6 years and no one has bothered to coach him on that.
:-/
i'm guessing you're talking about your fabulous el presidente?
surely someone could sit him down & EXPLAIN? using small words of course ;D
i'm sure if i had to speak for an hour straight i'd probably screw up a few times too.
he mispronounces it on purpose because it endears him to some of the idiots who vote for him. He's a lot smarter than people think, it's the American public that is dumb.
THIS guy is the leader of the free world? Wow. Just....wow.
Was he on tv last night or something? Was it one of those state of the unions?
QuoteWas he on tv last night or something? Was it one of those state of the unions?
So they tell me. I wouldn't know, he'd have to have Jesus Christ himself standing beside him for me to listen.
Quote
So they tell me. I wouldn't know, he'd have to have Jesus Christ himself standing beside him for me to listen.
heh. I'd probably watch that, too. ;)
Oh man. What're we gonna do about all the crazy shit in the world, hey? I go back and forth from caring too much, to saying fuck it to everything and staying tight in a little bubble.
I go back and forth between the same two things. Revolution, or mind numbing to keep myself from giving a shit.
I don't have any answers, except for the fact I'm old enough to run for Prez. Somehow, I don't see myself as the Prez though... ;)
QuoteDon't do the Conaway.
Well, you'd have to get a publicist for starters. ;)
Now I'm trying to think of a dance move called The Conaway. I think maybe it's just a massive, continuing head bang. The kind that makes you feel like you have the flu the next day because your neck hurts so much. :)
QuoteWas he on tv last night or something? Was it one of those state of the unions?
PBS had a special on George Clinton's revolution and the evolution of Parliament and Funkadelic.
Much more interesting and relevant.
Quote
Well, you'd have to get a publicist for starters. ;)
Now I'm trying to think of a dance move called The Conaway. I think maybe it's just a massive, continuing head bang. The kind that makes you feel like you have the flu the next day because your neck hurts so much. :)
Actually, I'd start with an Exploratory Committee to find out if I have enough support to warrant a campaign, then I'd make a Fundraising Committee to start raising money.
Then I'd hire you as my publicist. ;)
Some quotes from W's State of the Union:
"Our third goal is to promote energy independence for our country, while dramatically improving the environment."
"Tonight I'm proposing $1.2 billion in research funding so that America can lead the world in developing clean, hydrogen-powered automobiles."
"With a new national commitment, our scientists and engineers will overcome obstacles to taking these cars from laboratory to showroom, so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen, and pollution-free."
"Join me in this important innovation to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy".
Those are some very interesting statements.
If this actually would happen (I fear it won't), history might even judge positively on this president.
What's your opinion? Is he serious about his concern for the environment or is he just an opportunist ? As you might know, he didn't want to sign the kyoto treaty...
What's your opinion?
Quotei'm sure if i had to speak for an hour straight i'd probably screw up a few times too.
Yeah, but he NEVER pronounces this word correctly. :)
I have a shirt that says, "OK, I give up. It's Nucular".
It's one of my favorites.
Easy-his speech writers dreamt up that load of malarkey to appeal to the middle of the roaders who aren't happy with the war, but support him nonetheless. If he weren't from an oil rich family, I might be inclined to believe that, but just like everyone else, he'll follow the money.
It's no accident Toyota is the biggest auto maker in our country right now, and they are making huge inroads with their hybrid vehicles. Eventually, hydrogen fuelled cars will probably be the standard, but not before another generation or two of gas powered vehicles as they still make money for the carmakers.
Of course our country is addicted to oil. If we had made the slightest adjustments back in the 70's, as in following the CAFE standards for car manufacturing, we wouldn't be in this boat.
He could care less about the environment. It gets in the way of cattle ranchers and oil drilling, so it has to go, right?
I'll believe any of this when I see proof of it. Until then, it's just another politician spouting off bullshit.
Quote Eventually, hydrogen fuelled cars will probably be the standard, but not before another generation or two of gas powered vehicles as they still make money for the carmakers.
He could care less about the environment. It gets in the way of cattle ranchers and oil drilling, so it has to go, right?
I'll believe any of this when I see proof of it. Until then, it's just another politician spouting off bullshit.
I'm sorry to say I follow you completely :-/
My only hope is that the uncontrollable fires and winds you recently had overthere might convince him of the urgency of the situation.
Here in Belgium, we are asked to postpone outside efforts because the air is to polluted. Imagine, childred are being asked not to play outside and I can't go for a run if I don't want to pollute myself.
This situation will remain the same for at least 2 more days
It might be too late within 2 generations...
why did cindy sheehan get arrested before the speech began just for wearing an anti-war shirt?
what do the media and those in charge have to fear if this woman isnt sparking a movement and getting people to pay attention? if she really is a crackpot, where the fuck is the harm?
Capitol Police Sgt. Kimberly Schneider said police warned her that such displays were not allowed in the House chamber, but Sheehan did not respond.
That's a crock of shit. So, would it be OK for her stand outside and wear it? What's the fucking difference?
You guys really think the Bush people are going to let Cindy Sheehan sit at the address wearing a shirt that protests the war?
This shouldn't be a suprise at all.
QuoteYou guys really think the Bush people are going to let Cindy Sheehan sit at the address wearing a shirt that protests the war?
This shouldn't be a suprise at all.
its not a surprise, the question is why. so because its not a surprise, is this type of behaviour ok and acceptable in this country? just because things are what we expect doesnt make them right.
is this upcoming war in iran ok because i knew it was going to happen last october? fuck no. fuck that.
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its not a surprise, the question is why. so because its not a surprise, is this type of behaviour ok and acceptable in this country? just because things are what we expect doesnt make them right.
is this upcoming war in iran ok because i knew it was going to happen last october? fuck no. fuck that.
I didn't say I thought it was right.
So if it's not acceptable, why did it happen? Why do we, as a nation and people, continue to accept the terrbile things that are happening in our name? Why will we accept going into Iran? What will it take for us to react?
These are the questions I struggle with b/c I know I am doing very little about these issues that "bother" me and I know I am one of millions.
What will it take to shake us from this slumber?
TRULY. TRULY WE HAVE BECOME. HATED AND FEARED FOR SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT.
LISTEN. LISTEN. MOST OF US BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG.
YOU ANIMAL. COME ON. WHAT DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF?
ah, but united, we are millions strong and can make a difference. it's simple, really.
unfortunately, no one can decide on ONE universal truth to rally around that's more important than anything else. that's why they have the power and the money, because they decided on one goal and stuck with it. our side is too busy with fighting about what's the most important nit wit cause du jour to really come together and make a difference.
if we could pick one angle and stick with it, there would be no stopping us. we have the numbers.
Quoteah, but united, we are millions strong and can make a difference. it's simple, really.
unfortunately, no one can decide on ONE universal truth to rally around that's more important than anything else. that's why they have the power and the money, because they decided on one goal and stuck with it. our side is too busy with fighting about what's the most important nit wit cause du jour to really come together and make a difference.
if we could pick one angle and stick with it, there would be no stopping us. we have the numbers.
that's so very true in every way. look at tracy and me, we have a hard time agreeing on anything, but i know we're on the same side.
my one common goal is to live in a non-fascist country where the will of the common people is put above the will of corporations. it's broad and fantastical, but no one can argue people and the world itself would be better off if things were that way.
ah, therein lies the rub.
it USED to be that the corporations, while still greedy and determined to make as much money as possible, were held in check by a little thing called REGULATIONS, UNIONS, and public perceptions that prevented them from conglomerating together to become the monsters they are today.
As soon as it became socially acceptable to plunder pensions, go bankrupt to avoid paying wages, and financially feasilbe to buy off the government to rid themselves of those pesky regulations, that's when the real trouble started. (circa 1981) We're in this boat because the referee left the game, and the megacorps are now in charge of everything.
Quoteah, therein lies the rub.
it USED to be that the corporations, while still greedy and determined to make as much money as possible, were held in check by a little thing called REGULATIONS, UNIONS, and public perceptions that prevented them from conglomerating together to become the monsters they are today.
As soon as it became socially acceptable to plunder pensions, go bankrupt to avoid paying wages, and financially feasilbe to buy off the government to rid themselves of those pesky regulations, that's when the real trouble started. (circa 1981) We're in this boat because the referee left the game, and the megacorps are now in charge of everything.
And the problem with THAT is that corporations are not people. They're not even several people. They're nobody. They're an entity unto themselves, not unlike robots. And because there isn't a human being in charge, they aren't responsible for human beings. This is what is so fucked up. Human beings, individually, do not, for the most part, do things that are detrimental to other human beings. (And please go along with me on this, I'm talking about the greatest percentage, not the few people who are insane who do bad things).
Okay, come along with me on this ride that started in my head last night. I'm on myspace. I like myspace. I've broadened my knowledge of musicians, I've got gigs, it's good. It's all working. I can see what people are doing via bulletins, and comments, and you can leave messages for people when you like their music, and everybody's on the same level.
And I get these friend requests from people who have 15, 000 friends. NOT bands, individual people. My policy on the music site has been to let anybody be my friend who wants to be. And then things start getting fucked. I have 14 fucking bulletins from this one girl who is talking about "add this guy, he's a whore", or "get on this whore train", where basically people are just trying to get as many friends as possible.
Why? That's the first point. What in the world could possibly make you feel really wonderful about having 15, 000 "friends"? Does that make your life better somehow? Is it worth it to be on the computer building your numbers, as opposed to learning something, or checking something cool out?
So now my bulletins are fucked up, because there's pages of them everyday, and it's so frustrating to find the people that I actually want to see. Same with the dinks who put all that weird sparkly shit all over their page. You go to check them out and it takes 5 fucking minutes to open, plus you can't do anything in the meantime because your computer's frozen, and there's like four videos and a couple of songs playing ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
This is not a rant about myspace. I do really dig it.
BUT, here's where this ties in. It's like greed. Greed fucks things up. We are so aware of what happens when things get too big. How many times do you have to call your phone company before the issue is resolved? How many cheques get lost in the mail, and how frustrating is it to try and track that shit down? You call a company and you barely speak to a human being anymore, which is frustrating when you have a question that you don't know if you should be pressing one or five or six for.
We KNOW better. We're not retarded. We see what happens. We know we shouldn't buy stupid hummers. We know we shouldn't eat too much sugar. We know we need to chill out on oil. We know we spend money in ridiculous fashions when we don't need to. We KNOW better, what is wrong with us? We're so obsessed with consumption and with more more more. Why are we like that?
Who feels better when you get to be away from everything for a week? I do. Hangin' out at a farm, going for long walks, taking half an hour to pat the dog because it's nice to do that and your head isn't buzzing and reeling from all of the regular stuff. We have way too much going on, and we need to realize that, really really realize that, and chill out.
And it's fucking hard. I had this talk with my Uncle a while back, and we were talking about what would actually need to happen in order to make the world back on track. And he said, and he was just being honest, "I know that we don't need two SUV's. But I honestly don't know if I'm willing to give one of them up, because it will make my life harder."
I think the world needs a big glass of rescue remedy and some breathing and stretching. And we have to really understand why we're making the decisions we are. If the US (and Canada, and everyone else) stopped using so much oil, oil wouldn't be so expensive and the oil people wouldn't be so powerful. Just shit like that. I think we just need to use our conscious minds a little more, and Tracy's quote is right on.
It's so damn easy.
"For the foreseeable future, we're going to need oil products because I don't like the idea of hydrogen cars. I'm not sure I want to be cruising around a mall parking lot filled with a thousand mini-Hindenburgs."
- Dennis Miller
my sentiments exactly. i make a conscious effort everyday to spend as much time with amelia as possible, no matter what else is going on. and no one can profit from that, except for the two of us.
awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
this leans more towards the nature side of things, but...
it is a human mentality to only care about yourself, thats how it is. hardly anyone can be arsed to stop deforestation or cut back on pollution to save this animal or that animal. the rain forest is being destroyed at ridiculous levels, and we dont even know a lot of the plants we destroy and how much good they could do. we're in the midst of the largest extinction of plants and animals since the dinosaurs, and truth is, no one has any idea what the effects of that will be on the world. we have to respect the actual ground we walk on and the environment around us if we have any hope of treating each other better and making the world a better place in any way.
in this sense, i am a motherfucking hippy. dance away!
Quotethis leans more towards the nature side of things, but...
it is a human mentality to only care about yourself, thats how it is. hardly anyone can be arsed to stop deforestation or cut back on pollution to save this animal or that animal. the rain forest is being destroyed at ridiculous levels, and we dont even know a lot of the plants we destroy and how much good they could do. we're in the midst of the largest extinction of plants and animals since the dinosaurs, and truth is, no one has any idea what the effects of that will be on the world. we have to respect the actual ground we walk on and the environment around us if we have any hope of treating each other better and making the world a better place in any way.
in this sense, i am a motherfucking hippy. dance away!
I 100% agree with you, except for the assumption that people don't give a shit about their actions. I think the problem is that people aren't
thinking about what they're doing, and I think part of the reason for that is the fact that we've been inundated with stimulus for a long time, and we just kind of coast along the surface of billboards, and tv, and radio ads, and car horns, and and and. We filter. That means we become less conscious so that we can survive. If a person who had never been outside of the woods came into our civilization, they would be so fucked up. Watch a baby and how a baby looks at stuff. They haven't got their filters yet. And the filters are great because they let us survive, but they make us lazy. I don't think anybody wants the world to turn to shit. I think people just aren't conscious of it. They're just not conscious. To a certain extent, that's the fault of the ridiculous pursuits we've become addicted to. More breeds more. BUT, it's also our own faults. It's not like the answers aren't around us.
But ratsprayer, you're totally right. In a way, it IS all about nature. That's kind of the source of everything that is truly important, and we're forgetting that because we hardly even ever see it anymore.
I remember thinking that the reason people in BC were more laid back was because they could see the mountains all the time, even right downtown, and therefore, they were constantly reminded of nature, and that's kind of calming and head-clearing.
Maybe we all need to carry around little stones and flowers in our pockets so that we can touch them during the day and be reminded of things that are important.
heh. I suppose that's a hippie statement, too. ;)
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and head-clearing.
Maybe we all need to carry around little stones and flowers in our pockets so that we can touch them during the day and be reminded of things that are important.
heh. I suppose that's a hippie statement, too. ;)
i carry a piece of flint i gathered from the native american flint pits here in ohio and a chesnut oak acorn. i also wear patchouli a good deal of the time. ;) ;)
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i carry a piece of flint i gathered from the native american flint pits here in ohio and a chesnut oak acorn. i also wear patchouli a good deal of the time. ;) ;)
I usually have a stone or two in my pocket. I used to have a really nice chestnut from my grandparents farm, but it got kind of gross. I keep a native tool that Mark's dad gave me from his fields by my bed so that I can touch it at night if I can't sleep. I burn incense, and I like to wear lavender oil. ratsprayer, you are my friend. :)
Native Americans had it right. Respect and worship Mother Earth, and you shall be provided for. The Indians took no more, used no more and lived harmoniously with nature. Who the fuck do we think we are, to change, rather not change, but rape a natural cycle that has been around for millions of years? Much longer, I may add, than the Exxon Oil Co. and their 37 billion in blood money that they extorted from the world. Also, those who think that SARS, AIDS, Avian Flu, hurricanes, earth quakes, typhoons etc. are sent from God to punish sinful humans are complete LOONS! If anything, it's a big FUCK YOU from Mother Nature herself letting us know just how small we really are.
I love this conversation but don't have time to dig in.
I suggest you rent the movie: The Corporation. (based on the book The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power.) Or get that book.
http://www.thecorporation.com/index.php?page_id=2
Actually, corporations do have some of the same rights as humans do. The movie goes into detail about how these rights emerged and have aided in the corporate run country we live in.
(example: The law typically views a corporation as a fictional person, a legal person, or a moral person (as opposed to a natural person); United States law recognises this as corporate personhood. Under such a doctrine (obviously a legal fiction), a corporation enjoys many of the rights and obligations of individual persons, such as the ability to own property, sign binding contracts, pay taxes, have certain constitutional rights, and otherwise participate in society. (Note that corporations do not possess all the rights appertaining to individuals: in most jurisdictions, for example, a corporation cannot become a citizen and vote.))
QuoteNative Americans had it write. Respect and worship Mother Earth, and you shall be provided for. The Indians took no more, used no more and lived harmoniously with nature. Who the fuck do we think we are, to change, rather not change, but rape a natural cycle that has been around for millions of years? Much longer, I may add, than the Exxon Oil Co. and their 37 billion in blood money that they extorted from the world. Those who think that SARS, AIDS, Avian Flu, hurricanes, earth quakes, typhoons etc. are sent from God to punish sinful humans are complete LOONS! If anything, it's a big FUCK YOU from Mother Nature herself letting us know just how small we really are.
i like the way you think, friend. :)
QuoteNative Americans had it right. Respect and worship Mother Earth, and you shall be provided for. The Indians took no more, used no more and lived harmoniously with nature. Who the fuck do we think we are, to change, rather not change, but rape a natural cycle that has been around for millions of years? Much longer, I may add, than the Exxon Oil Co. and their 37 billion in blood money that they extorted from the world. Also, those who think that SARS, AIDS, Avian Flu, hurricanes, earth quakes, typhoons etc. are sent from God to punish sinful humans are complete LOONS! If anything, it's a big FUCK YOU from Mother Nature herself letting us know just how small we really are.
You do realize that sane Christians don't believe that, though, right? The whole molarchy of all the things you mentioned being punishment for sinners. It's a recourse from what's been giong on in the planet. I don't knwo how directly related the hurricanes were to our messing with the eco-system, but I'm very sure it's probably related. Anyone close-minded enough to say that those disasters happened as a punishment for sin is pretty off.
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You do realize that sane Christians don't believe that, though, right? The whole molarchy of all the things you mentioned being punishment for sinners. It's a recourse from what's been giong on in the planet. I don't knwo how directly related the hurricanes were to our messing with the eco-system, but I'm very sure it's probably related. Anyone close-minded enough to say that those disasters happened as a punishment for sin is pretty off.
ill speak for myself and say that mother nature is my god, not jesus, or god, or what the fuck ever. if you follow that belief system, it all makes sense. i dont think mother nature is punishing us for sin. its the way of the world, if you fuck with the earth, the world, mother nature, shes going to fuck you right back. not specifically like striking you with lightning, but an overall turbulent world is going to exist. christians just use god as an easy person/thing to blame instead of truly going out there and taking responsiblity for their actions. its easy to say, well this is god's way instead of truly being examining the intent and reason behind things happening.
acutally, i dont think a majority of the natural disasters and things like that are punishment for sin, just to clarify. i would say that im an environmentalist, but i dont believe in global warming, in the classic sense. yes, i know the world is getting hotter, but people have to realise we're only 10,000 years out of the last ice age, and in a non-chrisitan mind, people will know the earth is billions of years old. thats not even a split second in the world's time. of course the earth is getting warmer because we're still gaining back what was lost in the last ice age. i do believe some of the wicked weather is a sort of karmic (i dont believe in karma, but its the easiest way to explain it) force wrought up on us for our actions. the place where im sitting now was the bottom of a warm shallow sea 350 millions years ago. whats to say that couldnt happen again? we only started keeping accurate weather records 70 to 150 years ago, so we have no idea if the 2005 hurricane season was really ridiculous, or if something like that happens every 100 or 200 years on a normal cycle.
The refference to God encompasses pretty much all religion not just Christianity. To pigeon hole Christians would be absolutely close-minded of myself, and I would be no better than anyone else taking up residence in houses made of glass with a mad addiction to throwing stones... As far as I'm conserned, how people want to worship is their own business. It's when fundamentalism and violent tendancies come into play that it becomes truly a drag. Let's not kid ourselves, Christ, much like Smokey, was a pacifist... AWW fuck it dude, why can't we all just go bowling???
however, as screwed up as we are, we have come a long way in the past 150 years. (no more slavery, women suffrage, gay liberation, equal rights, etc...). Granted, we have a long way to go, but to compare how things were and how they are now, I'd say now is a lot better. people used to get shot and hung for being a certain race or espousing religious beliefs.
I believe weather does cycle and has very little to do with God, punishment and/or karma.
Personally, I feel I am being punished for almost ending the 3rd winter in a row without significant snowfall.
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Personally, I feel I am being punished for almost ending the 3rd winter in a row without significant snowfall.
fuck yeah, im with you on that. this has been the most ridiculous january i can recall in my 26 years. sure it will go from 50 degrees to 25 in one day, but the only precipitation we get is rain. i think weve gotten about 3 1/2 inches of snow since the cold season started, and 2 inches of that was from one "storm". of course last year, we had devastating ice here, something like 2 or 3 inches of ice, and soooooo many trees around here were just ripped from the ground. i dont like, ice, but a few 8 inch snow storms over the winter would be nice.
:) okay, cool. Just wanted to make sure you weren't takign what you heard from the crazed apocolyptic southern pastor's to be the whole of Christianity.
And Rats, I realized after I wrote that it came off on the offensive to you. I was merely refuting that Christians who are responsible with what they believe know not to just heap disaster on God's hands, but that we are indeed responsible. I'm in now way giving the hurricanes a "well, it's a mystery of God..." to the natural disasters that happen. Some people will believe that way, but it's because they are like the people you mentioned. The people who are happy to feel safe in their ignorance. But please don't lump all of Christianity into that category. We are definitely not just a mass of dogmatic idiots.
Quote:) okay, cool. Just wanted to make sure you weren't takign what you heard from the crazed apocolyptic southern pastor's to be the whole of Christianity.
And Rats, I realized after I wrote that it came off on the offensive to you. I was merely refuting that Christians who are responsible with what they believe know not to just heap disaster on God's hands, but that we are indeed responsible. I'm in now way giving the hurricanes a "well, it's a mystery of God..." to the natural disasters that happen. Some people will believe that way, but it's because they are like the people you mentioned. The people who are happy to feel safe in their ignorance. But please don't lump all of Christianity into that category. We are definitely not just a mass of dogmatic idiots.
nah i didnt mean to lump like that. i know good and bad christians, so dont take offense. i wish more christians were like you, to have an open mind and be willing to discuss things and see we arent so different. so, lets go bowling... ;)
how can you not believe in global warming?? i know we are just coming out of the last ice age, and that an integral part of the natural system of weather cycles is that after an ice age, there is always a corresponding period of warmer weather. that's natural. but global warming is about what we as a part of that natural cycle have done to the planet to exacerbate this natural warming, so it is warming much more & faster than would otherwise happen. have you heard of the greenhouse effect? and it's not just about getting hotter (although god i know about that this summer, which has been hotter than normal, and hotter earlier) but about the seasons getting more extreme. colder, wetter, hotter, drier.... it's not karma its a direct result of the shit that we as humans have pumped out into our atmosphere, at the same time as cutting down a vast proportion of the forests around the world. you do know that trees are the lungs of the world? yes we are in a hotter part of a natural cycle, but if we have severely damaged if not destroyed the natural systems that would normally help the world cope in times of natural climate change... we only have ourselves to blame. i guess you could call that karma - if you mean it is the direct consequence of several hundred years of increasing industrialisation catching up with us. calling it karma sounds a bit fatalistic to me, when after all, we could and should have been doing everything we can to fix this a long time ago.
EC i agree with you about people in past times being more in touch with natural systems as they were literally out in it. the country i live in is not exactly one of the more urbanised, but i still find that i need to get out of the city & just be out there. like i've said before, if nothing else, it's good for the soul
don't know about a hippie but i am definitely a greenie :) & i'm now a happier greenie after that little rant ;D
we have no idea how fast and how much warming is being done in correlation to thousands and millions of years ago. there have been numerous mass extinctions, the ocean currents completely change directions, the magnetic poles completely shift (which is long overdue), etc etc. we're long overdue for a lot of these things, and truth is any one of those factors could be fucking with the weather. i dont blame the greenhouse effect as the number one cause for it, sorry. im not a bush-ite who thinks global warming is going to destroy our economy, there are just shitloads of other factors at play. hell back in 1883, kraktoa exploded in indonesia and fucked with weather world-wide. that was just 123 years ago. why cant something else be happening today having an extreme influence on the weather. theres been talk about the core temperature of the earth changing as well. greenhouse gases are an easy thing to point and put up on a billboard, fact is, there are many known and unknown things we should be studying to find out, and even then, we wont ever figure it out unless we can go back in history and study the weather and whatnot for the past thousands and millions of years.
i do agree with you - we really do know so little about our own planet, but as well as looking back and trying to figure out what's happening or likely to happen in relation to what has happened in the past, i really really do believe that we should be trying to take control of things that we do that we know have serious consequences on our planet. pollutants, waste levels, clothing manufacture practices, farming & fishing practices.... god there are so many ways that we can actually improve things, weather is just one way we are fucking up our future. actual changes that can be put into practice now. we have already passed the point where we are consuming more resources than the planet can replace...
i read a book about krakatoa a while back (simon winchester if anyone's interested) which was really good. talked about the global impact (turner painted the unnatural sunsets in london caused by the ash from half way round the world). anak krakatoa (the child of krakatoa) is more or less the same size the original was when it blew, so who knows when it might happen again?
i have absolutely no idea what bush's stand on it is, but like a lot of things, to change global or even national practices, you have to make it economically as well a socially viable for people to change.
woah. this thread's all over the place. So let me cut to the chase and say I agree with Ratsprayer about just about everything. I too don't buy the global warming theory either. There is no evidence.
When I was a kid I remember everyone saying the earth was getting colder and we were headed towards an ice age. Then all of a sudden the earth is getting warmer which is also supposed to usher in a new ice age!?! You'll have to explain that one to me.
There is not much history about the weather we don't know how the climate works really and looking at it year to year is too simplistic to conclude that we are all going to die.
Also these are new problems and as I said in my earlier post, humans aren't always as smart as we give them credit for. A little over a hundred years ago the automobile hadn't been invented yet.
I agree that things need to change with consumption but I don't see it happening. It's human nature to be greedy because it is part our nature. Ratsprayer, you should know that the animal part of us always tries to survive by looking out for number one and by going out and getting whats at hand. I'm not try to justify greed, I'm just saying it's only natural and not going to end anytime soon.
Maybe if we all pray really hard God will make it all better. Or maybe Batman!
i can't believe you just said there is no evidence for global warming.
i could explain how global warming leads to an ice age, but there are websites and books out there... take a look. it's scary just how precarious natural systems are
just because it is a natural condition of humanity to be greedy (which i am not arguing with) and to be materialistic (i love my crap as much as the next girl), this doesn't mean we should just say "oh well, that's just the way we are". we need to change & i think we've got to the point where we HAVE to change. we only have one planet after all and mars still don't look like a comfortable alternative to me
Quotei can't believe you just said there is no evidence for global warming.
i could explain how global warming leads to an ice age, but there are websites and books out there... take a look. it's scary just how precarious natural systems are
just because it is a natural condition of humanity to be greedy (which i am not arguing with) and to be materialistic (i love my crap as much as the next girl), this doesn't mean we should just say "oh well, that's just the way we are". we need to change & i think we've got to the point where we HAVE to change. we only have one planet after all and mars still don't look like a comfortable alternative to me
I hate to be so pessimistic, but how do you propose we change human nature. Overcrowding is also a problem but how are you going to talk people out of having sex, by guilt tripping them into thinking that the world is going to end if they do? I don't think that will even work. Telling a teenager to not have sex or telling a rich person not to horde is like telling the sky not to rain. Sometimes it will listen but not because of anything you said.
introduce better education / availability of birth control for a start??? who said anything about stopping people having sex?
and its not about stopping people buying things, but more about getting people to think about what they're buying, where it came from, how it was made, not using a billion plastic bags everytime you go to the supermarket, that sort of thing. i'm not saying we have to re-write human nature, we just need to step back & think about what we're doing & how we're doing it for a change
i never thought that we would get rid of plastic bags, but due to some clever thinking & marketing, in melbourne we've managed to majorly cut down plastic bag usage at supermarkets. there is even a town near where i grew up that simply doesn't have them anymore. you just can't get them. now tell me that's not environmental issues changing human behaviour patterns, and that was not difficult at all
Dude, overcrowding may be trouble in China, but if you look at America, think about how many families you know that are having only one child, and later in life because it's more "convenient" that way. We're losing big familes like crazy. I think somewhere in Europe, the death rate was above the birth rate at some point. I'm not sure on that statistic, but I'm pretty sure it's true. A lot of people have been having small families because of convenience, and we're raising a TON of greedy only children as a result.
But I guess thats not part of overcrowding.
to turn the thread around once more...
it's fucking amazing me how all the talk the day after the speech is about alternative energy. i know people who normally loathe bush who are clapping like seals because of the talk about hydrogen-powered cars. its a smoke and mirrors trick. he couldnt talk about social security, everyone knows thats already fucked up, so they had to think of something to draw the focus away from the war and such.
once again, I agree with ratsprayer. He isn't going to do shit to slow down oil companies because that who he represents. He's just trying to get us talking about something other than his wire-tapping bullshit that would have gotten Clinton impeached, which no one has mentioned yet. Like I said, Bush is a lot smarter than most give him credit for. And so the thread comes full circle...
how often does he do one of these speeches?
sorry about ranting a bit before, i do believe in this stuff. plus i probably needed a good rant ;D
Quoteonce again, I agree with ratsprayer. He isn't going to do shit to slow down oil companies because that who he represents. He's just trying to get us talking about something other than his wire-tapping bullshit that would have gotten Clinton impeached, which no one has mentioned yet. Like I said, Bush is a lot smarter than most give him credit for. And so the thread comes full circle...
and, Bush is surrounded by very smart people with tons and tons of money.
Okay. Perhaps the good thing about whatever he said last night is that it's got people talking.
aMD and others, I don't believe it's part of human nature to be greedy. The thing about us is that we have heads, and we can use those heads. I think the human nature argument is the same as blaming everything on God, and what it does is takes away from personal responsibility.
Regardless of whether or not the greenhouse effect is causing global warming, we at least realize that we're acting like sonsofbitches in regards to waste. And I mean waste on a physical and a metaphysical level. I think WE'RE smarter than we give ourselves credit for.
I also think that showing by example is the best way to do things. I get inspired by people when they do something good, and it makes me want to do the same. I learn about myself by watching other people. I recognize that sounds naive, but we don't need the pessimism that overpowers talks like this. All it does is makes you feel defeated. Live your life well and learn from your mistakes.
That is the philosophy of the EC. 8)
EC, I like your philosophy. And I know I sound like a horrible pessimist, but I'm really trying to say that this waste and global warming talk is also quite similiar to the claims of right-wingers. The world is going to end so change your ways; what you do is wrong so change or suffer. I think we should just live life and keep dancin. damn the torpedos.
Ali, no sweat on the rant. I was egging you on. Do forgive me.
I know everyone is gonna LOVE me after this, but I actually voted for Bush back in '04 :-[
Don't get me wrong - I'm registered independent and have alot of conservative and alot of liberal views. I simply voted for him because I didn't want to change leadership in time of war. Plus, I just didn't like Kerry.
hey AMD no probs. it's been a while since i had a good rant about something! i feel much better now ;D
i don't think anyone's called me "similar" to a right-winger before though.... i'm in favour of a holistic approach to life, not a black & white "we're all sinners & goin to hell" type of thing
i like your philosophy too EC - mine would probably add learning about myself by learning about the world around me, not just people, and would involve a lot of chocolate consumption
This has been a great discussion.
For people who want to know what's really going on with nature and stuff, I propose that you read the following article: It's the best I've read about the environment, the weather and global warming in particular.
I know it's a bit long, but please do read it. It's so interesting
(and a little frightening too imo)
enjoy
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18616
Any reactions?
The planet goes through natural progressions of heating and cooling. We have history to prove this.
the overwhelming evidence to support what is called "global warming" is just too significant to ignore. in comparision to ice core samples that accurately chart tens of thousands of years of weather patterns, the atmosphere and ocean temperatures have risen significantly in the past 100 years, and the rise in the use of fossil fuels, which create carbon dioxide as a byproduct in the atmosphere, are also evident in those very ice core samples. this isn't some coincidence or accident, the industrial age and the age of the auto are directly to blame for that rise in carbon dioxide. coupled with the use of petrochemicals that caused damage to the ozone layer, which in turn allows for more UV radiation to get through to the atmosphere, it is no wonder real air and real water temperatures are rising.
i believe it is our nature to ignore problems until they become overwhelming. a solution to these problems is simple, but costly, and of course money makes the world go round. unless we do something right now about carbon dioxide emissions, those temperatures will continue to rise. the effects are already happening-sea levels rising, more frequent and intense tropical storms/hurricanes, and significant changes to the weather patterns.
there are islands in the Pacific that are disappearing because the sea level is rising. this isn't an accident or random pattern changing; the rise in sea temperatures is causing the ice caps to melt, creating more ocean that wasn't there before. AND, because of the overwhelming amount of farm runoff, which is nitrogen based, there is a problem with green algae growing in the ocean that also causes the temperature to rise.
we just can't sit back anymore and ignore this problem. I personally drive vehicles that are ULE (ultra low emission) and put out less Co2 than other cars. My next vehicle will be a hybrid. It's the little things that collectively we all can do to make a difference. And it's up to America, the largest producer of carbon dioxide, to make a significant impact on this ever-growing problem.
Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my passions.
QuoteThe planet goes through natural progressions of heating and cooling. We have history to prove this.
You can't predict the future using history, therefore we have (natural) science. That's elementary, my dear zycartrobz.
Quote
You can't predict the future using history, therefore we have (natural) science. That's elementary, my dear zycartrobz.
OK, guess I'll wait to see what comes next here in Nashville; Autumn, Spring or Summer.
I am hoping for Autumn. I'd like football season to start in late March. And then Spring for June and heck, I'd say October will be great for Winter. However, since I can't predict the future based on history, here's to Auntumn starting tomorrow...Who do the Saints play?
those are just names we assigned for the seasons. natural science is an entire discipline. we can say it will be spring soon, but overall, can we predict what the weather is going to be just because a calendar says it's going to be spring?
i think those are two very seperate things.
the arctic ice caps are melting, yes the north pole is getting much warmer, but the south pole is getting colder. the magnetic poles are very long overdue in switching places, id say theres a good chance this will happen in most of our life times. you cant just point at the factors of the weather that point to things getting warmer. there are places in the world getting colder. due to the atlantic current coming off greenland, the climate in europe is expected to drop an estimated 10 degrees farenheit in the next 20 to 30 years. thats an insanely large change in such a short amount of time. mother nature works in balance, friends. some times its not a balance we can comprehend or accept. for every place getting big time warm, theres some place getting big time cold. lots of rain some place, no so much somewhere else. people get used to their area of existence having a certain sort of weather, and it just doesnt stay the same forever.
well, those are changes in the weather and not necessarily to the climate. two very different things.
regardless of pattern changes, the sea level rising should be a concern to anyone who lives within the coastal areas of any country on earth. if the sea level continues to rise, what will happen to the trillions of dollars of infrastructure that's on those shores, not to mention the millions of people who live there?
id say long term temperature change is more climate than weather. climate is in the midst of change, so the weather is fluctuating right now, they are connected in lots of ways. a few years of intense hurricane activity is weather, not climate.
i do agree the world is getting warmer, and i know green house gases have a factor, im just arguing the amount of influcene they have. yes, without a doubt, we should do what we can to curb it, but i think the earth is getting warmer regardless.
look at the boxing day 2004 earthquake and the resulting tsunami. entire islands were engulfed there. earthquakes, they have nothing to do with weather, and coasts and physical land masses can be consumed. the earth does as it wishes. sure, we help, but certain things are just going to happen, no matter what we do or dont do.
Quote the earth does as it wishes. sure, we help, but certain things are just going to happen, no matter what we do or dont do.
I wonder if anybody read Jared Diamond's "Collapse"? It's a great book. Diamond's message is this:
"What lessons can we draw from history? The most straightforward: take environmental problems seriously. They destroyed societies in the past, and they are even more likely to do so now"
just 2 examples (there are more):
Maya societies just as the Polynesian society on Easter Island all vanished because of environmental degradation by people: deforestation, soil erosion and water management problems, all of which resulted in less food. Those problems were exacerbated by droughts, which may have been partly caused by humans themselves through deforestation. Chronic warfare made matters worse, as more and more people fought over less and less land and resources.
Why weren't these problems obvious to the Maya kings or to the polynesians, who could surely see their forests vanishing and their hills becoming eroded?
Part of the reason was that the kings were able to insulate themselves from problems afflicting the rest of society. By extracting wealth from commoners, they could remain well fed while everyone else was slowly starving.
What's more, the kings were preoccupied with their own power struggles. They had to concentrate on fighting one another and keeping up their images through ostentatious displays of wealth. By insulating themselves in the short run from the problems of society, the elite merely bought themselves the privilege of being among the last to starve.
If 6,000 Polynesians with stone tools were able to destroy Mangareva Island, consider what six billion people with metal tools and bulldozers are doing today. Moreover, while the Maya collapse affected just a few neighboring societies in Central America, globalization now means that any society's problems have the potential to affect anyone else. Just think how crises in Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq have shaped the United States today.
Does that rings a bell?
It can happen again...
see im not arguing the humans have no part in the destruction of the world, quite opposite. yes destroying trees and plants can lead to erosion and lack of food, medicine, etc. im saying that natural disasters can and do affect the weather and climate, and theres nothing we can do about those. we have a responsbility as a race of creature to protect the environment in which we live. it just seems to me that a lot of the scope of global warming seems to follow the belief that we as humans are 100% responsible for the weather and climate changes, and thats simply not true. we have a huge part in it, but theres also a massive underlying natural scope of things that is truly not understood.
You're absolutely right :)
Dinosaurs didn't do anything wrong did they, and where are they now ;D?
My fear is that once we understand everything, it might be too late.
Diamond once more:
"History also teaches us two deeper lessons about what separates successful societies from those heading toward failure. A society contains a built-in blueprint for failure if the elite insulates itself from the consequences of its actions. That's why Maya kings and Easter Island chiefs made choices that eventually undermined their societies. They themselves did not begin to feel deprived until they had irreversibly destroyed their landscape.
I think we already now more than enough to ACT.
(not that I'm all too positive about the human race and its future though)
as long as there is Rock 'n' Roll... 8)
I can distinctly remember in 1972 listening in horror as Walter Cronkite reported that Houston, Texas was sinking and would be in the Gulf of Mexico by the end of the century.
Scared the shit out of me.
And then the Killer Bees?HORRORFIED! Don't get me started!
(http://vaso.webzdarma.cz/gallery/K/Killer%20Bees.JPG)
Quotethose are just names we assigned for the seasons. natural science is an entire discipline. we can say it will be spring soon, but overall, can we predict what the weather is going to be just because a calendar says it's going to be spring?
i think those are two very seperate things.
I will bet you a large sum of money that the average temperature in summer will be higher than the average temperature in winter; that's my prediction. If you disagree with my logic, then let's bet (and I mean, a lot of money).
Backtracking...
Here's critical analysis of the Truthfulness of Bush's speech, by nonpartisan factcheck.org. (Basically, he's not a liar, he just doesn't tell the truth)
http://www.factcheck.org/article376.html
My favorite bit:
"Bush spoke of a "goal" of cutting dependence on Middle Eastern oil, failing to mention that US dependence on imported oil and petroleum products increased substantially during his first five years in office, reaching 60 per cent of consumption last year."
Quote
I will bet you a large sum of money that the average temperature in summer will be higher than the average temperature in winter; that's my prediction. If you disagree with my logic, then let's bet (and I mean, a lot of money).
that's not logic; it's semantics.
Quote
that's not logic; it's semantics.
Not semantics at all. The average air temperature in the summer (where I live) is warmer than the average air temperature in the winter. I will bet you (through sound reasoning ie
logic) that this summer will be warmer than this winter. The "rule" (via mother nature) that summer is warmer than winter (where I live) cannot be disputed. Of course this is based on many assumptions such as the sun still creating energy and the earth tilt on it's axis, etc...
My prediction is based in logic. You can call this season of higher temperature "poodle doo" if you want, it still doesn't refute that it will be warmer in 4 months than cooler.
Whatever you say, Master Sensei.
(rolls eyes)
you two are pure entertainment, in a good way. 8)
Quotehe mispronounces it on purpose because it endears him to some of the idiots who vote for him. He's a lot smarter than people think, it's the American public that is dumb.
I agree, he talks in that slow, southern type way so he can connect to all the fucking conservative, republican, nascar loving, bible- reading, ford- driving, larry the cable guy watching, walmart shopping rednecks that live in this society will understand him.
Fuck Bush, Cheney, and the whole crooked administration.
all we need to do is get someone to recreate dinosaurs, perhaps on a small island somewhere with jeff goldblum involved. then the dinos can escape, wreak havoc, die.... wait a couple mil years, and we'll have oil again. dinos rule
in the midst of my reading about such things, i came across the fact that it takes the energy equivalent of one barrel of oil to get one barrel of oil from the ground. god, fucking neo-cons and oil execs are so brilliant!
Okay, who here is a scientist? yeah, go ahead raise your hand? Anyone? Oh yeah, why don't we just listen to the scientists who have actually done the research and know what they're talking about...and here's that great article again:
thanks, Mr. T
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18616
QuoteOkay, who here is a scientist? yeah, go ahead raise your hand? Anyone? Oh yeah, why don't we just listen to the scientists who have actually done the research and know what they're talking about...and here's that great article again:
thanks, Mr. T
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18616
And you'll find another group of scientists who will disagree.
Perhaps we should ask Tom Cruise...
Thanks Saki, I wonder how many of those who posted some silly remarks actually read that article.
I hope some people did the effort, it's well worthwile.
I don't think Mr. Bush ever will though... :-/
It was great! I want everyone I know to read it. It's the most convincing article I've read yet for the global warming/greenhouse effect argument.
And, I don't think Bush will read it...hey! (to get back to the original topic) He can't even pronounce the word "nuclear" right? terror=terrrrrrr!! ;)