10 ideas MMJ
1. Don't tour with WSP and dont let the tappers in (dont need the hippy crowd sorry) Im sure Ill get bashed for this one and i do like the live stuff i have heard
2. Get some better merch (FAVORITE band they could make a fortune off me)
3. Put out DVD (i know its coming)
4. Play vintage theaters and ledgendary clubs only (with growth I know this is impossible)
5. Better videos
6. A Live CD would sell
7. A New Orleans gig would be nice later on
8. No Clear channel venues
9. Stay healthy you have something special
10. Keep in mind Wilco has done a great job at staying small and making a good living.
What MMJ has done a great job of: Albums to date have been a+, Sound team has been A+, Show locations have been great: europe and Japan can Feed you without having to be mainstream in the states, Reinvinting MMJ sound, managment a+, Live energy along with the song writing has been nothing short of AAA+++, most bands dont have both.
11 Do not record "A Jazz Odyssey"
Hopefully there's a bit of Jazz Odyssey in everything we play." Asked if the band would ever record Jazz Odyssey, Derek replied, "To record it, I think, would be to imprison a bird that must fly free."
I agree with most of your ideas. Most of the people on this board can't handle constructive criticism though, so except people to react like you just made fun of everyone's mama.
The one I have to take issue with is the not letting tapers in. Just because someone allows tapers doesn't mean that they're a Jamband or only appeal to hippies. Bob Dylan lets people tape and trade his shows and I wouldn't call him a hippie. I don't want phish and wsp fans to ruin music for me more than they already have. MMJ puts on a hell of a live show and not everyone can get to see one. I think that letting tapers in is a great move.
QuoteI agree with most of your ideas. Most of the people on this board can't handle constructive criticism though, so except people to react like you just made fun of everyone's mama.
The one I have to take issue with is the not letting tapers in. Just because someone allows tapers doesn't mean that they're a Jamband or only appeal to hippies. Bob Dylan lets people tape and trade his shows and I wouldn't call him a hippie. I don't want phish and wsp fans to ruin music for me more than they already have. MMJ puts on a hell of a live show and not everyone can get to see one. I think that letting tapers in is a great move.
Actually, if you don't say that Jim is sending us secret messages that he is selling out
and/or that the PR team sux ass, people are pretty open minded around here to CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.
But, if you come here saying stupid stuff be ready to have stupid stuff thrown back at you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote
Actually, if you don't say that Jim is sending us secret messages that he is selling out and/or that the PR team sux ass, people are pretty open minded around here to CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.
But, if you come here saying stupid stuff be ready to have stupid stuff thrown back at you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Who said Jim was sending us secret messages? That would be pretty stupid if someone said that, but the only one who ever said that was you. And their PR team does suck ass. That is constructive criticism, especially if they decide to switch management. You really need to get a grip. See what I mean?
Quote
Who said Jim was sending us secret messages? That would be pretty stupid if someone said that, but the only one who ever said that was you. And their PR team does suck ass. That is constructive criticism, especially if they decide to switch management. You really need to get a grip. See what I mean?
million, here come YOUR WORDS: "I've been thinking about the lyrics to Wordless Chorus as an opener to Z and I noticed some things about this song that haven't really been talked about on this board yet. It seems as though Jim is warning us that they're kind of "selling out" with Z".
Then you proceed to decipher the "sell out" messages.
also, saying the PR "sux ass" is not constructive criticism.
Constructive criticism: Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others, both positive and negative, in a friendly manner rather than an oppositional one.
Saying someone's PR "sux ass" isn't constructive criticism.
That's what an asshole would say (IMO).
Now, Dustin Leathers suggests, " Get some better merch (FAVORITE band they could make a fortune off me)". I feel like that's constructive criticism.
You see million? Hang in there man, I'll keeping educating you if you just hang in there! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ycarrot, you're idiotic accusations are not worth my time to even acknowledge. You seriously need to lighten up, put the dictionary away, and go get some fresh air. You're spending entirely too much time thinking about how I'm a blaspheme. Find something more constructive to do.
Folks, I swear, I am just having fun here.
I apologize if my sarcasm is interpreted as belittling.
I am under the impression that we are all fans of the music here and I say the same things to people here (in arguments) that I would say to my closest friends. Intellectual jousting with insults (see The Dozens in hip hop culture) is how we see it. No harm.
Perhaps I am taking too many liberties with my quick wit and my craftmanship of the English language.
If I disagree with your point of view or opinion, I will disagree. I'll try not to get personal or nasty, however, if you leave yourself wide open to some good hearted ribbing, please accept it for what it is.
Please, dish it back, but don't take it personally. Just having fun with my sarcastic wit; if you don't find it funny, then don't respond.
But if you say, "so and so is an asshole" or "so and so can't take criticism", then I have to respond....because it's F U N
Be careful out there...
Here you go aMillion, from the heart.
(http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/jpg/peace_jer.jpg)
Quote
Perhaps I am taking too many liberties with my quick wit and my craftmanship of the English language.
Funny, I must have missed the posts where you displayed your 'quick wit'. No wait, you're being sarcastic again, aren't you? ;) ;) ;)
Quote
Funny, I must have missed the posts where you displayed your 'quick wit'. No wait, you're being sarcastic again, aren't you? ;) ;) ;)
mortals...
....sorry gang...too busy sucking on my huge dong to repsond this time!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote1. Don't tour with WSP
Amen.
Quoteand dont let the tappers in (dont need the hippy crowd sorry)
I'm probably not "up on the lingo" and just don't understand what you mean by this, but there are already people following MMJ and recording their shows - and thank god for them, I love hearing MMJ live when I can't afford to fly out and see them.
Explain why you're against tapers, I'm curious.
Quote2. Get some better merch (FAVORITE band they could make a fortune off me)
They could definately profit more if they only had some more stuff... No bumper stickers? It'd be nice if they sold their CD/Vinyl themselves, too... I'd like giving the band more money.
Quote3. Put out DVD (i know its coming)
I'm not holding my breath for a DVD... but I agree, DVD's would be much appreciated. You don't know how badly I wish Acoustic Citsuoca was a DVD.
About the tapers, I would say most of the tapers seem to be from the hippy crowd, dont get me wrong I enjoy the live stuff as much as anyone, but you let the tapers tape and the band networks through this type crowd, just a thought I like the live stuff but first time i see a bunch of burks at the mmj show it seems the less the crowd appreciates real rock n roll, wilco and MMJ thus far have kept a much more mature crowd that knows rock n roll their crowd is not just there for drugs and one type of jam sound, again just a thought.
Who's WSP ???
it's still about the music to me.
QuoteAbout the tapers, I would say most of the tapers seem to be from the hippy crowd, dont get me wrong I enjoy the live stuff as much as anyone, but you let the tapers tape and the band networks through this type crowd, just a thought I like the live stuff but first time i see a bunch of burks at the mmj show it seems the less the crowd appreciates real rock n roll, wilco and MMJ thus far have kept a much more mature crowd that knows rock n roll their crowd is not just there for drugs and one type of jam sound, again just a thought.
So you can't enjoy live music with a bunch a "hippies" around? Or, a "hippie" crowd will effect the next MMJ record? Hey, if "hippies" want to come elbow to elbow with me at the front of the stage of my next Jacket show, more power to them.
Not sure I am following the logic.
I do know that sweatboard has been known to record shows and he's your typical, WSP, patchouli wearing hippie. Everytime I see that guy he's always trying to lay some WSP show on me for some smokes or a slice of cheese or something...
I think once taping is
not allowed it lets you know who is in control; the record company and not the band (IMO).
i really don't think tapers=hippies, that would definitely take away from the awesomeness of MMJ. i love listening to live shows, especially ones ive been to. in fact, the very first torrent i ever downloaded of a show id attended was lebowski fest, and it's still awesome to this day.
nearly all bands, jamband or not, allow taping. i do think it's a bit weird that most bands dont allow soundboard, but i'm sure there are good reasons for that. i was going to speculate about the reasons, but... ;D
QuoteAbout the tapers, I would say most of the tapers seem to be from the hippy crowd, dont get me wrong I enjoy the live stuff as much as anyone, but you let the tapers tape and the band networks through this type crowd, just a thought I like the live stuff but first time i see a bunch of burks at the mmj show it seems the less the crowd appreciates real rock n roll, wilco and MMJ thus far have kept a much more mature crowd that knows rock n roll their crowd is not just there for drugs and one type of jam sound, again just a thought.
I think you're really generalizing here. Not every taper is from this so-called "hippy crowd." I know, and have met, about 8-10 tapers that have taped MMJ, and really, I don't think any of them could really be classified as hippies (including myself). I don't see how having tapers could hurt, whether you are prejudice against the "hippy crowd" or not; I guess a lot of that stems from the fact that I don't really understand half of what you said above.
Quote10 ideas MMJ
2. Get some better merch (FAVORITE band they could make a fortune off me)
Speaking of new merch:
He recently sold the design of one of his pug paintings to the Louisville band My Morning Jacket to be used on its T-shirts.
"Adrian's is some of the creepiest, comical and most talented work I have seen come out of these parts or any parts for that matter," said Jim James, singer, guitarist and songwriter for My Morning Jacket. "He really appeals to all of us sickos."
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/state/13802097.htm
God Bless the Hippies!
I get to go to my nine to fiver every day while they travel around the states taping great shows for me. How is this a bad thing. Are we worried about image or the music?
If I knew who taped the toronto show from 5-28-04 that I listened to this morning on my way to work I'd give him a hug. I almost had an accident playing the drums at the end of masterplan and then had to wipe my tears of joy away before I walked in to my office after listening to the greatest Steam Engine ever.
QuoteGod Bless the Hippies!
I get to go to my nine to fiver every day while they travel around the states taping great shows for me. How is this a bad thing. Are we worried about image or the music?
If I knew who taped the toronto show from 5-28-04 that I listened to this morning on my way to work I'd give him a hug. I almost had an accident playing the drums at the end of masterplan and then had to wipe my tears of joy away before I walked in to my office after listening to the greatest Steam Engine ever.
amen. I love tapers.
great discussion.
And see Dustin, most of the people on this board can handle constructive criticism and have a civil discussion.
Don't believe everything you read about how most people here overreact to protect the Jacket. It's not true.
QuoteDon't believe everything you read about how most people here overreact to protect the Jacket. It's not true.
What do you mean by THAT, asshole?!! why don't you fucking get a life!!
( ;) )
Quote
What do you mean by THAT, asshole?!! why don't you fucking get a life!!
( ;) )
I said MOST
tundra and I would be the exception...
Nice discussion. "Constructive" criticism isn't what happens, as mr. carrot so eloquently pointed out, so I'm not sure to whom those comments are directed towards about being "overprotective" or whatever was said.
Saying that the PR Team sucks, isn't "constructive" criticism; it's just mean spirited nonsensical ramblings. Obviously, they don't "suck" as MMJ went from being a band playing to five or ten people at the Rud to a world conquering, major label signing act in the mere span of six years. Yes, a lot of that was done by word of mouth and the internet and endless touring...but it's no accident that our favorite band is on the lips of critics the world over and having fawning articles written about them in fabulous music magazines. That shit don't happen just because a "sucky" PR team half assedly does their job; rather, it seems to me that they are doing a hell of a job in the let's-expose-the-world to MMJ Department. Switch management?! I don't think that would be wise considering how fast their rise has been.
They've sold a bunch of records, they've toured a lot, and they're on the hearts and minds of many countless people. Sounds like someone's doing a good job somewhere.
In closing, I'm not "defending" anyone; rather, I'm just constructively pointing out that the idea that the so called "sucky" PR team is doing a shitty job just doesn't hold water, IMHO.
Maybe I should just go back to speculating about an MMJ tour of all the houses I've ever lived in. :)
Quote10 ideas MMJ
1. Don't tour with WSP and dont let the tappers in (dont need the hippy crowd sorry) Im sure Ill get bashed for this one and i do like the live stuff i have heard
i hate hipsters who think they are so much better than hippies and hippie jam bands. i dont think the m to the mj is going to be predjudiced against any specific crowd when it comes to getting fans.
2. Get some better merch (FAVORITE band they could make a fortune off me)
this is the one that makes me think "is this guy an idiot?". the bear shirt was amazing. the magician shirt was amazing. the sailboat shirt was amazing. lastly the new adrian wright pug shirt was totally awesome with one exception, those jerks beat me to it. i was p lanning on using the pug out of the adrian wright painting i got for some rednails merchandise...ill GET YOU MMJ! if its the LAST thing i DOOOOOOOOO!
3. Put out DVD (i know its coming)
good idea
4. Play vintage theaters and ledgendary clubs only (with growth I know this is impossible)
great idea
5. Better videos
ive never seen any so no comment.
6. A Live CD would sell
also a great idea
7. A New Orleans gig would be nice later on
man that place is stinky. but a good idea none the less.
8. No Clear channel venues
sadly a venue is a venue.
9. Stay healthy you have something special
yeah no more rehab for pez addiction!
10. Keep in mind Wilco has done a great job at staying small and making a good living.
this one is kind of wierd. from what ive read, heard, and said to the fellas they have never seemed like the "hey lets be gigantic famous rock stars" type. you and i both prefer they stay "small" at least on that "wilco level" because it means they will continue to be accessible and play smaller more intimate venues. thats technically how i prefer all my favorite bands to be.
ps. dont take the "idiot" or "hipster" comments too harshly.
You all are right. MMJ's popularity has everything to do with their PR team and nothing to do with the fact that they fucking rock. That wasn't constructive, it was mean-spirited because I secretly hate this band and want only the worse for them. You have exposed my true nature. I'm really a closet Ashlee Simpson fan, because her PR team sucks but it doesn't matter because she's so talented. Down with the Jacket, long live Ashlee Simpson!!!
QuoteYou all are right. MMJ's popularity has everything to do with their PR team and nothing to do with the fact that they fucking rock. That wasn't constructive, it was mean-spirited because I secretly hate this band and want only the worse for them. You have exposed my true nature. I'm really a closet Ashlee Simpson fan, because her PR team sucks but it doesn't matter because she's so talented. Down with the Jacket, long live Ashlee Simpson!!!
I have one million dreams, too. One of them is that you shut the hell up and get over yourself.
Her lastest record ain't that bad.
QuoteYou all are right. MMJ's popularity has everything to do with their PR team and nothing to do with the fact that they fucking rock. That wasn't constructive, it was mean-spirited because I secretly hate this band and want only the worse for them. You have exposed my true nature. I'm really a closet Ashlee Simpson fan, because her PR team sucks but it doesn't matter because she's so talented. Down with the Jacket, long live Ashlee Simpson!!!
but does she have good merchandise?
Quote
but does she have good merchandise?
(insert joke here)
QuoteYou all are right. MMJ's popularity has everything to do with their PR team and nothing to do with the fact that they fucking rock. That wasn't constructive, it was mean-spirited because I secretly hate this band and want only the worse for them. You have exposed my true nature. I'm really a closet Ashlee Simpson fan, because her PR team sucks but it doesn't matter because she's so talented. Down with the Jacket, long live Ashlee Simpson!!!
Ah, the never ending story. Like sands through the hour glass....so are the days of our lives.
(cue sweeping violin theme song)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Daysofourliveslogo.jpg)
I could care less about tapers--spread the gospel any way you can--also the more concert headcount grows the more secure this band is in continuing the fuckin' great music they make as a career. Just my $2 (increased from 2 cents for inflation ;))
i dont know if i'm late on this thread. but I have seen My Morning Jacket written about in every US and UK music magazine, big publications to small newspapers. This is what PR does. I'd say they're doing a damn good job.
Also, I think they are in the perfect position right now. They are selling records and selling out shows, without being that band that is shoved down everyone's throats (Coldplay, etc)
As far as the merch goes, does anyone else hate it when bands have toooo much merch? I'm glad they dont sell MMJ trucker hats, track jackets and coffee mugs and assorted bullshit.
I would also like to commend the band for being active in the gigposter scene. A lot of bands strike down artists who want to do posters for shows, with all the gigposters out there, I feel like the guys are pretty supportive.
Anyone advocating for a change in PR or management is just foolish. MMJ's stature is just right. Not too big, not too small.
I agree with you orbison on all points, except this one:
Quotecoffee mugs
I think that MMJ coffee mugs would be a GREAT idea. Maybe some MMJ bourbon tumblers, too. There's nothing like having a dinner party and pulling out your collectors glassware.
I still have my Muppet Movie glass from the gas station from, ohhhhh, you know, a decade that started with 7 or something. :)
QuoteI agree with you orbison on all points, except this one:
I think that MMJ coffee mugs would be a GREAT idea. Maybe some MMJ bourbon tumblers, too. There's nothing like having a dinner party and pulling out your collectors glassware.
I still have my Muppet Movie glass from the gas station from, ohhhhh, you know, a decade that started with 7 or something. :)
I love it!
I still want a baby tshirt for amelia....although antoniostrohs was most kind in making a onesie for her. cutest thing ever!
It IS all about the music. ;D I don't think we can tailor bands around our beliefs and what we would like them to say or do or produce or what have you. I actually think it's really cool that MMJ has hippie fans as well as emo fans. Just listen...
That said, I'd love an MMJ Coffee Mug, maybe it could say easy morning coffee or What a wonderful mug you are...by my cup...OK, I'll stop now. ;D
And bless the tapers!
I'm thinking a simple picture of the At Dawn cover with MY MORNING COFFEE written on top. I think I'll make my own. Thanks for the ideas guys.
Quote
That said, I'd love an MMJ Coffee Mug, maybe it could say easy morning coffee or What a wonderful mug you are...by my cup...OK, I'll stop now. ;D
that's the funniest thing ever! way to go jacketgirl!
i'm only 25, but jeez, when did hippies become the scourge of mankind? i understand about the smell, but they're about love and freedom and shit.
DVD *and* official live CD are coming, keep up dudes!
re: the PR team... well, i don't think it "sux". obviously in the last year the band got a lot of lip-service from music mags and music writers, but people who reach out to music media are already music fans. they were all over top-10 lists last year and have some album sales but they didn't have MASSIVE sales... i think the PR team could do a better job of hyping the band as the next big thing. i'll compare MMJ to a band i don't care for, franz ferdinand. personally, i thing they have very little musical talent and even less stage presence, but they became HUGE. the buzz was inescapable, they were everywhere, on TV, on the radio, on MTV, VH1... their hype wagon was a freakin' 18 wheeler. now, MMJ has all that potential but i think it's untapped.
the problem i've seen with SONY, BMG and EMI is that their PR push doesn't always extend very far with emerging artists. they don't always "work" their product to the max. i would like to see MMJ on TRL, on the O.C., Gilmore Girls, whatever... sell sell sell.
the jacket is still relatively obscure and that's too bad because they're way hot...
fuck yeah! tv shows! wellfleet, i think i remember you and i agreeing (scary, i know!) on thinking its not a bad thing for bands to be on the O.C. and programs like that. a lot of people call party foul, but there are certain programs out there trying to push an indie agenda music-wise, and thats a very good thing, me thinks. besides, those O.C. watchin' people need something better to get excited about than fucking death cab for cutie. ;D
i'm from the lizzie grubman school of PR... no such thing as bad publicity. i think fans of the band know the music well enough to not accuse the band of "selling out". they're in show business, not show charity. when i worked at HMV, the O.C. effect was very real and tangible sales-wise. back when the show was really hot, rooney played, next day, tons of requests for rooney cds.
i just feel like the band and the record need above-ground buzz. i hate to say it and i don't want to be a traitor to my generation or make a blanket statement, but kids today just don't read! if MOJO and RS et al make a big deal about MMJ it doesn't affect the sales as much as say, Seventeen or Maxim. i think the marketing team did good with the MySpace voting for song of the week. more things like that. but more music licensing to tv and film would be good... they need to get "off the record" on a major soundtrack. if they had a song on a "garden state" type soundtrack that sold really well, they would blow up...
maybe the next time the O.C. wants to demonize pot, they can use the outro to Off the Record as the soundtrack to the freak out. publicity! zing!
how bout some f-ing xxl t shirts???? :)
in case anyone was wondering, Z has sold about 170,000 copies.
Quotein case anyone was wondering, Z has sold about 170,000 copies.
I was hoping it would be about 10 times that by now--too many fucking downloaders! >:(
Quote
I was hoping it would be about 10 times that by now--too many fucking downloaders! >:(
thats a stereotypical thing to say overall. i downloaded the leak and still bought the album. i downloaded hundreds of albums a year and buy maybe 5 cds, and Z was one of them. dont judge if ya dont know
well, i think MMJ Fanatic just proved a point. you download tons of albums and buy five. coming from music retail, i completely understand why people don't want to pay 10-15$ for 3 good songs and a bunch of filler. that said, it makes it really difficult for smaller companies to exist and have good A&R without sales revenue.
downloading absolutely, 100% hurts album sales. rat, you're a major MMJ fan, so you bought the album, but how about people who heard Z for the first time and decided to download instead of buy? that hurts the label, in this case, ATO, a really great label, and that's unfortunate.
i'm not going to call anyone a thief or pass judgment on dowloading, but after working in music retail, i stopped downloading. smallish bands need this money. i can see how someone downloading the new U2 album can justify it as stealing from the rich. but non-brand name bands are hurt by downloading.
i have nothing against downloading to preview an album and see if you like it. but i don't think it's fair to obtain something for nothing. to me, it's like a fake gucci bag. a designer has his life's work in a particular design, and someone knocks it off and sells it for next to nothing? personally, it just ain't fair to artists...
if bands don't move albums, they get dropped from their labels. and that's sad... :(
i know downloading isnt a subject that can be agreed upon, like most things. i support bands by going to live shows which is where they make their money. even if a cd is $15, a band doesnt see $1 of that. its a sad world. i cant vouch for all those who downloaded Z and werent arsed to buy it. obviously its happened, probabaly a lot more than we realise. its becoming more and more that a band doesnt need a label. clap your hands say yeah just signed to a label recently after selling their cd like crazy for months making them themselves. dan bern is on messenger records which has maybe 2 other artists on it. dan decides when hell put out a cd and has no recording obligation. david tibet of current 93 started his own label and puts out whatever the fuck he wants. these are just a few examples. the major label is useless in this day and age. being signed to warner just seems more symbolic now than the meaning it had 10 years ago. the smaller indie labels are eventually going to win out, and when cd prices are dropped to the logical $8 or so they should be, ill start buying again. all artists, big or small, make 90% or more of their money from touring and merchandise. thats where i choose to focus my attention. im not saying its right or wrong, just my personal choice.
Dustin, i agree with what you say. i saw wilco in clev. for 35bucks a pop at a sold out show. too band 1/2 the crownd showed up to be cool. MMJ could be on the same level, making a great living without having to compromise any musical integrity. been superb everytime i've seen, turned on all my friends, even metalheads i know love this band, they see them live and cry like childeren. horrible spelling, need to stop the boozing. one of the last bands this old man travels to see, (also wilco and the good old days gbv). would pay whatever it took to see these guys live.
Quotei know downloading isnt a subject that can be agreed upon, like most things. i support bands by going to live shows which is where they make their money. even if a cd is $15, a band doesnt see $1 of that. its a sad world. i cant vouch for all those who downloaded Z and werent arsed to buy it. obviously its happened, probabaly a lot more than we realise. its becoming more and more that a band doesnt need a label. clap your hands say yeah just signed to a label recently after selling their cd like crazy for months making them themselves. dan bern is on messenger records which has maybe 2 other artists on it. dan decides when hell put out a cd and has no recording obligation. david tibet of current 93 started his own label and puts out whatever the fuck he wants. these are just a few examples. the major label is useless in this day and age. being signed to warner just seems more symbolic now than the meaning it had 10 years ago. the smaller indie labels are eventually going to win out, and when cd prices are dropped to the logical $8 or so they should be, ill start buying again. all artists, big or small, make 90% or more of their money from touring and merchandise. thats where i choose to focus my attention. im not saying its right or wrong, just my personal choice.
Okee dokes. I'm not an expert on all of this. But here's the thing - if you're on a major label and your record doesn't sell, you don't have a lot of credit going for you for deals and such. I remember learning how much it cost to rent a bus for one day from my friend who works with bands. You don't even want to know, it's beyond comprehension. Major labels will front that kind of money for you - and believe me, you don't want to be in charge of finding that kind of INSANE money yourself.
Actually, honestly, don't believe me. I'm kind of speculating based on the very little that I know.
It's very cool if you can release something on your own label and have it go somewhere, but I swear to everything that's important, a lot of that has to do with luck. People don't talk to you unless you have another person call on your behalf. It is the way it is.
If you're an indie dude putting out your own record, you can't charge $8 a record. You will make zero money. Unless you have enough money to create 10, 000 cds at a time, usually you press 1000 cds at a time, and after you figure how much you spent making the album (which, even if you do it cheaply, it's not cheap), you might recoup your costs if you sell whatever is left of the 1000 cds after you send out a bunch to promo and such.
A bus costs more in two days than pressing 1000 cds. (If I remember correctly.)
There are definitely pros and cons to being on a major label. There are pros and cons to everything. There's a lot of interesting details about the music industry that are CRAZY. :)
I love MMJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
peanuts
i think that the 2 entity model (label & artist) is a really shortsighted way to look at the record business. i'm amazed by people who don't take the big picture into consideration. by stealing music, you're not only screwing the label out of at least recouping its A&R and promotion costs, you're screwing the artist out of his advance which is based on potential album sales, THEN, you really go to work and royally fuck:
the sound engineer
the sound mixer
the CD pressing factory
the guys who package CDs into boxes
the delivery guys
the artwork guys
all of whom get paid out of album revenue.
the cost of touring, advertising and promotion is enormous. labels pay for in-store placement, in-store signage, special discounts and coupons. not to mention that in most big box retailers, the CDs are actually sold at a LOSS. i.e., Best Buy pays 9$ for a CD they sell for 7.99$
i love indie labels, but they have do not have the muscle or the finances to really push artists, which is why many a popular indie artist never get past their first album. advertising and store placement cost a fortune and it's amazing to me that some people are unable to think that far ahead.
if MMJ sells out a club of 1000 seats, and that's big for them, let's say at 35$ a pop, which is a lot more than they charge. that's a very optimistic 35,000$, let's say we include merch in that figure to make it fair. they have to pay:
the band members
the roadies
the drivers
the bus
the gas
the food
the equipment
insurance
the venue
accomodations sometimes
that's a whole bunch of money for a little band that gets no love from pepsi or nike or hershey's...
Quote
Actually, if you don't say that Jim is sending us secret messages that he is selling out and/or that the PR team sux ass, people are pretty open minded around here to CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.
I'm way late to this thread but I couldn't resist posting some Constructive Criticism. And do take special note of the necessary foundation blocks:
(http://www.louisville.edu/~easchn01/constructivecriticism.gif)
huh??
Quotei think that the 2 entity model (label & artist) is a really shortsighted way to look at the record business. i'm amazed by people who don't take the big picture into consideration. by stealing music, you're not only screwing the label out of at least recouping its A&R and promotion costs, you're screwing the artist out of his advance which is based on potential album sales, THEN, you really go to work and royally fuck:
the sound engineer
the sound mixer
the CD pressing factory
the guys who package CDs into boxes
the delivery guys
the artwork guys
all of whom get paid out of album revenue.
the cost of touring, advertising and promotion is enormous. labels pay for in-store placement, in-store signage, special discounts and coupons. not to mention that in most big box retailers, the CDs are actually sold at a LOSS. i.e., Best Buy pays 9$ for a CD they sell for 7.99$
i love indie labels, but they have do not have the muscle or the finances to really push artists, which is why many a popular indie artist never get past their first album. advertising and store placement cost a fortune and it's amazing to me that some people are unable to think that far ahead.
if MMJ sells out a club of 1000 seats, and that's big for them, let's say at 35$ a pop, which is a lot more than they charge. that's a very optimistic 35,000$, let's say we include merch in that figure to make it fair. they have to pay:
the band members
the roadies
the drivers
the bus
the gas
the food
the equipment
insurance
the venue
accomodations sometimes
that's a whole bunch of money for a little band that gets no love from pepsi or nike or hershey's...
you said in your post before this you werent going to pass judgement or call anyone a thief? isnt that what youve just done?
ratsprayer, i'm not passing judgment. someone who steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving kids is technically a thief, but not necessarily a bad person. i didn't say anyone was a terrible being for downloading music.
but downloading copyrighted music without paying for it or obtaining the consent of the copyright owner IS stealing. it's copyright infringement and it's not what *I* believe in. i think that if an album or song is available for sale, it should be bought, not copied.
imagine you're an artist and you have an on-line portfolio. is it ok for me to print out the pictures of your artwork and give them away for free? why, then, would people buy your artwork if they can get a copy from me for nothing? if you subsist on selling your artwork, you're out of luck. is that morally acceptable? i'm sure angry ewok would be pretty freakin' angry if i used the photos on his site to make prints for my friends and family.
making music is a musician's JOB. sure, they enjoy their work, but it's their means of feeding their kids, planning for their retirement, buying a home...
not to mention that, in the united states anyway, and i'm not even in favor of prosecuting downloaders, you would be successfully prosecuted and hugely fined for "dowloading thousands of albums".
i don't know if giving teenagers a $10,000 fine is a good way to teach them a lesson. instead, they should be compelled to face all the people that are affected by music/movie downloading. the guy who works in a warehouse packaging CDs at 5.50$ an hour is not part of the major label conspiracy. for him, packaging fewer CDs and thus working fewer hours can have devastating consequences.
at the current rate of prosecution, it would take 8,000 years for them to get to everyone. ill be waiting. :)
with the amount of money i spent on cds back in the day, (over 500 in less than 2 years) the pure truth is im still making up for all the money i was overcharged. im a terrible asshole, and no matter what i say, my case wont be justified for those who oppose downloading. i still support bands in the ways i feel is right, and thats all i can say. to each his or her own.
I used to download for free, now I don't. I still make copies for people and sometimes I make mixed CD's. I'll always do that.
Also a little curious how used CD stores get past the concept of stealing music. Aren't they undercutting (and profiting) the record stores by selling copyrighted material?
Here's how Bob Mould (Husker Du, Sugar; 25 plus years in the industry) swayed me into not downloading for free. I will re-re-post what Bob Mould said when his unreleased music found the internet before official release date:
I totally understand the temptation to download tracks. The part that worries me, and I think it's justified, is that people will forget to pay. Let me draw a distinction between "the real Bob fans" and "the people who gather and trade music freely, without concern for the artists' livelihoods".
One of the sites which had the record neatly compressed for instant gratification is maintained by someone who is clearly a big fan. A fan who got caught up in the excitement, enjoyed the record, and wanted to share the forbidden (or not quite ready to eat) fruit. Understandable. the disconnect comes with making it so easily available. Let's say 20 people downloaded it during its' last day on the site. If all of them liked it, and told a few friends, and it continued on like that for the next NINE weeks, we can all guess how many people would have the full album. How many of these people do we think would pay for an official release on July 26? Hard to say, but as the music spreads away from the "real Bob fans" (and how do we make the distinction?), the odds become less and less that I will see any money for my work.
I think there's a great difference between sharing something directly with someone in a discreet manner, and making it available to everyone everywhere. It's the difference between tape trading (which it what everyone likens file sharing to) and wholesale distribution (think iTunes with less promotion and no fee required). I hope the analogy makes sense to some of you.
Here's a thought: if you absolutely HAVE TO HAVE the album before street date, do me (and the record company) a favor: as you're waiting for the files to download, head over to the Yep Roc site, and pre-order whichever configuration you prefer. I'll be happy, you'll sleep better at night, and maybe the record company will make enough money to put out another Bob record next year. Oh - there's vinyl coming as well.
I'm happy people are as excited about the record as I was when I finished it. Just don't be taking food off my table, OK? I work hard, and would like to be rewarded, same as all of you who go to work every day. I wish my life was so glamourous that I need not worry about paying bills, buying health insurance, or stashing a few bucks away for my retirement. Truth is: I work hard, and I expect to be paid for what I have to offer. Try to do the right thing, whatever that is these days.
tracy... right freakin' on! thanks for posting that, it's always interesting to hear what the artists think of file sharing. i've always been curious about MMJ's stance on this.
rat... i just don't understand the argument that you're making up for money that you overpaid. you're stealing music to make up for the fact that you feel you paid too much? how does that get converted into justice? nobody said you're an asshole, i certainly won't, and if you don't understand the argument against downloading for free, then no amount of explaining will get through. i do believe, though, that if you were a professional painter or musician or designer, depending on your craft to live, that you would feel differently. there are many ways to justify and bend your reasoning to fit some sense of getting even morality and that works for you, that's great. but it's just not rational.
im not trying to justify, thats my whole point. i can throw out all sorts of excuses and reasons, but it wont matter to anyone. the fact i am stating is yes i do download, but i have other ways to support musicians. does that make it right? probably not, but thats who i am. i also know assloads of people who download that wont own up to it, notice im the only one here admitting it. call me a glutton, but im not going to shy away from it.
you had to see the inside world the music business before you stopped. maybe im stupid and need a $250,000 fine. well just have to wait and see.
I've only read back through the last couple of posts on this matter 'cause I don't feel like reading the whole thread... but I doubt Bob Mould really makes any money on record sales to begin with because his #s aren't all that high.
I'm no expert on the process, but from what I understand, you have to sell a SHITLOAD of records to make any money off of it. Artists like him make more money on the road. Am I correct?
QuoteI've only read back through the last couple of posts on this matter 'cause I don't feel like reading the whole thread... but I doubt Bob Mould really makes any money on record sales to begin with because his #s aren't all that high.
I'm no expert on the process, but from what I understand, you have to sell a SHITLOAD of records to make any money off of it. Artists like him make more money on the road. Am I correct?
thats exactly right, most all bands that any of us listen to make all their money on the road. ive driven 400 miles from my house to asheville just to see the jacket, bought 2 tickets and only used one. ive driven to louisville, cincy, and indy to see them, all at least 1 to 3 hours. bought more tickets than i used. all that right there equals over a thousand albums sold. bottom line. if you want to support an artist, see them live. all this still doesnt justifty downloading, but see the support is still there. i wasted $35 a ticket to see them with wilco at the palace and missed half the opening set. the jacket will get my money to see them play live in places they choose, not to support dave matthews' record label and his fucking lavish tour bus that dumps shit in the chicago river.
I'll admit that I download some music as well. If it's an artist that I really support, I'll buy their record at the merch table when I see them at a show. That way, they're getting the most money out of me.
The only records that I've bought in the last couple of years were anything by MMJ and DBTs.
I did buy a shitload of records last February on a crazy shopping spree that my wife and I had, but I have only listened to 2-3 of them more than once. Therefore, I feel like I wasted a shitload of money.
That's all I'm gonna say.
im the best dowloader in this thread, folks.
:-/
just remember: no cd sales can lead to no interest from a record company. I have picked up everything in hard copy and given their entire cd collection as gifts to friends and relatives as well as driven all kinds of miles to see the live shows and I think people should be paid for their work and sales numbers are important in the market we live in. I just feel its important as part of the support of this wonderful group of guys to boost the sales numbers wherever we can.
I have no choice but to respect Bob Mould's opinion. We can speculate (and we know how productive speculation is ;)) on how things are with record sales, or we can take someone like Mould, who has seen the shadiest of shady from the record industry, who has first hand experience that spans over 25 years; from large labels to small labels.
The way he sees it, if you're taking a dime off his table, then that's still his dime. Who are you to say if it should bother him or not?
(http://www.midtel.net/images/dime_144x141.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/ycartrob/bobpride1.jpg)
Quote
I'm no expert on the process, but from what I understand, you have to sell a SHITLOAD of records to make any money off of it. Artists like him make more money on the road. Am I correct?
This is completely besides the point. It's not about making money for the band, it's about supporting the whole industry. An industry with a checkered past no doubt, but one that continues to support a lot of bands and music that inevitably make absolutely no money. Without this industry in place, MMJ doesn't get the money up front to buy recording eqiupment and instruments to make albums and play shows. Most likely they have barely broken even on touring up until the latest album. Crew, tour bus, flights, food, etc eat up most of the expense. Yes, they could maybe do it in a van, without good sound guys, guitar tecs, and they could record their records on a computer for cheap. But is that begs an important point to be made, which is without the support of a major label, a band's options or more limited artistically. They may not be able to afford the equipment, or producer, or the TIME to be able to make the music they want to make.
Let's think about down time between records. There has to be time to recoup and re-energize from extensive touring, and time to get creative. For some bands it take 6 months to make another record, for other it could take a couple of years... Where do you suppose they get the money to live on during this time span? From touring profits? No way does a band at MMJ's level make enough money touring for a few months a year to save up enough for a whole years living expenses. This is where record label's advances come in. It is also how they can pay to make the next record.
Well then, how much money does the band get you ask? What determines this? ALBUM SALES! If a record company can reasonably expect to make some money off of a band they will give them a nice chunk of money to make a record. The more sales that are expected, the more money that is available to the band. A band at MMJ's level aren't selling a lot of records, partly due to the kind of music, downloaders and the crappy copy protection stunt that the label pulled (cutting it's nose off despite it's face).
Also, making live DVD's and videos can be very expensive. That money most likely comes in the form of advances as well.
The funny thing is that for most bands nowadays, none of the money advanced by the record label ends up in their pockets. That money is usually used to record an album at a high priced recording studio and with a high priced producer. The money that they get to live on and support themselves and possibly their families comes from a publishing deal (if they're lucky enough to get one), and again, a publishing deal is based on RECORD SALES. This is another reason why you see so much music being whored out to corporate america nowadays via commercials and shitty television shows.
So the next time you criticize a band, for being on the OC or some other lame reason, or not touring, or whatever, after you've justified downloading their music for free, or the next time you criticize Dave Mathews's label, a label that gives MMJ complete artistic freedom and money to make music, music that you love, in a climate that isn't very conducive to money making......stop and think for a second how completely selfish and narcissitic it is and how it can affect a lot of people in many different ways.
If your girlfriend always goes down on you and she let's you get away with not returning the favor, without a complaint, do you still not go down on her? Well, if you're righteous man, you go down there and go to work.
That's all I have to say. Do right. Don't fall into the trends and habits of this me first society, and for god's sake don't justify it!
Quote
If your girlfriend always goes down on you and she let's you get away with not returning the favor, without a complaint, do you still not go down on her? Well, if you're righteous man, you go down there and go to work.
if you're a true righteous man, you know that going down on your girlfriend / wife / life partner or whatever is much better than having her go down on you. ;D
i don't know what this has to do with downloading, but amen bruthas! :o
lets get off to some other subject besides downloading.
thank you, ill be here all night. :D :D
I downloaded Z before it was released, but as soon as it was on shelves, I bought my copy, and told my friends to buy it, too... I made everyone a deal that if they didn't like Z, I'd buy the album from them.
Then I had to go around and warn them not to use Z on their computers due to the spyware.
word Steve Smith.
I think the final way to think is, nobody has ANY idea what kind of deal your favourite band has going for them. Do whatever you can to support them, and please don't fuck them if they make music that makes you happy.
:)
Good points, Steve. Thanks for sharing them all.
Laurie
Quote
Also a little curious how used CD stores get past the concept of stealing music. Aren't they undercutting (and profiting) the record stores by selling copyrighted material?
It's the First-Sale Doctrine. The copyright holder has already been compensated once, so the particular copy now belongs to the purchaser. If he wants to re-sell it, he can, but he can't make a new copy or rent it or anything. Of course, nobody's paid for those promo copies, and that's why they're stamped "Not for Sale"
My 2 cents...............
Here is my analogy. There are thousands upon thousands of amazing worthwhile charitys out there. Unfortunatly none of us has the money to support them all. So, we do research and support the ones that usually mean the most to us. I see downloading albums as a way of doing research to find out what I like. I could not possibly afford to buy each album that I'm INTERESTED in. If it were not for downloading I probably would still not even know what some of my favorite artists sound like. I downloaded the Andrew Bird album and I LOVED it, I just bought a copy on Vinyl and will go see him live whenever he plays near here if I have the chance. I downloaded some MMJ songs to start off and now they could all probalby live at least a month on what I alone have bought and what I have convinced other people to buy. I really think downloading HELPS a band like My Morning Jacket in the long run. The thing about file sharing is that while it may be illegal and against the law weather it's WRONG or not is really up for debate (and probably needs to be looked at on a case by case basis). I don't feel like what I'm doing is WRONG. I have hundreds of albums on my computer. I also have hundreds of albums that I have bought. Just about every spare penny I have goes to supporting music in some form or fashion. I have been known to eat Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches all week just so I can go see a local band and buy their record.
Here a link to a great debate between Lars and Chuck D about this whole thang
http://www.rapstation.com/promo/lars_vs_chuckd.html
QuoteMy 2 cents...............
Here is my analogy. There are thousands upon thousands of amazing worthwhile charitys out there. Unfortunatly none of us has the money to support them all. So, we do research and support the ones that usually mean the most to us. I see downloading albums as a way of doing research to find out what I like. I could not possibly afford to buy each album that I'm INTERESTED in. If it were not for downloading I probably would still not even know what some of my favorite artists sound like. I downloaded the Andrew Bird album and I LOVED it, I just bought a copy on Vinyl and will go see him live whenever he plays near here if I have the chance. I downloaded some MMJ songs to start off and now they could all probalby live at least a month on what I alone have bought and what I have convinced other people to buy. I really think downloading HELPS a band like My Morning Jacket in the long run. The thing about file sharing is that while it may be illegal and against the law weather it's WRONG or not is really up for debate (and probably needs to be looked at on a case by case basis). I don't feel like what I'm doing is WRONG. I have hundreds of albums on my computer. I also have hundreds of albums that I have bought. Just about every spare penny I have goes to supporting music in some form or fashion. I have been known to eat Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches all week just so I can go see a local band and buy their record.
Comapring charities and a rock n' roll band is like comapring apples to oranges. A charity doesn't GIVE you anything in return. You are the giver and not the receiver when you give to a charity. A charity doesn't spend a year of their life making something for you to enjoy. A band does.
So, not only do you justify not paying for music, but you use bad logic to do the justifying!
I guess we should all applaud you for not trying to sneak into shows for free? and not going to the record store and stealing cds in your duffle bag? Do you go to the grocery store and steal cheese because you always buy milk and bread?
The bottom line is that a lot of people don't buy the record and support the bands that they download, a big part of record sales come from the fringe and middle of the road fans, who aren't as diehard as you. There are a lot of people out there enjoying Z who have never paid a dime for it, and have no intention of going to a show. This directly affects a band's bottom line. If everyone was like you, it wouldn't be a big deal, but the reality is that most people aren't like you. So it's just a little self righteous of you to run around preaching that it's ok to steal music, because it's not! And it is WRONG. Whether or not you want to admit it, is in your hands.
Does it not bother you, that your favorite bands struggle monetarily, and in a business sense because of all the people like you who justify illegal downloading?
QuoteA charity doesn't GIVE you anything in return.
That statement is untrue.
sweatboard... your point is completely valid, that downloading allows you to sample music before paying your hard-earned money for it. but then don't keep the music that you don't end up buying. you can go to the Gap and try on a pair of jeans before you buy them, but you don't get to keep them if you think they're not really worth 50$...
let's just get this, recorded music is a luxury. it is a non-essential item when it comes right down to it. if you had to choose between feeding your child and buying a new CD, i hope the choice is to feed your kid. CDs, DVDs, albums, they're all material goods that we *choose* to spend money on, they're not water/food/shelter. your charity analogy doesn't make sense. by not giving money to ALL charities, you are not stealing from those you don't donate to. but if you go to the "please bring a donation" event of a charity, enjoy the show but don't bring a donation, then you DO affect their bottom line. you are using their services and NOT compensating them.
i don't get it...
it's ok to steal from a band because you pay for other bands' material
it's ok to steal from a band you semi-like, but not from one you really like
it's ok to steal from big companies, but not little ones
it's ok to steal songs, but as long as you go to the show
that's a lot of moral justifications, ifs and buts...
i just spent 60$ at best buy on CDs and DVDs, is it ok if i help myself to a bag of peanut M&Ms at the cash lane because i already paid for other things?
EC is right, you never know what's in a band's record contract, where its revenue stream comes from, what their advances are based on... to me, it's insane to believe that a band like MMJ or Wilco can be successful scanning 10,000 copies of an album release even with extensive touring. these bands don't get the licensing deals that a U2 or the Black Eyed Peas get to sponsor cell phones, iPods, Tostitos, whatever...
way i see it, 5 bucks or 5 million bucks off the band's table, it's THEIR work and THEIR creative force, they should have control over it. the way some of you justify downloading other albums but not MMJ albums is the way some people justify downloading MMJ stuff but not other albums. so your logic, used by non-MMJ fans, hurts MMJ. is that cool?
Quote
That statement is untrue.
Yeah, I saw that argument coming from a mile away and I also agree that it is "UNTRUE". I work for the Boys and Girls Clubs and when people donate to us they are not just investing in the lives of young people they are investing in THIER community. The entire community benefits from what we do on a daily basis, Not everyone pays to enjoy it.
Thier are several families that take advatage of our services and don't pay thier dues, thier are also plenty of families that give what they CAN and still take the same advantages as everyone else does of our services. I'm one of those people that gives what they CAN when it comes to supporting music. It's really your problem if you think I'm WRONG because I don't feel bad about what I do and I don't think it's WRONG. Also, I doubt anyone in the band is struggeling monetarily as much as I am. If they wanted to be millionares they could have picked a diiferent profession. You do starving artist everywhere a disservice by complaing about how bad My Morning Jacket has it.
I wasn't ever aware that I liked cheese on my sandwich until my friend let me download it for free one day and I was like SHIT! cheese soothes my soul. Now I pick up a half pound every week.
The fact is that YES, I would choose to pay my bills, eat, provide for my wife and household before buying music, which is why I can't afford to buy all the music I'm interested in checking out. It's pretty simple, If I couldn't afford to buy the music and it wasn't available for free I wouldn't ever hear alot of the music I have because I STILL wouldn't have bought it. So Unless someone let me borrow it or I heard it on the radio I just wouldn't ever hear it. I guess I'm probably stealling thier music when someone let's me borrow a record since I'm not deposinting coins for every 30 seconds of thier music that I actually hear. If you are a band you aren't in it to make money you do it beacuse of some deeper reason (hopefully). Let's say I buy a local bands CD and I really love them. Someone two states away may feel like "well, I would check it out but I just don't have money to go out and buy this cd" Is it better that they never hear the music or that they hear it for free and enjoy it and connect to it? I'm asking anyone that actually plays music this question, because it seems to me you would want as many people as possible to enjoy it.
"Also, I doubt anyone in the band is struggeling monetarily as much as I am. If they wanted to be millionares they could have picked a diiferent profession. You do starving artist everywhere a disservice by complaing about how bad My Morning Jacket has it. "
??? ??? ???
OK Jim, Carl, Bo, Tom, Pat, you can make 80,000$ a year and i'll totally support you guys, but if i ever find out you guys are buying yachts and malibu compounds and bling, i will not buy your cds anymore. Jim, if you wanted to make real money, you would have become a lawyer. you chose to be a musician and that's your own damn fault for being too stupid to go to law school instead of the guitar center. i only make 24,000$ a year so i don't think you should make money while i'm assembling widgets down here in Kenosha, Wisconsin. My name is robin, robin hood, and i believe it's ok to steal from the rich and give to the poor because the rich just have it too good. see, the only way to truly be an artist is to live in obscurity in a roach-infested basement, cut off your ear, and have your albums sell posthumously, naturally, after you die of a heroin overdose for that extra rock 'n roll touch.
what a load of BS.
at least, at the very least, download bands that say it's ok. if band ABC says go ahead and get our music for free off our web site and keep it, then do it. if a band says, gee, we'd much rather you listen to the album for free on our site via streaming audio, and if you like it, please buy it, but don't cherry pick our one song and download it because then our label will drop us and we'll be forced to become carpenters, welders, or politicians...
WN: How do you feel about efforts to control how music flows through the online world with digital rights management technologies?
Tweedy:A piece of art is not a loaf of bread. When someone steals a loaf of bread from the store, that's it. The loaf of bread is gone. When someone downloads a piece of music, it's just data until the listener puts that music back together with their own ears, their mind, their subjective experience. How they perceive your work changes your work.
WN: What are your thoughts on the RIAA's ongoing lawsuits against individual file sharers?
Tweedy: We live in a connected world now. Some find that frightening. If people are downloading our music, they're listening to it. The internet is like radio for us.
WN: What was your reaction when copies of A Ghost Is Born started showing up online this year, before the official release?
Tweedy: Something interesting happened. We were contacted by fans who were excited about the fact that they found it on P2P networks, but wanted to give something back in good faith. They wanted to send money to express solidarity with the fact that we'd embraced the downloading community. We couldn't take the money ourselves, so they asked if we could pick a charity instead -- we pointed them to Doctors Without Borders, and they ended up receiving about $15,000.
All good and well. We're all music fans here who still spend shitloads of money on music & shows. Bottom line for me: it's ok to discover new things through the internet, just keep supporting your favorite bands as much as possible.
It's that easy right?
Quote
Yeah, I saw that argument coming from a mile away and I also agree that it is "UNTRUE". I work for the Boys and Girls Clubs and when people donate to us they are not just investing in the lives of young people they are investing in THIER community. The entire community benefits from what we do on a daily basis, Not everyone pays to enjoy it.
Thier are several families that take advatage of our services and don't pay thier dues, thier are also plenty of families that give what they CAN and still take the same advantages as everyone else does of our services. I'm one of those people that gives what they CAN when it comes to supporting music. It's really your problem if you think I'm WRONG because I don't feel bad about what I do and I don't think it's WRONG. Also, I doubt anyone in the band is struggeling monetarily as much as I am. If they wanted to be millionares they could have picked a diiferent profession. You do starving artist everywhere a disservice by complaing about how bad My Morning Jacket has it.
I wasn't ever aware that I liked cheese on my sandwich until my friend let me download it for free one day and I was like SHIT! cheese soothes my soul. Now I pick up a half pound every week.
Again, you continue to only see it from your perspective. I'm not trying to pick on you, but this is inherently selfish. This selfish, me first attitude is one of the main reasons why we need charities in the world......
i just think that the perception that recorded music is a public right, like AIR, is incorrect. the music doesn't belong to the people, it belongs to the artists! you don't have a god-given right to hear music. there is a higher reason for them becoming musicians, they are incredibly creative. but surgeons and lawyers also have special skills that are important to society and they get paid for those skills even though they can and do choose to do pro-bono work.
i paint and write. if i can't at least break even selling paintings and/or articles, how can i afford paint, brushes, thinner, canvas, and the free time to do these things? i want people to enjoy my writing, but i can't keep writing if nobody pays me, because i would have to get a JOB! i can't afford all the cds and movies i would like to own. the answer is, well, i just have priorities and stealing is not the fix for this. i can't afford the louis vuitton tote bag for 2000$, my answer is not to shoplift it or buy a knockoff, it's to do without it.
to professional artists and musicians, this isn't a hobby, it's their employment, their retirement fund, their kids' college tuition, not just pocket money for weekend beer.
the REAL problem I have with record companies is they use the artist (again) to try and prevent illegal downloading. That's where the rub is for me; it's really not about eithics or money or the artist, it's about power (Chuck D talks about that on the link I provided). If they really cared about these artists they're signing, they'd give them more control and cash. They see this new technology getting the best of their inflated prices, so instead of address the over priced item, they try to limit the technology.
The principle of making copies has always been with us, but they could control that (how could you possibly make copies at this rate before the internet?) back then, making casettes for friends. So, the ethical and moral argument is crap. The record companies have a fear of being out of a job, so they lobby the government to do something about it.
I see both sides of the argument. On one hand, fuck greedy corporations; on the other hand, support your artists of choice. Suprised to see so many capitalists here...
It's the ethical dilema more so than the fact that bands are going broke b/c of downloading. Bands aren't going broke b/c of downloading. Lars talks about that on the link I provided, so let go of that angle please.
wellfleet, if you think the music belongs to the artists then you're living in a fantasy land. You might want to look at that assetion again or ask Paul McCartney how Revolution got to be part of a Nike commercial.
QuoteWN: What was your reaction when copies of A Ghost Is Born started showing up online this year, before the official release?
Tweedy: Something interesting happened. We were contacted by fans who were excited about the fact that they found it on P2P networks, but wanted to give something back in good faith. They wanted to send money to express solidarity with the fact that we'd embraced the downloading community. We couldn't take the money ourselves, so they asked if we could pick a charity instead -- we pointed them to Doctors Without Borders, and they ended up receiving about $15,000.
All good and well. We're all music fans here who still spend shitloads of money on music & shows. Bottom line for me: it's ok to discover new things through the internet, just keep supporting you're favorite bands as much as possible.
It's that easy right?
this is great. if wilco says it's ok to download, then go ahead and download their music. if you then want to contribute to a charity in their name, that's awesome, especially DWB. but:
1. not all bands think it's ok
2. not all downloaders will respect the band and donate to the charity to even out the moral ledger
3. good faith implies just that. but so many people's sense of entitlement means that they lack good faith. they just want to get something for nothing.
nice post Chills :)
tracy, i'm not an idiot, i did work in music and TV. some artists own their own masters and publishing rights obviously some don't. thanks for the history lesson, though :-/ ;)
it should be up to the owner of those rights to decide who gets to use their songs and how.
and to all those who believe that by downloading they don't pour money into the coffers of labels... P2P service providers are free for the users, but they're not free to start up or maintain. there are deep pockets behind those doors, too. so someone is making a profit off of all downloads...
but the music belongs to someone who has invested money and effort into it, it's not public property is what i was trying to say.
Quoteit should be up to the owner of those rights to decide who gets to use their songs and how.
again well, shoulda, woulda, coulda.
Is it OK for me to record a song I hear on the radio?
i guess i'm amazed by so many anti-capitalists, and i was born in a Communist country! anti-capitalists maybe don't know what it's like to stand in a long line for eggs because everyone gets the same amount of eggs (and bread and milk)
when i see people rage against big corporations, i can't help wondering about basic economic theory. money and profit aren't zero-sum. if i am a millionaire, it doesn't mean there is less wealth out there for you to obtain.
record labels employ lots of people who all play a part in bringing your favourite band into the public light. all those people receive a salary. there's a million cogs that take a bunch of guys from Louiville from local faves to worldwide critical darlings.
QuoteIs it OK for me to record a song on the radio?
my wife and I were discussing "radio recording" last night. I remember trying to record the newest Prince single off of the radio years and years ago. I already owned "Purple Rain", but didn't have a dual-cassette recorder and I was trying to put together a mix of songs from the radio. The problem was getting the god-damn DJ to shut up because I didn't want to hear him talking. So most of my mixtapes back then started *right* before the lyrics started.
God Damn DJs.
:)
Quote
this is great. if wilco says it's ok to download, then go ahead and download their music. if you then want to contribute to a charity in their name, that's awesome, especially DWB. but:
1. not all bands think it's ok
2. not all downloaders will respect the band and donate to the charity to even out the moral ledger
3. good faith implies just that. but so many people's sense of entitlement means that they lack good faith. they just want to get something for nothing.
Actually, we both agree! I knew we would.
Number three is the problem.
Most real music lovers (I just know everyone here does) keep supporting their favorite band any way they can, but hey, you can't stop the ones that just abuse the system. Certainly not if it is so easy to abuse.
People will always be greedy, it's our nature
This selfish, me first attitude is one of the main reasons why we need charities in the world......
this comment and Wellfleet's entire argument are just putting words in my mouth. I thought I've explained myself pretty well but people keep making me out to be the antichrist. This debate could go on literally forever. If you are in the buisness of only listening to music that you have compensated the artist monitarily for I applaud you and your righteous road. I'll continue to download albums and enjoy music and support the bands that I can. :-* Peace Out!!!
well, I am able to see both sides of the argument and I have provided links and snippets from artists who feel both ways.
The bottom line is that regulating technological advances is not the answer. No one ever had a problem with file sharing until power came into the equation (and that has absolutely nothing to do with the artist, as you saw with Z and SONY records).
wellfleet, I'd challenge you to look a little harder into the flip side of your argument b/c you come across sounding like you are pro SONY and pro record companies doing whatever they want (you know, downloading spyware onto your computer?) b/c they OWN the material you are putting into your computer.
It's a slippery slope, but both sides have vaild and honorable points.
tracy, i'm not pro-Sony anymore than i am pro-blue cheese dressing being spelled bleu. but i'm not anti-Sony. the spyware fiasco actually goes to the heart of my argument, which is all about consent. i did not consent to having spyware installed on my computer and the label, apparently, does not consent for me to make copies of this album for my friends. (and fuck my friends, the album is ace and worth every penny dammit!)
i'm definitely not for record companies influencing modes of distribution as it pertains to suppressing technology. the slippery slope you mention is right on, but it slopes both ways. if downloading is ok, then what else becomes ok by extension? i think companies are weary of setting a precedent whereby they will no longer have control over a product they paid to produce.
a judge just halted sales on the notorious B.I.G.'s ready to die album because the song contains an Ohio Players sample without permission. what do people have the right to do without compensating the creator?
the way the industry is now, it still relies heavily (arguably too heavily) on physical album sales and although pay-per-download services are very popular, they are not embraced by all. there definitely will be a new production model where everyone can make a profit while respecting both intellectual property and the freedom to make mix tapes. recorded music has come a long way in 100 years and it will keep changing. and while consumers dictate supply, demand, and therefore market price, if they don't like any one of these, they can affect change by not buying, not supporting, buying only the lowest price...
the more money a company makes, the cheaper their product prices are.
i think it's about control, the control of your product. my dad works in pharmaceuticals, everyone's favourite scapegoat. some are very angry at these companies for selling brand-name meds for so much and holding on to their patents instead of letting them be produced generically and for cheap. for one, in the 12+ years my dad's been in this industry, i've heard him talk about hundreds of millions of dollars spent or research and development, sometimes only to not have the drug approved, have the side-effects be too overwhelming... one contaminated IV bag forces the halt of production and the tossing out of an entire batch, thousands of bags. these companies are there to make a profit, they're a business, not a charity. they need to recoup the costs of their R&D, their testing, their losses... so i can understand why they want to hold on to a patent for a while before releasing it. if they send 200 million dollars on developing an arthritis drug that could help millions of people and someone just copies the formula and sells it for 5$ instead of 25$, the company can't fund research...
i think it's nice to show respect to those who worked to make something happen and see how they feel. if, like, tweedy, they think downloading is a benefit, then by all means. but if lars ulrich says he doesn't want you to download, as a fan, you should respect his wishes.
and for the record, sweatboard is not the antichrist. i have it on good authority that it's ashlee simpson. :-*
Jeeez wellfleet, you're an apologist for media conglomerates, pharmaceutical companies, and Ashlee Simpson....no wonder we disagree so much! ;)
tracy, for a number of reasons, im starting to like you more and more. its a scary world out there, folks.
to everyone:
here whats the fuck i think. you do what you think is right, ill do what i think is right. stop fucking attacking people and saying you think someone else is flat out wrong. if you feel so passionately about this, focus your efforts on some other issue in the world that will make this world a better place, and believe, im not changing the subject, but it cant be argued there are more important things that could use more attention.
apologist would imply that i and they have something to be sorry for.
not all big media is bad, making money is neither shameful nor a sign of bad faith, my dad's company saves lives and makes lives better, and ashlee simpson is like, the best singer since hilary duff, so take that!
i honestly believe that people who rail against big business are immature. not all corporations are evil and success is not to be begrudged. any one of those people, if they hit the lotto, would welcome their windfall and enjoy their money, but nobody else can? if you come up with something people are willing to pay for then you're a bad person? i wish i could see the world in big=bad, money=greed=evil, success=selling out, meaningless=worthless. it shows a severe inability to discern the nuance in life.
everyone loves to hate wal mart, for example. i am aware of their wrongs and there are many of them. but i live in arkansas now, home of wally world, and i see how much they out into the community. seriously, man. they endow libraries, scholarships, breakfast programs, recycling, they offer employment to people who would otherwise suffer from their lack of skills in this statistically undereducated state, if arkansas moved to say, honduras and did not endow so many charities and good works, this state would be devastated.
seeing these things in such a simplistic manner is not based in reality and not seeing the good with the bad is intentional blindness to stand by some self-righteous point. and i don't mean you tracy, but some people.
it's not my fault, i'm mouthy about everything!
but dudes, to each his own, and judge not lest ye be judged... i don't think anyone here is wrong, and certainly tracy and sweatboard and chills made some really good points for and against downloading. the test has to be if you can look at yourself in the mirror every morning and feel ok with yourself, then it's all good.
my ethics prof said one of the tests was "if what you were doing was in the news tomorrow for everyone to see, would you be ok with that?" and that's valid too.
i, for one, like the hell out of all of you.
(http://cdn.nflximg.com/us/boxshots/large/60036227.jpg)
(supposed to convey affection...)
Main Entry: apol·o·gist
Pronunciation: &-'pä-l&-jist
Function: noun
: one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something
As for media conglomerates, I have a problem with 5 major corporations distributing 95% of all music, books and movies in this country.
As for pharmaceutical companies, they pay off psychiatrists for certain diagnoses' so the shrink will prescribe their drug. EXAMPLE: the prevelance of true bi-polar (actual manic/depressive episodes) in adolescents is less than 1%. At one point last year, half my case load (5 of 10) of adolescents was dx bi-polar and they were all on 2 or more meds (they got 13 year old kids on Risperdal for God's sakes!). The pharm. companies are not doing this for R@D, they're doing it for marketing expenses and to get the kids hooked early.
Wal Mart is the lesser of 2 evils ( do not work or work for a company that makes billions but does not offer health care to it's workers).
I buy music from Sony, I take Zantac for acid reflux and I sometimes shop at Wal Mart. I don't hate these people, but I cannot pretend everything is a-ok either.
I see it differently b/c the people I represent and work for are homeless or close to homeless. America does not exist without a poor working class, I have no choice to fight for their rights and point out how "freedom" is subjective.
if a 19 year old person in our program asks me if it's OK to download Beethoven's 9th for free b/c Beethoven's 9th is the only thing that brings him joy, I'm not about to tell him about the evils of taking from corporate America. Hell, I might even front him a blank CD!
has anyone wondered why "Z" was protected? Maybe MMJ had some input on that except for the hidden software aspect of it, but maybe they want money from sales because after all their job is making good music for the fans to enjoy, but for a price... And for them by supporting the protected cd type then they would make money off of hard copies.
Woweee. I'm actually pretty torn on the downloading subject. I used to be a pretty big downloader. Now I don't do any downloads at all.
Here's a bit of truth. When I knew I was going to see My Morning Jacket in Nashville, and I'd heard ISM twice on my brother's stereo, I downloaded everything I could find. I took all the mp3s that were available here, found whatever I could on (hmm, what was that called, donkey something..) anyhow, I found At Dawn.
I didn't get the real copy until my Mom got it for me for Christmas that year. I STILL have Harvest on my computer and I've never bought it. I listen to it all the time. And I feel shitty about it because I really really like and admire Neil Young, but I am broke as hell and can't even remember the last time I bought myself a new cd.
Holy crap. Aside from Z, I honestly think it was last summer.
I don't download now. I don't feel right about it. This is not a moral judgement on the world, it is me. I also worry about people like me a little (ie having Harvest and never buying it).
I like the idea of a myspace, say, where at least you have a bit of control. People can check stuff out, can listen whenever they want, but they have to be on the computer - it's not like they can stick a song on their ipod or burn it. It gives a fair hint at what kind of music the band is all about, and then you can choose if you want to purchase the album.
I really don't know where I stand. I go up and down. But man, I kind of hope I decide that I'm ok with downloading, because I could sure use some new tunes. ;)
tracy... honest to god, i don't think you even read what i write slowly enough to understand that i, more than many people here, do see both sides of the coin very clearly. of course concentrated media ownership is bad, i'm in journalism for pete's sake, i KNOW it's a bad deal. of course pharma companies do evil shit to make more money, but a drug my dad work on, an AZT inhibitor, helps people living with HIV live longer and better. wal mart treats some employees poorly, but it also does a lot for the community.
nothing is completely one thing or the other and that's what i've been saying all along.
no, america cannot exist without breaking the backs of the working poor (and illegal immigrants, and women, and minorities). but that's because, as sad and terrible as it is for your cases to hear, not everyone can be a neurosurgeon or an engineer. not everyone can be a pilot. by necessity, some people must become nurses, janitors, electricians and flight attendants. all respectable jobs that fine, hard-working people do every day, they're just not the "glamour" jobs.
i can see how much compassion you have for your kids and how their lack of opportunity is due to poverty and related circumstances. but in a market economy, someone is almost always working for someone else, it's just a fact. it's not fair, it's unjust, it's sad, but it's true. not everyone has the talent to become hendrix, someone has to become a foley artist.
you know, it's just not that easy for me to see things as wholly black or white because i don't fit the typical hard-left liberal box. i'm so left-wing on so many issues but i also have less sympathy for people who don't follow the social contract.
and also, big T, god love you, but i don't think you have a leg to stand on defining words for me. when your grammar gets better, feel free to dictionarize me. ;)
Wellfleet, at this point you have contradicted yourself so many times that I'm not even sure YOU know what your trying to say. I still love you though.
Brian
QuoteWellfleet, at this point you have contradicted yourself so many times that I'm not even sure YOU know what your trying to say. I still love you though.
Brian
ditto
Quoteand also, big T, god love you, but i don't think you have a leg to stand on defining words for me. when your grammar gets better, feel free to dictionarize me. ;)
wellfleet, being an apologist has nothing to do with apologizing or being sorry for something (like you said), it simply means you are defending something, usually controversial. You look pretty silly when you act all tough about your grammar skills.
Do yourself a favor and look it up. And follow EC's lead when someone called her on a word last week, she accepted it and thought it was funny.
I swear, you got a chip on your shoulder the size of a 1975 Buick LeSabre.
(http://1motormart.com/gallery/75bck02.jpg)
Yesterday I was walking and I had Z playing and Law Loy came on, and I was on a side street, and the car above (or one very similar) passed me by, and I look around and I thought it was the PERFECT car to start a video for such a hot song. Can you imagine, some dudes are in the car ready to find some ladies who stay home and don't get high, and they're in their special car...
Don't you think that's a GREAT idea?!
QuoteYesterday I was walking and I had Z playing and Law Loy came on, and I was on a side street, and the car above (or one very similar) passed me by, and I look around and I thought it was the PERFECT car to start a video for such a hot song. Can you imagine, some dudes are in the car ready to find some ladies who stay home and don't get high, and they're in their special car...
Don't you think that's a GREAT idea?!
This car?
(http://www.dennissylvesterhurd.com/graphics/pinto.jpg)
Quote
This car?
(http://www.dennissylvesterhurd.com/graphics/pinto.jpg)
for sure. don't you think? it's kind of an old funky car, you imagine kind of bassy funky sounds comin' out of there... songs about going full tilt all night and passing out...
wait! NO! i didn't see the picture of the car when i replied, i meant the one you'd posted above.
that car is pretty fun, too, though. but the lay low car needs to be big.
(http://www.fuselage.de/chr71/71chr03b.jpg)
hmmm....like this?
yep. that would do. i think the soft tops in both the cards are a real selling feature for the lay low car. i can't decide if i want it to be able to bounce or not.
that's gotta be some kind of woman in that picture to park the car in her living room. i am VERY fond of the porcelain white dog, as well as the fact that she's sitting on the table when there are two perfectly good chairs not in use. in addition, those are the longest candles i've ever seen, and the art director must've been very tired because everything is so precise except for the bit of carpet that is snagged under one of the chair legs.
holy crap. i hope that my golden ear training this weekend doesn't turn me into an obsessive compulsive detail person. don't want that at all.
but yeah. lay low video. want it.
Quoteyep. that would do. i think the soft tops in both the cards are a real selling feature for the lay low car. i can't decide if i want it to be able to bounce or not.
that's gotta be some kind of woman in that picture to park the car in her living room. i am VERY fond of the porcelain white dog, as well as the fact that she's sitting on the table when there are two perfectly good chairs not in use. in addition, those are the longest candles i've ever seen, and the art director must've been very tired because everything is so precise except for the bit of carpet that is snagged under one of the chair legs.
holy crap. i hope that my golden ear training this weekend doesn't turn me into an obsessive compulsive detail person. don't want that at all.
but yeah. lay low video. want it.
are you high?
Quote
are you high?
nope. but i'm probably acting funny. i've had heaphones on my head for the past three days and nights trying to decipher frequencies.
you're both hysterical, though.
;)
//
hey guys how bout this idea: LET THE JACKET DO WHAT THEY WANT!!!!
to be honest, think if u had a band, and you had bitches like yourselves telling you what to do....and how to do it...and constantly never being happy with ANYTHING!!!
get real and get a job....i like music...i love people who tape it...i bitched about mmj and pearl jam but id rather see mmj open for wsp...sorry this hippy is here to stay...and doesnt anyone remember what the band looks like??? i coulda swore they looked like some dirty hippies....i apologize to the jacket for my opinion but not to any of you.
:-/
Quote//
hey guys how bout this idea: LET THE JACKET DO WHAT THEY WANT!!!!
to be honest, think if u had a band, and you had bitches like yourselves telling you what to do....and how to do it...and constantly never being happy with ANYTHING!!!
get real and get a job....i like music...i love people who tape it...i bitched about mmj and pearl jam but id rather see mmj open for wsp...sorry this hippy is here to stay...and doesnt anyone remember what the band looks like??? i coulda swore they looked like some dirty hippies....i apologize to the jacket for my opinion but not to any of you.
perhaps the first time
ever a hippy has used the phrase, "get a job" as an insult.
Write it down...Monday, March 20, 2006 10:24 CST. The Hippy Generation has officially died.
Long live the hippies!
Man, that hippie must have run out of weed or patchouli or something. Quick, someon send that hippie a care pack. Mabey someone stole all his widespread and dead bootlegs. Where the Fuck did he find a computer anyway.
Also, for those at home keeping score I just scored the ditto hatrick on this thread.
(http://www.city.se/ArticlePages/200601/15/20060115210048_City458/0115Zettergren.jpg)
QuoteMan, that hippie must have run out of weed or patchouli or something. Quick, someon send that hippie a care pack. Mabey someone stole all his widespread and dead bootlegs. Where the Fuck did he find a computer anyway.
Also, for those at home keeping score I just scored the ditto hatrick on this thread.
(//%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttp://www.city.se/ArticlePages/200601/15/20060115210048_City458/0115Zettergren.jpg)
Throws hat onto ice(http://www.keys-2-knowledge.com/GRAPHICS/a-Nashville%20Predators.gif)
Quotehas anyone wondered why "Z" was protected? Maybe MMJ had some input on that except for the hidden software aspect of it, but maybe they want money from sales because after all their job is making good music for the fans to enjoy, but for a price... And for them by supporting the protected cd type then they would make money off of hard copies.
To address this I reprint the post from Jimmy Chavez (a/k/a Jim Olliges, a/k/a "Constrictor", a/k/a Jim James):
hi guys- here is one of many letters we have recieved from fans who bought our new album:
"Hi, my name is ---- and I'm a mailman in Canada.I like to listen to music while I deliver the mail in Canada.I use my trusty sony minidisc player to listen to the music I like.I like your music,so I went out and bought your new cd "Z" and tried to record it onto my minidisc player and this new security thing that is on the disc won't let me,and now I want to tear my eyeballs out of my head by sticking my hands up my ass and reaching into my head mashing through my brain so I can get to my eyeball cords and pulling them back down through my ass.So as you can see I'm not to happy about the fact that I can't listen to your music while I'm delivering the fucking mail in fucking Canada. "
although this mail is HILARIOUS-it is very saddening. we are in no way in favor of the copy protection devices that are causing some people problems with loading and listening to the record on their computers. we were told this would not be a problem and are upset that it has become one. hopefully wth alll the tips people are posting on the site this problem can be overcome....and hopefully we can take care of it in the future. just believe me when i say that this is not intentional- and that we and everyone we work with hope that this can be solved asap.
thanks,
jim.
Quote
As far as the merch goes, does anyone else hate it when bands have toooo much merch? I'm glad they dont sell MMJ trucker hats, track jackets and coffee mugs and assorted bullshit.
Hey I love my MMJ trucker hat! ;D
(http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/5317/mmjtruckerhat9ic.jpg)
I NEED one of those.
Tony, I was wearing my t shirt just the other day. You should wear your hat to the show and I'll wear my t-shirt, and we can be the COOLEST people in Nashville!! ;D
THAT HAT, I NEEDS IT. PABST LOGO WITH mmj ON IT, OH MAN YOU HAVE NO IDEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
where the FUCK did you get that!!!!!!!!!
you know, you guys are an awefully proud, self-congratulatory bunch.
ooh, 'hat trick.' oooh. oooh.
i'm no huge fan of WSP, but if any of you guys were half as open-minded as you claim to be, you would realize that WSP has their heart in the right place when i comes to music, specifically live music. And MMJ opening for them wouldn't be all that bad, IF IT WAS 2001.
And that hippies aren't all bad, though they can be just as close-minded as anyone else (hipsters? anyone?)
by the way, if a 'hippie' goes so far as to find a computer to tell YOU that YOU need to get a J-O-B(because you spend all your time posting on every thread to prove you're cool and you're the #1 fan , and that you're super-cool cause you KNOW you are and everyone needs to know it and should know it because it means something) then maybe you should listen, maybe you're spending too much time on the boards (at least, i think that was his implication). it was an insult and it was contradictory for EMPHASIS.
and THAT shouldve been a hint and a half for your ass(es)
unfortunately, you guys were to busy sniffing each other's to notice.
Quote(because you spend all your time posting on every thread to prove you're cool and you're the #1 fan
wow, you like totally had me until this; you can't gripe about others posting on a board,
when you're posting on the very same board. kinda like Republicans bitching about the media on a talk show...
and then...
Quoteyou guys are an awefully proud, self-congratulatory bunch.
be it ever so humble...there's no place like home.... :)
*hangs head in shame*
Quoteyou know, you guys are an awefully proud, self-congratulatory bunch.
[size=8]congratulations everyone!! especially ec!![/size]
OH SPLAT SPLAT!
- we're all just having a good time here, you know, joking around and stuff. No need to take it so seriously. But be careful, we are in 4th place nation wide as far a fan message boards go. Someone out there knows their shit.
-Sorry we pissed you off about the whole "hippie telling you to get a J-O-B segment". The irony is simply fantastic, the ol' role reversal if you will. You know, hippies (true hippies) aren't known for their strong work effort, so the comedic quality of such a statement was not lost on me. Now what I find interesting is the implied authoritative posturing of such a statement "get a J-O-B" and how you feel this is some form of open mindedness. That even makes it funnier, IMO.
Can't get much more parental than that, you know, get a job? Get a job? Get it?
-It's like when Avril Lavigne was introduced to the world as "punk". Then "punk" changed for millions of people and punk was tame and marketable and sassy. This is what's happened to the poor old hippy. "Hippies" now have jobs, they follow their favorite bands in their gas guzzling SUV's with their WSP and PHISH stickers, they bathe and are educated. That's sad (and funny) to me, that people pose like that. And then attack me b/c I like MMJ and post here. Very non-hippiesque, this need for power, not loving, authoritative stance. These people are not hippies, so...
-so splat, splat, how 'bout you don't take this board so personal? I mean, you're against people coming here, posting their views, having fun, poking at other bands and, most importantly, we poke at each other. We're not a group of posers or wannabees, we're just regular idiots, with jobs, who enjoy spending time with each other. We are smart and dumb and closed minded and open minded and we smell and fart and smoke and drink and don't drink and pray and hate and argue and agree and make-up....we're like "the American Heartland of band message boards". We're like Iowa with some European, Far East, and Australian influence. Welcome to Des Moines, take your shoes off...
-It's almost certain that when someone challenges someone to be "open minded" it's usually projection. (Psychology says projection is a defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits).
-And some advice, I tried to take on the entire Ryan Adams fan board to talk about how lame he is (and his fans) after the Ryman debacle here in Nashville a couple of years ago; and I did not succeed, at all. So, in the same light (and I know you're not saying MMJ is lame), coming here, calling us closed minded butt sniffers (which is actually a compliment to most here) just makes you look silly as we go on with our daily, closed minded, MMJ worshipping, unemployed, WSP hating, butt sniffing, congratulatory, waste of a life selves. ie, we don't take you seriously :-/
-But we still love and care about you (honestly).
>OK splat splat, you can stop reading now, the rest is for all the closed minded butt sniffers<
Congratulations guys...
(http://www.bartosz.com/funnies/sniffers.jpg)
On another note.......... This is my 2,000th post BITCHES. [size=29]NUMBER ONE FAN, RIGHT FUCKING HERE!!!!!!!!! RECOGNIZE [/size]
well said, ycartrob....
(http://www.apachelanding.com/turkey%20butt%20sniffer.jpg)
congratulations Sweatboard!
(http://www.defcom.com.au/images/galleries/kingstonpark/images/Winner.jpg)
My party is going on right NOW in Off Topic.
wow WSP is a touchy subject, why not let everyone just be, man? i do like WSP's stuff with vic chesnutt, thats it.
as far as the rest of it goes, yeah youre taking it a bit personally. ive gotten in to some pretty heavy discussions about "real shit" (not music) and still dont hold any grudges. im one of the biggest assholes around here (maybe the biggest), and i still have a few fans. maybe i can give you some lessons... ;D
QuoteBut be careful, we are in 4th place nation wide as far a fan message boards go.
most importantly, we poke at each other. We're not a group of posers or wannabees, we're just regular idiots, with jobs, who enjoy spending time with each other. We are smart and dumb and closed minded and open minded and we smell and fart and smoke and drink and don't drink and pray and hate and argue and agree and make-up....we're like "the American Heartland of band message boards". We're like Iowa with some European, Far East, and Australian influence.
First of all. Where did you get that info? i think it's pretty cool...
Second: Well put Ycartrob, well put.
I still haven't heard who WSP is--anyone want to expound on this?
P.S.--I work for a pharmaceutical company and I congratulate myself everyday I wake up so there NYAH! :P
You really don't want to know....
Spreadheads follow?
Man, even I know. ;)
Congratulations for not knowing!!!
I should be a WSP fan and I even own a couple of their concerts and a few of their albums... but I don't like them, even with Mickey Houser: R.I.P..
As for not letting in the hippy element: Too fucking late. Don't play Bonnaroo then, especially early in that festival's legacy. The hippy element goes hand-in-hand with the jam scene, but that scene isn't dominated by hippies anymore. I'm living proof of that. Radiohead has a pretty sizable jamhead following and so does bluegrass legend Del McCoury, Bela Fleck, John Scofield, Medeski Martin & Wood, Norah Jones, Bob Dylan, Neil Young etc... MMJ should be proud to be in that list.
oh jaimoe. we aaaaaaaall know you're a big damn hippie. quit pretendin' that you're not. ;)
Quoteoh jaimoe. we aaaaaaaall know you're a big damn hippie. quit pretendin' that you're not. ;)
You found me out. Maybe you know my father:
(http://www.portalmarket.com/gfx/wavy.jpg%20)
Quote
You found me out. Maybe you know my father:
(http://www.portalmarket.com/gfx/wavy.jpg%20 %20 )
The funny thing is, that actually looks like MY father. That's no lie.
"We must be in heaven man!"
Okay how does someone not know who WSP is? I am not a huge fan, but my friend Jon is obsessed with them and he hates hippies too. I think MMJ needs to tour more. Alot more! I have only seen them once and I can't go to Bonnaroo. Great bands, but Wakarusa is closer and smaller festivals are way better anyway.
well, once you say "wide spread panic" people might get it, but if you're not into them, then you might not catch on that that's what wsp means. you only know something if'n you know it. :)