http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/21/AR2005112101384_pf.html
Witness Clears Man Executed In Texas for 1985 Slaying
Associated Press
Tuesday, November 22, 2005; A02
HOUSTON -- A decade after Ruben Cantu was executed for capital murder, the only witness to the crime is recanting and his co-defendant says Cantu, then 17, was not even with him that night.
The victim was shot nine times with a rifle during an attempted robbery before the gunman shot the only witness.
That witness, Juan Moreno, told the Houston Chronicle for its Sunday editions that Cantu was not the killer. Moreno said he identified him at the 1985 trial because he felt pressured and feared authorities.
Cantu, who had maintained his innocence, was executed on Aug. 24, 1993, at age 26. "Texas murdered an innocent person," co-defendant David Garza said.
Sam D. Millsap Jr., the district attorney who handled the case, said he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from a witness who identified a suspect only after police showed him a photo three times.
© 2005 The Washington Post Company
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I'd rather pay for 100,000 people to sit in jail for a milliion years than to send one innocent person to death. But hey! That's just me.
I agree. I think the death penalty is wrong on about a billion levels.
One of which is the complete fucking hypocrisy of it all in relation to other death issues. ie euthanasia and the like.
The curious thing about the death penalty is that it's not really a deterrent. Long incarceration is a deterrent, but we still have horrendous crimes.
However, crime as a whole, esp. violent crime, has been steadily going down for a while now. Too bad the media doesn't hype that instead of the latest shooting.
I once ate a Christmas dinner with Kentucky's death row inmates, back in the day. What a trip that was. Eddyville's prison is one scary ass place, that's fer sure.
Actually, no punishment is a deterrent. Career criminals are not scared to go to prison. As a matter of fact, many career criminals wear their prison sentence like a badge of honor.
QuoteActually, no punishment is a deterrent. Career criminals are not scared to go to prison. As a matter of fact, many career criminals wear their prison sentence like a badge of honor.
Well, what percentage of people are "career criminals"? I'd venture a bet that more than 50% of our jails are filled with people who are nonviolent, first time drug offenders.
your right. we shouldn't punish anyone for anything.
I don't support the death penatly either but that argument is a slippery slope. I just think it gives government too much power. And the government's abuse of power in matters of life and death is nearly unforgivable.
I didn't say that, at all.
Quote
Well, what percentage of people are "career criminals"? I'd venture a bet that more than 50% of our jails are filled with people who are nonviolent, first time drug offenders.
You're jumping into a seperate debate. Should drugs be decriminalized or even legalized?
But let me rephrase then, most people who are willing to commit a crime are not scared to go to prison. Most people who are willing to commit a crime think about getting caught and then tend to commit the crime anyway.
oh, my bad.
Quoteyour right. we shouldn't punish anyone for anything.
I don't support the death penatly either but that argument is a slippery slope. I just think it gives government too much power. And the government's abuse of power in matters of life and death is nearly unforgivable.
People who are a threat to society should be seperated from society. Prison is that seperation. But should the State sanction legalized murder? I don't believe so.
I'd love to play devil's advocate in this thread, but I'm afraid I have neither the time or energy for that today. Party on, party people.
QuoteI'd love to play devil's advocate in this thread, but I'm afraid I have neither the time or energy for that today. Party on, party people.
The beauty of a message board is you can always come back to it. Open the can...
I'm just looking at the issue of crime from an enforcement standpoint, not necessarily a legal standpoint. If we tell our cops to lock up people everytime they smell reefer, they aren't patrolling looking for the real bad guys. Our frenzied approach to law enforcement, in regards to "street crime", has definitely cleaned things up, that's for sure..but at what cost?
1. It is arbitrarily sought by the State. (FYI: Media coverage and/or the wealth/notoriety of the victims prevent the prosecution from seeking a plea deal. If two white kids from the suburbs are shot in Downtown by somebody of the opposite race, do you really think a plea bargain is an option? If you reverse the victim and the alleged criminal, I venture to believe that a plea would be obtain.)
Another reason:
2. The only individuals qualified to sit on a death penalty case as jurors have to be in favor of the death penalty. All those opposed are excluded from the jury pool. Do you really think the defendant is given a "jury of his peers" when the only individuals eligible to determine his/her fate are pro-death. Additionally, people that are pro-death are far more likely to find in favor of the State/Commonwealth in the guilt/innocent phase.
*I may be biased because I am public defender.
let's just say I'm against the death penalty, for sure...
A cop got shot here (U.K.) at the weekend and now the radio stations are having this same debate, saying our cops should now be armed and that we should have the death penalty for anyone who murders a cop! I feel for the cops family don't get me wrong (She was a mother of five)
but if they'd shot my Mum I don't think the manhunt would be on the same scale.
If humans were infallible, I would be a bit more easily swayed on this issue. But humans make mistakes all the time. How is it that so many of us are so capable of writing off innocent people who are killed by the state? Is it so that we feel comforted knowing that if somebody killed one of OUR loved ones that we could watch who we presume to be that killer die? What if the wrong person was fingered? It happens all the time. What if my father was accused of murdering somebody and was sentenced to death and I knew he was innocent?
I'm against Death Penalty because killing is wrong. And if there is death penalties then the folks that decides this is murderer too.
I've posted my support for these guys a couple of times but they need all the help they can get.
The story of the West Memphis Three is simply horrifying! Gross mis-justice with 3 boys on death row for a crime I, and a lot of other people, believe they didn't commit. All the Pearl Jam fans should know about this one - Eddie is a big supporter.
Check out this movie:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AYEIY0/103-5660301-1079012?v=glance&n=130&s=dvd&v=glance
And give their website a hit:
http://www.wm3.org/splash.php
I am strongly against the death penalty.
this is such a tough topic. it is obvoiusly very hipocritical to be for the death penalty and call yourself a christian. i don't think any human should kill. and, how the hell do the people who put people to death sleep at night. yikes. however, i would want a jury to seriously consider my threat to society if i were to kill someone who say raped and murdered my child. the problem is that people don't think enough. simple solutions for simple people.
life sentence is fine, but prisons have become way too nice. >:(
Do you know that for a fact? Have you spent time in one?
That's a serious question - I'm not being rude or sarcastic.
I can't imagine prison being very nice at all...
well, i never said it was nice. i said it was too nice for violent criminals. getting a college education, having cable tv, and other perks just seem like the problem to me. most conservatives are for the death penalty so we do not have to support these people. so, they are choosing to terminate someone's life to save money. it seems a bit silly to me. do you think prisons are tough enough based on what you know about them?
i am against killing, thus against the death penalty. i do not want society making that kind of choice for me. i don't want them tellingme who can have an abortion and who cannot either.
Miss Shores I highly recommend you read this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743483456/104-2202570-7481551?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance
They made a tv movie too under a different title, I think.
QuoteMiss Shores I highly recommend you read this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743483456/104-2202570-7481551?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance
They made a tv movie too under a different title, I think.
It's on my short list. THANK YOU. Always searching for a great book.
Prison is not too nice. Prison is a place where you're always watching your back. It sounds nice... three square meals a day, gym, television, library, education. But everything that comes along with that... beatings, rape, emotional abuse, never being able to relax, being away from every single person you love for years, certainly makes those minor luxuries much less enjoyable.
Having the death penalty is MORE EXPENSIVE than a life sentence. Not to mention, if a person is mistakenly convicted, there is no turning back from killing them. We're one of an extremely small number of countries that still uses the death penalty. Our "civilized society" is not so civilized when it comes to dealing with crime.
Also, part of the reason there are things like opportunities to get an education is so that when people get out of prison, they have some skills to use. If they are no better a person when they get out than when they were put in, what do you think they're going to do differently??
that sounds great! let's give all violent criminals, that have no chance of being rehabilitated a college education. does that make any sense? sure, prison isn't the fuckin Ritz Carlton, but it shouldn't be for people who rape and murder. hey, I am a pretty liberal guy, but let's have some common sense. if we make prison reflect why you were sent there in the first place, maybe we don't stop violent crime, but we sure do show some better principles.
Not everyone in prison is a rapist or a murderer. There are people sent to pretty bad prisons for a whole lot less. And how do we know if people can or cannot be rehabilitated? Is every prisoner doomed to a life of crime? Personally, I'd say yank out the televisions, give prisoners newspapers if they really want to know what's happening in the world, but keep the education. I'd rather know my tax dollars are going to helping someone learn than being used to appeal a death sentence.
I don't think having common sense has anything to do with whether or not I agree with educating prisoners. Education empowers people. And maybe, just maybe, if a prisoner is empowered by learning he will try harder to make an honest living when he gets back into the real world. And don't you think that prisoners have to earn the privilege to take classes? It's not like some violent person who keeps acting out on other prisoners just magically gets to hang out at the gym and read books all day.
Oh, and more than half the time, these people are looking to get a GED. Not a college education.
we are discussing the death penalty compared to a life sentence. my argument is that if prisons were tougher on the violent criminals, convicted of their crimes, often times more than once, people would not be so for the death penalty. being completely against it, i am trting to fins a good reason to convince these types of people, who strongly believe in their principles, that killing is wrong and that the punishment is strong enough. to me, that is common sense as we cannot be complete bleeding hearts all the time even though we want to be. in such a diverse society of morals and ideals, we must try and find common ground to make things as right as they possibly can be. peace. ;)
i say...send them to the hate furnace
Quotewe are discussing the death penalty compared to a life sentence. my argument is that if prisons were tougher on the violent criminals, convicted of their crimes, often times more than once, people would not be so for the death penalty. being completely against it, i am trting to fins a good reason to convince these types of people, who strongly believe in their principles, that killing is wrong and that the punishment is strong enough. to me, that is common sense as we cannot be complete bleeding hearts all the time even though we want to be. in such a diverse society of morals and ideals, we must try and find common ground to make things as right as they possibly can be. peace. ;)
And my argument is that if the violent criminal who would normally be sentenced to death is too violent for an education, he will not earn the privilege to obtain that education in prison. Prison is no cake walk and anyone that thinks it is should spend a week there. But to think making the prison a dump will make anything better, inside or outside the prison, is in my very humble opinion, a bit foolish. We've tried having prisons that were hell holes. It did nothing. Why not work towards a more positive prisoner?? At the very least, it makes the lives of the guards who must endure these people a bit less difficult if the prisoners are treated less like caged animals and more like human beings that made mistakes. Because I believe most (not all) criminals are products of their environment. Is that an excuse for being violent? No. But change their environment to one that has the potential, if you earn the privilege to enjoy it with good behavior, and see what happens.
I agree. Ritz-Carlton is the last thing these people deserve. But I think "the system" is trying to figure out just where the balance between punishment and opportunity for change lies.
i agree with you. but, maybe we should spend more money on changing the enviornment so they do not become criminals instead of mkaing their lives better and positive in prison after it is too late. i don't know, i am just glad i am so normal! peace. ;D
Quotei agree with you. but, maybe we should spend more money on changing the enviornment so they do not become criminals instead of mkaing their lives better and positive in prison after it is too late. i don't know, i am just glad i am so normal! peace. ;D
Well, one would think that goes without saying but you're right.
I'm glad you're normal too.
What about criminals that kills kids?.....Obviously, this is very opinionated topic and we have all different views. I am one that thinks it should cases by case. If a criminal kills kids I am for it. And what about guys like Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, The Green River Killer....these guys killed multiple people and we should spare their life. Think of all the families they destroyed. What is your basis for sparing these guys exactly what they did to these people that did not do a thing except getting their life and family taking away from them.
D.
Have you ever heard of confessing to something you didn't do? I'd love to do lots of things to these monsters. You make it seem as though people who are against the death penalty are disagreeing with the fact that these people are disgusting wastes of life. As though what they did was acceptable somehow because I'd rather they rot in jail than be given a merciful injection. That's just not so. My argument is that if the death penalty is allowed, not only are the evil ones put to death, but so are the falsely accused. What about THOSE families? The ones whos fathers are put to death for something they didn't even do and even worse, the state SANCTIONED it!
Jeffrey Dahlmer was beaten to death by the other prisoners. Is that poetic justice? Can the families sleep better now knowing he "got what he deserved"? At the end of the day, Jeffrey Dahlmer drugged, killed and ate their loved ones and nothing will change that. Not even his death.
There is no doubt there are are circumstances where people are executed that should not be....no doubt. Again, that is why is needs to be case by case. I do hear what you saying. What is your opinion about people that kill kids? The Green River killed over thirty people and you think his life should be saved. I don't. Do you think that he should be kept alive baesd on what he did and if so why? He admitted to killing all these people. In terms of will families may think that he got what he deserved, there in way to know that. Maybe the do and maybe they don't. Of course I have heard of people confessing to crimes they didn't commit and that is a horrbile thing and I wish that that would never happen. And yes, that is a bad thing when those families lose someone that is innocent. One more time, case by case. Clearly, there is no easy answer. And the term rotting in jail, I think that they would rather rot in jail then die. They get to eat, sleep, communicate, have friends, read, internet, etc. The people that they killed don't.
D.
I'm not saying any murder's life should be spared. As I mentioned earlier, if humans were infallible, I'd be all for the death penalty. The problem is, the "case by case" basis is done in court. A jury of one's peers decides if a person should be convicted and sentenced to death. It doesn't always pan out the way it should (which is a subjective notion) because people's bias, prejudice, and ignorance can cloud what is supposed to be clear thinking. My belief is that I would rather an innocent life be spared and allow the evil to die naturally than a milliion guilty lives be taken with the hopes that we get it right every time. If you read the article that prompted this thread, you'll see that there are innocent people sitting on death row as we speak. Somebody at one time was certain that person was enough of a monster to sentence them to die. Beyond a shadow of a doubt... well. Sort of.
I don't think anyone should die, ever.
it certainly is hard to tell someone that loses a child to a horrible murder that the person supposedly responsible has a right to live. but, i think that they do. i am not against the death penalty because of the innocent people on death row, i feel sorry for innocent people in prison as well. to me, killing is wrong, unless it is obvious self defense. and even then, i would have trouble with it if i had to kill to stay alive. even in war it is hard to justify, but most would argue it is self defense. that is another tough one to tackle. iraq, self defense? yikes, that is what we were told at least. good luck figuring it out folks. ;)
No way to figure it out....No doubt about it. I guess I just understand how't people that kill to kill like the one's I mentioned desreve to live. Nothing is worse than people that are innocent and get put to death. That is wrong....However, those people that do it in a way and place for no bleeping resaon other than doing for the high of doing it should go to hell hell and suffer the consequences of their actions. I wish it was a perfect system but it never will be and perhaps that is wrose part of it all.
D.