whats the deal with frank ocean

[Tracy 2112]

Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic.  I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic.  However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic.  I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.

Maybe it's a perception problem.  As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me.  If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me.  I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.

Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.

People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?

Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.

You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.

And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.

[Tracy 2112]

Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time.

Right. You're just going to throw out the race card and carry on your merry little way, talking about how you don't like disagreements on message boards.

You're a piece of work.

Unless you're trolling me up, then it's on me, but I can handle that.

[exist10z]

Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic.  I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic.  However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic.  I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.

Maybe it's a perception problem.  As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me.  If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me.  I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.

Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.

People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?

Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.

You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.

And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.

Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks.  That's constructive.

At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. 

[exist10z]

Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time.

Right. You're just going to throw out the race card and carry on your merry little way, talking about how you don't like disagreements on message boards.

You're a piece of work.

Unless you're trolling me up, then it's on me, but I can handle that.

So which is greater, my white guilt or your white persecution complex?

[Fully]

Exist- I like Ocean's album myself, so take that for what it's worth. But I still can agree with Tracy that it's very trendy to be gay or bisexual. I'm not as cynical about Ocean's letter though. In the black community, homosexuality is much less accepted particularly for males. Even though it garnered Ocean a lot of publicity as his album was coming out, it was a very ballsy move for an African American male to publicly announce his sexual ambiguity to the world. When was the last time we saw a rap artist announce his homosexuality? Never. Does anyone really think there aren't gay, black rappers? Ocean is on the vanguard with his announcement. As someone who has watched her gay students come out of the closet at younger and younger ages over the past 22 years, it has to be a good thing when artists and others in the public eye are also open about their homosexuality. Hell, even that stupid Katy Perry song about kissing a girl brought about a change. That school year lesbians blossomed like the mold that covers my walls in my classroom.

[Tracy 2112]

Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic.  I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic.  However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic.  I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.

Maybe it's a perception problem.  As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me.  If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me.  I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.

Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.

People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?

Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.

You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.

And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.

Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks.  That's constructive.

At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. 

No, no, no; I didn't say YOU were suffering from white guilt, I said you "sound" like you are suffering from white guilt. And I didn't say you "are" one of those PC people I used to work with, I said you "reminded" me of them. You are reading waaaay too much into my statements.

Did I do that right? Did I effectively back out of a statement I made? I sure wouldn't want to say anything I didn't mean and I am not here to make waves or ruffle feathers. I am hear to figure out what the deal is with Frank Ocean.

[Tracy 2112]

Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time.

Right. You're just going to throw out the race card and carry on your merry little way, talking about how you don't like disagreements on message boards.

You're a piece of work.

Unless you're trolling me up, then it's on me, but I can handle that.

So which is greater, my white guilt or your white persecution complex?

I smell a troll

[exist10z]

Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic.  I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic.  However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic.  I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.

Maybe it's a perception problem.  As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me.  If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me.  I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.

Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.

People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?

Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.

You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.

And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.

Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks.  That's constructive.

At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. 

No, no, no; I didn't say YOU were suffering from white guilt, I said you "sound" like you are suffering from white guilt. And I didn't say you "are" one of those PC people I used to work with, I said you "reminded" me of them. You are reading waaaay too much into my statements.

Did I do that right? Did I effectively back out of a statement I made? I sure wouldn't want to say anything I didn't mean and I am not here to make waves or ruffle feathers. I am hear to figure out what the deal is with Frank Ocean.

That actually would have been a pretty nice attempt, except you actually did say, "and you got a bad case of it." in reference to 'white guilt'.  So there was nothing veiled about about your attempt to undermine my argument by undermining me personally (ad hominem).

And for the record, I do indeed have 'white guilt', if what that entails is feeling regret about what people in power, people like me and my family and friends, did and continue to do to a vast segment of the population for no other reason than the color of their skin.  But that was a long time ago right?  150 years, or wait 50 years, oh wait, maybe yesterday.

If you think that invalidates my opinion, or I'm too sensitive, or that I just don't see things clearly and am misguided, that's fine.  I wasn't here to receive validation of my socio-political, social justice or humanitarian positions.  I was here to discuss music.  I am having a tough time recalling now, but I think I recall enjoying your thoughts on music.

[Tracy 2112]

Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic.  I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic.  However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic.  I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.

Maybe it's a perception problem.  As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me.  If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me.  I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.

Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.

People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?

Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.

You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.

And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.

Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks.  That's constructive.

At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. 

No, no, no; I didn't say YOU were suffering from white guilt, I said you "sound" like you are suffering from white guilt. And I didn't say you "are" one of those PC people I used to work with, I said you "reminded" me of them. You are reading waaaay too much into my statements.

Did I do that right? Did I effectively back out of a statement I made? I sure wouldn't want to say anything I didn't mean and I am not here to make waves or ruffle feathers. I am hear to figure out what the deal is with Frank Ocean.

That actually would have been a pretty nice attempt, except you actually did say, "and you got a bad case of it." in reference to 'white guilt'.  So there was nothing veiled about about your attempt to undermine my argument by undermining me personally (ad hominem).

And for the record, I do indeed have 'white guilt', if what that entails is feeling regret about what people in power, people like me and my family and friends, did and continue to do to a vast segment of the population for no other reason than the color of their skin.  But that was a long time ago right?  150 years, or wait 50 years, oh wait, maybe yesterday.

If you think that invalidates my opinion, or I'm too sensitive, or that I just don't see things clearly and am misguided, that's fine.  I wasn't here to receive validation of my socio-political, social justice or humanitarian positions.  I was here to discuss music.  I am having a tough time recalling now, but I think I recall enjoying your thoughts on music.

I suggest you address the other 6-7 people who agree with me; I am done.

[ManNamedTruth]

I'm with Tracy on this one. I remember when it was a huge deal when Ellen Degeneres's character came out on her TV show, now it's like required to have at least one gay character on every show.

[capt. scotty]

Posted this on another message board about a week ago, & Ill just stick with it

"I had listened to samples of the album awhile back and it didnt grab me, but that was a poor choice as this sort of r&b fusion (dont know what else to call it) is way out of my wheelhouse. After continuing to see it at the top of year end lists, had to give it a proper listen a few days ago. It is very good, was especially surprised I like(d) it as much as I did. Great song writing, some very intelligent lyrics and wordplay. I like how this has a sound based in r&b, and there are definitely some pure r&b songs there like Thinkin Bout You, but a lot of the album has more hip hop influenced lyrics. I can't argue seeing it so highly rated. Didnt realize he was affiliated with Odd Future."





There was at least a half dozen people giving the album props on that board, and it isnt even a music related forum, but I had no clue about his gay comment or him being gay, and no one there mentioned it. I would have assumed before reading this thread an album like this isnt something most MMJ fans would enjoy, so Im not surprised, but I think this is a great album. I listen to a pretty wide range of music (current country and rap rap excluded), and I could see why many are praising this album from the first listen. I listened to Nostalgia, Ultra yesterday for the first time, and it might be even better. Guy has talent.

If you wanna talk about about overrated albums and whats the deal, I present Kendrick Lamar. I appreciate the concept album aspect of Good Kid, mAAd city, but that album does nothing for me for the most part. A few interesting songs, but mostly it sounds like any other mainstream rap album these days to me.

[exist10z]

Posted this on another message board about a week ago, & Ill just stick with it

"I had listened to samples of the album awhile back and it didnt grab me, but that was a poor choice as this sort of r&b fusion (dont know what else to call it) is way out of my wheelhouse. After continuing to see it at the top of year end lists, had to give it a proper listen a few days ago. It is very good, was especially surprised I like(d) it as much as I did. Great song writing, some very intelligent lyrics and wordplay. I like how this has a sound based in r&b, and there are definitely some pure r&b songs there like Thinkin Bout You, but a lot of the album has more hip hop influenced lyrics. I can't argue seeing it so highly rated. Didnt realize he was affiliated with Odd Future."





There was at least a half dozen people giving the album props on that board, and it isnt even a music related forum, but I had no clue about his gay comment or him being gay, and no one there mentioned it. I would have assumed before reading this thread an album like this isnt something most MMJ fans would enjoy, so Im not surprised, but I think this is a great album. I listen to a pretty wide range of music (current country and rap rap excluded), and I could see why many are praising this album from the first listen. I listened to Nostalgia, Ultra yesterday for the first time, and it might be even better. Guy has talent.

If you wanna talk about about overrated albums and whats the deal, I present Kendrick Lamar. I appreciate the concept album aspect of Good Kid, mAAd city, but that album does nothing for me for the most part. A few interesting songs, but mostly it sounds like any other mainstream rap album these days to me.

This.  It's the lyrics, it's the beats. It's just freaking great.  If you don't like it, that's cool, but the cat is super talented...

[YimYodd]

....another point of view

     http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/12/frank_ocean_is_boring.php

[capt. scotty]

....another point of view

     http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/12/frank_ocean_is_boring.php

Cant believe I read that whole review. Not only did it take forever to actually talk about this album, but it pretty much wrote it off all together. Like exist10z said before me, this isnt an album for everyone, but to just completely throw it aside like this reviewer did and not give Ocean any credit is ridiculous. Whether you like it or not, this is a good album.