Let's hope that the current protests in Rangoon don't become a repeat what happened in 1998.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7011655.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1300003.stm
Question: If the Junta start attacking and killing what should we do? And when I say "we", I mean the rest of the world, not just the US. The US is a little busy right now so maybe somebody else can help out for a change? We, the US, seem to fuck this shit up all the time anyway right, so who's it gonna be? The UN will talk about it in meetings for several months while people die, but that's not really going to help much is it?
(Sorry, mini-rant.)
I certainly don't have the answers for these global problems, but please, discuss.....
QuoteQuestion: If the Junta start attacking and killing what should we do? And when I say "we", I mean the rest of the world, not just the US. The US is a little busy right now so maybe somebody else can help out for a change? We, the US, seem to fuck this shit up all the time anyway right, so who's it gonna be? The UN will talk about it in meetings for several months while people die, but that's not really going to help much is it?
(Sorry, mini-rant.)
I certainly don't have the answers for these global problems, but please, discuss.....
I respectfully disagree. Personally I think the US needs to spread out who it is helping. Sure, can't just abandon Iraq right this second, but remember how little we helped out Indonesia after the tsunami. If we spread our attention to people who
aren't threatening to kill us, maybe we can get some support here. Only focusing on our enemies isn't the answer.
QuoteQuestion: If the Junta start attacking and killing what should we do? And when I say "we", I mean the rest of the world, not just the US. The US is a little busy right now so maybe somebody else can help out for a change? We, the US, seem to fuck this shit up all the time anyway right, so who's it gonna be? The UN will talk about it in meetings for several months while people die, but that's not really going to help much is it?
(Sorry, mini-rant.)
I certainly don't have the answers for these global problems, but please, discuss.....
Let's see. In 1988 "we" did...nothing. Thousands of people are killed in various African locals yearly and "we" do...nothing. Ask yourself one question - they got any oil there in Burma? I believe you may be able to predict our response to even a mass slaying of monks based upon your response to that question. Combine that with our growing fear of China. I boldly predict that we do nothing even if they spray the crowds with gas and light a match.
QuoteLet's hope that the current protests in Rangoon don't become a repeat what happened in 1998.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7011655.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1300003.stm
Amen to that.
you know when bill clinton sent aid and relief to places like samalia (which has NO natural resources) he was attacked by liberals and conservatives alike. which is the reason he did not do anything about rwanda when he should have. he has since said that was his worst failure as president. unfortunately I think these days missions like that cannot happen because of the so-called "war on terror" and because of the same political pressure clinton faced. if bush moved into burma he would also be attacked by liberals and conservatives, we're already spread across the world, so chances are he's going to say fuck it.
I do find it humorous that the same people that say we have no right to intervene in any other countries' matters (i.e. iraq) are the same people who flaunt "save tibet" bumper stickers. What are we supposed to save them with bumper stickers and "good vibes"?
sorry, I usually don't post on the political threads.
*gets down off soapbox
I just wish we could learn from history a little bit here. I mean, they told me in 7th grade the reason we study history is to learn from it. This situation happens time and time again. We need to find a new approach, and I think the only thing that will work is if "we" as human beings, band together and create a worldwide peace keeping force that actually can get something done. Am I too naive to think this could happen?
Well we have the UN but they seem pretty helpless (useless?) in a lot of these kinds of situation, Rwanda for example.
QuoteWell we have the UN but they seem pretty helpless (useless?) in a lot of these kinds of situation, Rwanda for example.
That's exactly what I keep thinking about. They left them huddled together in one spot completely helpless in the middle of the night. Just left them there to be slaughtered. I'm sure their intentions were good, but once again the political bullshit keeps them from doing anything worthwhile.
QuoteI just wish we could learn from history a little bit here. I mean, they told me in 7th grade the reason we study history is to learn from it. This situation happens time and time again. We need to find a new approach, and I think the only thing that will work is if "we" as human beings, band together and create a worldwide peace keeping force that actually can get something done. Am I too naive to think this could happen?
No, this is our only real hope. We're going get to a point where one person or group of people can dominate everyone else without any input from the rest of the world. This is where pure capitalism and communism will take us. A world government with actual power is something that we really need more than anything.
Not to sound bombastic, but... ::)
QuoteQuoteI just wish we could learn from history a little bit here. I mean, they told me in 7th grade the reason we study history is to learn from it. This situation happens time and time again. We need to find a new approach, and I think the only thing that will work is if "we" as human beings, band together and create a worldwide peace keeping force that actually can get something done. Am I too naive to think this could happen?
No, this is our only real hope. We're going get to a point where one person or group of people can dominate everyone else without any input from the rest of the world. This is where pure capitalism and communism will take us. A world government with actual power is something that we really need more than anything.
Not to sound bombastic, but... ::)
anyone else think war is a better alternative?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070926/tpl-uk-myanmar-43a8d4f_2.html
YANGON (Reuters) - Troops and riot police took up positions outside at least six big activist monasteries in Yangon on Wednesday as Myanmar's junta tried to prevent monks leading new protest marches against military rule, witnesses said...
...There was no immediate word from the monks on whether they would risk their first major confrontation with the junta by trying to march again despite fears of a repetition of the bloody end to a 1988 uprising, primarily in the Sule Pagoda area.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7013638.stm
"Several thousand Burmese monks and other protesters have been marching in Rangoon despite a bloody crackdown by police. One death is reported."
Also thought this was an interesting remark:
Aung Naing Oo, a former student leader who was involved in the 1988 uprising and who now lives in exile in the UK, believes the junta cannot stop the protesters.
"Nobody knew what was happening in 1988," he told the Today programme on BBC Radio Four. "There was only very little information about the killings. Now with the internet and the whole world watching I think its a totally different story... monks are highly revered in the country."
Quote"Nobody knew what was happening in 1988," he told the Today programme on BBC Radio Four. "There was only very little information about the killings. Now with the internet and the whole world watching I think its a totally different story... monks are highly revered in the country."
Encouraging words but the Junta aren't about to change their stance or step down peacefully.
"UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown has called for a UN Security Council meeting on Burma within hours, with a view to sending an envoy to the country."
Looks like it's already too late?
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44138000/jpg/_44138993_burningap416.jpg)
QuoteQuote"Nobody knew what was happening in 1988," he told the Today programme on BBC Radio Four. "There was only very little information about the killings. Now with the internet and the whole world watching I think its a totally different story... monks are highly revered in the country."
Encouraging words but the Junta aren't about to change their stance or step down peacefully.
Yeah, to react with violence is their only option if they want to stay in power. Apparently the junta believes in the impotence of the international community. At least they have to hope no one will react. There is no alternative for them.
Anyway, could someone (Bowl Of Soup, I believed you mentioned it briefly) explain the role, if any, China plays in this all? They are still permanent members of the UN Security Council and an enormous economic power. Critics blamed them for their role in the whole Sudan case. Is something similar going on here?
Man, I don't have a clue :-/
Here you go Chills:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7011746.stm
QuoteHere you go Chills:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7011746.stm
Thanks DB, that was enlightening.
The China-Darfur situation and the China-Birma situation are indeed very similar. At least that's what I picked up from this article.
Quote
a UN Security Council meeting on Burma within hours, with a view to sending an envoy to the country."
Looks like it's already too late?
Exactly!
It sounds like from the article I read, all the monks really wanted was to have some talks with the junta about some sort of reform. Obviously the junta are too stubborn and now everyone will pay with lives.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7016608.stm
This is very sad. I loved visiting Burma, mostly for the people, but it's run by a bunch of scumbags.
The Shwedagon Paya is beautiful, and a real symbol of national pride for the Burmese on the street. It's really upsetting to think of violent scenes in and around the area. :(
Is it Burma or Myanmar? It's Myanmar now isn't it?
The unelected military regime changed the name to Myanmar (and the capital to Yangon) in the late 80s. Most of the democratic activists continue to refer to Burma and Rangoon.
The local TV station called BBC 'a sky of liars' on air.
This and Jena 6 has me just appalled.
As aniticipated, the world's response to the murder of monks, journalists, and innocent people begging for freedom has been swift, severe, and just. President Bush has proposed calling our massive build-up of liberators and humanitarian aid workers "Operation Unbreakable Indifference" and most other countries have joined in this great global coalition of distraction.
China's role? Wow, I don't think anyone has the time to listen to my take on that. Let's just say that they are fast becoming the world's greatest enabler of brutal totalitarian regimes and they will use the coming Olympics to announce to the world that they have arrived ala Germany 1936. Our time as the world's lone super-power has passed very quickly and our limited influence in Asia has virtually vanished. I predict Japan will soon repeal Article 9 of it's Constitution and begin building an offensive military and the ball will roll downhill from there. People don't realize just how big and capable the Japanese military allready is.
Enough from me.
QuoteAs aniticipated, the world's response to the murder of monks, journalists, and innocent people begging for freedom has been swift, severe, and just. President Bush has proposed calling our massive build-up of liberators and humanitarian aid workers "Operation Unbreakable Indifference" and most other countries have joined in this great global coalition of distraction.
China's role? Wow, I don't think anyone has the time to listen to my take on that. Let's just say that they are fast becoming the world's greatest enabler of brutal totalitarian regimes and they will use the coming Olympics to announce to the world that they have arrived ala Germany 1936. Our time as the world's lone super-power has passed very quickly and our limited influence in Asia has virtually vanished. I predict Japan will soon repeal Article 9 of it's Constitution and begin building an offensive military and the ball will roll downhill from there. People don't realize just how big and capable the Japanese military allready is.
Enough from me.
God, I
really hope the first para was sarcastic, or else, erm, I don't know what to say. Judging by the rest, I think it is...
With regard to China, I don't think anyone honestly believes that the West gives a toss what they do these days. They've beaten most of the "capitalist" countries at their own game (anyone here checked the trade deficit recently - and I include Europe as well as North America in this?), while flouting human rights and other UN rulings at whim. The Security Council seat pretty much makes them untouchable in this or any other regard. It was only really Israel who used to get to ignore the rules in the past, but now China's doing it and the SC have no control at all, as they are a member rather than just being sponsored by one.
I disagree totally with your take on Japan. There is no political stomach there for hardball foreign policy.
I find the whole Burma situation depressing. I don't want to go over the whole Iraq thing ad nauseam, but the post-factum reasons for invading were put down to deposing a dictator in the interests of international security. Putting aside the question as to why no-one seems interested in kicking Mugabe's arse (I mean, Africa's simply not important enough after managing to ignore Rwanda and Somalia), I find it hard to imagine a more sensitive part of the world in which to try and steer a path towards peace and stability.
SE Asia has historically been a Western foreign policy graveyard - surely we have an opportunity here to make a difference with little or no cost to ourselves? China won't back the Myanmar Junta if it affects Beijing 2008, and they (Myanmar) remain isolated within ASEAN, and would receive little or no support from their neighbours.
Rant over.
The first part was my poor attempt at satire - it's a fucking outrage. I just saw something on CNN.com that read something like "Burma disconnects internet" - let the real genocide begin!
We can agree to disagree on Japan and you would know better than me about the public Japanese stomach. When China begins to overtly act on its ambitions (Hello Taiwan, Ryukyu Islands, etc...), and that time is coming, Japan will injest a giant Tums as it comes to grips with the fact that the U.S. is no longer able or willing to tell China no.
QuoteThe first part was my poor attempt at satire - it's a fucking outrage. I just saw something on CNN.com that read something like "Burma disconnects internet" - let the real genocide begin!
We can agree to disagree on Japan and you would know better than me about the public Japanese stomach. When China begins to overtly act on its ambitions (Hello Taiwan, Ryukyu Islands, etc...), and that time is coming, Japan will injest a giant Tums as it comes to grips with the fact that the U.S. is no longer able or willing to tell China no.
Sorry - I misread your intentions in your original post. Sarcasm just gets lost on the interweb.
Burma's fucked, and has been for nearly 50 years. No-one comes out without a taint in this matter. If anyone really cared, it could be sorted with a minimum of fuss. Then again, the same is true about hunger, child mortality, AIDS...
I also agree with you on the Japan front when it comes to China. If the PRC moves on Taiwan, there'll have to be a reckoning. If the US don't, I imagine Japan will have to step in. I'm no Japanese expert, but my limited knowledge of their politics leads me to believe they would only act in extremis.
I suppose what makes me really sad is that the people who
could make a difference chose not to. Fuckwits.
I cannot even begin.....fucking makes my heart cry. On my way home after a long day, I heard a report on all things considered about how scientist are watching Burma with satalites to document villages that have been destroyed. Then they spoke with dignitary's from Australia in Burma. It is very scary to know that the Junta is surrounding many temples to keep the monks segregated (and we all know much more is going on).....
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14810464&ft=1&f=2
I was so deflated after listening to it....made my long day seem like a freaking tropical breeze. Then I rounded the corner to the most magnificent rainbow (full arch, with bright colors). That gave me pause.......
Prayers indeed for the people of Burma.......
as the monks were chanting...."loving kindness will win everytime...."
Lets hope that love does prevail and the world responds.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7019359.stm
"A United Nations special envoy, Ibrahim Gambari, is due to arrive in Burma within hours for urgent talks with the country's military leaders."
This is Insane!!
Monks Are Silenced, and for Now, Internet Is, Too
BANGKOK, Oct. 3 — It was about as simple and uncomplicated as shooting demonstrators in the streets. Embarrassed by smuggled video and photographs that showed their people rising up against them, the generals who run Myanmar simply switched off the Internet.
Until Friday television screens and newspapers abroad were flooded with scenes of tens of thousands of red-robed monks in the streets and of chaos and violence as the junta stamped out the biggest popular uprising there in two decades.
But then the images, text messages and postings stopped, shut down by generals who belatedly grasped the power of the Internet to jeopardize their crackdown.
"Finally they realized that this was their biggest enemy, and they took it down," said Aung Zaw, editor of an exile magazine based in Thailand called The Irrawaddy, whose Web site has been a leading source of information in recent weeks. The site has been attacked by a virus whose timing raises the possibility that the military government has a few skilled hackers in its ranks.
The efficiency of this latest, technological, crackdown raises the question whether the vaunted role of the Internet in undermining repression can stand up to a determined and ruthless government — or whether Myanmar, already isolated from the world, can ride out a prolonged shutdown more easily than most countries.
OpenNet Initiative, which tracks Internet censorship, has documented signs that in recent years several governments — including those of Belarus, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan — have closed off Internet access, or at least opposition Web sites, during periods preceding elections or times of intense protests.
The brief disruptions are known as "just in time" filtering, said Ronald J. Deibert of OpenNet. They are designed to quiet opponents while maintaining an appearance of technical difficulties, thus avoiding criticism from abroad.
In 2005, King Gyanendra of Nepal ousted the government and imposed a weeklong communications blackout. Facing massive protests, he ceded control in 2006.
Myanmar has just two Internet service providers, and shutting them down was not complicated, said David Mathieson, an expert on Myanmar with Human Rights Watch. Along with the Internet, the junta cut off most telephone access to the outside world. Soldiers on the streets confiscated cameras and video-recording cellphones.
"The crackdown on the media and on information flow is parallel to the physical crackdown," he said. "It seems they've done it quite effectively. Since Friday we've seen no new images come out."
In keeping with the country's self-imposed isolation over the past half-century, Myanmar's military seemed prepared to cut the country off from the virtual world just as it had from the world at large. Web access has not been restored, and there is no way to know if or when it might be.
At the same time, the junta turned to the oldest tactic of all to silence opposition: fear. Local journalists and people caught transmitting information or using cameras are being threatened and arrested, according to Burmese exile groups.
In a final, hurried telephone call, Mr. Aung Zaw said, one of his longtime sources said goodbye.
"We have done enough," he said the source told him. "We can no longer move around. It is over to you — we cannot do anything anymore. We are down. We are hunted by soldiers — we are down."
There are still images to come, Mr. Aung Zaw said, and as soon as he receives them and his Web site is back up, the world will see them.
But Mr. Mathieson said the country's dissidents were reverting to tactics of the past, smuggling images out through cellphones, breaking the files down for reassembly later.
It is not clear how much longer the generals can hold back the future. Technology is making it harder for dictators and juntas to draw a curtain of secrecy.
"There are always ways people find of getting information out, and authorities always have to struggle with them," said Mitchell Stephens, a professor of journalism at New York University and the author of "A History of News."
"There are fewer and fewer events that we don't have film images of: the world is filled with Zapruders," he said, referring to Abraham Zapruder, the onlooker who recorded the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963.
Before Friday's blackout, Myanmar's hit-and-run journalists were staging a virtuoso demonstration of the power of the Internet to outmaneuver a repressive government. A guerrilla army of citizen reporters was smuggling out pictures even as events were unfolding, and the world was watching.
"For those of us who study the history of communication technology, this is of equal importance to the telegraph, which was the first medium that separated communications and transportation," said Frank A. Moretti, executive director of the Center for New Media Teaching and Learning at Columbia University.
Since the protests began in mid-August, people have sent images and words through SMS text messages and e-mail and on daily blogs, according to some exile groups that received the messages. They have posted notices on Facebook, the social networking Web site. They have sent tiny messages on e-cards. They have updated the online encyclopedia Wikipedia.
They also used Internet versions of "pigeons" — the couriers that reporters used in the past to carry out film and reports — handing their material to embassies or nongovernment organizations with satellite connections.
Within hours, the images and reports were broadcast back into Myanmar by foreign radio and television stations, informing and connecting a public that hears only propaganda from its government.
These technological tricks may offer a model to people elsewhere who are trying to outwit repressive governments. But the generals' heavy-handed response is probably a less useful model.
Nations with larger economies and more ties to the outside world have more at stake. China, for one, could not consider cutting itself off as Myanmar has done, and so control of the Internet is an industry in itself.
"In China, it's massive," said Xiao Qiang, director of the China Internet Project and an adjunct professor at the graduate school of journalism at the University of California, Berkeley.
"There's surveillance and intimidation, there's legal regulation and there is commercial leverage to force private Internet companies to self-censor," he said. "And there is what we call the Great Firewall, which blocks hundreds of thousands of Web sites outside of China."
Yet for all its efforts, even China cannot entirely control the Internet, an easier task in a smaller country like Myanmar.
As technology makes everyone a potential reporter, the challenge in risky places like Myanmar will be accuracy, said Vincent Brossel, head of the Asian section of the press freedom organization Reporters Without Borders.
"Rumors are the worst enemy of independent journalism," he said. "Already we are hearing so many strange things. So if you have no flow of information and the spread of rumors in a country that is using propaganda — that's it. You are destroying the story, and day by day it goes down."
The technological advances on the streets of Myanmar are the latest in a long history of revolutions in the transmission of news — from the sailing ship to the telegraph to international telephone lines and the telex machine to computers and satellite telephones.
"Today every citizen is a war correspondent," said Phillip Knightley, author of "The First Casualty," a classic history of war reporting that starts with letters home from soldiers in Crimea in the 1850s and ends with the "living room war" in Vietnam in the 1970s, the first war that people could watch on television.
"Mobile phones with video of broadcast quality have made it possible for anyone to report a war," he said in an e-mail interview. "You just have to be there. No trouble getting a start: the broadcasters have been begging viewers to send their stuff."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/04/world/asia/04info.html?pagewanted=2&th&emc=th
The whole thing is still so shocking.
They didn't open fire & kill 1000s (although insiders believe far more died than the reported 10) but 1000s were arrested & the Junta are still now 'rounding up' the Monks & people they believe were the 'trouble causers'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7022437.stm
What will happen to these people in prison?
Possible good news today?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7028360.stm
I love that there's a law that bans gatherings of 5 or more people. I'd also love to see that "get out of jail free" pledge that the people are signing to get out of jail; my best guess: I (detainee name here) pledge that I am forever in debt to the great military leaders of Myanmar who, with great mercy in their hearts, decided not to kill me. I agree that should I act sassy again, I should be killed.