Z's great and all for what it is.........

[ycartrob]

I think his comments were meant as sarcasm...about "seeing the light" per se.

Who knows.

I'm just tired of people saying this, that or the other and when you challenge them to look at things differently, they say things like, "I knew I should never have come here and say anyhting bad about MMJ" or "they are untouchable" or "we worship everything they do".

I simply like their music and am trying to enlighten people that everything is not so black and white.

No biggie, no whoop-ta-do, no enchilada, no chupacabra...

[Greg Mariotti]

I must admit that I'm new to MMJ, but "It beats 4 u" is an amazing song and I can't get it out of my head or my cd player. The rest of Z is great as well (except for "Wonderful Man").....

[Jellyfish]

I must admit that I'm new to MMJ, but "It beats 4 u" is an amazing song and I can't get it out of my head or my cd player. The rest of Z is great as well (except for "Wonderful Man").....

That is my least fav song on Z too..I love the lyrics...just not crazy bout the music.

[thebigbang]

Hey, no worries mates.  I had a feeling the tag line at the end of my post "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way"  might rile someone and debated throwing it out there. Hindsight: it detracts from everything else I have been trying to communicate.

Rob started the thread, alluding to the impression that Z is a less rewarding listen than the the other releases, and I concurred.  "Z" is interesting, pretty, hook laden, well-crafted, displays far ranging influences, obviously a labor of love for the band, and it is better than many other albums being released in this day and age. But as Rob said about the previous releases "Those songs just seem so much more meaningful".  And despite the weighty subject matter on Z,  I agree with him.

Now, this is where I think I have failed to communicate my views clearly.

zycartrobz stated:
-- All I am doing is challenging you to look at the big picture. That's all. I never said anyhting about MMJ being flawless or perfect or sacred, just challenging you to look at it differently, based on my own personal experiences--

I cannot help but sigh to myself when reading that.  My previous posts where about how I have listened to Z over and over in different contexts and it doesn't offer the same emotional rewards to me their other music does.  So, in searching for a reason why, I have done exactly what you are stating here-- challenge myself and others to consider the music in the greater context of all that came before and ask why some or many people might find it a lesser experience than their other music.

I've even posited explanations and other folks have as well, including:
1) It could be that life/relationships/expectations/emotional state/musical tastes have changed to where we don't relate to the new sounds or even the band, or
2) Maybe the music on Z isn't as compelling as the rest of their catalog. (somewhere long ago I was on record that for the first time on any of their releases that there were a couple of tunes on ISM that lost that great punch to the head/heart/loins as well)

I voted for #2 but may change my mind at the next quorum. I realize that music can be appreciated for many reasons, intellectually as well as emotionally.  Z can be admired for the sheer ambition on display.  But giving props for the ambition doesn't mean I have to accept that Z is an unqualified success for meeting those high ambitions.

I thought I was challenging people to think outside the Forum fan box and look at the big picture, not be afraid to criticize Z. Same as you wished.  We are just hearing and seeing things differently for whatever reason.

Finally, about the live shows. I just tried to point out that it did not appear to us that familiarity/un-familiarity completely explained what we witnessed.  I think there was more to it-- See #2 above.  I challenge you to consider it.

[ycartrob]

BigBang, you can love or hate Z, cool.

I was responding to your post where you gagued the quality of Z by the audiences reaction and I gave several reasons why that is to be expected from newer tunes or less familiar tunes.

I fucking cannot stand ZZ TOP's Sharp Dressed Man, would rather hear HEARD IT ON THE X, but if you were at a show, and watched the audience respond to both songs, you'd think Sharp Dressed Man was a more "compelling" song, using your logic.

Some people love HELP more than SGT PEPPER

Some people love BOY more than ACTHUNG BABY

Some people love ROCKS more than  PUMP

Some people love SAUCERFUL OF SECRETS more than WISH YOU WERE HERE

Some people love LET IT BE more then TIM

Some people love TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT more than HARVEST MOON

Some people love TRES HOMBRES more than
ELIMINATOR

Some people love HERE COME THE WARM JETS more than MY LIFE IN THE BUSH OF GHOSTS

Some people love KILL 'EM ALL more than METALLICA (black album)

Some people love LIKE A VIRGIN more then RAY OF LIGHT

Some people love FLY BY NIGHT more than SIGNALS

Some people love AT DAWN more than Z

has very little to do with a crowd's reaction at a show...

That's all I got.  :)

[tomEisenbraun]

i think Z is what it is to mebecause i turned so many of my friends on to it through wordless chorus. every time i would walk in my friend's dorm room he would bust out the beginning bass line on his little piano that he's got in there. then we would all bust out and try and harmonize the ooh's. that song is my first semester in college. i can't listen to that song and not think about Jared Black or that room or just screwin around on dorm on a friday night.  that whole album really.

and what a wonderful man frickin rocks. but if it doesn't rub you  that way...well that just like...your opinion...man

honestly, i think that song requires a certain musical background, namely wanky late 70's classic rock, to truly enjoy it. I take it as a joke, and loved it before i knew it was written to be over the top. honestly, there's so much energy in it. it's sing along material from the get-go (evenif you can't hit any of the notes) aw look at me. i'm ramblin again...

[thebigbang]

This response is not meant to agitate you.  I know we are quibbling over next to nothing.  I know you know that as well  ;D ;D ;D

But what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Exasperation with my inability to communicate this one little point compels me to type these words. I know I will likely regret it.

Here goes.  No Harm Intended.

Ok, really, here goes:

Then don't consider it might be something other than or in addition to greater familiarity with some songs that caused the reaction I mentioned.  Don't consider that it might be something intrinsic to the material itself.  Think one track ( familiarity/crowd favorites have to be the reasons).

Rounding up all the usual suspects (as mentioned in this thread), I think differently about it than you do.  I think there is more to it.  Bluntly stated, I think most of the songs on Z are not as good as many of the earlier releases.  I've been wrong about many things, and I might be about this.  If we could travel five or ten years into the future we'd have the test of time to help answer this.  Make a date to read the forum in 2013 and we'll open this thread up again and see where we are on the matter.

I hope we all can be there for that great debate and there are a dozen more Jacket releases to toss into the fray as well :) :) :)


I hope I used enough smileys :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-/ :-* :'(

[ycartrob]

BigBang writes: If we could travel five or ten years into the future we'd have the test of time to help answer this.

you mean, you haven't figured out time travel yet? poor soul...I have listened to the next 3 MMJ albums via my time machine; hang on!   ;)

Merry Christmas

[thebigbang]

you mean, you haven't figured out time travel yet? poor soul...I have listened to the next 3 MMJ albums via my time machine; hang on!   ;)

Merry Christmas

Which one of the next three is the most electrifying?

Yea, let's argue about which of the future albums is the best. Probably makes as much sense as going 'round in circles aout Z. ;D

[wellfleet]

the thing is that individual responses to music are so subjective. i think that people who tend to listen to music and enjoy it solely on an intellectual basis work at pitchfork. while sgt. pepper is *intellectually* more advanced lyrically and sonically, it doesn't engender the same emotional response as please please me. of course you can sing along to day in a life and when i'm sixty-four, but you will never convince me that people attach a bigger importance to those songs than to she loves you or i wanna hold your hand. i like please please me and hard day's night a million times more than i like let it be. and i ain't apologizing. this doesn't make me a musical idiot.
although familiarity and recognition do not equal proof of greatness, how "great" is a song or album that nobody but a handful of critics loved? the measure of *greatness* is the pure, unadulterated love. so although something can be good, or brilliant, it may not necessarily be great. and vice-versa. i think madonna's true blue is freakin' great, although it's not very musically accomplished. you can't put a number value on feeling.
i think maybe many people here may be afraid to incur the wrath of others by saying, hey, Z is really cool and all, but i'm just not feeling it in my gut. so i'll go second. the first time i heard it still moves, it was on my ipod as i was falling asleep. i fell into the sweetest, most delicious sleep and woke up loving the album. i would listen to it and cry. it really got to me.
when i first heard Z, i thought, oh, this album is sooooo cool, it's got so much swagger, it's so cock-rock at times without the stigma, but it didn't make me weepy with emotion. maybe it's just where i am emotionally. maybe not.
we can't all have the same reaction to the music. and the whys and hows are gonna vary for each of us.

[rob]

Z is just the latest step in a long musical journey. It may not be their most moving record (even tho I did actually cry to It Beats For You upon the first couple listens), but it's a vital, necessary move. They worked with new members, an outside producer, proved they could edit themselves, and destroyed the Southern Rock tag.  I'm sure they'll do tons of emotional material in the future.......can't wait for the next album........already.

[realdeal]

and again, I can reference the Nashville show. They played I THINK I AM GOING  TO HELL, off Tennessee Fire, their oldest released album, and most of the audience was not electric as they were when they played GIDEON.

Unless you're playing to like 50 people, it's ALWAYS the popular songs that get the rise out of the folks.

I am sure the same happened to Led Zeppelin on their Physical Graffitti tour; everyone went nuts when they played FOUR STICKS or HEARTBREAKER but sort of sat there when they rolled out the odd and unfamiliar KASHMIR.

I agree. Most of the folks there were not what you call real fans. I overheard one girl and she had not ever heard one single album.

[wellfleet]

"real" and "unreal" fans..................??? maybe someone who loves the band took this chick to the concert and now she's a convert. maybe you bought tickets on a whim after reading about them. enjoying "off the record" more than "dondante" doesn't make you low-brow....  ;)

[loper]

I don't know why so many people are beating themselves up on here because they don't find 'Z' as good as MMJ's  previous albums ???

It's not your fault!!!!!!!!!!

[bo dereks tits]

i dont really understand how "Anytime" isn't meaningful, in my opinion it is among the most moving and meaningful songs MMJ have ever written, I mean it's about self-expression and the realization that in order to move on at any point in your life ypu must express yourself, and for the band and jim the music  became that oulet. That's what Z is all about, going into the woods and finding yourself through art. It's also what At Dawn hinted at and It Still Moves was searching for. I think the line "things i could say to myself/i could never say to anyone else" is such a simple yet gorgeous line, it's among jim's best. "Anytime" is a classic song in the long line of classic MMJ songs about music and artistic expression.

well said.

[Angry Ewok]

Could it be that some of you, who really enjoyed the last two albums, find the lyrics less personal, emotional, and even sincere in Z  -  because this latest album has so much more going on instrumentally?

I noticed that, while I absolutely love Z, I find myself feeling the emotions of the less busy songs on their younger albums.

Just a thought.

The crowd and its reaction to songs - this is an interesting debate... In judging on whether or not the masses enjoy an album, I wouldn't really take crowd response for a grain of salt.

I'm sure now, having been to three shows, that alot of people come to their concerts just to see one or two songs... and could give a hoot in hell for the rest of the songs played that night. Meanwhile, you've got the chickens who gather around the stage to chat all night long.

I'm using my experience at Roxy as an example, where a good mix of New and Old songs were played. I was standing front and center at the stage - and enjoyed every bit of it... A month later, I listened to a recording of the show, and was absolutely appauled at the level of clucking going on in the crowd throughout the entire show. It was like a fucking social event. The clucking seemed even worse during the older songs - but I attribute that to the fact that alot of Z songs are much more busy.

[wellfleet]

the talking drives me absolutely batnuts! there were some kids in dallas, right up front, who kept chatting during the quiet songs and during david dondero's set. two of them answered their cell phone. it's just so disrespectful, not just to the band, but to those of us who paid good money to hear the band, not the inane banter of an SMU freshman. if i were a musician and saw someone be so rude, i would stop the show, point that person out and tell the whole audience why i stopped or ask security to escort that person out. people do tend to talk more during songs they aren't as familiar with. but when they started talking during "Golden" i almost lost it.

[Angry Ewok]

if i were a musician and saw someone be so rude, i would stop the show, point that person out and tell the whole audience why i stopped or ask security to escort that person out.

I'm pretty Axl Rose tried something like that...

Wait, no, nevermind. Axl Rose drop kicked some guy in his audience because he had a camera.

[wellfleet]

ryan adams stopped his set and jawed at some guy who kept shouting out sing requests. adams was like, dude, you know, we have a setlist. the guy wouldn't stop yammering so adams challenged him to come on stage and say it to his face. the guy got quiet in a hurry... people were getting upset at the disruption. no need to resort to violence, just out the obnoxious ones and the crowd will do the rest.

[ycartrob]

ryan adams stopped his set and jawed at some guy who kept shouting out sing requests. adams was like, dude, you know, we have a setlist. the guy wouldn't stop yammering so adams challenged him to come on stage and say it to his face. the guy got quiet in a hurry... people were getting upset at the disruption. no need to resort to violence, just out the obnoxious ones and the crowd will do the rest.

I saw Ryan Adams at The Ryman in Nashville. The major disruption was the drunk asshole on stage who insisted on rambling, reading poetry, looking for his wine bottle, playing 2 songs on a record (2) while posing like a rock star (2 entire songs; 1 by Minor Threat and 1 by Madonna), having the house lights turned up b/c some guy yelled SUMMER OF 69 about 69 times, paying the guy to leave, singing an entire song like the Cookie Monster. He lost about half the audience by the time the encore came around.

A nice 1 hour 45 minute set, with about 1 hour of music.

Train wreck.