Today is IWD. It's interesting because I just noticed that Google doesn't have any kind of fun picture, whereas for almost every other thing, they do. I also just noticed that my daytimer doesn't recognize it, but it does recognize Secretary's Day.
So, I won't pass any judgement about that, I just found it interesting.
Happy International Women's Day!!
And to you. I didn't know that :-/
its also International Kitchen Day................................................
im so kidding. :-X
They also never have anything in November for Native American History month. Its sad, America's (and the world's) Forgotten Minority.
at least it sounds like there is some sort of recognition happening there... all we have in australia to recognise aboriginal culture is "sorry day" which started a few years back, which they've renamed "national day of healing" or something. sorry day seemed like such a crap way of trying to make amends for 200+ years of mistreatment/neglect/persecution, but at least it was a start. we had massive turn-outs around the country for marches etc but our prime minister still refuses to say sorry in public, which is completely ridiculous
happy women's day ladies!!
women=good 8)
QuoteAnd to you. I didn't know that :-/
No worries, doc. I just called my Mom and she didn't know, either. I just think it's a good day to think about stuff. :)
ratsprayer just reminded me that women's day is over.
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the amazing women who had to go through a lot of really hard things in order to try and make the world a better place. And still are.
And that goes for all of the people in the world who do brave acts. Thank you.
If anybody is interested in reading about feminism, here is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism and as with anything, you take what you read and you decide how you feel about it.
Girls and boys rock!
well behaved women never make history.
;D
i don't think i like feminism.
i'm cool with women not being oppressed and not taking shit from our good old-fashioned american chauvinist men, but i don't really stand for bra-burning and women attempting to out-do men.
oh man, did i just make myself sound chauvinist?
anyways, i think men and women complement eachother. That's why we're here. Unfortunately, our society has thrown everything out the window and considered power to be the ultimate measure of a person, regardless of sex. So women wear pant-suits and carry briefcases attempting to fill the same penny-loafers as men who pretty much hate their jobs too, but do it for the money. Not so much because they love it, but because it's one hell of a status symbol.
Screw that. I say, women, don't be afraid to be women. Take five years off when you have kids and enjoy the color pink and be feminine. I'm not saying you have to, but there's nothing wrong with being one sex or the other. God made us men and women for good reason, we've both got ways in which we complement the other. Men, we're bigger (on average) which gives us the ability to protect. Chivalry comes into the picture with this one. We are fathers, the ones who are (or were at one point) expected to be the head of the household, and seen kind of as representative of the family. And women, there's a saying "Behind every great man is an even better woman." Which is pretty much completely true. Think of how worthless men would be without you guys' brain power to help us out. We'd be pretty bumbling. Maybe not completely, but I know for a fact that a great woman makes a man want to be an even better man.
This is all coming from a man's perspective, which i why i haven't listed a ton of things about women, because i really don't know how you guys feel. But am I wrong? Does that make sense, with the complementing eachother thing? I don't want to come off sounding like a fool. I'm not some woman-oppressor, I just think that women attempting to be CEO's and Presidents of companies just seems weird. I mean, i don't even know why men want to do that, I'm not a business-minded person, but that just doesn't come off right to me. The women I normally think of in that position are power-hungry, and that doesn't rub me the right way.
Sorry if this is totally discombobulated. If i really screwed up, lemme know, but be gentle, because I'm pretty frickin worn out. I'll look over this tomorrow, and see if anyone hates me, and i'll do my best to fix it. Please comment or whatever, and I'd especially love to hear what you girls/ladies think.
(i'm not trying to say women are best suited for the kitchen, if that's what you tried to read in from this, just so you know)
i think people, men or women, should be whatever they want to be and what best suits their own life. my wife prefers the role of a stay at home mom, to take care of the kids and be a housewife. i happen to work at home, but most of the nearly seven years weve been together, shes not had to work, and we both wanted it that way. its not because im trying to keep her down, or she wants to be lazy. personally, i believe its best if one of the parents can stay at home with the kids and not have them be put in day care. my ultra-feminist sister-in-law likes to criticise and thinks were just following gender roles. bullshit. basically, like i said in the beginning, everyones life has a different plan. if some woman wants to be ceo and all that, good deal. if another wants to do the opposite, so be it. i do think feminists, just like any other extremist, tend to look at things one-sided and think all women should fuck men over as much as possible. to each his or her own works best in any aspect of life, me thinks. ;D
Oooooooky dokes. Tom, you and me are gonna have a BIG talk in Nashville.
just kiddin'. ;) Kind of. I need a bit of time to think. Too early.
Tom, that's the biggest load of crap I've read since I joined this board. You basically have no concept of feminism or the levels and definitions of feminism. In fact, some of the statements you made taken out of context, could be construed as supporting feminism. Do yourself a favour and take a few sociology classes or better yet, take a women's issues course, if it's offered at the college or university nearest you.
Okay, so Tom I just emailed you a really easy thing to look over. I think it's really important if we have this discussion that everybody stays calm and has understanding of where the other person is coming from. I'm not angry or anything like that, but I am interested in keeping you interested enough to learn a few things - just to give you some perspective, because it's something that you said yourself you hadn't really been interested in. So I'm at work and can't really write but in spits and spurts. I just found this, which is basically a western timeline of events. I really want to talk about early history and matriarchy vs. patriarchy (because I wonder if you know about how it used to be ages and ages ago). Anyhow, here's a timeline so you can know maybe how things got started.
http://www.ibiblio.org/prism/mar98/path.html
:)
QuoteI'm not some woman-oppressor, I just think that women attempting to be CEO's and Presidents of companies just seems weird. I mean, i don't even know why men want to do that, I'm not a business-minded person, but that just doesn't come off right to me. The women I normally think of in that position are power-hungry, and that doesn't rub me the right way.
okay, so 1:30 in the morning isn't the best time to write a peudo-rant. i apologize for the above statement, as it was reeeallly not thought out. or at least not written the way i wanted it to be. and also my head is a little broader at this time of day, too.
about the CEO thing, i'm not trying to say women shouldn't do that. I think I was thinking more of corporate America when i wrote that, and people in pin-stripe suits behind giant wood desks in $400 chairs on the 80th floor of some building downtown. That said, I don't really like any of those people, regardless of sex. And by don't really like, I mean I'd be pretty cautious about them if I met them. It sucks, but that's a lot of what stereotyping does, and since i have absolutely no ties to that world, i see almost eveyrone in it as a serious foreigner. i don't hate those people, i just have absolutely no understanding of that world.
moving on, i just realized that i forgot about every single business smaller than the model i just described. and realized there's a lot of really kick-ass smaller independent (or maybe not so independent, butwhatever) stores that have women in charge of them. So what I said only applies to like DuPont sized companies. or something. do you get what I mean?
Jaimoe, I'm sorry I came off like I did to you. When I think of feminism, the first thing that comes to mind are the kind of people that coudl be referred to as "femi-nazi's". The kind who hate men, and want to one-up them at every chance. Who make it a life point to show how they can better than men, and that they don't need them, which is garbage. Men and women need eachother in order for society to work.
I'm sorry my ramble came out like that. And I'm also sorry that I chose to write it that late at night, with most of my thoughts elsewhere. But I said a few htings I meant. The part I quoted is the one that shouldn't be taken for what I said, because it really is shit. And I'm sorry for that.
That said, I also forgot about the worldwide issues of the subject, which involve women being beaten as power symbols. In the middle east, it's considered good status to beat your wife. There's something wrong with you if you don't, they think. I remember hearing a story of two people from some islam nation who had converted to Christianity, but in order to not be found out, one of the things they had to do was to fake beatings. The man would make all kidns of noise sounding like things being thrown and the woman would scream. I find that pretty sick, that you would be looked down on for not beating your wife.
The kind of oppression that goes on globally, that is extremely real, and i apologize for forgetting that when i wrote my rant. Those issues are extremely important, and damn hard to overcome. So the more awareness, the more we can start helping wih it, if even just in small ways.
I guess I did wind up coming off the completely wrong way with what I wrote. I've got pretty big heart for that kind of stuff, but when I hear feminism, I think of America. And how we really aren't that oppressed at all in this country. If you've got points to make against that, please let me know. And please don't be hostile, I really have not read much about it, but from what I can tell, the biggest way our country oppresses women is through what the media has done with body image...which is pretty much close to evil. But that's more of a psychological influential thing, and can be avoided/overcome.
I think I've written enough, now. So I'll leave you with all that.
If I just said something more that offended you, please be civil about it and let me know, and I will listen to what you have to say. I'm not a hard-headed prick about this stuff, and I will most certaily be willing to learn some more.
~Tom
I understand your points Tom, but women continue to be oppressed in America, but it's generally more layered and subtle and I believe conditioned in the social consciousness.
For example, there's still an unequal pay scale in the US between men and women. The perception that women are inferior because of their perceived inferior physical strength still permeates North American society. Exploitation is another blatant form of oppression that continues at an alarming rate worldwide. Etc... etc...
Anyway, with regards to feminism definitions, the "femi-nazis" would be in the radical feminist category. Feminism can mean many things and can be defined in many ways and levels. Women that want equal pay and equal rights are feminists. In fact, any woman (or man) that believes in women and women's rights is a feminist, so you too Tom are a feminist
;D
Enough with this for today. I gotta get back to Trade Deadline Day for the NHL and ready myself for Canada vs Mexico tonight in the World Baseball Classic.
I love International Women's Day, because it's just like Valentine's - a holiday created by men for the purpose of getting in good with their lady.
"Hey baby, Happy International Women's Day - I appreciate you because you're a strong, beautiful, awesomeness woman."
How could a guy complain about being given yet another opportunity to get some bonus points with his lady?
;D
QuoteI love International Women's Day, because it's just like Valentine's - a holiday created by men for the purpose of getting in good with their lady.
"Hey baby, Happy International Women's Day - I appreciate you because you're a strong, beautiful, awesomeness woman."
How could a guy complain about being given yet another opportunity to get some bonus points with his lady?
;D
Okay. Fo serious, you have to tell me you're jokin'. Otherwise, I gotta talk to you, too.
Still want to talk - still at work. Jaimoe, you're an excellent speaker. And Tom, good work on your re-claim.
(http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/north_country/charlize_theron/northcountry_poster.jpg)
okaaay.... this is my little pseudo-rant in response.
bra-burning is not good, particularly if you're still wearing it.
when you think "feminist", please don't immediately think of some ultra-ultra-ultra scary man-hating beast. there is so much more to being a feminist than that, as there is more to being a woman than wearing a skirt. you guys out there don't call yourself a man just because you might wear a tie to work do you? they are just superficial labels and symbols that our societies and culture have attached to us to identify us as "woman" or "man". feminist is also just a label, one that most people (both men & women) probably don't fully understand or appreciate, hence the usual immediate "run a mile, she's a bra-burning feminist!!!" response. hey, i'm the first to admit i really don't know the full history of the feminist movement, but i do know what i feel about:
1. being a woman in a western "multicultural" but still quite anglo-saxon-biased society
2. being a woman in a traditionally male-dominated industry (although there are a lot more women coming up.. i work in an office of 5, 4 of whom are women)
3. living in a time & country where i can vote, i can drive, i can go to university, i can make my own life choices as an individual, not being denigrated or restricted because of my sex.
if women want to become a CEO or president, go for it. why the hell not. but why is a power-hungry woman seen as being worse than a power-hungry man? i don't see the difference. personally, regardless of sex, i find that particular HUMAN personality characteristic quite unattractive. and it is a HUMAN quality. there have always been ambitious women who wanted to take control of their lives and even other peoples lives too, they just weren't always out front waving the flag getting all the attention. look at ancient rome or egypt or many other ancient cultures. (some of which were matriarchal societies, god forbid).
women are paid less for doing the same jobs as men worldwide, its not just a US phenomenon. i'm not the most ambitious girl in the world, but i've worked damn hard to get where i am, i love my job, and if society dictated that i get paid less for the work i do and the hours i put in just because i am a woman, then surely everyone can see there is something wrong with that. i understand that there is work out there that women traditionally aren't deemed to be "suited" for (due to being smaller, weaker, less intelligent, whatever...), but if i wanted to be a construction worker or a mechanic or prime minister of australia, and that was my life's goal, then why the hell shouldn't i have the same opportunities? i admit i'd be a pretty crap construction worker, but brute physical strength or height is not always the answer. you have to understand what you have, and find the way to use what you've got to achieve the goal. i am sure i could build a house just as well as you blokes could.
on the other hand, if at 18 i had decided to have children & stay home to look after them, rather than going to uni... that
decision would not have made me any less of a person, any less fulfilled by my life and my decisions. i do think that, just because there are a lot more opportunities and choices out there for my generation than there were for even my mum's generation, there is an impression out there that if you don't become a career-driven workaholic maniac, then you are seen as less of a person, less of a "21st century" woman. which is just weird. do what your head & heart tells you is the best for you. and be happy.
international women's day is SURELY more about appreciating how far recognition, acceptance and promotion of women's rights in society have come (even in the last 100 years), and should make us all look at what life means for women around the world today and in the future. so long as there are countries around the world where female genital mutilation is condoned, where women are being stoned to death because they looked at a man not a blood relative or husband... there is a long way to go. we have it so good in the west sometimes. so IMD is not an opportunity for scoring "bonus points". geez, open your eyes...
in australia, aboriginal women only got the right to vote, and the "right" to be recognised as australian citizens in 1967. how incredibly WRONG is that?
ali :)
wow, i didn't realise quite how long that'd got... ;)
Quotewow, i didn't realise quite how long that'd got... ;)
you wordy woman ::) ::)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
that's me!! 8)
Quoteif women want to become a CEO or president, go for it. why the hell not. but why is a power-hungry woman seen as being worse than a power-hungry man? i don't see the difference. personally, regardless of sex, i find that particular HUMAN personality characteristic quite unattractive. and it is a HUMAN quality. there have always been ambitious women who wanted to take control of their lives and even other peoples lives too, they just weren't always out front waving the flag getting all the attention. look at ancient rome or egypt or many other ancient cultures. (some of which were matriarchal societies, god forbid).
on the other hand, if at 18 i had decided to have children & stay home to look after them, rather than going to uni... that
decision would not have made me any less of a person, any less fulfilled by my life and my decisions. i do think that, just because there are a lot more opportunities and choices out there for my generation than there were for even my mum's generation, there is an impression out there that if you don't become a career-driven workaholic maniac, then you are seen as less of a person, less of a "21st century" woman. which is just weird. do what your head & heart tells you is the best for you. and be happy.
kick ass.
the first paragraph i quoted, i wanted to come back and say that i guess i tip-toed around what you said without actually saying it, but meaning it. not that women don't belong as ceo's and that the type of woman that gets into that situation is unattractive, but that most people who head up companies like that are not very "attractive" people (personality-wise). that said, i think it is an unattractiveness that the world is used to seeing in men, which is why it has been brushed off more, because it's not seen as "abnormal." but since women in such a situation are relatively new to the scene, that's seen with some wary eyes.
and that second paragraph i just quoted because its truth, pure and simple. but the world forgets that. a lot of times people kind of go "you're just a stay-at-home mom?" and completely overlook the fact that that is probably one of the most important jobs a mother could take. and its not bad at all, it's one of the most beuatiful things out there--great moms.
i don't think i've got much else to say.
i wouldn't be where i am today without my mum, who stayed at home to look after us, and my dad, who worked his arse off to give us a good life :)
Yipeee! Quite enjoying this thread. Most people have touched upon a lot of the stuff I wanted to say, but I still got a little left. realdeal, I did enjoy your picture contributions quite a bit. I knew those puppets were smart.
I'm probably telling you stuff that you already know, but the world used to run in matriarchal societies. Women were in charge, all of the god(esse)s were women, women made the decisions. The men were kind of considered grunt work. Which is wrong. And then that changed a fair amount, and a lot of that had to do with the rise of Christianity and Judaism. Well, organized religion in general. And that's just the way it was, so nobody's blaming anybody who's alive today. And then the pendulum swung pretty far in the opposite direction, and with the onslaught of the written word and with so much faith in organized religion, and a lot of rules about gender roles written within the holy texts, it stuck.
I'm not a historian. Most of this is just stuff I remember from lots of things.
Part of the reason it's really important for the Western world to incorporate equal rights (for everyone) is because the 2nd and 3rd world countries tend to follow suit. Most rights are now equal, but opportunities and abidement of the rights are not necessarily so.
Yesterday I mostly thought about how glad I was that there's a lot of crap I don't have to deal with. And then I thought about why I am able to think that way.
Tom, a few points about your comments about men and women. Jaimoe hit the nail on the head when he said that thinking that way is dangerous - we're physically different therefore we have different roles. I don't agree with that. Not only because there are big women and small women and big men and small men, but also because the male/female relationship is no longer the only acceptable relationship. There are many many homosexual couples. And contrary to popular belief, they don't always fall into the "you're the girl and i'm the guy in this relationship". People are dynamic. And as far as families, the same goes. There are incredible single parents, there are crappy single parents. There are wonderful "normal" families, and there are wonderful families where both parents are gay. And it's not just the lesbians adopting the babies. I know a few gay couples who had to fight pretty hard to adopt their babes, but they did it, and they're tremendous fathers. So it kind of doesn't make sense to think of the typical roles as valid anymore.
Same with the primary caregivers. Women can do it, men can do it. And the children turn out juuuuuust fine. That may have been different many years ago because the babies needed the boobs, but we have breast pumps now, and a Dad can develop a strong bond with his child through bottle feeding. Some Dads even choose to wear fake boobs. Whatever you want.
BUT that does NOT mean that you CAN'T choose to follow the traditional roles. Of course you can. And, like in ratsprayer's situation, sometimes you'll get shit even for that, so what the hell, eh? Everybody's gonna have somebody find something wrong with how they're doing things, but you have to be able to live in a society where YOU figure out what works best for you, and you proceed with your life that way.
I've mentioned this before, but the "year" as we know it was changed by some King back in (I think) medieval times. Back when paganism was still strong, and Christianity and monarchies were beginning to form, months were called moonths and they were based on the moon cycle, which has 13 cycles in a "year". Those cycles also followed the patterns of women's menstrual cycles, because women's cycles follow the moon. The problem was that in the 13th moonth, the leaders (women) would sacrifice a man to the gods. So when the Kings came on board, they changed the name and cyclical patterns so that there would never be a 13th month/moonth. Hence the reason we hate the number 13. Neat, eh? There's a pretty good example of both sides being retarded.
I used to do freelance work for a feminist theatre company (Tom, those were the peeps who made the email I sent to you with all the stats.) I remember the artistic director telling me that they did a poll, and most women between the ages of 13 and 30 did not define themselves as feminists because they all assumed that a feminist was an extremist, which is not the case. As Jaimoe said, there are varying definitions, and unfortunately, that tends to only make it harder for everyone.
Should we go back to a matriarchal society? Hell no. Nor should we just go as we are in, what is for the most part, a patriarchal society. And you can't change the world overnight, but everybody would agree that a lot of change has happened over the past 150-200 years. There is awareness of equality for everybody that never existed before.
If you're a feminist, it doesn't mean you can't be other things, too: a pacifist, a Christian, a Muslim a stay-at-home-mom, a man.
And in case you don't think that there are still weird stereotypes, let me give you some personal examples:
-Thanksgiving, my Uncle John was talking about his "office ladies". (He owns a company, and every person who works in the financial management side is a man, and every person who is a "secretary" or does boring office work is a woman.) So he said something about how they're always on about something or other. "You know how women are - they always have to bitch and complain." To ME, he says this. So upon further questioning, the women were asking for the same health benefits as the men.
-My Dad is pretty good, but every once in a while throws me a curveball (like his George W love), and I can't believe I am a product of his loins. We were driving around downtown and there was a strike, and yep, most of the strikers were women. And my Dad goes "Jeez, look at that. Isn't that typical - the women trying to prove their point." And, again, he says this to ME.
-You would not BELIEVE how many people talk about the fact that I'm a woman when we're talking about music. I gave a demo thing to some dude for some thing, and he writes back and says nice things, and THEN says "I was surprised, because generally I'm not very interested in most female singer/songwriters." And that made me feel like suddenly I wasn't even in the "singer/songwriter" category, but I was in the lesser, female version.
And you know that most people don't mean shit that way, but it's also interesting to see what people actually do believe. And hell, let me tell you, it works in the opposite direction. I have said stupid shit like "You're such a fucking guy." or, assuming that somebody's behaving badly because they're a man. So none of that is cool.
Oh lord how long is this going to be. I think I've made all my points. Roles aren't set in stone anymore, women still get the shaft because they're women... oh wait!!
I can't remember what it's called off the top of my head, but it used to be the law, until LAST YEAR, that family disputes within Jewish or Muslim familes could be settled in Religious Courts. Some of the rulings CONDONED beating your wife. (Is it the Koran, or possibly the Torah as well, that gives a husband a lot of leeway in the violence department?) Yeah dudes. That's fucking CA-NA-DA. The government finally overuled and said that all disputes must be settled in regular courts.
So there. That's enough. I really liked reading what everybody had to say. :)
it's all interesting isn't it? i love reading & writing in these massive discussions we get goin on here...
QuoteYesterday I mostly thought about how glad I was that there's a lot of crap I don't have to deal with.
me too. we are soooo lucky
now this is a can of worms! Great discussion. I consider myself a quasi-femininst and use plenty of feminist tenents in counseling, exploring issues of power.
I can add that men need to question why we are fearful of women being powerful. Rush Limbaugh came up with "femi nazi" b/c that scares people (as nazism should). Like terrorist. FEAR. So many of us are raised to feel if a woman is in power, then we are "less than". And if you are "less than", then you lose. Men aren't supposed to lose, especially to women. (I have had groups around date rape, exploring the American fascination with winning. When a woman on a date says NO, in theory, she has WON. That doesn't sit well with many maschismos, so the man must WIN...). I could go on and on and on....
Glad to say I am proud to be a part of a message board that's willing to talk about this stuff.
Quotenow this is a can of worms! Great discussion. I consider myself a quasi-femininst and use plenty of feminist tenents in counseling, exploring issues of power.
I can add that men need to question why we are fearful of women being powerful. Rush Limbaugh came up with "femi nazi" b/c that scares people (as nazism should). Like terrorist. FEAR. So many of us are raised to feel if a woman is in power, then we are "less than". And if you are "less than", then you lose. Men aren't supposed to lose, especially to women. (I have had groups around date rape, exploring the American fascination with winning. When a woman on a date says NO, in theory, she has WON. That doesn't sit well with many maschismos, so the man must WIN...). I could go on and on and on....
Glad to say I am proud to be a part of a message board that's willing to talk about this stuff.
I'm really glad that you brought those points up. I never really thought about date rape being a power issue - I mean, aside from the obvious. That's a very interesting way of looking at it. What about date rape between men?
Quote
I'm really glad that you brought those points up. I never really thought about date rape being a power issue - I mean, aside from the obvious. That's a very interesting way of looking at it. What about date rape between men?
What I have learned is it's about power So much of what we do in life falls in where our power is. You can really dissect people's actions when you look at power; who has it, who doesn't, and what some will do to get it, even if brief or destructive.
some fuckin jerk off drugged my sister and her friend at a bar. i came home at 3 am and saw lying on the floor all fucked up and crying. she didnt get raped thank god, cause an all out massacre would have happened, garnered world wide attention. she knew something was happening and she left before she could become prey. she was found by a friend in a snow bank about 2 miles from my house. i sobered up real quick thats for sure. woke my parents and brought her and her other friend, whos boyfriend had taken her home, and brought them both to the hospital. it could have been one of her friends she was drinking with too, some sort of nasty joke. no idea. i dont think it was GHB, cause she would have never been awake for several hours, but she rememebrs most of it. what ever it was, her friend just got denied health insurance from that toxicology report. hoping to find out tommrow what it was, maybe track down some loser skid drug peddler and fuck him up. now im getting furious, putting on AT DAWN right now >:(
that is seriously awful.... hope your sister & her friend are ok... there are some shit people out there
Wow jrat. I'm really sorry to hear that. That must be so hard. I have heard so many stories like that in the last while, and it's disturbing and frustrating. Especially when it's your sister.
I hope everybody is okay. Man alive.
Date rape and that drug were only briefly starting to get talked about when I was in highschool and University, and it wasn't really an issue in the theatre school. But when Jen wento to University of Iowa, they actually gave a lecture to the students about how to avoid getting slipped something. And she said to some people afterwards "Wow, people are really paranoid here." And then she heard about five stories of people having had it happen to them. It's a sad world when you can't put your beer down to go to the bathroom.
QuoteWhat I have learned is it's about power So much of what we do in life falls in where our power is. You can really dissect people's actions when you look at power; who has it, who doesn't, and what some will do to get it, even if brief or destructive.
So, when you're talking to your groups, what do you tell them is the way to do it? Is it that power is ultimately in yourself, and if you feel that then you'll be okay in most situations? (I'm talking about self esteem here, NOT about physical abuse.) And what kind of stuff does a person do to feel their own power?
(I hope it's clear that I am really interested, and I'm not trying to set you up or anything. Internet clarification.)
I get power by giving it away. I spend time with people. Time is power, especially with adolescents who don't have positive adult role models.
Being with someone in a non-judgemental, caring way is empowering to the other person, if they don't ever get that.
Story: waiting for the Jacket to come on in Nashville I was like 3 rows from the stage when this frat looking guy, 2-fisted-draft-beered, smoke hanging from his lip came busting through to the front. He eventually stopped next to me, holding his beers over his head, people scoffing at him, him basically saying "Fuck ya'll". So I thought, this guy is way out of line and he is expecting some shit from someone (and he looked like he had been through some shit in his day) and the way people are looking at him, some shit could happen soon. BAD KARMA! BAD KARMA! So I thought, well, this guy obviously loves the Jacket, so do I, so perhaps I have an in. Plus, this guy was pretty much controlling how everyone else felt, and I wasn't going to let him do that to me, so I excerted my power. SO I started to talk to him, like a real person, not like some ass who just busted up to the front. "You seen these guys?" "Fuck yeah" he said, "I don't listen to anything but My Morning Jacket". I could feel the tension lowering and we talked more. I broke out my ID to prove I was 41 cuz he did not believe me. He started talking about school, how he was a senior in college and failing out b/c he was drinking/smoking too much, he talked about not knowing what he wanted to do with his life, etc...and The Jacket just made him forget about all that shit. and in the middle of that crowd, with all that bad karma, it all turned around b/c I gave up my power; I could have been a dick to someone who was being a dick, but I chose not to, I decided to do something different. And in turn, he gave up his power of being a dick and shared some heavy shit with a total stranger. And after that, 1 or 2 people around him actually spkoe to him and the karma was back to better. Then the Jacket came on stage and blew our minds!!
Point? Instead of letting this guy dictate how I felt, I took back my power (b/c I let him take it from me) and empowered him enough (treated him like a person, like me) to where we had a meaningful conversation (well, for 2 total strangers in the middle of a crowd at a concert it was meaningful). The power was in the caring and figuring out a commanality (The Jacket).
That may be vague and it's late, and I will figure a better way to describe that situation some day, but fer now it will have to do.
And if that guy posts here, that's how I saw what went down.
word. :)
nice explanation. my brothers a bouncer, and has used that tactic more than strong arming people ,to defuse a volatile situation. keep the peace!
So today google has a little cartoon for Percival Lowell because it's his birthday. That's neat.
But it made me decide to write to google and ask them why they didn't do anything for International Women's Day. I know they don't have to or anything, I just thought I'd see if I got a response. I'll let you know.
And Tracy, I've been thinking a fair amount about what you've written about power. For some reason it's just the word that I'm not connecting with, and I'm wondering if you felt like defining it. I'm wondering if power is synonymous for self worth in this equation. I think I don't quite understand it.
I love women...have a happy day. ;D
QuoteAnd Tracy, I've been thinking a fair amount about what you've written about power. For some reason it's just the word that I'm not connecting with, and I'm wondering if you felt like defining it. I'm wondering if power is synonymous for self worth in this equation. I think I don't quite understand it.
Not to sound too relativistic, but where do you feel most powerful? (physically, doing what; mentally, thinking which way; emotionally, feeling what?). And where/when do you
least powerful?
Now, how do you compensate for those weak times? Or do you? Is part of your power accepting things you are powerless over? Do you try to change those things? How do you share your strengths with others?
People get their power from anywhere and everywhere. The trick is to figure out if you're excerting your power one place (example: gay bashing) b/c you feel less power in another place (failure to admit same sex attraction). Or, are you using your own strengths and power to your benefit? Some would say making millions is using power constructively, others say being a social worker and working with the poor is using your power constructively.
Tough call...
Great movie about power?
Amercian Beauty (there are hundreds of other great movies about power, but this one covers so many levels of
power, escpecially in the milieu of "ordinary folks").
I think I understand what you're saying, Tracy. It's the word power that I'm not understanding. I'm not sure why the word "power" is being used.
Okay, if I'm having an argument with someone, and I know that it's a "power" struggle, that I can understand. One person is feeling like the other person has more power, and they react to that, trying to regain their own. The various techniques to do so are either helpful or not helpful, but the struggle is the imbalance of "power".
But what I want to know is what does that mean? Does power boil down to self confidence? Because if you're a comfortable person, not much can phase you unless you're in situations of potential abuse. You can have an argument with somebody, but if you're cool with you, it rarely matters with they say to you. They can even think they have the "power", but that may not be the case.
(I'm only quoting power because I'm still not sure what it means.) Again, I get the premise of the techniques, it's the word that I struggle with. Because, as I think you've implied and I agree, the only way to have power is to get it yourself. You can help other people achieve their own, but you can't give it to them.
Anyhow, if I'm not making sense, let me know. It's the definition of power that is confusing me.
Thanks. :)
i think power is all subjective, just like anything else. it means what you want it to mean for yourself. thats just my opinion though. ;)
Let's not confuse powerful people with empowerment. I know a lot of powerful people without self-confidence; that's why they put themselves into powerful positions.
Let's take Bill Clinton. The most "powerful" man on the planet potentially compromises his presidency b/c some intern wants to give him a hummer (or 2). Now where in this man's life could he feel so powerless, so weak, that he puts the presidency on the line? I mean, if I have sex with an intern at work, I am done. Out. Finished. (Plus I would have broken a vow to my wife, but that's a whole other can of wormage). This could easily have happened to Clinton, but some part of his life had a void that needed to be filled, some void that being the president of the US could not fill. Catch my drift?
I like to think of power as strength. If Clinton could have admitted that his weakness was women (supplant the applicable Freud analogy about mommy/daddy and anuses here) then he could have avoided almost being impeached. Or perhaps he was not empowered enough to make such an admission. But, due to lack of self confidence (IMO), which he covered up with his intellect and drive, he nearly got impeached.
This is my opinion and it's been my experience that power drives us. We could discuss millions of analogies and what ifs, and buts and such, but that's hard to do in this format. I don't have the sole answer but I have given it a lot of thought.
Clear as mud now? ;)
hmm, i guess the huge piles of coke on his desk at the governor's mansion in arkansas never helped him to get empowered.
(the above statement is fact, verified by someone my family personally knows who did contracting work at said mansion.)
anyway, clinton is/was a dick, too. to keep with the subject here, i think clinton knew he was a very powerful man, the pres of the US knows that, no matter who he is. i think he empowered himself with the belief he thought hed get away with it, on every level. no trouble with his wife, certainly i dont think he ever thought that something as mundane as sex would have him considered for impeachment. he may have a weakness for women, that can easily be said, but my opinion is it was a personal misuse of misunderstanding of one's own power that led him to do it. of course, im not him, and thats only speculation and my opinion and take on his motives.
Quotehmm, i guess the huge piles of coke on his desk at the governor's mansion in arkansas never helped him to get empowered.
(the above statement is fact, verified by someone my family personally knows who did contracting work at said mansion.)
Well, to some extent, that finally explains where he developed some of his heart problems.
If Clinton didn't think he could get in trouble for having a sexual relationship with an intern then he would never have waved his finger at America and said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". As far as I know, having sexual relations with an intern is a pretty serious ethics violation. It's not the same as a co-worker.
Pretty sure he knew what he was doing and what the ramifications would be if caught; that's why he lied about it.
Now there is a certain grandiosity and narcissism for him to believe he would not get caught, but I truly feel he knew he was taking a risk.
I always wonder what would have happened if Lewinsky would have been a male intern. Wonder how Clinton would have been treated if that were the case...
Quote
I like to think of power as strength.
Okay, that's what I was looking for. I'll get to the Clinton/Lewinsky sidetrack in a sec.
So is power then an ethical thing? Are you powerful if you follow your code of ethics? Or maybe you're powerful if you think things through and decide to make (what you think is) the right decision? Is a good person a powerful person? Or, maybe the opposite is more true - a powerful person is a good person.
Man I keep getting a hint of what I'm driving at and then it escapes me before I have a chance to fully think it out. So bear with me here because I'm going to try and work it through.
It starts with debating. I have a really big problem with debating. Sorry, I mean that I know how to debate, but I don't like the form. It involves two people, each trying to win the debate (to tie things together, each trying to gain the "power" in the situation.) And it may not even be so that each person is working together to try and get to the bottom of the topic, instead, they're using techniques to try and disarm the other person with their oratorial skills. It's a rare debate (formal debate) where the other guy says "oh man, you know, you're absolutely right. I never thought of that." Instead, they will search their brainy bag of tricks for a way to manipulate the situation so that they seem right.
It's always bugged me. It teaches people how to win arguments and not how to listen to each other, and try to work together to figure out the right answer. I may have a certain sensitivity to it because an old boyfriend was a master debator and logical genius, and trying to have any kind of argument about any kind of issue was impossible because he would use his sneaky techniques and I wasn't skilled enough to follow my own through. And I find myself doing that sometimes, too. Not answering somebody's question directly because I don't know how, and instead saying something as assinine as "You'll change your mind when you're older -
believe me."
Back to power. The same can be said about power as I just said about debating. There are tricks that you can learn in order to either increase your power or to manipulate situations to your own favour. IF you don't really understand what power (or strength) is. So Bill Clinton (just to get even messier and throw that stuff in) manipulated his position of power in order to bang an intern.
Maybe It's entirely possible that Monica Lewinsky really wanted to suck him off. It's also entirely possible that she had ulterior (power) motives in the bargain, as well. Or maybe they were both so high on coke that neither could really make a good decision.
I also don't think Ms. Lewinsky was the first or the last woman that messed around with Bill Clinton.
And I think that ratsprayer was right when he brought subjectivity into this mix. If we follow your definition of power as being about strength, and then follow my lead to include ethics, then power does become subjective, as most peoples' ethical codes vary.
Oh I've dug such a hole for myself here. I really appreciate your humouring me on this Tracy, but it really is something I'm trying to sort out and understand.
I suppose the true wonderment is whether or not there are certain situations where you are powerless, and are unable to gain that power back. Is there always a way to get your power back?
If it's helpful, I'll use an example. And maybe this is a good thread to use this example. Let's say a woman is married to a man in a situation where the man has the freedom to exert any punishment he deems necessary upon the woman, be it violence or emotional abuse or both. That woman lives in a society where that kind of behaviour is condoned. She is basically powerless. Let's even make it harder - let's say she has tried to escape to another country, and was caught, and given back to her husband. What can a woman like that do in order to gain back her power?
(That's really hard. I'm not actually asking you to answer that question, it's kind of the extreme example of a case where somebody truly has no power aside from ending her life.)
Would that be a situation where it would be impossible for her to have any power?
i dont have the power to answer any of these questions.
:-/
hahahaha. :) that actually made me laugh really hard. :)
Not sure that woman in that position can do much. Like people being enslaved and what not, power is hard (if not impossible) to find. I feel that's where spirituality can lift up one to power.
And I do agree with Ratsprayer about subjectivity (but don't tell him I agree, I have a reputation to uphold). And ethics play in too. Did you see the movie Wallstreet? When Gordon Ghecko said, "Greed is good"? Well, to him, that was true. And to many Americans, being rich is "good" (though some won't admit it). It's the ones who try to make wealth and power fill some void in their life that I have an issue with (or a saddness). Because money cannot fill that void. It took me a long time to figure out that there are good rich people who do good things and generate wealth for communities. But see, I grew up with wealth and unhappiness, therefore, I projected my unhappiness onto other wealthy folks, thinking (beyond a doubt) that they were all miserable and unhappy; I have come to find out that some are, some aren't.
I would challenge you to think about what message you give yourself (subconsciously) when you lose a debate. Is this a familiar (old) message? Does this message come out in other parts of your life? Is their reality based in this message? And is their fear attatched to this message? I feel we are driven by power and fear. We try to have power over the things we fear and we fear what we do not have power over.
For some reason a Jeff Tweedy line comes to mind: All my lies are only wishes.
But Clinton? Does he get some from the intern if he is working at McDonalds? Well, of course it depends; if he is manager he has better odds than the fry guy. However, there are some McDonald's managers who are faithful to their wives and who feel like such a sexual escapade would not be in the best interest of their future, career wise or relationship wise. So there are less educated, less "driven" people making better moral and ethical decisions than rich, fat cats.
And the hard part of all of this is, SO WHAT?
And what about Hillary? Does she empower women by standing by her man through his sexual impropieties? Or does she know she can get to where she needs to go by hanging on to her man? Does it matter?
I once told a classroom of 40 women (I was the only male in my social work program) that women could be running the planet in 25 days if they abstained from sex (not just fornication, but stopping selling themselves to men as sexual objects) for 1 month. I got some grief, however, the professor later told me she agreed with me and some people just aren't able to hear the truth.
Talk about strength and power! Women have it and give it to men constantly. (now THAT'S a can of worms!) ;D
Iiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting, you are quite a sneak.
All right. I agree with you about spirituality being able to lift people up from horrible situations. I think that has a lot to do with hope. I don't know what it feels like to be in a situation like that, and I find it extremely difficult to think that a person could find hope there, but then some do, and you love them for being such heroes. There are many examples of people like that in history (stories from Nazi prison camps come to mind first), and I find those stories incredibly uplifting.
I also hear you on projection. I almost always question my initial reactions to things to see if what I'm really feeling is justified, or if it's coming from something else. And I think that's a good thing to do - especially if your reaction is a negative one.
As far as my personal issues with debate, I think I'm okay with it. What I do is as soon as I get the sense that I'm dealing with a cunning linguist (;)), as opposed to a partner in truth, I get really finicky about being specific and consistent, and try to contest any point that I feel is coming from a place of wanting to win, as opposed to a place of wanting to understand.
That's my favourite Jeff Tweedy line, by the way.
QuoteI feel we are driven by power and fear. We try to have power over the things we fear and we fear what we do not have power over.
This I am very interested in. I'm not sure I understand what form of power you're referring to - good power or bad power? (Self-fulfilling power or "Clinton" power?) Are we trying to overcome our fear, or do we try to destroy the thing we fear? Or are they the same? Or does it depend on what kind of person you're talking about? Does a person with a strong sense of self have fears?
That's a good question.
QuoteI once told a classroom of 40 women (I was the only male in my social work program) that women could be running the planet in 25 days if they abstained from sex (not just fornication, but stopping selling themselves to men as sexual objects) for 1 month. I got some grief, however, the professor later told me she agreed with me and some people just aren't able to hear the truth.
You are now officially the Tom Robbins of the My Morning Jacket message board. ;) I have thought that before, but it is confirmed.
hmmmmmmm. Well women did once rule the planet, and the sexual dynamic was in fact reversed. Obviously there are people in this world who are more enlightened than that, but it's an interesting point. It also means we have to stop thinking that way - using our sexuality as weapons of power. (I'm talking about humans here, not just women.) Although, I'm not sure it can be helped. I know that sometimes I don't even know the extent of my own incredible sexual power, and therefore don't know when I'm using it to get stuff.
har.
QuoteTalk about strength and power! Women have it and give it to men constantly.
That I'm not so sure about. How can you give power away to someone? Do you mean that they give up their own? Is power a system of weights and balances? Or do people work on their own individual scales? I tend to think of the latter.
I need to think about this a little more. It's very interesting, though. It also bothers me.
M,
I also have to add, and I'll use your words here, you'd probably have liked your old boyfriend better if he were more of a cunning linguist than a master debator...
this, of course, would make you seem him in a little more favorable light.
T
zing!
Aye, and yet it was in fact his cunning linguism that made me stay with him as long as I did...
p.s. bootsy collins is a WONDERFUL choice
Quote
I once told a classroom of 40 women (I was the only male in my social work program) that women could be running the planet in 25 days if they abstained from sex (not just fornication, but stopping selling themselves to men as sexual objects) for 1 month. I got some grief, however, the professor later told me she agreed with me and some people just aren't able to hear the truth.
That argument makes sense in a fantasy world where women are respected and treated as equals. Imagine the support and protection women and wives in many current patriarchal countries would receive from their archaic pro-male legal systems. What would stop men (the pig kind) from forcing sex on women like they've been doing for thousands of years? Why would this end?
QuoteAye, and yet it was in fact his cunning linguism that made me stay with him as long as I did...
hey, a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do
Quote
That argument makes sense in a fantasy world where women are respected and treated as equals. Imagine the support and protection women and wives in many current patriarchal countries would receive from their archaic pro-male legal systems. Men force sex on women every second in every way imaginable in this world. Why would this end?
It was just food for thought.
QuoteThat argument makes sense in a fantasy world where women are respected and treated as equals. Imagine the support and protection women and wives in many current patriarchal countries would receive from their archaic pro-male legal systems. Men force sex on women every second in every way imaginable in this world. Why would this end?
Tremendous point, Jaimoe.
I'm also not entirely convinced that, even in a fantasy world, that's the literal truth, however I understand the point. And yes, for sure, in our Western world.
all right, here's the simple yet cynical and somewhat dismal attitude i have...
a lot of people, maybe even most, whether they be men or women, suck in every way you can imagine. however, it just makes the good people out there look even better. ;D
I'm looking it as the world as a whole. I really don't know of any country that has total equality both legally and socially between men and women. There are native communties in both Canada and the US that are matriarchal. Other than that...
Imagine what would happen to women if they decided to band together into one giant socio-political sexual revolutionary movement in blatantly patriarchal societies found in the Middle East, Asia and East Asia (just using these regions as examples). Things would not go so well.
QuoteI'm looking it as the world as a whole. I really don't know of any country that has total equality both legally and socially between men and women. There are native communties in both Canada and the US that are matriarchal. Other than that...
Imagine what would happen to women if they decided to band together into one giant socio-political sexual revolutionary movement in blatantly patriarchal societies found in the Middle East, Asia and East Asia (just using these regions as examples). Things would not go so well.
again, it was just food for thought for a class of all women social workers in Nashville, Tennessee. Challenging some of the women that they think of themselves as something more than sexual objects for men.
That's all.
I got your gist ycartrob. It got me thinking, that's all. Your original sex comment was amusing and thought-provoking considering its original context.
so all of the posts yesterday about power & strength etc led me to have a little personal meditation on power (whilst on public transport, always the best place for a little personal introspection).
i did have a massively long spiel about humanity, politics and power to put here, but now that i have made peace with my inner-self and asserted my own personal power... i might just save it for another day! ;)
just one point though: (some) women may need to think of themselves as more than sexual objects for men, but (some) men need to learn not to objectify women... power is a two-way street
:)