist. hmmmm...does he need to make 10 statements? in 4 languages?
i'm not calling MMJ fan a racist, it probably WAS a mistake, just defending BSR's responses.
QuoteI live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system. If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work ;D...
Ill-i NOIZE---you've got the real BLAGO there! maybe it rivals NJ, not sure. We probably have more bodies (in the Hudson).
QuoteQuoteI live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system. If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work ;D...
Ill-i NOIZE---you've got the real BLAGO there! maybe it rivals NJ, not sure. We probably have more bodies (in the Hudson).
You might have more bodies in the Hudson, but in IL. those bodies could vote. :)
Obama's response to the racism argument is brilliant. Kudos to him.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/09/21/obama-on-letterman-i-was-actually-black-before-the-election/?icid=main|classic|dl4|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2009%2F09%2F21%2Fobama-on-letterman-i-was-actually-black-before-the-election%2F
:)
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/041b5acaf5/protect-insurance-companies-psa
QuoteQuoteQuoteI live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system. If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work ;D...
Ill-i NOIZE---you've got the real BLAGO there! maybe it rivals NJ, not sure. We probably have more bodies (in the Hudson).
You might have more bodies in the Hudson, but in IL. those bodies could vote. :)
Yes they can my fellow Illinoisian
:-?
Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?
Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with. ;)
Quote:-?
Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?
Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with. ;)
The debates and discussions are important and needed. Its when they turn into the he said she said drama that causes the problem. Often times then people are arguing about being a racist or not rather than discussing the importance of healthcare reform- without the hatred- facts, respectable opinions from both sides of the spectrum and some real talk...
QuoteQuote:-?
Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?
Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with. ;)
The debates and discussions are important and needed. Its when they turn into the he said she said drama that causes the problem. Often times then people are arguing about being a racist or not rather than discussing the importance of healthcare reform- without the hatred- facts, respectable opinions from both sides of the spectrum and some real talk...
I agree wholeheartedly, but this thread has lasted for what, 17 pages with not many contributions at all to the actual topic at hand? I'm all for the discussion, but maybe we should move this to Off-Topic Ramblings instead of dragging Jim's post into it.
QuoteQuoteQuote:-?
Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?
Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with. ;)
The debates and discussions are important and needed. Its when they turn into the he said she said drama that causes the problem. Often times then people are arguing about being a racist or not rather than discussing the importance of healthcare reform- without the hatred- facts, respectable opinions from both sides of the spectrum and some real talk...
I agree wholeheartedly, but this thread has lasted for what, 17 pages with not many contributions at all to the actual topic at hand? I'm all for the discussion, but maybe we should move this to Off-Topic Ramblings instead of dragging Jim's post into it.
Jim's post revealed the major problems within our government- this forum community is our country on a smaller scale. Many different backgrounds and ideals come together in one place. An issue arises where ideological sides are taken, and even people who were drawn together with a common love are reduced to name callings, accusations, and overall hatred (maybe too strong of a word) towards one another's opinions.
Maybe the thread should be moved to off-topic, but I sort of feel that this is too important- maybe it should be right up front... there isn't enough discussion about what is happening here. I mean, its right in our faces and no one is saying anything about it! They are letting it go down, joining a side, or sitting back and watching- like its some sort of reality show.
I dunno- just my opinion I suppose.
I find it extremely typical and non-amusing that a disagreeing post has been completely wiped out yet the person trying to dismiss my charges quotes and personal attacks remain (albeit the quotes now have no clarity without the source). Nice
P.S.--everyone throwing the R word at me can suckafuck because the incident y'all refer to was, is and will always be a typo. Kudos to BHO for figuring out how to dupe the masses into putting him in charge of the greatest country. Just because 3% more voted for him over the alternative doesn't mean everyone is required to owe him allegiance in every change he wants to make--especially if it runs counter to the way this country was designed to run. Maybe everyone clamoring for this type of system should lobby at their individual state levels or maybe insurance companies should be allowed to compete across the country and over state lines--abiding by guideline set by the feds. The fed is destined to screw this up.
Quote
Maybe everyone clamoring for this type of system should lobby at their individual state levels or maybe insurance companies should be allowed to compete across the country and over state lines--abiding by guideline set by the feds. The fed is destined to screw this up.
even if the fed sets the rules, a floor, state laws vary enough that this idea is WORST thing the repubs have said. it's not workable at all.
QuoteI find it extremely typical and non-amusing that a disagreeing post has been completely wiped out yet the person trying to dismiss my charges quotes and personal attacks remain (albeit the quotes now have no clarity without the source). Nice
P.S.--everyone throwing the R word at me can suckafuck because the incident y'all refer to was, is and will always be a typo. Kudos to BHO for figuring out how to dupe the masses into putting him in charge of the greatest country. Just because 3% more voted for him over the alternative doesn't mean everyone is required to owe him allegiance in every change he wants to make--especially if it runs counter to the way this country was designed to run. Maybe everyone clamoring for this type of system should lobby at their individual state levels or maybe insurance companies should be allowed to compete across the country and over state lines--abiding by guideline set by the feds. The fed is destined to screw this up.
You sound like a Democrat from three years ago. You know when the Republicans insisted everyone support Bush and his wars despite the majority of the country voting against him in both general elections. Some perspective would serve you well. This is not the first time you've been accused of being a racist. It's likely not just some strange coincidence.
Quote
everyone throwing the R word at me can suckafuck because the incident y'all refer to was, is and will always be a typo.
You had a typo and spelled Obsama instead of Obama. 100's of words in your posts and you just "happened" to put Obsama instead of Obama.
You don't like Obama and you just "happened" to have a typo and put Obsama.
And you expect us to believe this?
Keep saying it's a typo; keep saying it until you believe it.
(http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/oldjpg/obsama.jpg)
QuoteQuote
Maybe everyone clamoring for this type of system should lobby at their individual state levels or maybe insurance companies should be allowed to compete across the country and over state lines--abiding by guideline set by the feds. The fed is destined to screw this up.
even if the fed sets the rules, a floor, state laws vary enough that this idea is WORST thing the repubs have said. it's not workable at all.
Can you say a little more about this? This was actually one of the Republican points I could sort of see agreeing with. I assume they would have to repeal the conflicting state laws, which could be a bear in itself.
QuoteQuoteQuote
Maybe everyone clamoring for this type of system should lobby at their individual state levels or maybe insurance companies should be allowed to compete across the country and over state lines--abiding by guideline set by the feds. The fed is destined to screw this up.
even if the fed sets the rules, a floor, state laws vary enough that this idea is WORST thing the repubs have said. it's not workable at all.
Can you say a little more about this? This was actually one of the Republican points I could sort of see agreeing with. I assume they would have to repeal the conflicting state laws, which could be a bear in itself.
i kind of see it as a race to the bottom. wouldn't all the insurance companies just relocate to delaware..? each state having it's own set of mandates, so like you said, conflict of laws, but when those companies relocate (state losing a lot of jobs), they'll ask for exemption from the mandates (living in NJ where we're a very consumer protected state) how would that work for things like mandatory hospital stays, etc. I think reform should come but it should still be a state regulated industry, like other insurance. each state has a stake in its citizens well-being, and if this happens, i think people will get insurance cheaper, but they'll be shocked by the quality of coverage.
so i guess it's workable, but i just think it'll hurt us in the end.
Quote
wouldn't all the insurance companies just relocate to delaware..?
Wouldn't they just do as other companies do (and as I assume many insurance companies already do) - incorporate in Delaware, but maintain the satellite offices?
Quotethey'll ask for exemption from the mandates (living in NJ where we're a very consumer protected state) how would that work for things like mandatory hospital stays, etc.
No doubt there would be a great deal of upheaval no matter how they approach it. Do you think the states would necessarily have to grant the exemptions?
QuoteI think reform should come but it should still be a state regulated industry, like other insurance. each state has a stake in its citizens well-being, and if this happens, i think people will get insurance cheaper, but they'll be shocked by the quality of coverage.
so i guess it's workable, but i just think it'll hurt us in the end.
Might just be arguing semantics, but doesn't the nation also have a stake in its citizens' well being?
I think one of the big problems with the current health insurance system is that the consumer's choices are often limited to the insurance plan that their employer chooses to provide, and insurance purchased independently of a group plan is cost-prohibitive.
I'm still trying to educate myself on these issues, so I have a lot of questions, but just wanted to say I'm enjoying (most of ;)) the discussion here.
QuoteQuote
wouldn't all the insurance companies just relocate to delaware..?
Wouldn't they just do as other companies do (and as I assume many insurance companies already do) - incorporate in Delaware, but maintain the satellite offices?
Quotethey'll ask for exemption from the mandates (living in NJ where we're a very consumer protected state) how would that work for things like mandatory hospital stays, etc.
No doubt there would be a great deal of upheaval no matter how they approach it. Do you think the states would necessarily have to grant the exemptions?
QuoteI think reform should come but it should still be a state regulated industry, like other insurance. each state has a stake in its citizens well-being, and if this happens, i think people will get insurance cheaper, but they'll be shocked by the quality of coverage.
so i guess it's workable, but i just think it'll hurt us in the end.
Might just be arguing semantics, but doesn't the nation also have a stake in its citizens' well being?
I think one of the big problems with the current health insurance system is that the consumer's choices are often limited to the insurance plan that their employer chooses to provide, and insurance purchased independently of a group plan is cost-prohibitive.
I'm still trying to educate myself on these issues, so I have a lot of questions, but just wanted to say I'm enjoying (most of ;)) the discussion here.
all your points are great. there should be more competition w/in the states but overall, i would like to leave things like the post office up to the fed gov and leave the rest up to states.
and the states wouldn't have to grant exemptions but inevitably they will, just seems like it'll get too political what w/the lobbyists, etc.
in any case, it'll create more lawyer jobs.
WEEEEEE!
A question I have is wouldn't the lower price provided by a public option actully create some competition in the insurance market place and in theory cause some of the insurance providers to lower their costs?
Quote
all your points are great. there should be more competition w/in the states but overall, i would like to leave things like the post office up to the fed gov and leave the rest up to states.
and the states wouldn't have to grant exemptions but inevitably they will, just seems like it'll get too political what w/the lobbyists, etc.
in any case, it'll create more lawyer jobs. WEEEEEE!
I agree that the states are in a unique position to assess the needs of their citizens. And I agree that the health insurance lobby would get out of hand, but let's face it, it already has. Any major changes in the current system are going to be ridiculously difficult to implement. That said, I'm hopeful it can be done because I don't think our current system does a very good job of serving its customers.
WEEEEEEEE! for more lawyer jobs indeed! Though I suspect we may be in the minority of people who are excited about that ;D ;D ;D
OK Alady and Pennylane are in and that's IT. NO MORE LAWYERS. ;)
QuoteQuote
everyone throwing the R word at me can suckafuck because the incident y'all refer to was, is and will always be a typo.
You had a typo and spelled Obsama instead of Obama. 100's of words in your posts and you just "happened" to put Obsama instead of Obama.
You don't like Obama and you just "happened" to have a typo and put Obsama.
And you expect us to believe this?
Keep saying it's a typo; keep saying it until you believe it.
(http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/oldjpg/obsama.jpg)
That's funny--the post is gone so now you can't prove there were no other mispellings, neither can I--but am sure there were a few since I don't proof obsessively, so how about admitting you know nothing about me including my views on race--which happen to unbiased though you'll probably never buy that unless you see me kiss Obama's hand. Besides I know you're just trying to be a role model ultra liberal and use the liberal transference-defense to label others as you are. So keep calling everyone else the R word until you believe you aren't one yourself. :D
QuoteQuoteI find it extremely typical and non-amusing that a disagreeing post has been completely wiped out yet the person trying to dismiss my charges quotes and personal attacks remain (albeit the quotes now have no clarity without the source). Nice
P.S.--everyone throwing the R word at me can suckafuck because the incident y'all refer to was, is and will always be a typo. Kudos to BHO for figuring out how to dupe the masses into putting him in charge of the greatest country. Just because 3% more voted for him over the alternative doesn't mean everyone is required to owe him allegiance in every change he wants to make--especially if it runs counter to the way this country was designed to run. Maybe everyone clamoring for this type of system should lobby at their individual state levels or maybe insurance companies should be allowed to compete across the country and over state lines--abiding by guideline set by the feds. The fed is destined to screw this up.
You sound like a Democrat from three years ago. You know when the Republicans insisted everyone support Bush and his wars despite the majority of the country voting against him in both general elections. Some perspective would serve you well. This is not the first time you've been accused of being a racist. It's likely not just some strange coincidence.
Except the Dems of 3 yrs ago were the biggest drama queens and the most vitriolic ever. :)
The word of the day is "TRANSFERENCE": the defense technique used by liberals to label all dissenting parties with negative adjectives (e.g.--"racists" "nazis") when it is they who actually live those characteristics.
QuoteQuoteQuote
everyone throwing the R word at me can suckafuck because the incident y'all refer to was, is and will always be a typo.
You had a typo and spelled Obsama instead of Obama. 100's of words in your posts and you just "happened" to put Obsama instead of Obama.
You don't like Obama and you just "happened" to have a typo and put Obsama.
And you expect us to believe this?
Keep saying it's a typo; keep saying it until you believe it.
(http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/oldjpg/obsama.jpg)
That's funny--the post is gone so now you can't prove there were no other mispellings, neither can I--but am sure there were a few since I don't proof obsessively, so how about admitting you know nothing about me including my views on race--which happen to unbiased though you'll probably never buy that unless you see me kiss Obama's hand. Besides I know you're just trying to be a role model ultra liberal and use the liberal transference-defense to label others as you are. So keep calling everyone else the R word until you believe you aren't one yourself. :D
you're the one who dropped the racist term, not me. God help your racist soul.
(http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/oldjpg/obsama.jpg)
QuoteQuote
all your points are great. there should be more competition w/in the states but overall, i would like to leave things like the post office up to the fed gov and leave the rest up to states.
and the states wouldn't have to grant exemptions but inevitably they will, just seems like it'll get too political what w/the lobbyists, etc.
in any case, it'll create more lawyer jobs. WEEEEEE!
I agree that the states are in a unique position to assess the needs of their citizens. And I agree that the health insurance lobby would get out of hand, but let's face it, it already has. Any major changes in the current system are going to be ridiculously difficult to implement. That said, I'm hopeful it can be done because I don't think our current system does a very good job of serving its customers.
WEEEEEEEE! for more lawyer jobs indeed! Though I suspect we may be in the minority of people who are excited about that ;D ;D ;D
Good posts :)
I have to agree, when you break these things down... it's astounding anything ever works at all. Astounding. So many angles, so many moving parts and questions.
I remember listening to an NPR report a while back and they were interviewing a doctor from Columbia Presbyterian. He said the number of people employed by the hospital for billing/collection services vastly outnumbered the people employed for health-giving services. It was something like 700 nurses/doctors/surgeons vs. 900+ billing people.
Right now, every insurer in this country (and per current law, they are all regional providers) negotiates different prices for thousands of different procedures with their regional hospitals.
For something like a basic MRI, one insurer will negotiate, say, 40 different prices - one for each hospital in their service area. And actually that same hospital might get eight different prices for that one procedure from that one insurance company, depending on whether that patient came to that insurer thru an HMO, a PPO, and indemnity plan, etc...
Now, as you can imagine, most patients with even the most routine trauma case will have many, many tests, procedures, you name it. The insurer will haggle over the validity of every single one. So the hospital employs an army of people to haggle back. Often times, the doctors themselves spend a ton of time battling with the insurers, imploring them to pay for a procedure that doctor was convinced was necessary.
Escalating administrative costs are one of the major drivers in escalating healthcare costs, not to mention doctor dissatisfaction with their job.
I'm sorry to say, I think selling insurance across state lines would only exacerbate that problem.
We think it's confusing now when our doctor's office has to find out what our insurance plan does and does not cover? Think how it'd be if our doctor's office had to know what 1500 different insurance companies' various products covered.
All of the endless red tape would only add to the upward cost curve. Let alone... oof it makes me kind of nauseous just thinking about it... you think you bought a good policy, you've paid your premiums, but now your Kansas-based policy is refusing to cover that procedure at your Kentucky-based hospital. When you bought the policy, they covered that hospital, that doctor, but then last year they changed, and on and on... and where would you go to sue for your rights? Kansas? Kentucky? Federal? Every state, right now, has different consumer-protection laws governing how badly your insurer can screw you. What happens to all those existing laws? Shall we write more laws to govern which current laws apply in cross-state insurance law? It really does make me nauseous.
*
Mind you - I don't have the answer - not even close. But I'm not sure "unleashing the power of the free market" is good for this particular problem.
i think it would also be confusing w/HIPAA regs varying from state to state, too. some (and more and more) fed regs, but generally it's up to states.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
everyone throwing the R word at me can suckafuck because the incident y'all refer to was, is and will always be a typo.
You had a typo and spelled Obsama instead of Obama. 100's of words in your posts and you just "happened" to put Obsama instead of Obama.
You don't like Obama and you just "happened" to have a typo and put Obsama.
And you expect us to believe this?
Keep saying it's a typo; keep saying it until you believe it.
(http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/oldjpg/obsama.jpg)
That's funny--the post is gone so now you can't prove there were no other mispellings, neither can I--but am sure there were a few since I don't proof obsessively, so how about admitting you know nothing about me including my views on race--which happen to unbiased though you'll probably never buy that unless you see me kiss Obama's hand. Besides I know you're just trying to be a role model ultra liberal and use the liberal transference-defense to label others as you are. So keep calling everyone else the R word until you believe you aren't one yourself. :D
you're the one who dropped the racist term, not me. God help your racist soul.
(http://jeffersonian.therealgunguys.com/oldjpg/obsama.jpg)
Yea you're really funny with your cute pics--I find it interesting that you are the one posting these potentially offensive images. God help your puny little mind!
Quote
For something like a basic MRI, one insurer will negotiate, say, 40 different prices - one for each hospital in their service area. And actually that same hospital might get eight different prices for that one procedure from that one insurance company, depending on whether that patient came to that insurer thru an HMO, a PPO, and indemnity plan, etc...
Now, as you can imagine, most patients with even the most routine trauma case will have many, many tests, procedures, you name it. The insurer will haggle over the validity of every single one. So the hospital employs an army of people to haggle back. Often times, the doctors themselves spend a ton of time battling with the insurers, imploring them to pay for a procedure that doctor was convinced was necessary.
Escalating administrative costs are one of the major drivers in escalating healthcare costs, not to mention doctor dissatisfaction with their job.
I'm sorry to say, I think selling insurance across state lines would only exacerbate that problem.
We think it's confusing now when our doctor's office has to find out what our insurance plan does and does not cover? Think how it'd be if our doctor's office had to know what 1500 different insurance companies' various products covered.
All of the endless red tape would only add to the upward cost curve. Let alone... oof it makes me kind of nauseous just thinking about it... you think you bought a good policy, you've paid your premiums, but now your Kansas-based policy is refusing to cover that procedure at your Kentucky-based hospital. When you bought the policy, they covered that hospital, that doctor, but then last year they changed, and on and on... and where would you go to sue for your rights? Kansas? Kentucky? Federal? Every state, right now, has different consumer-protection laws governing how badly your insurer can screw you. What happens to all those existing laws? Shall we write more laws to govern which current laws apply in cross-state insurance law? It really does make me nauseous.
Ooookay. This is the kind of breakdown I was looking for. Thanks camille!
God, it all just makes me want to go single-payer. ;D
And see...stuff like this really exposes the flaws in our current system:
http://www.bloodshotrecords.com/news/sygc-van-accident
I'll Pass on 'Opting Out'
The Democrats' all-new "opt out" idea for health care reform is the latest fig leaf for a total government takeover of the health care system.
Democrats tell us they've been trying to nationalize health care for 65 years, but the first anyone heard of the "opt out" provision was about a week ago. They keep changing the language so people can't figure out what's going on.
The most important fact about the "opt out" scheme allegedly allowing states to decline government health insurance is that a state can't "opt out" of paying for it. All 50 states will pay for it. A state legislature can only opt out of allowing its own citizens to receive the benefits of a federal program they're paying for.
It's like a movie theater offering a "money back guarantee" and then explaining, you don't get your money back, but you don't have to stay and watch the movie if you don't like it. That's not what most people are thinking when they hear the words "opt out." The term more likely to come to mind is "scam."
While congressional Democrats act indignant that Republicans would intransigently oppose a national health care plan that now magnanimously allows states to "opt out," other liberals are being cockily honest about the "opt out" scheme.
On The Huffington Post, the first sentence of the article on the opt-out plan is: "The public option lives."
Andrew Sullivan gloats on his blog, "Imagine Republicans in state legislatures having to argue and posture against an affordable health insurance plan for the folks, as O'Reilly calls them, while evil liberals provide it elsewhere."
But the only reason government health insurance will be more "affordable" than private health insurance is that taxpayers will be footing the bill. That's something that can't be opted out of under the "opt out" plan.
Which brings us right back to the question of whether the government or the free market provides better services at better prices. There are roughly 1 million examples of the free market doing a better job and the government doing a worse job. In fact, there is only one essential service the government does better: Keeping Dennis Kucinich off the streets.
So, naturally, liberals aren't sure. In Democratic circles, the jury's still out on free market economics. It's not settled science like global warming or Darwinian evolution. But in the meantime, they'd like to spend trillions of dollars to remake our entire health care system on a European socialist model.
Sometimes the evidence for the superiority of the free market is hidden in liberals' own obtuse reporting.
In the past few years, The New York Times has indignantly reported that doctors' appointments for Botox can be obtained much faster than appointments to check on possibly cancerous moles. The paper's entire editorial staff was enraged by this preferential treatment for Botox patients, with the exception of a strangely silent Maureen Dowd.
As the Times reported: "In some dermatologists' offices, freer-spending cosmetic patients are given appointments more quickly than medical patients for whom health insurance pays fixed reimbursement fees."
As the kids say: Duh.
This is the problem with all third-party payor systems -- which is already the main problem with health care in America and will become inescapable under universal health care.
Not only do the free-market segments of medicine produce faster appointments and shorter waiting lines, but they also produce more innovation and price drops. Blindly pursuing profits, other companies are working overtime to produce cheaper, better alternatives to Botox. The war on wrinkles is proceeding faster than the war on cancer, declared by President Nixon in 1971.
In 1960, 50 percent of all health care spending was paid out of pocket directly by the consumer. By 1999, only 15 percent of health care spending was paid for by the consumer. The government's share had gone from 24 percent to 46 percent. At the same time, IRS regulations made it a nightmare to obtain private health insurance.
The reason you can't buy health insurance as easily and cheaply as you can buy car insurance -- or a million other products and services available on the free market -- is that during World War II, FDR imposed wage and price controls. Employers couldn't bid for employees with higher wages, so they bid for them by adding health insurance to the overall compensation package.
Although employees were paying for their own health insurance in lower wages and salaries, their health insurance premiums never passed through their bank accounts, so it seemed like employer-provided health insurance was free.
Employers were writing off their employee insurance plans as a business expense, but when the IRS caught on to what employers were doing, they tried to tax employer-provided health insurance as wages. But, by then, workers liked their "free" health insurance, voters rebelled, and the IRS backed down.
So now, employer-provided health insurance is subsidized not only by the employees themselves through lower wages and salaries, but also by all taxpayers who have to make up the difference for this massive tax deduction.
How many people are stuck in jobs they hate and aren't good at, rather than going out and doing something useful, because they need the health insurance from their employers? I'm not just talking about MSNBC anchors -- I mean throughout the entire economy.
Almost everything wrong with our health care system comes from government interference with the free market. If the health care system is broken, then fix it. Don't try to invent a new one premised on all the bad ideas that are causing problems in the first place.
MMJfanatic,
are there ANY reforms that you'd vote for? just curious as to what you think should be done, if anything.
my mom's hospital bill for 6 days in Pittsburgh Hosp was 240K -----jes sayin'
i'm not championing or beating down the public option, but i'd like to hear some ideas.
also, for those states (like Wyoming, which probably has 1 insurance company covering the market) that choose to opt out, pelosi has already said there will be some kind of exemption so they're not paying for a program they're not entitled to receive. hey, if a state chooses not to offer the public option to its citizens, let them continue to regulate it at a state level. when medicare first started, they said it was going to take out private insurers and that didn't happen, did it? public option (IMO) isn't a slippery slope toward socialization. seems like about 40% of healthcare is socialized now anyway--- most people don't WANT a govt run plan, think they're probably choose a competitively priced Aetna plan any day.
QuoteI'll Pass on 'Opting Out'
The Democrats' all-new "opt out" idea for health care reform is the latest fig leaf for a total government takeover of the health care system.
Democrats tell us they've been trying to nationalize health care for 65 years, but the first anyone heard of the "opt out" provision was about a week ago. They keep changing the language so people can't figure out what's going on.
The most important fact about the "opt out" scheme allegedly allowing states to decline government health insurance is that a state can't "opt out" of paying for it. All 50 states will pay for it. A state legislature can only opt out of allowing its own citizens to receive the benefits of a federal program they're paying for.
It's like a movie theater offering a "money back guarantee" and then explaining, you don't get your money back, but you don't have to stay and watch the movie if you don't like it. That's not what most people are thinking when they hear the words "opt out." The term more likely to come to mind is "scam."
While congressional Democrats act indignant that Republicans would intransigently oppose a national health care plan that now magnanimously allows states to "opt out," other liberals are being cockily honest about the "opt out" scheme.
On The Huffington Post, the first sentence of the article on the opt-out plan is: "The public option lives."
Andrew Sullivan gloats on his blog, "Imagine Republicans in state legislatures having to argue and posture against an affordable health insurance plan for the folks, as O'Reilly calls them, while evil liberals provide it elsewhere."
But the only reason government health insurance will be more "affordable" than private health insurance is that taxpayers will be footing the bill. That's something that can't be opted out of under the "opt out" plan.
Which brings us right back to the question of whether the government or the free market provides better services at better prices. There are roughly 1 million examples of the free market doing a better job and the government doing a worse job. In fact, there is only one essential service the government does better: Keeping Dennis Kucinich off the streets.
So, naturally, liberals aren't sure. In Democratic circles, the jury's still out on free market economics. It's not settled science like global warming or Darwinian evolution. But in the meantime, they'd like to spend trillions of dollars to remake our entire health care system on a European socialist model.
Sometimes the evidence for the superiority of the free market is hidden in liberals' own obtuse reporting.
In the past few years, The New York Times has indignantly reported that doctors' appointments for Botox can be obtained much faster than appointments to check on possibly cancerous moles. The paper's entire editorial staff was enraged by this preferential treatment for Botox patients, with the exception of a strangely silent Maureen Dowd.
As the Times reported: "In some dermatologists' offices, freer-spending cosmetic patients are given appointments more quickly than medical patients for whom health insurance pays fixed reimbursement fees."
As the kids say: Duh.
This is the problem with all third-party payor systems -- which is already the main problem with health care in America and will become inescapable under universal health care.
Not only do the free-market segments of medicine produce faster appointments and shorter waiting lines, but they also produce more innovation and price drops. Blindly pursuing profits, other companies are working overtime to produce cheaper, better alternatives to Botox. The war on wrinkles is proceeding faster than the war on cancer, declared by President Nixon in 1971.
In 1960, 50 percent of all health care spending was paid out of pocket directly by the consumer. By 1999, only 15 percent of health care spending was paid for by the consumer. The government's share had gone from 24 percent to 46 percent. At the same time, IRS regulations made it a nightmare to obtain private health insurance.
The reason you can't buy health insurance as easily and cheaply as you can buy car insurance -- or a million other products and services available on the free market -- is that during World War II, FDR imposed wage and price controls. Employers couldn't bid for employees with higher wages, so they bid for them by adding health insurance to the overall compensation package.
Although employees were paying for their own health insurance in lower wages and salaries, their health insurance premiums never passed through their bank accounts, so it seemed like employer-provided health insurance was free.
Employers were writing off their employee insurance plans as a business expense, but when the IRS caught on to what employers were doing, they tried to tax employer-provided health insurance as wages. But, by then, workers liked their "free" health insurance, voters rebelled, and the IRS backed down.
So now, employer-provided health insurance is subsidized not only by the employees themselves through lower wages and salaries, but also by all taxpayers who have to make up the difference for this massive tax deduction.
How many people are stuck in jobs they hate and aren't good at, rather than going out and doing something useful, because they need the health insurance from their employers? I'm not just talking about MSNBC anchors -- I mean throughout the entire economy.
Almost everything wrong with our health care system comes from government interference with the free market. If the health care system is broken, then fix it. Don't try to invent a new one premised on all the bad ideas that are causing problems in the first place.
We could talk about this MMJ Fanatic, but my problem is that you didn't actually write a single word of it. Ann Coulter did.
This is an incredibly complicated subject, and as pennylane just demonstrated, it's as personal, as gut-wrenching as it gets. It's heated, understandably. And everyone gets to have an opinion, but for the purposes of this discussion it would be helpful if you had an opinion of your own, because from where I sit, I honestly don't think you understand a word of the legislation you seem so hell bent on denigrating.
In 8 years, Bush did absolutely nothing to reform (our even consider reforming) our screwed up health care system; I find that un-American.
Just in case you think I think the bill is perfect, MMJ Fan...
The House version of the bill that Pelosi released today does not have the Waxman amendment that would've but the hammer down on big pharma to speed the production of generic alternatives to meds such as Herceptin, which millions of breast cancer patients the world over use every day, yet somehow still costs around $200K a year for most Americans. Pelosi instead adopted the Joe f*cking Barton Amendment, which - as it's currently written - does everything legislatively possible to allow big Pharma to screw Americans for years to come.
I'm hoping hoping hoping some of these things get cleaned up in the Amendments process.
'Cause here's the thing, government can in fact be a force for good. Rep. Waxman (D-CA) has been around a while. In the 80s he got a letter from one of his constituents - the mom of a kid who had Tourette's. She was beside herself because the drug that had done great things for her kid was about to be axed from production because there just wasn't a big enough market for it.
So Waxman authored, fought for, and passed the Orphan Drug Act in 1983. Thousands of rare diseases ("orphan" diseases = too small to attract big research $$) - everything from Tourette's to sickle cell anemia to several childhood cancers now have medications (and few of those childhood cancers even have cures) because of that legislation. It provided longer periods of patent protection and strong tax incentives for long-odds, specialized research. And research in those areas bloomed. Spectacularly.
Just one shining example - AZT was pulled out of mothballs and further studied as a possible rare cancer treatment under the auspices of an Orphan Grant. The research took a left turn and didn't pan out for cancer, but became the #1 treatment for AIDS the world over. Spectacularly.
And the frustrating part is, the patent extensions big Pharma lobbies so vehemently for today (which the Barton amendment gives away) are born of the precedent the Orphan Drug Act set - it set up the Herceptin fight we have today.
So. No question - a lot of this legislative work is sloppy and imperfect and so very 1 step forward, 2 steps back, and yet Waxman's still in there fighting. He's still writing amendments, he's still working. The Orphan Drug Act has been worth BILLIONS of dollars to big pharma. He's saying fair is fair and you deserve to profit from your work, but - a the very least - why are Americans singled out to be screwed worse than the citizens of every other country on the planet? Why don't we get to negotiate like everybody else?
A valid question. I don't understand what Pelosi's doing. I hope more people notice. I hope she's flamed for it and eventually backs down. We'll see. And I say "We'll see" because it could happen. Government can, in fact, be a force for good.
If the free market ruled all - set aside the 200K people in this country that suffer from rare diseases that now have treatments - many many millions of people with AIDS would have died decades ago. It's a big freakin' deal.
Know hope.
Camille:
Based on your statement of the Orphan Drug act, is that a problem of patent legislation? I'm doing a lot of reading on the strangulation of creativity by big copyright, so I was wondering if big pharma is pulling similar strings in the patent world.
I remember being appalled a year or so ago when a company received a patent on a gene. You know, those things that occur naturally within all of us. In a strange, technical way, you don't own it.
QuoteCamille:
Based on your statement of the Orphan Drug act, is that a problem of patent legislation? I'm doing a lot of reading on the strangulation of creativity by big copyright, so I was wondering if big pharma is pulling similar strings in the patent world.
I remember being appalled a year or so ago when a company received a patent on a gene. You know, those things that occur naturally within all of us. In a strange, technical way, you don't own it.
It is a problem with patent legislation, but much like the whole "patenting of a gene" thing, it's crazy complicated. It's always been a trade off.
Patent law says that the government will secure a little monopoly for you for 20 years in exchange for you revealing all of your work secrets. And the government will then unleash your secrets into the public domain after you've had a chance to profit. All the way back to the Founding Fathers they were worried that we should get scientific findings out into the public as soon as possible to encourage further work - patent protection was the compromise they struck.
And by the way - there's no law saying you have to patent anything. You could go "Bush's Baked Beans" style and just guard your work like a trade secret and hope no one else comes up with the same formula. There's no law saying you have to hand over your secrets, it's just saying if you want legal exclusivity, you can have it and make a lot of money off of it, and in exchange for that you have to share your work with everyone else, hopefully spurring further innovation.
When it all started it was pretty clear-cut. But then in the 30s the courts ruled that you could patent custom breeds of plants, and then in the 80s a scientist from GE created a new bacteria that could eat petroleum - ostensibly you could dump a ton of that bacteria in San Francisco Bay and the little guys would help clean up what the Exxon Valdez left behind. It was a 5-4 decision to award the patent and the dissenting opinion said "we are under the impression that life isn't patentable." But they were in the minority, and now life is in fact, patentable. It just can't be patented in its natural state - that bacteria didn't exist before that guy hybridized it. That's the argument with patenting a gene - they say it's been extracted, purified, and re-engineered in a Petri dish (which no one was able to do before they did it) - thus making it novel and medically useful and not found - as it exists in that Petri dish - in nature. Who the hell knows anymore.
Anyways. The thing with the current big pharma strong-arming that's rooted in the Orphan Drug Act is that Congress bent over backwards to spur research that wasn't getting done and to spur production of drugs that were leaving the market because there was no profit motive in it. Now the drug companies are saying all drugs should enjoy those same "bend over backwards" tax-incentives and extended patent periods because all research is risky and you all should be thankful we do this at all. Waxman is saying - all the way back to the Constitution - patents exist to spur innovation. All you guys (big pharma) are doing now is putting the vast majority of your money into tv ads "ask your doctor..." and lawyers who fight for years to stave off losing patent protection( of say, Lipitor.) Rather than spurring further innovation, you're hunkering down to hang on to what you have - a sure payday - for as long as you can possibly ride it. He's saying you clearly don't want patent protection to have more money for research, you want patent protection so you never have to do research again.
Incidentally, Pfizer spent twice as much on advertising as they did on research last year.
But the every day pocketbook problem for US citizens is the fact that patent protection periods differ from country to country, so Pfizer struck a deal with generic drug makers in Australia, Canada, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Sweden and said - sure, we'll allow you produce generic Lipitor soon in those countries, no problem, and in return for our not holding that up, you agree not to produce any generics for the US for a very long time. If you come anywhere near the US, we will essentially bankrupt you by tying you up in court for years. And, seeing as how the US is the only country on the planet whose government says its not allowed to negotiate drug prices, that leaves Americans paying huge $$$$$ for meds that the rest of the world pays pennies for.
Such is life. Anyways, Waxman's trying to push back. Pelosi, as usual, is doing a less stellar job. We'll see...
That sounds like it is mirroring the copyright fights, where they take their royalties and put them into trusts that pay for lobbyists and lawyers to extend the term of the copyright to put more money into trusts and lawyers, etc.
Anyway, to your, or my previous point about the gene patenting, this was in Wired yesterday
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/genes/
Whatever, I don't need fucking healthcare. My immune system is impenetrable and my bones are made of steel. Sucks for the rest of you...