off the record.
I beg to differ here. I think it fuses, reggae, punk and rock and roll in a way I've not heard before. [smiley=rock.gif]
if i hear that song one more time...........that beginning riff is really starting to iritate my ears.
I hear your voice & respect you opinion but strongly disagree.
I love Off the Record & like the bands new direction.
Have you heard the version from the XFM session? Maybe you might like that better?
http://www.xfm.co.uk/article.asp?id=131850
i loved it on June 12th when i heard it for the first time, and as i sit here on Friday October 21st, i still love the hell out of that song.
Weird.
I can't listen to Z unless I have enough time to listen to it start to finish. Every song all the way through.
:)
i greatly enjoy this song and feel like i can definitely get CRUNK to it with that beat. :o
I was just messing around. Jim James and Co have produced another great record. Z is the one that's real.
I'm afraid I'm not! :-[
The critics in general seem to be raving about the first half of Z for its 'tightness' and succinctness, implying that the 2nd half is unfocused, unoriginal and directionless.
Well I guess I'll never make it as a critic, as, with the honourable exception of It Beats 4 U and, to a lesser extent Gideon, the last 3 tracks are IMHO light years better than the fashion conscious, overproduced and shallow stuff that preceeds them.
And, to further upset hardcore followers, It Beats 4 U is so synthetically produced on Z that it loses the emotional edge that would have survived Jim's old production techniques. The live version on Bonneroo 2004 is the standard by which this track should be judged and IMHO makes the Z version a major disappointment.
Dondante is one of the best things the guys have ever done. It is a monumental achievement, but I'm afraid (for me) Z is the album that has compromised Jim's musical integrity for the sake of commercial recognition. I don't blame Jim so much as the record company and John Leckie.
Mind you, I still think Z is up there in 4th place in the league table of MMJ full length albums. [smiley=wink2.gif]
The band picked thier label and thier producer so If you don't like the sound of the new record I don't think you can pin that on anyone but the band. Jim has mentioned that he wants each album to be different from the last and Z is quite a bit different. I think the production on "It Beats For You" is exceptional for the simple fact that it really ties the song into the album. I do however agree that the arrangement cuts down on the emotional edge of the song, I would like to hear "It Beats For You" with just the acoustic (not on the album, but a b-side or something).
i hear Z in three main parts
1.
wordless chorus
it beats 4 u
gideon
2.
wonderful man
off the record
into the woods
3.
the rest
in this context i think Off the Record meshes well, but when its singled out, i think it lacks any kind of emotion thats the bands trademark. its not a bad song by any means- just not as good as the majority of the catalog
thats one of the most brilliantly written songs on the album.
I don't hear one shallow moment on that record, and I feel like the songs are tremendously emotional. I also don't know what you mean about synthetic production, loper. I'm not trying to be all "MMJ can do no wrong", but I really don't know what you mean by that... Feel like explaining?
I'm currently writing a review of MMJ's recent Toronto show. One thing I mention in the review is that ' Z ' will either galvanize or polarize MMJ fans. This " Off The Record " thread seems to reinforce that thought.
At least half the songs on ' Z ' are a dramatic departure from their earlier sound. Some people will not like the clean production and musical experimentation of " Wordless Chorus " and " Off The Record ". I don't care for either song. I find them over-produced, however " Off The Record " is great live, thanks mainly to Jim James' ripping guitar solo - something the studio version desperately needed.
The more I listen to it, the more I like ' Z ', but the standout songs remain the ones that sound like they were produced by Jim James: " Dondante ", " Gideon ", " Lay Low ", " What A Wonderful Man ".
EC,
by 'synthetic' I mean that each track was put together from previously recorded cameos.
For instance, in the vodeo trailer for Z, we see Carl playing some guitar lines in isolation, with John Leckie recording them for 'sampling'later. The same with Jim recording vocals using different mikes. The use of computerised beats instead of 'real' instruments. I could go on!
To justify John Leckie's involvement he had to stamp his style on the album. The trouble is, producers today, thanks to modern technology, effectively create the finished product. The musicians are just part of the crew, called to give their input as and when it's needed.
What had made MMJ unique prior to Z was that their musical integrity was there for all to hear, the emotion in Jim's songwriting was transferred onto disc without compromise. It Still Moves was recorded like a live album and the playing is full of emotional verve. :)
QuoteEC,
by 'synthetic' I mean that each track was put together from previously recorded cameos.
For instance, in the vodeo trailer for Z, we see Carl playing some guitar lines in isolation, with John Leckie recording them for 'sampling'later. The same with Jim recording vocals using different mikes. The use of computerised beats instead of 'real' instruments. I could go on!
To justify John Leckie's involvement he had to stamp his style on the album. The trouble is, producers today, thanks to modern technology, effectively create the finished product. The musicians are just part of the crew, called to give their input as and when it's needed.
What had made MMJ unique prior to Z was that their musical integrity was there for all to hear, the emotion in Jim's songwriting was transferred onto disc without compromise. It Still Moves was recorded like a live album and the playing is full of emotional verve. :)
i totally agree with all of this. its not that i don't like Z or the "new direction," but i can't help but wonder if the album would've been better if it was recorded in the same raw style as It Still Moves. hearing this album live from beginning to end (philly 10/14) was a real blessing because it fuckin rocked.
Let me first say that I have zero problems with various opinions about the new album, etc. I myself love it, which is no surprise to just about anybody in the world who knows that I exist. I just want to respond to a couple of things:
Quoteby 'synthetic' I mean that each track was put together from previously recorded cameos.
I thought that the bulk of the layers were done, as they always have been, kind of live-ish - ie with everybody playing together. Bits and pieces were recorded separately, but that's always been the case. (ie the reason we have three or four Jims singing at the same time)
QuoteFor instance, in the vodeo trailer for Z, we see Carl playing some guitar lines in isolation, with John Leckie recording them for 'sampling'later. The same with Jim recording vocals using different mikes. The use of computerised beats instead of 'real' instruments. I could go on!
Jim recording vocals using different mics isn't synthetic. You have to try different mics in order to get the best sound. Computerized beatz is a choice. They were choosing to incorporate that into the music. I don't think that was John Leckie.
QuoteTo justify John Leckie's involvement he had to stamp his style on the album.
What's John Leckie's "style"? Everybody keeps talking about a couple of bands that he's produced for, but nobody's looking at all the other albums he's made. He's made some incredible records.
QuoteThe trouble is, producers today, thanks to modern technology, effectively create the finished product. The musicians are just part of the crew, called to give their input as and when it's needed.
Not true. Also, what is thanks to modern technology? Computers, you mean? I don't understand what you mean there. John and Jim share the producing credit. It's been pretty well documented that Jim is stubborn about his music stuff. I don't think we'll ever see the day where he just doesn't care and lets somebody else have full directorship.
QuoteWhat had made MMJ unique prior to Z was that their musical integrity was there for all to hear, the emotion in Jim's songwriting was transferred onto disc without compromise. It Still Moves was recorded like a live album and the playing is full of emotional verve.
Well, I guess we're going to disagree here. I think it's a pretty emotional album, perhaps even moreso than ISM.
Nice to debate witcha. :)
haha, yeah. it's a little thing called overdubs. We're obviously not listening to just one track of everybody, but getting a very thick and full sound. I mean, the guitar Carl is using in that clip is a baritone guitar to thicken up the sound, if i remember correctly.
And if i remember my conversations correctly (straight from the horses mouth, mind you) i think they tried to capture the songs in live takes first. I remember something, it might even be on that video, about them saying how nice it was to be able to all be in one room where they could see eachother and record together like that.
So don't knock em for "sampling." If you wanna kick down a band for that, just slice down Metallica for St. Anger.
Quote
hearing this album live from beginning to end (philly 10/14) was a real blessing because it fuckin rocked.
I've still been watching the trader's sites for this one. Does anyone even know if it was indeed taped?
thats funny. the production is what i love about this album over it still moves. i LOVE it still moves but i felt like it sounded like, well, it was recorded out at the farm on regular equipment. it just sounded like another locally created album. i thought that was wierd for a major label debut. sure, on a small label i can see just using your own equipment and stuff....but fucks sake, if ive got the big $ behind me i want a producer and the best studio i can find.
I love Off The Record. My second favorite "Z" song after Dondante. ;D
Quotethats funny. the production is what i love about this album over it still moves. i LOVE it still moves but i felt like it sounded like, well, it was recorded out at the farm on regular equipment. it just sounded like another locally created album. i thought that was wierd for a major label debut. sure, on a small label i can see just using your own equipment and stuff....but fucks sake, if ive got the big $ behind me i want a producer and the best studio i can find.
i loved the quality of the production on ISM because of the "regular" feel to it. its kinda stripped down and right in front of you. it sounds like they did it in my basement. not that Z isn't great in its own right- its just that i wonder what it would sound like if it was produced in the same way ISM was. Z kinda has a spacy quality to it, like they recorded it on a moonwalk.
See... that's the thing about ISM. While it is beautiful in some parts, I'd love to hear a re-recorded version of "Dancefloors".
As Eisey put it, it sounds like it was recorded while someone is trying to sleep in the next room. It could have been rocked out some more.
The same could be said for "mahgeetah". The ending of that album version is lacking in the rock section. While it has it's place, I prefer to have my face melted off by a live version any day.
http://collegetower.chattablogs.com/archives/024211.html
Tom talks a bit about recording the records. :)
I hope this makes sense:
U2 is on of my favorite bands; I am glad that Boy doesn't sound like The Joshua Tree doesn't sound like Achtung Baby...
I like Z, which doesn't sound like ISM which doesn't sound like At Dawn.
I am happy with my wife, my dogs, my job and my penis size. I think I'll have sloppy joe's tonight.
Life is good. ;D and I'll be seeing the Jacket in 28 hours.
God Bless America and God Bless rock and roll. [smiley=guitar.gif]
I'm really loving 'anytime' and 'lay low' right now, but having listened to this album so many times that every week it's a different set of songs. We were listening to Z in the hospital when my wife delivered our irst baby this past weekend - that's how much we love it! [smiley=bier.gif]
QuoteI'm really loving 'anytime' and 'lay low' right now, but having listened to this album so many times that every week it's a different set of songs. We were listening to Z in the hospital when my wife delivered our irst baby this past weekend - that's how much we love it! [smiley=bier.gif]
YES! (and congrats, too!) [smiley=rock.gif]
QuoteI hope this makes sense:
U2 is on of my favorite bands; I am glad that Boy doesn't sound like The Joshua Tree doesn't sound like Achtung Baby...
I like Z, which doesn't sound like ISM which doesn't sound like At Dawn.
I am happy with my wife, my dogs, my job and my penis size. I think I'll have sloppy joe's tonight.
Life is good. ;D and I'll be seeing the Jacket in 28 hours.
God Bless America and God Bless rock and roll. [smiley=guitar.gif]
Sure, but is your wife happy with your penis size? :-* I kid I kid. I know I'm happy with your penis size. You could just write "BIG PENIS" on the sign this time. ;D I'm really excited for you and your penis I wish I could join you guys tomorrow night. :'(
we'll all be thinking about you... ;)
Off the Record is better served live (Louisville 06/30) is good, as is It Beats For You (Live Bonnarro 2004). Come to think of it It beats for You is in my opinion the weakest song on the Bonnaroo set list. But is it the weakest song on Z? No! Into the Woods, What a wonderful Man and Wordless Chorus are worse.
Since Jan 2004 I purchased seven copies of It Still Moves for friends because I believed in that record and what MMJ was doing. Sadly I will not be purchasing Z other than the copy I presently own.
QuoteI hear your voice & respect you opinion but strongly disagree.
I love Off the Record & like the bands new direction.
Have you heard the version from the XFM session? Maybe you might like that better?
http://www.xfm.co.uk/article.asp?id=131850
i do.
salute 'off the record' acoustic.
Off the record is great after the 3 minute mark...
Which ironically got cut on the radio friendly version.
But I hate that Penny arcade lyric alot.....
QuoteOff the record is great after the 3 minute mark...
Which ironically got cut on the radio friendly version.
But I hate that Penny arcade lyric alot.....
i agree. theres a point in the song where it breaks into darker territory and escapes from the grips of that upbeat/reggae vibe. i like the ending but i would've liked to have heard more natural drums at the end- not the synth percussion. off the record in one of my least favorite tracks on the album. i think its dwarfed by 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, & 10
Why don't you guys make your own music the way YOU want to hear it played, instead of complaining how the Jacket could have done things better? Then, I can get off on your perfect, masterful, flawless, genius wonder songs!
I can't wait! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
QuoteWhy don't you guys make your own music the way YOU want to hear it played, instead of complaining how the Jacket could have done things better? Then, I can get off on your perfect, masterful, flawless, genius wonder songs!
I can't wait! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
i don't think anyone is complaining, blinky
i'm a better singer than Jim James
Quoteif i hear that song one more time...........that beginning riff is really starting to iritate my ears.
Quotei can't help but wonder if the album would've been better if it was recorded in the same raw style as It Still Moves
QuoteI hate that Penny arcade lyric alot.....
Quotei would've liked to have heard more natural drums at the end- not the synth percussion. off the record in one of my least favorite tracks on the album.
COMPLAIN: to voice discontent.
DISCONTENT: dissatisfaction.
My 11-year old nephew called his buddy blinky last week after the soccer game. We laughed. He scored 2 goals (1 with his left foot) Later, we got grape sno-cones and spit ice through straws. I love my nephew!
Quote
(http://www.angelaandira.com/images/llama%20corner.jpg)
Nice marmot.
I think the band had a pretty good idea that 'Off The Record' didn't quite fit in with the rest of the songs on this album. For instance...they did name it 'Off The Record.'
Get it??
regardless...i really like the song, and could care less how they decide to record each album. I imagine it could get pretty damn boring doing the same record over and over again. people will complain next time if their next one sounds 'underproduced'.
it's what they want you to hear...take it as it is and enjoy it.
Just as I thought :(
Dare criticise Z or anything about Z and you yourself will be criticised.
Some members of this forum would flourish in a police state :-*
Jim and the guys generally produce music that stretches musical boundaries, Off The Record and What A Wonderful Man don't do that. In fact they sound repetitious and could be the product of any number of bland bands.
DONDANTE is unique. It would be impossible for any other 'beat combo' to have created this work of genius and I'm sure that even the great Carlos Santana would be envious of the great tear up which is LAY LOW.
It astonishes me that in their defence of Z (for zealots?) 'they' argue that progress is essential and they can't keep making albums to the same old formula. Are they seriously saying that TF, AD and ISM are all the same ??? ??? ???
QuoteI think the band had a pretty good idea that 'Off The Record' didn't quite fit in with the rest of the songs on this album.
not to pull your quote out of context, but I woudl like to make a point out of it. I ain't railing on ya, but just saying somethign to everyone through your little quote. Just gettin that out of the way, and no hostility intended.
Ok, do you guys even listen to Zeppelin? Okay, remember III? How about IV, or Houses of the Holy? Remember how these albums sound? There's relatively little stylistic cohesion that happens in them, but as a whole, they become brilliant masterpieces. I won't put in Side 2 of Physical Graffiti unless I can finish it, because a lot of times the songs don't stand so much on themselves as they do as a whole, and when you appreciate them as a whole collective effort, you start to be able to appreciate them singularly.
So, just as Lay Low was "just pretty cool, I guess" at Bonnaroo, hearing it on the album, where it is on the album, followed by Knot Comes Loose and preceeded by Anytime, where it fits, and what it is. I mean good lord, the way the song just locks in at the end when all the harmonies come together and just lay it down. That's where this band is amazing, when they take something rather amazing and a bit chaotic and pull it together to that state of grandiosity where it sounds so frickin huge on five instruments and you realize what a beautiful statements been made with it.
Oh yeah, this is about Off the Record.
Remember Houses of the Holy? Remember D'Yer Mak'er? Ok. Preceded by the Crunge, followed by No Quarter. You may ask, "what the hell does this matter?" Remember how Zeppelin didn't really do singles? This one got sucked in. It's dance-able, likable, and just pretty kickin, and it basically gives the album two halves. I always saw the last three numbers on that album as a separate bit. To tell the truth, everythign on that album was it's own thing, but you know what? It was written by all the same people. That's what's beautiful about a band. If they want to make somehting they like, they damn well can. Regardless of who likes it.
After hearing Off the Record at Bonnaroo, then on the record, then at the other two shows I've been to this fall, I love it. The groove just rocks, its fun to move your head to, and then the bridge comes in and just knocks you on your ass. It's so accessible, and then the people who hear the single and get drawn will get the pop-iness of mmj and also the wierdness of them in one sing (a la backtracked baking instructions thanks to the one and only Two Tone Thomas).
Think about it, this song is great. So what if it's catchy. So what if people who don't "get it" enjoy it. It's not a crap song. It's a great one, and if a ton of people can like it, killer. And the cool thing is, you won't have to worry about the wrong people liking it for the wrong reasons. MTV is too elitist to pick up on these guys (and I think they just plain won't since they aren't marketable like Justin Timberlake is--unless Jim starts sportin bling) and you won't see em making ads any time soon.
And electric drum sets... why not?
I mean, get over it. Nobody likes every song. If you don't like this one, I'm sorry, you're missing out. But I think that, whether you like it or not, it's on the record regardless. Arguing on here ain't gonna do much about that fact.
QuoteSome members of this forum would flourish in a police state
but loper, you see, I have the right to love every song on the album and defend it. No one's going to be locked up for not liking every song off Z, and no one is going to be locked up for liking every song off Z.
I have just as much right to love every song off of Z as you have to criticize. It's about taste. It has nothing to do with the letter of the law.
Damn man, I have never been accused of wanting to live in a dictatorial state simply because I liked every song off of RUSH's Moving Pictures :-/
Give me my freedom loper! My freedom to freely and openly love the Jacket and defend their title as the best rock band in the world! Freedom!
FREEDOM!! Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Jacket
They are trampling out the sell outs where the grapes of wrath are stored,
They have unleashed the fateful lightening of the awesome rock guitar
Rock and Roll is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Rock and Roll is marching on.
I have seen the Jacket in the halls of a hundred circling fans
They have builded Rock an altar in the evening dews and damps
I have their righteous songs by the dim and flaring lamps
Rock and Roll is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Rock and Roll is marching on.
EVERYONE NOW! MEET ME AT THE QUAD AT NOON!!! [smiley=rock.gif] [smiley=rock.gif]
wow, great discussion! i never thought we'd be debating the greatness vs. the blandness of a particular SONG off of any album. but hey, debate away...
police state?! nah, we're more like a socialist paradise, with some religious zealtry thrown in for good taste... ;)
more like, if you dislike something about this band you are damnned. there is little room for arguing here.
nah, I see 3 pages of arguing and there's room for more argues.
are we arguing about arguing now?
ok, argue on, you guys are entertaining arguers.
Now you've done it, zycartrobz >:( :o
How dare you steal and bastardize my favourite football team's anthem [smiley=wink2.gif]
QuoteJim and the guys generally produce music that stretches musical boundaries, Off The Record and What A Wonderful Man don't do that. In fact they sound repetitious and could be the product of any number of bland bands.
Of course, I respect your right to voice your opinion & criticise but are you serious?
Off the Record doesn't stretch musical boundaries?!!
Help me out - please name some songs that sound like Off the Record cos I sure as hell haven't heard that many tripped out, guitar led pop/reggae tracks lately...
Let me know what bands are making songs that sound like & are as good as Off The Record cos I'll buy their CD tomorrow...
:)
I'd say Ashlee Simpson's new CD stretches musical boundaries...
QuoteI'd say Ashlee Simpson's new CD stretches musical boundaries...
any standout tracks? [smiley=smartass.gif]
(http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn63/locks.jpg)