New Orleans and Katrina

[TheLink]

by the way, FEMA is run by Bush's longtime friend who fixed his little National Gaurd crap last election.  He is not qualified and should resign after this mess.  I mean, when is enough enough?  As far as the local govt. being corrupt, yeah, that is normal.  Look at Rhode Island, but, if this had happened there, the cruise ships would have pulled right on in.   >:(

[EC]

Very good points, Link.

it is true that we cannot stop a "natural disaster", however, we are making them worse with our nonstop burning of fossil fuels thus raising the temp of the waters the hurrcanes go through before smashing these very unprotected coastal communities.

A little off-topic, but typical of the very ridiculous, wasteful ways.  There was a big air show here in Toronto over the weekend - like, four days I think.  Tonnes of planes flying around in v's and different configurations, ripping through the sky and making it sound like we lived in a war zone.

A good friend of mine is a pilot, and I remember him telling me how wasteful the air industry is - the amount of fuel it takes just to drive the plane from the landing strip to the port is in and of itself high, nevermind the fact that it's unnecessary, as they could use more fuel-efficient tow-trucks to bring them in.  Anyhow, if THAT'S a concern, then what the hell are we doing flying around loads and loads of planes just for the hell of it?  It seems to me that once we started to realize how badly we were abusing the fossil fuels, that we should've cut out such ridiculous unnecessary crap like air shows (or even monster truck shows) or anything at all that wastes our world away.

It just made me so fucking mad.  PLUS, why can't they fly those fucking planes to New Orleans and do something useful with them?

We're so fucking stupid.

[darkglow]

you know, i've been meaning to post in this thread, but it's really hard to find the words.

this is something that will forever change alot of things and i dont think we've even seen the tip of the iceberg as far as that goes.

one person that i'm seeing and hearing and reading about that really touched my heart is a gen. honore who is the commander of all the national guard troops in NOLA. he's the one who mayor nagin referred to as "some john wayne dude who got off the doggone chopper and started cussin' and got stuff done."

we need more people like this in every position of leadership.

i'm sick and tired of all this beurocracy(sp?) bullcrap and i am saddened to think that we finally started to do what we had to do only after a mayor and a radio show host broke down and cried on air, almost as sick it makes me when i hear george bush pausing between every 5 words because i know he is having the sentences read to him through that little speaker in his ear.

it was great and very sad at the same time to see chertoff (homeland security director) and brown (FEMA director) upstaged by a more passionate and qualified 3 star general in a press conference. it shows the true spirit of "MOST" american people and maybe finally we will fix the wrongs that are going on today.

[TheLink]

the 1 thing i don't agree with is that race is such a big factor.  it is class.  poor is poor is America and that just does not ever go well with a Republican agenda.  I am really sick of this waste of fuel, money, men, and time with our governemnt that polices the world and can't even get into one of it's own states until 5 days after a hurricane they knew was coming, actually was known as the #2 natural disaster for America on the FEMA list.  I just hope they can get those people who can be saved out and bury the others quickly and properly.  And Bush is a Jesus freak, well I do not see much Christinaity involved in any of this or many of his decisions.  Peace y'all.
 ;D

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

ya gotta admit, it's a bit monochromatic outside the superdome.  but is that happenstance, or is it a concerted effort to leave people there to die that are black?

it appears, to me at least, that the government sat on their fat hands for a few days, hoping the worst of it would go away.  and it didn't.  people died needless deaths because our esteemed leader could not, would not, or did not have the capacity to understand the depth of the problem to act.  he was on VACATION, and apparently couldn't be bothered to care about his own citizens who pay his fucking salary.  the leader of the country is where the buck stops.  apparently, this does not apply to ol W as he's already trying to shift blame to FEMA or anyone but his sorry ass.

i'm sorry, but he knew, and he did not act.  therefore, he needs to be impeached (not just for this but for other reasons) for failure to aid his own citizens.  we help other countries all day every day, and act quickly when needed.  the callous nature of these indecisive morons needs to be addressed while the iron is hot.  i don't buy this bullshit of "let's all pull together" and hold hands and pretend nobody fucked up here-plenty of high ranking officials and W fucked up and people died.  i can only imagine how fired I would be if infractions like this caused people to die at my work-someone needs to hang.

[TheLink]

i totally agree, but just like 911, let's let them get the shit started before we go blaming everyone and impeaching.  let them find homes, bury dead, and start to pick up.  then, let the wrath of Hell find its way to W and then maybe Jesus can save him again.  hey, let's not forget, we elected this idiot, not me, but the majority did.  now, everyone is pissed that our Pres is a total ahole and moron.  blame yourselves too Red States.  Blame people who drive hummers and burn gas like it is never going to run out.  Balme all the electricity we use for comfort.  These storms will get worse and how many more can the Gulf states take before we just decide to bury em.  it is our country, so let's do something about our own ways and change the way govt prioritizes shit.  this administration promised to keep us safe from everything, but they killed so many in the past 5 years.  it is disgusting.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

what, we can't have the discussion while the relief efforts are going on?  this president claims he can multitask;  obviously, he's busy worrying about the supreme court and whatnot.  he's not personally fixing the levee, or draining the water (if only he did do manual labor for a while, that might fix his dumbass) so the criticism is valid and fair.

people DIED because of the slow moving, grunt-like ineptitude of the government.  and he needs to have his feet held to the fire for it.

[EC]

Totally, but I think that what Link means is let's get the people safe instead of corking up the works by talking about stuff we could talk about afterwards.  If Bush is impeached before everybody's well and safe, it might slow things down...

And then we'll "hunt him down" and make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

(I say "we", but I guess I have to be a supporting outside in this situation.  Sometimes I wish Canadians could vote in US elections.)

[MMJ_fanatic]

I did what I could last Friday and gave money at the Hurricane Relief link on the Red Cross site.  Hopefully it helps/gets to someone who needs it.

[ratsprayer]

i like your attitude john, thats about the exact way i feel here.  theres all this talk that W would have been blamed no matter what, but bullshit to that.  you make an effort, and people will notice.  im still fucking gobsmacked at all the different ways im seeing people help.  the good ones are shining through, and its about the only comfort im getting from this tragedy.  rock on, i think the awesomeness of the people on this board is even more obvious now, even though some of us are pissed the fuck off now.    ;D

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

coolio.  let's minimize the photo ops and maximize the healing.

[TheLink]

i think it is safe to say the country WAs pissed off even before this.  Like EC said, it won't help anything to go headhunting now while they still need much relief.  There will be plenty of blame to go around and obvoiusly a lot should be on FEMA and Pres. Bush.  the thing that really disturbs me is that thye KNEW how bad it would be and NOBODY, NO, LA, or FEMA had a plan.  I just don't think it shopuld be truned into race issue as there are enviornmental, engineering, and many government issues to be addressed after some of the cleaning is done.  Peace ya'll.  i can't say anymore.

[aMillionDreams]

I was afraid that this thread would turn into a collection of pot shots at President Bush, and it has.  That's undertandable because at some point he becomes responsible for getting our country through this.  Plus, W is a really easy target.  However, there are many others to point fingers at in Louisiana and New Orleans.  For example, there would have been a lot less death if the levee was repair and that wasn't Bush's fault.

The other point I want to make is that I think it is sad to hear those who obviously have a history of hating W using this tragedy to further their own agendas.  W gets ciritcized for having no tact, but I think that these attacks are opportunistic and pathetic.  I realize he could have done more, but he could not have prevented all the death and destruction that occured in the South.

And the dumbass argument of, "if it was white people Bush would have done something about it" has got to stop!  Do you think that there were no rich white people in New Orleans?  There were, but Bush didn't need to save them.  They saved themselves, by their own means and unlike the poor people, they didn't need the federal government to hold their hands while they saved themselves!    And it has nothing to do with color, as thelink pointed out, the FACT is thst the vast msjority of poor people in this country are black or hispanic. I can understand how some may have a problem with that fact but I don't understand how you can put that on Bush.  It's unfair to Bush and it takes attention away from those who really could have changed things down there.

Sorry again for the long post, I was hoping we wouldn't have to go down this road.

[havibulin]

you know what aMillionDreams...I hate Bush more than anything else ...but everything you said is exactly right.  

[EC]

I was afraid that this thread would turn into a collection of pot shots at President Bush, and it has.  That's undertandable because at some point he becomes responsible for getting our country through this.  Plus, W is a really easy target.  However, there are many others to point fingers at in Louisiana and New Orleans.  For example, there would have been a lot less death if the levee was repair and that wasn't Bush's fault.

1.  It's easy to target Bush because he makes it easy.  
2.  I might be wrong, but I thought that Bush was the one who vetoed the initial call for action to repair the levee?  I thought I read that somewhere.

The other point I want to make is that I think it is sad to hear those who obviously have a history of hating W using this tragedy to further their own agendas.  W gets ciritcized for having no tact, but I think that these attacks are opportunistic and pathetic.  I realize he could have done more, but he could not have prevented all the death and destruction that occured in the South.

And I think it's unfair of you to assume that people are just using this as a platform to show their Bush hate.  He could have done more?  Hell yeah!  He could have done SOMETHING.  Waaaaay earlier than he did.

And the dumbass argument of, "if it was white people Bush would have done something about it" has got to stop!  Do you think that there were no rich white people in New Orleans?  There were, but Bush didn't need to save them.  They saved themselves, by their own means and unlike the poor people, they didn't need the federal government to hold their hands while they saved themselves!

Holy. crap.  How in the hell were they supposed to SAVE themselves?  They have no money, aMillionDreams!  They don't have cars, they don't have a means to get out.  Holding their hands?!

And it has nothing to do with color, as thelink pointed out, the FACT is thst the vast msjority of poor people in this country are black or hispanic. I can understand how some may have a problem with that fact but I don't understand how you can put that on Bush.  It's unfair to Bush and it takes attention away from those who really could have changed things down there.

I'm sorry that you feel as though people are unfair to Bush.  Perhaps if the guy had cut his vacation a little short, we wouldn't feel that way.  Perhaps if he'd acted sooner and not waited so long, we wouldn't feel that way.

That man is the President of your country.  If you don't like the fact that the responsibility of the safety of your people rests in his hands, then that's too bad.

I don't want to start a big fight with you, and I know that we're all entitled to our opinions, and I know I'm maybe getting more personal here than I normally do, but I'm just surprised.  Obviously Bush isn't the only person to blame, and obviously a lot of people could and should have done a lot more.  But, I mean, ultimately, Bush is in charge, right?

[ratsprayer]

lets agree to disagre, aMillionDreams.  afterall, remember were both horrible people who supported the leak of Z and helped each other!   ;D

[ratsprayer]

in the same breath, im going to high-five EC!  not that its a really celebratory thing, so maybe we get back to the comradery of agreeing this is a tragedy and doing wot we can to help.  

[aMillionDreams]

we can just agree to disagree on this, the result would be the same.   Let me just say that I am not attempting to defend Bush or I would obviously lose the argument.  I hate Bush too, I just think it is simple-minded to look at this tragedy and simply say, wow, Bush really fucked up.  

I think EC is missing the point of my post so I will simply invite her to read it again, I've already said what I wanted to say.

[ratsprayer]

i was a manager for a hotel, therefore everything fell on me if shit happened.  was it all completely my fault?  not at all, but thats the logic of chain of command.  

you cant argue bush and congress control the budgets and decided to slash funding for flood control.  the mayor of new orleans mentioned in early 2004 it would be a problem with a category 4 or 5 storm hitting.  there is no difference between democrats and republicans, so its a simple governmental failure.  our congress doesnt listen to americans though, but some other country....lets not go there though.

[EC]

we can just agree to disagree on this, the result would be the same.   Let me just say that I am not attempting to defend Bush or I would obviously lose the argument.  I hate Bush too, I just think it is simple-minded to look at this tragedy and simply say, wow, Bush really fucked up.  

I think EC is missing the point of my post so I will simply invite her to read it again, I've already said what I wanted to say.

I did read your post again aMD, and it still struck the same chords that it did the first time.  However, I do agree that it's stupid to put all of the blame on Bush, of course.  And I do agree that, with all things, jumping all over somebody's mistake to further your own agenda, generally is bad practise.

But I will say that I don't think this is the case, here.

Anyhow, I guess it's really easy for us to sit around at our computers and talk about what a tragedy it is.   :-/  What I mean by that is it's easy to discuss something, and waaay more difficult to have been involved in it.  I mean, there may be another levee somewhere that needs fixing, but hasn't been fixed, but that will go unnoticed because we don't care about it until it breaks...  It's easy to throw around blame, fer sure.  But in this case, I have to say...