(http://myspace-749.vo.llnwd.net/00234/94/74/234104749_l.jpg)
Is that including or excluding lincoln?
Lincoln appears to be exempt from said fucking.
QuoteLincoln appears to exempt from said fucking.
hes probably the worst one there, he shouldnt be exempt. i like the native american title for this landmark.... 'hill of the four thieves'
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hes probably the worst one there, he shouldnt be exempt.
Why?
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Why?
umm well he suspended habeaus corpus, for starters. also, if you think the civil war was fought because of slavery, i have some of saddams's and also irans' 'nookular' weapons to sell you. keep in mind, wars are never fought for the reason we're told. just a neutral question here, but are you one of the people who think he's one of the greatest presidents ever?
that's a fairly large statement without any explanation - give us your thoughts, sioux tribe.
Quotethat's a fairly large statement without any explanation - give us your thoughts, sioux tribe.
I took my first trip to South Dakota and The Black Hills (Mt Rushmore) about 4 years ago. It's the trip where I discovered At Dawn. The wide open plains and that wide open sound...I can't wait to get back there soon.
The beauty, quietness and stillness of that part of the country was breath taking. I could
feel the spirituality on our hikes. I'm not talking about Jesus, I'm talking about the American Indian. The vibe of American expansionism and the genocide of the American Indian was also prevelant, although not as strong (for me).
Not sure if that's where Sioux Tribe is coming from, but that's what I feel.
um, Lincoln saved the day. Might be the only Republican president I respect. What should have Lincoln done differently? The Civil War wasn't directly about slavery per se, but it certainly was a burning issue that lead to the secession of the states. Should we be two countries instead of one? I'm not so sure that would have been a good idea....
and SiouxTribe...please expound on your statement. I'm curious.
I feel like this thread might get going...
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umm well he suspended habeaus corpus, for starters. also, if you think the civil war was fought because of slavery, i have some of saddams's and also irans' 'nookular' weapons to sell you. keep in mind, wars are never fought for the reason we're told. just a neutral question here, but are you one of the people who think he's one of the greatest presidents ever?
Okay. For starters, know that I am pretty liberal, and not opposed to revisionist history. So I'm not rallying around the sacred memory of a president or anything. And as far as "one of the greatest presidents ever" - Well, it's not hard to be "one of the greatest" out of that group, now is it?
That said, Lincoln opposed slavery and ended it. He restored the union, and died because of it.
Say what you will about him, but I still don't understand why he is "one of the worst". I'm not trying to start an argument, but I really am curious.
QuotePosted by: ycartrob Posted on: Today at 11:04am
I feel like this thread might get going...
Yes, yes... This should get interesting. ;D
Just plain and simple, I am Native American, the badlands are my family's holy land. The U.S. practically eliminated us and our culture for their own. They then decide to go to our HOLY land and plant four of their leaders faces right there to laugh upon us.
Most people you might ask, "what do you think of Mount Rushmore?" they may respond "why thats a wonderful monument respresenting the greatness of our country, its liberty, its freedom and respecting our forefathers!"
Bullshit. They can all go to hell.
And yes I agree with Ycartrob about the plains, its a very powerful place, I felt much more in touch with myself and the energy around me. The fresh air, the scenery, the prarie dogs! Its good stuff!
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Okay. For starters, know that I am pretty liberal, and not opposed to revisionist history. So I'm not rallying around the sacred memory of a president or anything. And as far as "one of the greatest presidents ever" - Well, it's not hard to be "one of the greatest" out of that group, now is it?
That said, Lincoln opposed slavery and ended it. He restored the union, and died because of it.
Say what you will about him, but I still don't understand why he is "one of the worst". I'm not trying to start an argument, but I really am curious.
Didn't Lincoln free the slaves so he could pick up the black vote? I think back then it was still hovering around 5% for the republicans, like today.
QuoteDidn't Lincoln free the slaves so he could pick up the black vote? I think back then it was still hovering around 5% for the republicans, like today.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
i have nothing but the utmost respect for the native americans. in canada, they're called First Nations and for good reason (even though they're trated just as poorly.)
i know ratsprayer is going to jump on me for this, but i can't believe that the same people who mouth off about palestinian displacement and how they should get their land back (and i don't disagree) don't just die of shame that they are living on land stolen from the native americans. how many of those support giving native americans back their homeland? how many americans who talk about how immigration (legal and otherwise) is ruining the country remember that if their ancestors came on a boat at any point in history, then they are immigrants, too?
not too far from where i live now is a state park:
The Trail of Tears refers to the forced relocation of the Cherokee Native American tribe to the Western United States in 1838, which resulted in the deaths of an estimated 4,000 Cherokee Indians. In the Cherokee language, the event is called Nunna daul Isunyi—"the Trail Where We Cried."
Wellfleet you get 214002030400 bonus points.
(http://photos-498.facebook.com/n12/245/43/15611292/n15611292_30373498_6919.jpg)
who is that? i'm assuming its an early president?
That's Andrew Jackson, president from 1824-1832 (I think; feel free to doublecheck the dates).
Quotei have nothing but the utmost respect for the native americans. in canada, they're called First Nations and for good reason (even though they're trated just as poorly.)
i know ratsprayer is going to jump on me for this, but i can't believe that the same people who mouth off about palestinian displacement and how they should get their land back (and i don't disagree) don't just die of shame that they are living on land stolen from the native americans. how many of those support giving native americans back their homeland? how many americans who talk about how immigration (legal and otherwise) is ruining the country remember that if their ancestors came on a boat at any point in history, then they are immigrants, too?
no i wont jump on you for that. im the whitest person color-wise youll ever meet, but i have loads of native blood in my ancestry. actually most of my ancestors are melungeon, and they have a simliar story of displacement. read up if youd like, i just found out about all of it a few years ago. basically, we still have no idea where we came from (its true). melugeons were here in this country before jamestown was settled, and we always proclaimed ourselves to be portguese, but since we were dark and had no idea exactly who we were, we were treated less than native and blacks. its a very strong feeling still inside me, its probably the biggest reason i have such a chip on my shoulder, but it should help some of you to understand why im such an asshole and hate most things. our land was taken away over and over until we were forced in to the appalaichan mountains, the land no one wanted. its a big reason why i empathise so much with cultures who are decimated out of pure greed. im still doing research as to which natives my ancestors were, but i certainly understand and support all those who have passion for their heritage, no matter how dark it is.
Do natives pay taxes and get free education in the US? Also, are allowed to hunt and fish all year round without having to worry about poaching or limit laws? Canadian natives are entitled to all of those rights.
Also, when the fuck is the fucking American populous going to stop calling native Americans of the north Eskimos, meaning raw fish eaters? In Canada the peoples of the north call themselves Inuit, as does the rest of Canada.
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Didn't Lincoln free the slaves so he could pick up the black vote? I think back then it was still hovering around 5% for the republicans, like today.
Oh yeah... I think that's why he granted women suffrage, too.
...oh, wait. That's completely wrong. :-/
I think what we have here is people blaming specific people for what they symbolize, rather than who they were. As SiouxTribe knows, Jackson would be a much better president to blame. Or, if we're pointing fingers, we should go back to Columbus, Ponce de Leon, or de Soto before we get to American presidents.
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Also, when the fuck is the fucking American populous going to stop calling native Americans of the north Eskimos, meaning raw fish eaters? In Canada the peoples of the north call themselves Inuit, as does the rest of Canada.
Inuit is used in fucking America by us fucking Americans. And I hear American Indian much more than Native American, too. (Since no one is really native to this continent.
Then, that's good about the Inuit name being used in the US. It's about time.
QuoteDo natives pay taxes and get free education in the US? Also, are allowed to hunt and fish all year round without having to worry about poaching or limit laws? Canadian natives are entitled to all of those rights.
that's amazing! australia has a LONG way to go as far as recognising our native population - native title has only recently been "recognised" in the courts in several places, and that is the saddest thing... that we are only now (very slowly, and in most cases reluctantly) acknowledging that we (white australia) took the land away from the koori peoples, in doing so ripped from them their cultures, languages, identities, families etc etc etc
QuoteDo natives pay taxes and get free education in the US? Also, are allowed to hunt and fish all year round without having to worry about poaching or limit laws? Canadian natives are entitled to all of those rights.
Jaimoe... i don't know where you get your facts from, but i think you should check again. canadian First Nations get a tax exemption on SOME taxes, and only if they live on the reservation. can you imagine being told that in order to not get further screwed by your "government", you have to live on the rez?
there's a reason why suicide rates, as well as substance-abuse rates are so high among First Nations who live on reservations. they can be miserable, hopeless, depressing enclaves... there are children today who are paying for the abuse their parents suffered at the hands of the church, being snatched from their homes and forced to practice a religion they had no ties to, to live far away from their home and traditions and people...
Yeah, there are only a few of those 'tax' exemptions and im sure you have to live on the rez. most of this bonus shit natives are supposed to have is alot of bullshit if you ask me...always a loophole out there.
(http://www.geocities.com/cinemorgue2/garyfarmer1.jpg)
"Stupid Fucking white man."
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Jaimoe... i don't know where you get your facts from, but i think you should check again. canadian First Nations get a tax exemption on SOME taxes, and only if they live on the reservation. can you imagine being told that in order to not get further screwed by your "government", you have to live on the rez?
I get my facts from my two first cousins who are half Mohawk and carry a native card when they go shopping that exempts them from certain taxes,
And, of course I know about the native plight in Canada regarding substance abuse and suicide. It saddens and sickens me.
I know this is an old thread, but I always meant to put my two cents worth in. When I first read the post I was hesitant to reply because I didn't think I could properly articulate everything I wanted to say without allowing for some holes in my argument. However, tonight I thought of the subject and felt I needed to add something. I loved the post and picture that siouxtribe gave us. There's a great movie called "skins" that I saw a couple of years ago that takes place on the pine ridge indian reservation. That's the first thing I thought of when I saw this post. It's a great movie and it gives you a pretty good idea of what it's like to live on one of the indian reservations near this "national monument" and why the american indians might not be too pleased with this abomination that most americans consider a national treasure. I'd also recommend reading "Bury my heart at wounded Knee" or possibly "Black Elk Speaks" to further understand why this post was apropos. My son and I went to visit the pine ridge reservation a few summers back, and it was quite an experience. and it really clarified so much of what I'd only read in books for years on end. Sorry if I offended anyone, this has been a sensitive subject for me for quite some time. This post is not inteded to create animosity or contention. I"m pretty tired and ready for bed, hope what I said made a bit of sense.
I got your P.M Chris, and thanks for the feedback! Don't worry about offending any rightious 'Americans' and their precious monument, cause they are idiots.
I found out tonight I'm related to Red Cloud!! (as well as Crazy Horse by marriage, and still looking to see if Sitting Bull is in the mix)
(http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/images/redcloud.jpg)
my friend that is quite a lineage. When my son asks me if I have any heroes and who they are Crazy Horse is always at the top of my list. My father died when I was very young, and when I'm in a serious mindset I can always without fail claim that the two men I admire the most are my father and Crazy Horse. It's a shame that's he's not recognized as a national hero the same way people like Lincoln, etc. are. Take care.
chris