whats the deal with frank ocean

[Tracy 2112]

In a market swamped with mediocre R&B, which isn't R&B anyway if we really want to be honest, how better to make yourself stand out than with a little cryptic message about your sexuality that gets everybody talking about you?

Cynical.....hell yes!

Agree

A friend of mine is a sculptor and pretty good, but socially he is awkward, plus he is a conservative and dresses like an average guy. We have had a running joke for about 20 years that if he marketed himself as a gay guy with some sort of a fetish (a parrot? a muslim boyfriend? a name change?) he would at least be  more popular as an artist.

I always thought a lot of R & B guys and rappers were gay (Kanye West) but just dared not come out.

[Tracy 2112]

the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality?  When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed

video is not the best but what I could find

http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU

For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......

Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!

Really?  A marketing niche?  Cynical much?

As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.

If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged.  He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.

I feel like his publicist.  But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.

It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen 

[ellisintransit]

In a market swamped with mediocre R&B, which isn't R&B anyway if we really want to be honest, how better to make yourself stand out than with a little cryptic message about your sexuality that gets everybody talking about you?

Cynical.....hell yes!

Cynical and true.  Modern R&B is so far out of my wheelhouse I won't listen to anyone with that moniker because it mostly blows.  All the news reports about Frank Ocean and his sexuality intrigued me, and therefore I actually listened to the music, and Channel Orange is most definitely in my top 5 albums this year.

[Paulie_Walnuts]

the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality?  When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed

video is not the best but what I could find

http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU

For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......

Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!

Really?  A marketing niche?  Cynical much?

As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.

If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged.  He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.

I feel like his publicist.  But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.

It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen 

"Being gay in the black community isn't in,...." also spot on. Try to spot the black faces in the clip posted earlier in the thread....all I saw were a lot of winsome white student-types!

Anyway, each to their own but on a musical front the four clips I just listened to were mediocre at best to me. But then again that type of "R&B" isn't my thing anyway.

[exist10z]

the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality?  When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed

video is not the best but what I could find

http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU

For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......

Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!

Really?  A marketing niche?  Cynical much?

As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.

If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged.  He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.

I feel like his publicist.  But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.

It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen 

I can't decide whether that's more homophobic or racist, it's probably a tie.  I am sure you don't think it's either, and I guess that's why it's so disappointing.  I kinda hope you're not serious, but it's tough to tell (and others clearly have similar feelings, not everyone is kidding).

I guess MMJ just covers Erykah Badu, Curtis Mayfield and Lionle Ritchie to lure in black listeners?  Or maybe to appear particularly 'cool' and hip, and get people like me to listen? Or, here's a novel concept, maybe they just appreciate the music.  Maybe it's not a marketing angle.  But we would never accuse MMJ of working a marketing angle, they're sincere (I believe they are), but Frank Ocean (since you don't like his music, and maybe because he's black?) is inventing sexual orientations and musical tastes simply to sell more records.  He couldn't possibly be sincere.  Do you have any idea how cynical that sounds?

Have you actually listened to the music?  You realize a large part of his appeal is what he sings about and how he says it right?  You may or may not have any interest in the topics he covers, the people he describes, or the situations he illuminates, but his lyrical expositions on the world he encounters, and his 'honesty' (genuine?) is generally why he is praised.  Do we ever take anyone at face value anymore?  I guess we are really off of Frank Ocean entirely at this point, and onto a discussion of 'reality' and marketing in modern entertainment culture.

The direction this thread has taken makes me really sad.  It's one thing to not like certain music, this has gone somewhere else entirely...

[Tracy 2112]

the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality?  When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed

video is not the best but what I could find

http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU

For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......

Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!

Really?  A marketing niche?  Cynical much?

As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.

If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged.  He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.

I feel like his publicist.  But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.

It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen 

I can't decide whether that's more homophobic or racist, it's probably a tie.  I am sure you don't think it's either, and I guess that's why it's so disappointing.  I kinda hope you're not serious, but it's tough to tell (and others clearly have similar feelings, not everyone is kidding).

I guess MMJ just covers Erykah Badu, Curtis Mayfield and Lionle Ritchie to lure in black listeners?  Or maybe to appear particularly 'cool' and hip, and get people like me to listen? Or, here's a novel concept, maybe they just appreciate the music.  Maybe it's not a marketing angle.  But we would never accuse MMJ of working a marketing angle, they're sincere (I believe they are), but Frank Ocean (since you don't like his music, and maybe because he's black?) is inventing sexual orientations and musical tastes simply to sell more records.  He couldn't possibly be sincere.  Do you have any idea how cynical that sounds?

Have you actually listened to the music?  You realize a large part of his appeal is what he sings about and how he says it right?  You may or may not have any interest in the topics he covers, the people he describes, or the situations he illuminates, but his lyrical expositions on the world he encounters, and his 'honesty' (genuine?) is generally why he is praised.  Do we ever take anyone at face value anymore?  I guess we are really off of Frank Ocean entirely at this point, and onto a discussion of 'reality' and marketing in modern entertainment culture.

The direction this thread has taken makes me really sad.  It's one thing to not like certain music, this has gone somewhere else entirely...

Did I say he invented his sexual orientation? Your knee jerk reaction is seeing that. Please read my post again; you are making stuff up. I never said he invented his sexual orientation.

Do you think when Madonna kissed Christina and Britney on stage that they are all gay? Or were they marketing something?

When record execs get the gangster rap out to white suburbia (where a large % of the revenue comes from) are they marketing the music or the message or the fear?

Open your eyes man. He is a commercial commodity.

I tell people how anything dealing with race and sexual orientation can be twisted into racism and homophobia; it's 1 step short of critical thinking. Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic? I have never been accused of being either, so, please, enlighten me. (however, I was called a N lover in high school back in the 70's)

This would be a much better discussion about Frank Ocean if you weren't so emotional and weren't putting words in my mouth.

[Paulie_Walnuts]

Well the title of the thread is "What's the deal with Frank Ocean" so I don't think the thread has taken a turn in any particular direction. It was saying, "I don't get it at all." If the thread was an "I love Frank Ocean's music" thread you could say people were out of order for using it to criticise.

I'd never listened to Frank Ocean and this thread made me at least listen to four songs, none of which really get me going. I don't think anyone was offensive about his music, but simply commented that they either liked it or didn't like it.

As for anything "homophobic" or "racist" in Tracy's post you might need to explain yourself there I'm afraid. You've certainly made me chuckle on a Friday afternoon! I can't see any homophobic or racist comments. Cynical yes, and we're holding our hands up to that one. We might allege that you are naive but that's just a question of how people look at things. It's not a crime.

[exist10z]

We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.).  This is in the music section.  You don't like his music, it's been noted.  Like I care.  I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever.  Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged.  I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not.  Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in.  Because gay and black is 'in'. 

[Tracy 2112]

We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.).  This is in the music section.  You don't like his music, it's been noted.  Like I care.  I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever.  Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged.  I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not.  Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in.  Because gay and black is 'in'. 

You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!

Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?

[exist10z]

We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.).  This is in the music section.  You don't like his music, it's been noted.  Like I care.  I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever.  Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged.  I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not.  Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in.  Because gay and black is 'in'. 

You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!

Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?

Again, not the place.  Start another thread in off-topics, quote what you wrote, and I'll try to explain.  I don't think you'll get it or agree, but I assure you I will take the time and effort to make my case.

Oh, and I didn't call you a racist and a homophobe, I said what you wrote was racist and homophobic.  Big difference, which is often overlooked.  Even the most mellow people sometimes lose their temper, if every action we ever took signified everything we ever were, we would all be in trouble.

[Tracy 2112]

We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.).  This is in the music section.  You don't like his music, it's been noted.  Like I care.  I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever.  Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged.  I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not.  Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in.  Because gay and black is 'in'. 

You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!

Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?

Again, not the place.  Start another thread in off-topics, quote what you wrote, and I'll try to explain.  I don't think you'll get it or agree, but I assure you I will take the time and effort to make my case.

All I will say is I posted  the same way as if I were talking to any of my dear gay or black friends. And I know they would understand my point b/c of the depth of the discussions we have had about race and sexual orientation and how they have enlightened this white guy into what it's like being oppressed in our society.

You want to jump to a conclusion so quickly that I am racist or homophobic simply b/c I pointed out that a certain race and sexual orientation may be more commercially viable than another at this point in time really doesn't warrant an interest in me about your opinion of anything else. I am glad black is in. I am glad gay is in. I am glad Hispanic is in. And, I am glad that playing the race card is on its way out.

[Crispy]

I don't see why this thread can't contain this discussion, the title isn't "What's the deal with Frank Ocean's music?" (employing capitalization and punctuation, just because) and it seemed like e_wind was asking about the guy himself in addition to the music. The mention of race or sexual orientation, even as possible factors in his popularity, doesn't imply racism or homophobia.

That said,

[exist10z]

We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.).  This is in the music section.  You don't like his music, it's been noted.  Like I care.  I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever.  Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged.  I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not.  Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in.  Because gay and black is 'in'. 

You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!

Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?

Again, not the place.  Start another thread in off-topics, quote what you wrote, and I'll try to explain.  I don't think you'll get it or agree, but I assure you I will take the time and effort to make my case.

All I will say is I posted  the same way as if I were talking to any of my dear gay or black friends. And I know they would understand my point b/c of the depth of the discussions we have had about race and sexual orientation and how they have enlightened this white guy into what it's like being oppressed in our society.

You want to jump to a conclusion so quickly that I am racist or homophobic simply b/c I pointed out that a certain race and sexual orientation may be more commercially viable than another at this point in time really doesn't warrant an interest in me about your opinion of anything else. I am glad black is in. I am glad gay is in. I am glad Hispanic is in. And, I am glad that playing the race card is on its way out.

I must have added this while you were writing a response, wish you would have seen it first...

Oh, and I didn't call you a racist and a homophobe, I said what you wrote was racist and homophobic.  Big difference, which is often overlooked.  Even the most mellow people sometimes lose their temper, if every action we ever took signified everything we ever were, we would all be in trouble.

But regardless, I am sure people who know you would have known what you meant, but people who don't wouldn't necessarily.  Because it was racist and homophobic.  There's a reason there's a 'race card' and those reasons are as valid today as they ever were.  I am sure if your gay and black friends are lucky enough not to be able to explain the reasons to you, you could easily find others who could.

[Tracy 2112]

I don't see why this thread can't contain this discussion, the title isn't "What's the deal with Frank Ocean's music?" (employing capitalization and punctuation, just because) and it seemed like e_wind was asking about the guy himself in addition to the music. The mention of race or sexual orientation, even as possible factors in his popularity, doesn't imply racism or homophobia.

That said,

2 weeks ago I had never heard of Frank Ocean and now I am defending my integrity and honor b/c of him.

I tell you, his marketing team is brilliant!

[exist10z]

BTW - Consequence of Sound's album of the year... You guessed it! Frank Ocean - Channel Orange

Guess they just wanted to give it to a black gay guy...

[e_wind]

As for anything "homophobic" or "racist" in Tracy's post you might need to explain yourself there I'm afraid. You've certainly made me chuckle on a Friday afternoon! I can't see any homophobic or racist comments. Cynical yes, and we're holding our hands up to that one. We might allege that you are naive but that's just a question of how people look at things. It's not a crime.

This pretty much sums up this argument. Tracy's post certainly wasn't racist or homo, but it certainly was cynical (and spot on).


As for the content of this thread, It was a question encompassing everything that is Frank Ocean. I hadn't heard of him until CoS posted that Fake Plastic Trees cover and now he's everywhere.

[Penny Lane]

I have no idea who Frank Ocean is, but seems like Tracy was talking about EFFECT not INTENT of the artist..

Tracy is just stating that he probably appeals to this audience, fills this niche (not racist or homophobic, just making a statement). I think it's okay to talk about gender/race/sexual persuasion when making statements about demographics or why something's popular. Tracy isn't saying that he's good or not good based on those reasons.

At least that's how I took it..but exist, I totally see why you could take it that way.

[Fully]

I really took what Tracy said as cynicism about the timing and publicizing of Ocean's statement. I didn't take it as racist or homophobic at all.

[parkervb]

yea, i didn't see much racism/homophobia in some of the posts.  The acknowledged cynicism is kind of sad IMO.  It has to be a bummer to always see things through that lens.

[exist10z]

Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic.  I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic.  However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic.  I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.

Maybe it's a perception problem.  As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me.  If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me.  I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.

I guess the other issue, is that this whole thing has been presented as a, 'this must be all marketing because I don't get it'.  That's pretty arrogant.  Like I said, CoS and Paste both rated it the best album of the year (Paste's #2 was Father John Misti, was that all 'white beard guy' marketing?).  So, it starts to look like, 'well, I don't like it, so it couldn't be very good, and since it's getting blown up, the hype must be because of the sexuality or the race.'  There's lot's of shit getting hyped up that I don't get at all, but that's not necessarily because there's anything wrong with the music, or it really isn't as good as purported, just maybe that it isn't what I am into.  I'm sure Swans and Death Grips and Godspeed! are great, innovative and amazing albums, but it's not my thing.  I don't suggest they're all hype, or that their accliam is the product of select sub-groups though, I assume it has value that I just don't appreciate.  That aspect of this thread has also bothered me.

Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time.  I'm gonna go put on some Frank Ocean and chill out, because his gay black hipster R&B hype appeals to 'people like me'...