Pop tart Spears

[tomEisenbraun]

Ah, God bless 4am.

Thanks Tracy, you made a good point about those who physically can't fulfill those roles. And I know it's slightly flawed logic, but I'm kind of working on discovering the point I'm trying to make. I haven't gotten there yet, so this helps.

That said, you have a great point, too Doc, from being in both roles there. And I don't see anything wrong with women who do either. I think though, as a whole, it's getting more and more uncommon to see mothers who really embrace being mothers. Especially up north. Up there, you do it because your husband is rich enough for you not to work. And then you don't really mother, you just get a nanny and get drinkin earlier.

I suppose my views on the subject are pretty traditional. I certainly don't support oppressive behavior, and I think that certainly men being more powerful has led to oppression where it shouldn't have been. But before the oppression, there is something good and right. But it has to do with giving up a lot of the power that we might hold near and dear. I think the reason we have the problems between both sexes is that many of the people involved believe that they can be the stronger sex, or that one is more right, and things get thrown around as comparisons. But there's not even room for comparison, there, I don't believe. Men and women are created as complements of eachother, and need to embrace that, not fight over it. We've all got so much to give eachother, and men need to understand that we are here to respect women, and not to take any kind of advantage of any sort of them. And women ought to expect that of us, and support us in our respect of them. I'm serious, I think Tracy's right. If women stopped taking most of the BS that men give, they would find that they could almost force a respect out of the men who wouldn't give it before. I think it is a man's job to give that respect in the first place, but it is certainly unnaceptable to have this many men in America completely failing proudly at it.

And there's probably a lot i didn't say and loopholes everywhere, but does that help what I started to say last night?

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

as a whole, it's getting more and more uncommon to see mothers who really embrace being mothers

No offense, but what does that mean?  Stay home and have no career?  

[primushead]

Nah, Tom.  I get what you're getting at.  As well as everyone here who has spoken up.  You've all made excellent points.  

I don't think this issue will ever be truly resolved, but then again, I'm only 21 and really don't understand my own role, much less a woman's, completely.  I'm just gonna sit back, respect myself and women, and hope all goes well from there. I think that's the best we can all do as a society.

Or something.

[sweatboard]

Wait, so they are makeing Pop Tarts in diffrent shapes now?

[MMJ_fanatic]

No offense, but what does that mean?  Stay home and have no career?  

John--I get the feeling that this was a reference to the number of women experienceing the post-partum depression stuff and drowning their babies or worse, then there's that whole Madonna-jumping-on-the-adopt-a-poor-African-child-thing (motherhood with a trophy child?).  I am just guessing here.....

[ycartrob]

I think though, as a whole, it's getting more and more uncommon to see mothers who really embrace being mothers.

It's been my experience, both proffessionaly and personally, that it's mostly the mother who "sticks around" and raises kids. My dad left our family and I know a lot of friends whose fathers did the same. As a family therapist here in Nashville, I can honestly say that most of the kids we encounter (easily over 75%) are from single mother homes.

We have really screwed our kids over when the mother is expected to be a mother and the father finds it to be optional.

[MMJ_fanatic]

We have really screwed our kids over when the mother is expected to be a mother and the father finds it to be optional.

Absofuckinlutely man!

[megisnotreal]

To me, feminism is about having a choice--and having a society that respects those choices. A woman should be allowed to persue a lifestyle brings her happiness, whether she be a traditional mom, a CEO, a stripper, a firefighter, or what the hell ever she wants to be.

Some people have a problem with feminism because they assume that all "feminists" are of the radical persuasion. That isn't so.

I don't have a desire to have kids or be a "stay-at-home" mom, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect women who choose to do so. And I most certainly don't view professional women as those who are neglecting to fill their "destined" roles.

[Jaimoe]

A woman should be allowed to persue a lifestyle brings her happiness, whether she be a traditional mom, a CEO, a stripper, a firefighter, or what the hell ever she wants to be.

 

Mentioning having a career as a stripper as a choice is a loaded statement. Radical, not to mention  socialist and even some liberal feminists would argue that this isn't the case with reference to girls/women being conditioned and sexually objectified from birth in our male dominated society.

[tomEisenbraun]

No offense, but what does that mean?  Stay home and have no career?  

Not at all. My stepmom works full-time with some form of IRS something or other and comes home and sits my half-sister in front of the Disney channel. It's not uncommon at all, either. Look around you and there's a ton of women who have other people or the tv raising their kids. I know I'm going to have to work, and I know my wife is going to have to work, seeing as I'll be a teacher and (Lord-willing, if things keep looking the way they have been recently) she will be, too. And I know that factors in, and I know everyone is tired at the end of a workday, but the point in having children is to raise a child or four. And by raise, teach them everything you know and grow them into a beautiful human being. Not to teach them everything Disney channel knows and to grow them up into a beautiful Raven. I have complete respect for working mothers, as my mom has had to be one since before I was completely potty-trained, but she worked hard and then came home to work hard to be a good mother, too.

And don't think I'm leaving dads out of this by any means. I've grown up with a decent example of how not to be a good dad. And I've learned from that, too. Is this thread still about feminism only, or can we expand it to both gender roles?

This is good and interesting.

[bug]

I've thought about it, and as much as I love kids I just don't think I would be willing to have any unless I could be a stay at home mom.  I have a deep amount of respect for people who are able to work full time and still do a good job raising children, I don't think it's something I could do.  I really do think it's best if one parent is able to focus on the home and the family but that's strictly my opinion and I completely respect anyone who choses not to do that.  

[MMJ_fanatic]

I don't expect women to be walking breasts or vaginas.  

I love it when you talk dirty John  ;)

[bug]

We have really screwed our kids over when the mother is expected to be a mother and the father finds it to be optional.

That's so true.  I notice this about my family, the men aren't expected to do anything concerning children.  When my brother helps his daughter with  her homework my mother acts like he's father of the year.  To be fair, he does a million times better than our dad did with us.  Even though my parents remained married until I was 17 my dad participated very little in our raising.  

[FarmerYoda]

everybody keeps using the general "we". what does "we" mean? we as people? we as men? we as women? (dependent  on whose speaking i suppose...)

i don't think that the point of this is to at all come to an agreement... i think everyone is raising some really interesting points...
i'm fucknig fifteen years old. I don't want children... i mean, i don't think i do anyway...

and meg - you're right. i just hate the title of "feminist" but really, IMO i think that anyone who wants ANYBODY (man OR woman) to have the RIGHT to choose without it seeming foreign techincally falls under that title...

gender and class and roles in society are the best to discuss... ahhh CONTROVERSY CONTROVERSY!!!