MOF at Massey Hall, Toronto tonight (Monday, Nov2)

[overthetop]

Jaimoe,

I love the Toronto/Canadian Loyalty. I really really do. I have travelled the world and have worked all over the US and still love my Country the most. Especially the Maritimes where I am from.

That said; if there is one thing I love about the USA above all other Countries is that they really know how to have fun and hold event. Whether it be a local sporting event, concert festivals, film, whatever. They always do it big, and they know how to back/support their team/band; coming out in huge numbers.

GTA have over 5 million residence - A band like WSP should certainly attract more than 500 of us.

Still to recap - I do love Canada and am not bashing Toronto so much I just don't want to have to go to the US everytime I want to see my favorite bands. It's been really expensive over the years. I hate seeing empty seats at great shows in the City I live in.

[Jaimoe]

Hey overthetop, I know you aren't bashing T.O.

The thing is, do you honestly think WSP have a following in Canada? I think if you gathered ALL the Canadian WSP fans together and held a concert, you wouldn't sell out the 1800 capacity Kool Haus. They just don't have a following, and they certainly don't have an audience "across the pond" either.

The Tragically Hip should have been big in the States, but they draw flies, or Canadian blackflies, when they play shows in New York or L.A.

When the White Stripes (late '90s) and Police (mid '70s) first rolled into Toronto, they played to only a handful of people - the Police played The Horseshoe to a small gathering and the Stripes played the Rivoli, to a reported three people. The Stripes of course are HUGE in this city and the Police first broke into North America at that very same Horseshoe gig. Of course, the actual number of people at the Police gig has mysteriously grown to thousands, even though the 'Shoe only holds 600-700.

One last thing: in this expensive and fractured music landscape, it is hard for bands to sell-out venues. And with 5 million people in Toronto with well over 200 different ethnic groups, the demographics don't always work in bands' favour when they come into town. That's just the way it is.  

[overthetop]

To conclude the conversation:

1. Why don't WSP have a Canadian Following? Obviously a band with a big following in the South will not be motivated to come to Canada to play for 500 people. How do you get the word out when you don't get played on the radio.
2. I would love to see MMJ play Massey. That would be the best possible situation.
3. I'm just saying word of mouth is the only way bands get exposure when they aren't on the radio. So anything to get the word out is a good thing and increases our chances of Toronto staying on MMJ's list of 'must visit' cities.  

[Jaimoe]

I really don't think WSP are as good as you think they are; they don't really have a following in the northern US states or the west coast and their albums are modest sellers at best. And the States' population is 10 times the size of Canada's so of course they can draw crowds in select areas. At the same time, WSP have missed the boat. They didn't break out when they were younger and they certainly aren't going to hit the big time now. The only thing I liked about their most recent album were the jams; the rest was pretty dull.

You gotta keep in mind that jam as a genre is dead or at best, nearly dead. It was fun while it lasted, but indie is the new king of live music.

[ALady]

I really don't think WSP are as good as you think they are; they don't really have a following in the northern US states or the west coast and their albums are modest sellers at best. And the States' population is 10 times the size of Canada's so of course they can draw crowds in select areas. At the same time, WSP have missed the boat. They didn't break out when they were younger and they certainly aren't going to hit the big time now. The only thing I liked about their most recent album were the jams; the rest was pretty dull.

You gotta keep in mind that jam as a genre is dead or at best, nearly dead. It was fun while it lasted, but indie is the new king of live music.

I wouldn't say this is true at all.  WSP headlined two nights of the 10klf festival in northern Minnesota this year, and has headlined it multiple times in the past ('05 and '03, I believe).  They definitely have a following in the northern Midwest and regularly sell out two- and three-night stands here, in good sized theaters (2500 capacity in Milwaukee) and outdoor amphitheaters (8000 capacity in Chicago).  "Following Panic after college" is kind of an inside joke around these parts simply because it's so common.  

I would never say they're critically acclaimed or even highly regarded within the genre, but they certainly aren't lacking for fans in the region.

And just my two cents...but anyone who followed Phish or the Dead this year can tell you that the jam scene is FAR from dead.

[Jaimoe]

I really don't think WSP are as good as you think they are; they don't really have a following in the northern US states or the west coast and their albums are modest sellers at best. And the States' population is 10 times the size of Canada's so of course they can draw crowds in select areas. At the same time, WSP have missed the boat. They didn't break out when they were younger and they certainly aren't going to hit the big time now. The only thing I liked about their most recent album were the jams; the rest was pretty dull.

You gotta keep in mind that jam as a genre is dead or at best, nearly dead. It was fun while it lasted, but indie is the new king of live music.

I wouldn't say this is true at all.  WSP headlined two nights of the 10klf festival in northern Minnesota this year, and has headlined it multiple times in the past ('05 and '03, I believe).  They definitely have a following in the northern Midwest and regularly sell out two- and three-night stands here, in good sized theaters (2500 capacity in Milwaukee) and outdoor amphitheaters (8000 capacity in Chicago).  "Following Panic after college" is kind of an inside joke around these parts simply because it's so common.  

I would never say they're critically acclaimed or even highly regarded within the genre, but they certainly aren't lacking for fans in the region.

And just my two cents...but anyone who followed Phish or the Dead this year can tell you that the jam scene is FAR from dead.

Certainly Bonnaroo proves that the jam scene is still alive, but even its more recent success rides on more diverse lineups. Phish, Allman Brothers and the remaining Dead are top of the genre and of course they can still pack 'em in. Dylan is a defacto jam headliner. But really, the jam scene has been on the decline for many years, almost to the day when Phish called it quits. But second tier bands are slowly but surely calling it quits too, such as String Cheese Incident (I think it was Jambase or Jambands.com had a list of fairly well-known jam bands that have split up and it was well into double-digits).

Like I said, WSP do draw fairly well in select regions. I know they draw monster crowds in parts of the South. But as a whole, they certainly aren't widespread popular.

I used to be a big jam band fan, but the genre got tired and it became overrun with too many average bands that wrote below-average songs filled with too many pointless solos. Give me more great bands by the likes of Drive By Truckers and I'll jump back on the sinking boat.

[ALady]

I'm confused...did you just call DBT a jam band?

And I can only speak from my own experience, but I was surprised by the vitality of the scene that I saw this year.  The demographic is a little older and a little more financially stable, but they came out in droves this summer.

[Jaimoe]

I'm confused...did you just call DBT a jam band?

And I can only speak from my own experience, but I was surprised by the vitality of the scene that I saw this year.  The demographic is a little older and a little more financially stable, but they came out in droves this summer.

The big festivals are still successful that's for sure. The scene is getting older, which should be a sign to anyone that it's on the decline. Phish are middle agers, but where are the great newer bands? There aren't many and I know for a fact many bands don't want to be labelled a "jam band".

The thing with the jam scene is that folks like to adopt fringe bands such as DBT, Ween, Bela Fleck, Bruce Hornsby etc... Heck, even some hippies think the Flaming Lips are a jam band - I can see their fogged out logic though since they did play moe. down.

[ALady]

Okay, I understand a little better.  You make a good point about the dearth of young blood in the jam scene, though I'd argue there are a few bands on the verge (Portugal. The Man is the best example I can think of offhand).  As you note, there are a lot of bands that aren't "jam bands" per se, but are "jam-friendly"; I'd argue that perhaps that means that the scene isn't dying, but expanding to incorporate the indie side of things, just as the scene has embraced bluegrass and jazz in the past.

And to clarify - I don't think it's just the festival scene where jam bands are doing well.  The stand-alone Dead and Phish shows I saw this year were at BIG arenas and all sold out well in advance.  Admittedly most of my concert calendar is made up of smaller club shows rather than big stadium shows, but I can't recall the last time I had to fight so hard for tickets for an arena show.  There is definitely a demand to see these bands.

[overthetop]

Jam band isn't formally defined to the best of my knowledge.

I don't consider the Almans or the Dead as true 'Jam band'; They know how to get to the point. I think of them as more of the bridge between good improvisational rock and roll and extreme jazzy unstructured jamming.   Simply because there is improvisation and a lot of jamming doesn't mean that they should be lumped into the same category as Phish.

The Dead always knew how to get to the point and tell a good story (even if it is not a voice but a guitar telling the story. Dylan (who I have seen 13 times) and his band are always focused around one of Bob's well structured songs even though the band does improvise the story a little.

I don't consider MMJ a jam band at all. I love the structure of the songs. There is usually a build up, sub climax, climax, wind down... just like a good story. My favorite music is normally centered around a good story/story teller.

Phish are probably the only real 'Jam Band' by the extreme definition I truely love, and it's not their jamming I love... more their extremely talented way of blowing my mind while improvising. Less talented, mid tier jam bands did the jamming without the mind blowing parts that phish pull off so well and I never was a big fan.

my two cents, we all have an opinion.

[Jaimoe]

Phish and the Dead will always draw well. They have history and loyalty behind them. I'm compiling a list of the 20 Best Albums of the Decade, and Farmhouse makes the cut. The album marked the pinnacle of the modern jam scene, but an argument can be made that everything started to go downhill from there. Some Deadheads will tell you that it all started to go downhill after Jerry died. I'm a closet and card-carrying Peachhead and I think this is true to some extent.

I know that Ween resented being adopted by the jam scene. Hornsby had no choice since he played many shows in and with the Dead. Basically, if you play a jam or jam-friendly festival, a band will suddenly find their audience demographic changed.

Like almost every genre except for maybe blues, jam bands will make a comeback. But I can't tell when that will be since there's so little buzz regarding new bands. The North Mississippi Allstars almost made an impact, but then they started to suck after their first album. Now, the Black Crowes seemed to have crossed over to the jam scene for good.

[ALady]

Now, the Black Crowes seemed to have crossed over to the jam scene for good.

Yeah, it does seem that way, doesn't it?  

This has been an interesting discussion, gentlemen.   :)

[Jaimoe]

Jam band isn't formally defined to the best of my knowledge.

I don't consider the Almans or the Dead as true 'Jam band'; They know how to get to the point. I think of them as more of the bridge between good improvisational rock and roll and extreme jazzy unstructured jamming.   Simply because there is improvisation and a lot of jamming doesn't mean that they should be lumped into the same category as Phish.

The Allmans and Dead are the godfathers of jam and perhaps are/were the truest form of jam. They also defined the genre's parametres. As far as I can tell, the jam band genre began with Phish. It may end there with them as well.

It's very easy to list 30 bands that can be defined as a "jam band". Here are a few off the top of my head: Phish, moe., Gov't Mule, String Cheese Incident, Umphrey's McGee, Keller Williams etc...

The Mule are more of a heavy blues band, but Warren certainly knows where his bread is buttered.