........and I know the guys don't look back......but, personally I'd love a return to the I Needed It Most/At Dawn/If It Smashes Down/Nashville To Kentucky atmosphere. Those songs just seem so much more meaningful than say.....Anytime. But then again Lay Low totally blows my mind......don't mind me........just thinking out loud.
no, this is really good. the forum needs healthy debate on MMJ's merits. it's what makes it interesting! i think the band is in a very elastic place right now, they're bending and stretching to see what they as musicians enjoy playing and putting out there. i love their mellow acoustic stuff but i also like the balls-out rock and weirdness. it's like neil young... comes a time is incredible, but so is ragged glory and they're completely different. i guess it depends on your mood.
I can't wait until they do a reggae record. Or proto metal.
Or proto reggae metal disco.
Or shoegaze skronk low fi scuzz toilet rock.
I love Z...a lot...but have to put below the first 3 in my personal preference.That being said,I like the direction the band is going.....hoping they can continue to surprise us with different sounding albums.Jim seems to follow a muse similar to Neil...and that's a good thing.
I wish MTV or someone would bring back Unplugged...would love to see the Jacket do one of them.
that would imply MTV showing some music instead of laguna beach (over and over and over)... i miss when MTV2 showed the craziest videos all the time instead of nu-metal and rap... anyone know what Fuse is like?
i dont really understand how "Anytime" isn't meaningful, in my opinion it is among the most moving and meaningful songs MMJ have ever written, I mean it's about self-expression and the realization that in order to move on at any point in your life ypu must express yourself, and for the band and jim the music became that oulet. That's what Z is all about, going into the woods and finding yourself through art. It's also what At Dawn hinted at and It Still Moves was searching for. I think the line "things i could say to myself/i could never say to anyone else" is such a simple yet gorgeous line, it's among jim's best. "Anytime" is a classic song in the long line of classic MMJ songs about music and artistic expression.
Quote........and I know the guys don't look back......but, personally I'd love a return to the I Needed It Most/At Dawn/If It Smashes Down/Nashville To Kentucky atmosphere. Those songs just seem so much more meaningful than say.....Anytime. But then again Lay Low totally blows my mind......don't mind me........just thinking out loud.
I think I can relate to much of what you are stating here. I keep listening to Z under different circumstances hoping this will change and have been reluctant to write anything negative in case my feelings changed. They haven't yet.
Nearly all of the original compositions on the EPs, the first two albums and most of "It Still Moves" really transport me to a good place or make me feel SOMETHING. Experiencing those songs live or recorded there is an emotional response nearly every time.
This just has not happened with the Z songs and I have a few thoughts about why that is. Even though the songs appear to be about very weighty subject matter (apparently about life's journey, spiritual searches, strange entanglements and friends who have died, for starters) the music doesn't pack the emotional wallop the other songs have in spades.
Based on interviews that I have read, the band members would probably disagree with my assessment about the songs on Z. Obviously the closeness of the subject matter and the new recording experiences will color their views differently than the average listener. But the passion and genius for capturing emotional experiences in a tune and delivering it right to the deep recesses of one's soul just isn't there this time. At least not for me. The seeming ease with which MMJ has done this in the past probably spoiled me. But, This I Believe: there will be future MMJ tunes to rock my world after Z (props to Dan Gediman).
An odd thing about Z is that the lyrical hooks keep getting stuck in my consciousness and I find them hard to shake. Different ones, all day long. This never really occurred much on the previous releases, with the notable exception of me shouting out "waking up feeling good and l.i.i.i.m.m.m.ber" over and over all too frequently. I've guessed two explanations for this:
First, the earlier tunes just had an amalgamation of instruments/voice/inspiration that created its own aura. Which is why it is so easy to relate to The Way That He Sings from "At Dawn". Even if Jim didn't state this bluntly, listening to the song itself is experiencing it.
Secondly, on most of the previous songs I heard them over and over for months or even years without really knowing the lyrics because they were mostly unintelligible (by design?). It really isn't the words that he says, even though the lyrics turned out to be equally inspired as the sounds at times.
A hopeful thought is that the band is still releasing albums ten years from now and will have produced a half dozen that I think are better than the any of the first four. Now that would be AMAZING.
hey - i agreed that 'z' was far inferior to the other MMJ albums. UNTIL i heard them play some 'z' songs live at the fillmore. hearing and seeing those songs performed live really made it for me, and now i love 'z'.
can't wait til the dvd of the SF show come out...anyone know when?
Quotehey - i agreed that 'z' was far inferior to the other MMJ albums. UNTIL i heard them play some 'z' songs live at the fillmore. hearing and seeing those songs performed live really made it for me, and now i love 'z'.
Very interesting comment about your experience hearing the songs live. This is in light of the fact that I self-edited out comments I was going to make in my previous post (since it was so long already) about how I noticed the lack of emotional connection with the audience on the Z tunes at the last show I saw.
Obviously, this was contrary to your experience. But at the Palace show, I even gestured to my wife to look over the crowd during the Z songs and see how much less electricity there was amongst the fans compared to when the earlier material was being played.
Now the Louisville audiences are likely more familiar with older material than in other cities and that might explain it. But she readily concurred that the crowd in attendance that night was much more moved by the non-Z songs.
Anyway, that was our impression. The lucky ones in the first few rows might not have noticed it, but it was real obvious to us from way back in the theatre.
We all probably would agree that MMJ can really sell their songs live better than just about any other band. It's the opposite experience from most concerts, where the live music is a mere shadow of the studio concoction.
it could be that the lack of emotional connection you feel can be traced to where you are in your life now. like, maybe when you're 12 and hear OK Computer it means nothing to you but when you're 23 you understand it all of a sudden. I dunno, I don't know you obviously...
mmj are in their rubber band phase, they need to stretch and try stuff out. maybe in a month you'll go through something and Lay Low will mean a whole lot, or Knot Comes Loose... ya know?
you know, I was listening to Z today driving to work and I thought, I totally get this album.
That's what I love, b/c the boys just throw it out there, put down their feelings and words and art on tape and let it be. Either you get it or you don't.
I think it really is special to them that they make such a different record, and people "get it". I get it and it's cool if you don't get it.
as far as Z material zapping the electricity from the room, at The Palace, that's irrelevant.
The same thing happens at every live show (and I have 100 examples).
Last Friday night, Living Color played FUNNY VIBE and the crowd just sat there; but when they played the familiar CULT OF PERSONALITY, suddenly there was electricity.
Or when I saw Radiohead 2 years ago, every song off HAIL TO THE THIEF was met with a general apathy, but when they played the familiar CREEP, everyone went nuts.
And finally, I saw the Jacket in Knoxville in 04. They played WAR BEGUN with the most excellent improv add on and people seemed bored, but, of course, the "electrical" highlight was the familiar ONE BIG HOLIDAY.
The crowd's response means nothing more than familiarity.
I bet in 5 years, when they play ANYTIME, you'll feel the electricity more than you will from whatever songs they are playing from their newly released stuff.
Don't get me wrong.....I still LOVE Z alot......all I meant was some of the songs make their point in a less moving way........but that's actually a good thing, sometimes. I recently made an MMJ comp for an uninitiated friend......and I originally planned to put the most obviously emotional songs on it......but it can just get too heavy to hear all those in a row, so I threw in Lowdown, Easy Morning Rebel, Heartbreakin' Man and Lay Low to break it up some, and it worked out great. The scope of what Jim has done so far, musically, is just incredibly good......he's definitely wise beyond his years......and not even 30 yet.......amazing. Hopefully, there'll be tons more music for us to ponder over from these guys, for many years to come.
Quoteas far as Z material zapping the electricity from the room, at The Palace, that's irrelevant.
The same thing happens at every live show (and I have 100 examples).
Last Friday night, Living Color played FUNNY VIBE and the crowd just sat there; but when they played the familiar CULT OF PERSONALITY, suddenly there was electricity.
Or when I saw Radiohead 2 years ago, every song off HAIL TO THE THIEF was met with a general apathy, but when they played the familiar CREEP, everyone went nuts.
And finally, I saw the Jacket in Knoxville in 04. They played WAR BEGUN with the most excellent improv add on and people seemed bored, but, of course, the "electrical" highlight was the familiar ONE BIG HOLIDAY.
The crowd's response means nothing more than familiarity.
I bet in 5 years, when they play ANYTIME, you'll feel the electricity more than you will from whatever songs they are playing from their newly released stuff.
I agree with your point that familiarity with the tunes will stoke the audience as opposed to an unfamiliar song, but the Palace audience was adoring fans who just had a couple of months soaking up Z immediately prior to the show and I would bet more people there were unfamiliar with the older material than the Z tunes, so I don't know if it explains it in this instance.
Maybe our take on this was in error, or maybe the songs don't shake up the audience up as much some of their other songs. Both are possible explanations.
"Anytime" and "Gideon" seemed to excite folks the most. Make what you will of that, but they probably will be the two that are most fondly enjoyed by audiences five years from now.
Quote
I agree with your point that familiarity with the tunes will stoke the audience as opposed to an unfamiliar song, but the Palace audience was adoring fans who just had a couple of months soaking up Z immediately prior to the show and I would bet more people there were unfamiliar with the older material than the Z tunes, so I don't know if it explains it in this instance.
don't shake up the audience up as much some of their other songs. Both are possible explanations.
"Anytime" and "Gideon" seemed to excite folks the most. Make what you will of that, but they probably will be the two that are most fondly enjoyed by audiences five years from now.
and again, I can reference the Nashville show. They played I THINK I AM GOING TO HELL, off Tennessee Fire, their oldest released album, and most of the audience was not
electric as they were when they played GIDEON.
Unless you're playing to like 50 people, it's ALWAYS the popular songs that get the rise out of the folks.
I am sure the same happened to Led Zeppelin on their Physical Graffitti tour; everyone went nuts when they played FOUR STICKS or HEARTBREAKER but sort of sat there when they rolled out the odd and unfamiliar KASHMIR.
huh, is it all about this band's catalog or the audience? I'm not certain.
People are funny, they tend to react strangely to songs they haven't heard before....
Quote
and again, I can reference the Nashville show. They played I THINK I AM GOING TO HELL, off Tennessee Fire, their oldest released album, and most of the audience was not electric as they were when they played GIDEON.
Unless you're playing to like 50 people, it's ALWAYS the popular songs that get the rise out of the folks.
I am sure the same happened to Led Zeppelin on their Physical Graffitti tour; everyone went nuts when they played FOUR STICKS or HEARTBREAKER but sort of sat there when they rolled out the odd and unfamiliar KASHMIR.
One last stab at this:
We both are VERY, VERY familiar with their entire catalog of songs and we felt something more when we heard the non-Z tunes. It appeared to us that many of the people around us experienced the show the same way.
Guess we or the band, or both, are just in different life-stages now and can no longer relate to one another. It certainly couldn't have anything to do with the songs. :o :o :o
That's my opinion and my experience and why I agreed with the original post in this thread. Z could be so magical that it turns you into a toad, if that is your experience (Z magic potions and spell-neutralizers in stores now!)
(I've got Z playing over and over in my computer while at work again this morning. I like it and I listen to it a lot, but the music isn't as interesting or moving as their other stuff. Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way)
well, i won't say you MUST love Z, but maybe you need more time to let it grow on you. i'll use radiohead as a reference point again. when i first heard OK Computer, i hated it. i thought it was awful. all the squiggling and nonsense and weirdness and loopiness just rubbed me the wrong way. i hated that they didn't re-record The Bends, i hated their move from pretty straightforward alt.rock to spacey alt.rock. i really begrudged the band for the OK Computer experiment. it took me over a year of listening to the album and putting it down and picking it up again to realize the breathtaking awesomeness of this album.
and then it occured to the me that The Bends was associated to a part of my life that I held very dear. It was the soundtrack to my high-school experience, hockey games, basketball games, dates, parties... so maybe because you haven't had Z around enough to associate some feelings and events to the songs you don't feel emotionally tied to it yet. maybe something major is about to happen in your life, like a big promotion, a graduation, a birth, a (i hope not) death and that event will be tied to the time you listened to Z all the time. then you will hear Dondante and bawl like a baby. or you will hear Wordless Chorus and laugh and remember.
you don't need anybody's stamp of approval on your feelings, but i think it's completely normal to not like everything your favourite artist has put out.
neil young alienated so many fans with the stuff he did in the 80s. Landing on Water, Everybody's Rocking... when neil experimented in left field, he got ripped for it and fans really lost connection with his music. even Greendale pissed some people off even though it was his best record in years.
this is a good thread because this discussion is vital. i think if the band reads this they won't think "oh i can't believe this guy doesn't get us", they'll think, "how can we reach him?"
anyway :-*
Quote
One last stab at this:
We both are VERY, VERY familiar with their entire catalog of songs and we felt something more when we heard the non-Z tunes. It appeared to us that many of the people around us experienced the show the same way.
Guess we or the band, or both, are just in different life-stages now and can no longer relate to one another. It certainly couldn't have anything to do with the songs. :o :o :o
That's my opinion and my experience and why I agreed with the original post in this thread. Z could be so magical that it turns you into a toad, if that is your experience (Z magic potions and spell-neutralizers in stores now!)
(I've got Z playing over and over in my computer while at work again this morning. I like it and I listen to it a lot, but the music isn't as interesting or moving as their other stuff. Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way)
It's amazing to me how if you offer a different way to look at a situation, people quickly go to the "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way".
I swear.
All I am doing is challenging you to look at the big picture. That's all. I never said anyhting about MMJ being flawless or perfect or sacred, just challenging you to look at it differently, based on my own personal experiences.
Some of you come to this board with a chip on your shoulder, expecting everyone to defend MMJ to the death, and when you are challenged to think differently or look at something differently, you hit us this crap: "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way". I remember when Z first came out, and some guy had a bootleg computer version and said the keys sounded cheap. I asked him what he meant by cheap and pointed out some great songs in rock history with cheap sounding keys and he posted something very similiar to: "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way".
Holy shit man, what a cop out.
THINK.
and BigBang, with your logic (and please correct me if I am wrong, I am truly trying to understand you), MAGHEETAH is a more "moving" song than WAR BEGUN or...GOING TO HELL b/c the audience becomes more electric? Is that what you're saying? The merit of the song is based in the audiences reaction? Because those 2 songs get LESS of a reaction AND they are older songs.
I am truly trying to follow your logic, it just doesn't add up. I am reading your posts as posted, not reading anything into them, however, I really think you feel that you KNOW what I am trying to convey; and it's NOT that MMJ is "sacred and perfect" (and who really gives a fuck if I were to think that anyway? It doesn't matter).
Here's to the Jacket, continuing to make sub-par music for the masses... ;)
I think his comments were meant as sarcasm...about "seeing the light" per se.
QuoteI think his comments were meant as sarcasm...about "seeing the light" per se.
Who knows.
I'm just tired of people saying this, that or the other and when you challenge them to look at things differently, they say things like, "I knew I should never have come here and say anyhting bad about MMJ" or "they are untouchable" or "we worship everything they do".
I simply like their music and am trying to enlighten people that everything is not so black and white.
No biggie, no whoop-ta-do, no enchilada, no chupacabra...
(// http://www.mccrecords.com/Chupa-cristart.com2.jpg)
I must admit that I'm new to MMJ, but "It beats 4 u" is an amazing song and I can't get it out of my head or my cd player. The rest of Z is great as well (except for "Wonderful Man").....
QuoteI must admit that I'm new to MMJ, but "It beats 4 u" is an amazing song and I can't get it out of my head or my cd player. The rest of Z is great as well (except for "Wonderful Man").....
That is my least fav song on Z too..I love the lyrics...just not crazy bout the music.
Hey, no worries mates. I had a feeling the tag line at the end of my post "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way" might rile someone and debated throwing it out there. Hindsight: it detracts from everything else I have been trying to communicate.
Rob started the thread, alluding to the impression that Z is a less rewarding listen than the the other releases, and I concurred. "Z" is interesting, pretty, hook laden, well-crafted, displays far ranging influences, obviously a labor of love for the band, and it is better than many other albums being released in this day and age. But as Rob said about the previous releases "Those songs just seem so much more meaningful". And despite the weighty subject matter on Z, I agree with him.
Now, this is where I think I have failed to communicate my views clearly.
zycartrobz stated:
-- All I am doing is challenging you to look at the big picture. That's all. I never said anyhting about MMJ being flawless or perfect or sacred, just challenging you to look at it differently, based on my own personal experiences--
I cannot help but sigh to myself when reading that. My previous posts where about how I have listened to Z over and over in different contexts and it doesn't offer the same emotional rewards to me their other music does. So, in searching for a reason why, I have done exactly what you are stating here-- challenge myself and others to consider the music in the greater context of all that came before and ask why some or many people might find it a lesser experience than their other music.
I've even posited explanations and other folks have as well, including:
1) It could be that life/relationships/expectations/emotional state/musical tastes have changed to where we don't relate to the new sounds or even the band, or
2) Maybe the music on Z isn't as compelling as the rest of their catalog. (somewhere long ago I was on record that for the first time on any of their releases that there were a couple of tunes on ISM that lost that great punch to the head/heart/loins as well)
I voted for #2 but may change my mind at the next quorum. I realize that music can be appreciated for many reasons, intellectually as well as emotionally. Z can be admired for the sheer ambition on display. But giving props for the ambition doesn't mean I have to accept that Z is an unqualified success for meeting those high ambitions.
I thought I was challenging people to think outside the Forum fan box and look at the big picture, not be afraid to criticize Z. Same as you wished. We are just hearing and seeing things differently for whatever reason.
Finally, about the live shows. I just tried to point out that it did not appear to us that familiarity/un-familiarity completely explained what we witnessed. I think there was more to it-- See #2 above. I challenge you to consider it.
BigBang, you can love or hate Z, cool.
I was responding to your post where you gagued the quality of Z by the audiences reaction and I gave several reasons why that is to be expected from newer tunes or less familiar tunes.
I fucking cannot stand ZZ TOP's Sharp Dressed Man, would rather hear HEARD IT ON THE X, but if you were at a show, and watched the audience respond to both songs, you'd think Sharp Dressed Man was a more "compelling" song, using your logic.
Some people love HELP more than SGT PEPPER
Some people love BOY more than ACTHUNG BABY
Some people love ROCKS more than PUMP
Some people love SAUCERFUL OF SECRETS more than WISH YOU WERE HERE
Some people love LET IT BE more then TIM
Some people love TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT more than HARVEST MOON
Some people love TRES HOMBRES more than
ELIMINATOR
Some people love HERE COME THE WARM JETS more than MY LIFE IN THE BUSH OF GHOSTS
Some people love KILL 'EM ALL more than METALLICA (black album)
Some people love LIKE A VIRGIN more then RAY OF LIGHT
Some people love FLY BY NIGHT more than SIGNALS
Some people love AT DAWN more than Z
has very little to do with a crowd's reaction at a show...
That's all I got. :)
i think Z is what it is to mebecause i turned so many of my friends on to it through wordless chorus. every time i would walk in my friend's dorm room he would bust out the beginning bass line on his little piano that he's got in there. then we would all bust out and try and harmonize the ooh's. that song is my first semester in college. i can't listen to that song and not think about Jared Black or that room or just screwin around on dorm on a friday night. that whole album really.
and what a wonderful man frickin rocks. but if it doesn't rub you that way...well that just like...your opinion...man
honestly, i think that song requires a certain musical background, namely wanky late 70's classic rock, to truly enjoy it. I take it as a joke, and loved it before i knew it was written to be over the top. honestly, there's so much energy in it. it's sing along material from the get-go (evenif you can't hit any of the notes) aw look at me. i'm ramblin again...
This response is not meant to agitate you. I know we are quibbling over next to nothing. I know you know that as well ;D ;D ;D
But what we have here is a failure to communicate.
Exasperation with my inability to communicate this one little point compels me to type these words. I know I will likely regret it.
Here goes. No Harm Intended.
Ok, really, here goes:
Then don't consider it might be something other than or in addition to greater familiarity with some songs that caused the reaction I mentioned. Don't consider that it might be something intrinsic to the material itself. Think one track ( familiarity/crowd favorites have to be the reasons).
Rounding up all the usual suspects (as mentioned in this thread), I think differently about it than you do. I think there is more to it. Bluntly stated, I think most of the songs on Z are not as good as many of the earlier releases. I've been wrong about many things, and I might be about this. If we could travel five or ten years into the future we'd have the test of time to help answer this. Make a date to read the forum in 2013 and we'll open this thread up again and see where we are on the matter.
I hope we all can be there for that great debate and there are a dozen more Jacket releases to toss into the fray as well :) :) :)
I hope I used enough smileys :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-/ :-* :'(
BigBang writes: If we could travel five or ten years into the future we'd have the test of time to help answer this.
you mean, you haven't figured out time travel yet? poor soul...I have listened to the next 3 MMJ albums via my time machine; hang on! ;)
Merry Christmas
Quote
you mean, you haven't figured out time travel yet? poor soul...I have listened to the next 3 MMJ albums via my time machine; hang on! ;)
Merry Christmas
Which one of the next three is the most electrifying?
Yea, let's argue about which of the future albums is the best. Probably makes as much sense as going 'round in circles aout Z. ;D
the thing is that individual responses to music are so subjective. i think that people who tend to listen to music and enjoy it solely on an intellectual basis work at pitchfork. while sgt. pepper is *intellectually* more advanced lyrically and sonically, it doesn't engender the same emotional response as please please me. of course you can sing along to day in a life and when i'm sixty-four, but you will never convince me that people attach a bigger importance to those songs than to she loves you or i wanna hold your hand. i like please please me and hard day's night a million times more than i like let it be. and i ain't apologizing. this doesn't make me a musical idiot.
although familiarity and recognition do not equal proof of greatness, how "great" is a song or album that nobody but a handful of critics loved? the measure of *greatness* is the pure, unadulterated love. so although something can be good, or brilliant, it may not necessarily be great. and vice-versa. i think madonna's true blue is freakin' great, although it's not very musically accomplished. you can't put a number value on feeling.
i think maybe many people here may be afraid to incur the wrath of others by saying, hey, Z is really cool and all, but i'm just not feeling it in my gut. so i'll go second. the first time i heard it still moves, it was on my ipod as i was falling asleep. i fell into the sweetest, most delicious sleep and woke up loving the album. i would listen to it and cry. it really got to me.
when i first heard Z, i thought, oh, this album is sooooo cool, it's got so much swagger, it's so cock-rock at times without the stigma, but it didn't make me weepy with emotion. maybe it's just where i am emotionally. maybe not.
we can't all have the same reaction to the music. and the whys and hows are gonna vary for each of us.
Z is just the latest step in a long musical journey. It may not be their most moving record (even tho I did actually cry to It Beats For You upon the first couple listens), but it's a vital, necessary move. They worked with new members, an outside producer, proved they could edit themselves, and destroyed the Southern Rock tag. I'm sure they'll do tons of emotional material in the future.......can't wait for the next album........already.
Quote
and again, I can reference the Nashville show. They played I THINK I AM GOING TO HELL, off Tennessee Fire, their oldest released album, and most of the audience was not electric as they were when they played GIDEON.
Unless you're playing to like 50 people, it's ALWAYS the popular songs that get the rise out of the folks.
I am sure the same happened to Led Zeppelin on their Physical Graffitti tour; everyone went nuts when they played FOUR STICKS or HEARTBREAKER but sort of sat there when they rolled out the odd and unfamiliar KASHMIR.
I agree. Most of the folks there were not what you call
real fans. I overheard one girl and she had not ever heard one single album.
"real" and "unreal" fans..................??? maybe someone who loves the band took this chick to the concert and now she's a convert. maybe you bought tickets on a whim after reading about them. enjoying "off the record" more than "dondante" doesn't make you low-brow.... ;)
I don't know why so many people are beating themselves up on here because they don't find 'Z' as good as MMJ's previous albums ???
It's not your fault!!!!!!!!!!
Quotei dont really understand how "Anytime" isn't meaningful, in my opinion it is among the most moving and meaningful songs MMJ have ever written, I mean it's about self-expression and the realization that in order to move on at any point in your life ypu must express yourself, and for the band and jim the music became that oulet. That's what Z is all about, going into the woods and finding yourself through art. It's also what At Dawn hinted at and It Still Moves was searching for. I think the line "things i could say to myself/i could never say to anyone else" is such a simple yet gorgeous line, it's among jim's best. "Anytime" is a classic song in the long line of classic MMJ songs about music and artistic expression.
well said.
Could it be that some of you, who really enjoyed the last two albums, find the lyrics less personal, emotional, and even sincere in Z - because this latest album has so much more going on instrumentally?
I noticed that, while I absolutely love Z, I find myself feeling the emotions of the less busy songs on their younger albums.
Just a thought.
The crowd and its reaction to songs - this is an interesting debate... In judging on whether or not the masses enjoy an album, I wouldn't really take crowd response for a grain of salt.
I'm sure now, having been to three shows, that alot of people come to their concerts just to see one or two songs... and could give a hoot in hell for the rest of the songs played that night. Meanwhile, you've got the chickens who gather around the stage to chat all night long.
I'm using my experience at Roxy as an example, where a good mix of New and Old songs were played. I was standing front and center at the stage - and enjoyed every bit of it... A month later, I listened to a recording of the show, and was absolutely appauled at the level of clucking going on in the crowd throughout the entire show. It was like a fucking social event. The clucking seemed even worse during the older songs - but I attribute that to the fact that alot of Z songs are much more busy.
the talking drives me absolutely batnuts! there were some kids in dallas, right up front, who kept chatting during the quiet songs and during david dondero's set. two of them answered their cell phone. it's just so disrespectful, not just to the band, but to those of us who paid good money to hear the band, not the inane banter of an SMU freshman. if i were a musician and saw someone be so rude, i would stop the show, point that person out and tell the whole audience why i stopped or ask security to escort that person out. people do tend to talk more during songs they aren't as familiar with. but when they started talking during "Golden" i almost lost it.
Quoteif i were a musician and saw someone be so rude, i would stop the show, point that person out and tell the whole audience why i stopped or ask security to escort that person out.
I'm pretty Axl Rose tried something like that...
Wait, no, nevermind. Axl Rose drop kicked some guy in his audience because he had a camera.
ryan adams stopped his set and jawed at some guy who kept shouting out sing requests. adams was like, dude, you know, we have a setlist. the guy wouldn't stop yammering so adams challenged him to come on stage and say it to his face. the guy got quiet in a hurry... people were getting upset at the disruption. no need to resort to violence, just out the obnoxious ones and the crowd will do the rest.
Quoteryan adams stopped his set and jawed at some guy who kept shouting out sing requests. adams was like, dude, you know, we have a setlist. the guy wouldn't stop yammering so adams challenged him to come on stage and say it to his face. the guy got quiet in a hurry... people were getting upset at the disruption. no need to resort to violence, just out the obnoxious ones and the crowd will do the rest.
I saw Ryan Adams at The Ryman in Nashville. The major disruption was the drunk asshole on stage who insisted on rambling, reading poetry, looking for his wine bottle, playing 2 songs on a record (2) while posing like a rock star (2 entire songs; 1 by Minor Threat and 1 by Madonna), having the house lights turned up b/c some guy yelled SUMMER OF 69 about 69 times, paying the guy to leave, singing an entire song like the Cookie Monster. He lost about half the audience by the time the encore came around.
A nice 1 hour 45 minute set, with about 1 hour of music.
Train wreck.
wellllll....... i know how much you LOVE to argue with me, so....
i saw a show on the Cold Roses tour, with the Cardinals, and he was the epitome of charm and grace. told stories, joked around, did drink and smoke a lot but maybe that's just rock n roll.
i think the Cardinals mellowed him out a bit. anyway, i'm a big fan of his music. i know there's a pretty severe love-hate relationship on this forum for him but to each his own.
I love his music too...I wish he would have played some of it.
You go to a concert to see someone play their music.
People shouldn't be scratching their heads after a show...
Train wreck.
It's rare to find a band that reinvents itself each time out.
To me it's what makes a truly great band.
Only true artists come up with new stuff all the time instead of just putting a slightly different spin on the same crap.
"We are the innovators. They are the imitators."
Also, a new revelation of mine about MMJ. Once at a show, and twice listining to an album, they have actually made me cry. I am a 32 year old grown man, and I didn't even know what Jim was talking about. It didn't matter, tears came pouring out from deep down. How is this possible?
Oh and by the way, Off the Record might start out kind of "poppy" but no pop song ever jammed like that over the last two minutes.
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Also, a new revelation of mine about MMJ. Once at a show, and twice listining to an album, they have actually made me cry. I am a 32 year old grown man, and I didn't even know what Jim was talking about. It didn't matter, tears came pouring out from deep down. How is this possible?
im a 26 year old grown man, and ive had it happen more than once with different bands. some musicians just seem to tap in to a universal emotional energy, or maybe a specific one thats important to you.
i cant explain it really. theres a song on the newest okkervil river cd called black, and its about someone who was molested as a child. that never happened to me, but man i listen to it and can start bawling like its being sung about me. just a weird thing about certain songs, albums, bands, etc.
mmj-wise, steam engine has done it to me more than once.
I'm a 41 1/2 year old child, devolving into a puddle of grey and coffee, and I must concur with the last 2 posts.
MMJ reminds me of how I felt when I was much older, when I was 12 or so, the first time I really got Zeppelin or the Stones, etc...
What I don't like about this thread is the notion that if you defend Z, then you're some brainwashed loyalist who'd promote the Jacket if they recorded themselves singing Ashley Simpson songs after inhaling helium (that actually sounds pretty cool...).
Anyway, like I am some dip shit who has to defend my favorite band. Look, I have jumped ship on many bands that didn't appeal to me anymore (ie ZZ Top when they did all that "Gimme All Your Loving" crap). Hey, I can admit that a couple of RUSH albums suck (I said a couple). I also have stayed with bands that were bold enough to change direction (U2, Radiohead, the Beatles...)
And I love Z! I love to play Z L O U D!! Louder than ISM, mainly b/c (I'll try to quote Tom E here) "They recorded ISM as if they were trying not to wake up the Quaids".
It's like, you're telling me what I like and why I like it and why I should like something else more? Excuse me please, let me clear my throat:
* fuck off *
So I can love Z and not be defending the band folks. And you can love the earlier albums better, it's cool. And if the Jacket doesn't do it for you anymore, please choose a side, port or starboard, and adios.
And for those of you who are convinced that we're all brain-washed-love-everything-the-Jacket-puts-out-mindless-retard-Z-lovin'-bitches, how about you go to a Blink 182 message board and convince those guys that their favorite band's last record (and all the one's before it) sucked.
Good luck.
It's just music folks; pure and simple. Raw emotion. We all got it and sometimes Barry Manilow just don't get me there (like he used to).
Peace....
out.
i agree that you can still be a MMJ fan and NOT love Z as much as their earlier stuff. BUT, before you write the album off entirely, i urge you to hear it live. the MMJ discs are all fanfuckingtastic, but their live shows are some of the best i've ever seen.
i know some of the posts on here said that the Z songs during the show didn't spark any emotional reaction from the crowd, and my theory on that is -
1: alot of the folks at the show hadn't listened to Z for long enough to really "sing along" and we all know people that just like to "sing along" because they know a song.
2: due to the nature of the album (Z), i would say that there are more mellow songs vs. all out best rock and jam songs ever (like their earlier stuff), which of course really gets the crowd riled up.
my 2cents, from a 31 year old girl :)
On the topic of grown men crying...
I don't cry at funerals, I didn't cry when I had to put my cat to sleep, I didn't cry when my girlfriend of 2 years cheated on me... But At Dawn got me.
"All your life is obscene!"
Damn.
Back on topic - I suppose my previously stated theory on why people aren't "feeling" Z doesn't apply to the folks here... Dang, I thought I had something there.
Cry babies, cry babies suck your thumb... ;D
I didn't even know this was possible. But ever since I've been hooked, I've shed a tear or ten.
"you're a criminal who never breaks the law"
that line just kills me because i feel it's calling me out and i don't even know why.
i cry when my team wins the Stanley Cup, sometimes at the Olympics, sometimes while watching Animal Precinct on Animal Planet, but always when i hear "be right here forever, go through this thing together"...
it's something about twangy steel guitar, reverb, jim's sweet-ass voice... like neil young's voice on buffalo springfield's "expecting to fly"... if you don't feel moved by that, you're just not alive.
I love MMJ and I do think everything they do kicks ass and will continue to. I love Z, I love ISM more. I don't need anyone's fucking permission to feel that way. I don't need some asshole giving a review of my ( or anyone's) reaction to their live show. Worry about yourself and enjoy the music that is given to us by the band that can do no wrong.
Really.
I wasn't there when Dylan went electric, but it must have been like when the Jacket went all Z and stuff!
another hot n' sticky topic courtesy of the creative minds of MMJ!
Quotei agree that you can still be a MMJ fan and NOT love Z as much as their earlier stuff. BUT, before you write the album off entirely, i urge you to hear it live.
Oh We'd love to hear it live but that's a whole other thread......................................... ;)
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mmj-wise, steam engine has done it to me more than once.
Yep, that's the one that did it to me at the only show I've been lucky enough to attend. I started feeling it coming on and I was helpless to stop it. It was kind of weird but felt really good at the same time. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one.
(Imagine if Dick Vermeil went to an MMJ show. Wow.)
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(Imagine if Dick Vermeil went to an MMJ show. Wow.)
nice :)
I don't think anyone's spun Z enough to "feel it" like the previous records. Maybe I'm wrong.
It's a great album and it turns my crank, that's for sure. I've got it on permanent repeat both in the car and at work. Nothing rocks me now like "Gideon" does coming over the hill in the morning....
QuoteI don't think anyone's spun Z enough to "feel it" like the previous records. Maybe I'm wrong.
It's a great album and it turns my crank, that's for sure. I've got it on permanent repeat both in the car and at work. Nothing rocks me now like "Gideon" does coming over the hill in the morning....
Man alive. I put it on for a long walk today, and it made me want to run. Fuck it's good. Jaysus.
gotta love a bit of contentious discussion!! i always find it interesting hearing people's reactions to different albums by an artist, re: artistic development, whether or not (& how) the music touched them etc etc. that is one of the things that i really enjoy about music. and one of the things that i really enjoy about music like mmj - non-manufactured crap (not intending to tread on anyone's toes here, but boyband/girlband/britney kind of stuff is really not my cup of tea) - you will always get variations and differences in the music as the band are never in the same situation in their lives when recording a new album as they were in past albums. actually, that said, i guess even britney has probably changed a bit! (you can all decide for yourselves if this is good or bad ) everyone grows and changes. what you like / don't like changes. i used to love U2 (earlish U2 - joshua tree, unforgettable fire which i still do love) but i find i just don't relate to their latest couple of albums. they still have a place in my heart (along with all the other bands i was obsessing over when i was 13), they just don't do it for me like the others did.
anyway.... i've kind of come into the mmj story from the other end - z was the first album i'd heard, so it will always be special to me for that reason (first-heard albums always are), but the more i listen to at dawn, tennessee fire & it still moves, i'm getting to love them more too. each albums gets to me in different way. i love the fact that there is change & growth and experimentation.
as the man said - love a song for the way it makes you feel. that's all. if it makes your cry, great. music is EMOTION.
sorry for the majorly long post... ;D
QuoteI don't think anyone's spun Z enough to "feel it"
I'm definitely feelin' it way down in the roots of my scrotum when the opening bass line of "Wordless Chorus" booms forth from my woofers or when "Lay Low", "Anytime", and "Wonderful Man" rattle the windows in my house ;)
MMJ is pretty much new to me (I had only gotten to listen to At Dawn a half dozen or so times when checked out from the library), so I can't really judge Z against the previous stuff. But Z is the best record (well... cd) I heard in 2005, so I'd have to say it merits all of the fuss.
While this one hasn't had the benefit of being our friend for several years yet... time will tell.
My bet is that five years from now, when MMJ's 2010 release is the hot topic, we'll all be comparing that one's validity/quality to Z.