My Morning Jacket

No more four years of tirrany.  :-[

I know everything is still possible, but Ohio seems like chosing for bush.  Another four years of unsafety, terror, more money for the rich, less for the poor, stupid bushisms, a bigger deficit, more unemployment, more stupid expressions on foreing politics, less rights for colored people, unilateralism, unstable Iraq, ... You name it, he's got it.

Wake up AMERICA!

Yeah, John Kerry was going to fix all those things.  

Once again, intellect and reason have been vanquished by the hands of fear and closed-mindedness. at least he actually won this time around...

Can't quite believe it.

I've suspected it for a while, but still can't believe it.

Yeah....a little tough to understand but we have to move on and hope that George doesn't get too crazy.  He knows he can't be elected again and that always is a touch scary.  Hope that he doesn't get on the "I will be remembered as one the greatest presidents of all time" campaign and make some really bad decisions.  

D.

QuoteNo more four years of tirrany.  :-[

I know everything is still possible, but Ohio seems like chosing for bush.  Another four years of unsafety, terror, more money for the rich, less for the poor, stupid bushisms, a bigger deficit, more unemployment, more stupid expressions on foreing politics, less rights for colored people, unilateralism, unstable Iraq, ... You name it, he's got it.

Wake up AMERICA!

Bit extreme with your analysis there chief... Tyranny?  I think not.  We are far from the uncivilized ways of 3rd world countries and banana republics.  This country offers the greatest array of choices for people to achieve whatever level of personal success--all you have to do is try a little.  Unfortunately, too many corporations have taken advantage of cheap labor, both overseas and streaming illegally over our southern border, to fatten their bottom lines which hurts all hard working Americans.  I have a feeling that the latter sitution is about to experince a rude awakening--now that President Bush is in his last term you can almost bet the Mexican border will close up tighter than a virgin's honeypot.  Then again, who knows for sure...

Quote
We are far from the uncivilized ways of 3rd world countries and banana republics.

I wish.  It's hard to distance ourselves from those "uncivilized ways"  when we had a had in installing most of those regimes.  Ever ask yourself why they're called "banana republics"?

The myth in any discussion is that Kerry was going to solve all the things you people complain about- and that's why he lost.  People came out in droves to vote out Bush (presumably) but Kerry ultimately failed to convince enough people that he really was going to make changes, and not just offer lip service.  I agree with Kerry on a lot of political issues, but his increased funding of No Child Left Behind, and univeral health care sound great but need to be funded some way (of which he didn't offer clear solutions).  He would have done absolutely nothing differently that Bush would have in Iraq (which probably would have made him a one termer anyway), and his foreign policy calls for allies to help us with things they're interested in buying.  Kerry is supposedly against the war, despite his voting for it, but thinks our allies should help more?  Somewhat contradictory...

Fuck this, I'm going to listen to Steam Engine! :)

Quote

had a hand in installing most of those regimes.  

this may be true but typically this is performed in the spirit of helping a community in chaos attempt to restore a structure that will help provide them a beneficial society.  unfortunately, you can't predict how power is going to affect any given person--sometimes it goes ok and sometimes it goes very badly.  maybe we need to back away from so much nation building, but we also need to be careful about our interests and friends worldwide.

Hello...sorry, but lfish did you vote? Why don't you go and powertab an MMJ song, don't worry I won't be able to open the gdamn thing. Yeah, I'm puttin' on Steam Engine.  ;D

yay bush...yay ohio!  ( I live there )

I'm not getting in any political fights with anyone.  However you should know I am well informed and I can make my own decisions.

This debate is pointless.  And please stop with the "banana republics" nonsense.  That's just plain offensive.

QuoteBit extreme with your analysis there chief... Tyranny?

Indeed a little bit extreme (sorry for that), but yesterday I was a little bit down when I heard Kerry lost.  Nevertheless, that changes nothing on the fact that I consider Mr bush as a complete dumbass.  

He's really a nice guy to talk with, he knows how to handle/please a big crowd, he has charism, no doubt about that, but if you look at the stage where he's the main player, it's sad.  

It's like woody allen put it:

"If you observe him, it's quite amusing, if you listen to him as he speaks, if you follow him closely it would provide you a great many laughs. But it's the perfect example of islands of comedy, comic moments against a very, very tragic background,"

QuoteThis debate is pointless.  And please stop with the "banana republics" nonsense.  That's just plain offensive.

No debate here, just silly taunting.  

As far as banana republics, I will forget all about history and the United Fruit Company.

And for you Bushies, I am leaving behind my doubting ways.  It is time, once again for the U.S. to speak with one voice.  I'm a uniter not a divider.  The people have spoken, and we hate gays and love the Lord Jesus Christ.  We will exploit the environment (for we have dominion over it) and the work force of other countries.  We will ignore international law because we are the shining city on the hill and we must share our light of freedom with the world.

Ra!Ra!Ra!

Hey,

Maybe it's difficult if you're really against Bush, but we have to be optimistic and spare ourselves the little hope that everything will turn out fine.  It's indeed important for america that politicians and people try to do efforts to unite the country instead of dividing it.  

As we all know, Bush is not the only person pulling the strings.  He is the president, but he fits in a broader picture, called the presidency, where he has to deal with different powers, strenghts, weaknesses, opportunities,...  So not really a one man show, but cooperation with congress,senate, government and civil society;  Let's hope he makes some appeasing changes in his new government.  Goodbye Rummie!


Ps I did not vote as I am not american
Ps Powertabs just works fine by me and many other guys.  Have another try, you never know...

QuoteThis debate is pointless.  And please stop with the "banana republics" nonsense.  That's just plain offensive.

It's not really a debate, though, is it? It's just people expressing their opinion about a mementous event - and it's momentous for those of us who couldn't vote as well as for those who could. GWB is the most powerful man in the world that we all live in.

I'm sad to say that SmoothOprtr could be right. Maybe nothing would have changed anyway.

And John, most of what we write on this entire forum is pointless. Lets hear it for pointlessness  ;)

Where's your point? explain?  ;)

there are attitudes expressed in this thread that are prime examples why Republicans have won so many of the recent elections.  not only was President Bush re-elected but the Republicans have increased in Washington too.  maybe the dems, as individuals and collectively, can use the next 3-3.5 years to take a long hard look at themselves and how they need to approach Americans.  I am happy with the results but am not gloating because if there was a viable, believable democrat I might have considered them--beinga registered independent.  sorry if I got carried away reacting to the tyranny statement but I am not one to sit back and let others bash my country, the greatest in the world.  peace all lets work to make the most of these times not a time to be ashamed of or best forgotten.

It has been a long time, but here's another Amen.

Quotethere are attitudes expressed in this thread that are prime examples why Republicans have won so many of the recent elections

like what, exactly?  

Quoteviable, believable

As opposed to George Bush?  I find that hard to believe.

Quotehow they need to approach Americans

I'd say they did a pretty good job if 50 some odd million AMERICANS voted for them.  Don't lecture me or anyone on this topic.  I am passionate too, but don't label anyone else as less than American if we don't subscribe to your twisted values.  

And with that, I swear this is the last you will hear from me on this subject.  See "Lame Duck" thread for details, if interested.

Disclaimer- do not respond to this if you disagree with me or might hurt my super sensative feelings.

I think it's interesting that Mr. Conway, who earlier felt this was a 'pointless debate' has gone on to become aggressive and insulting to other posters, and followed it by starting the new revolution of Democrats on the My Morning Jacket homepage.  Goodness, maybe if John Kerry would have thought to start on this forum board like you, he'd of won the Presidency in a landslide!  

Your hero John Kerry nobley conceded in an attempt to unify American for the next four years- not so people could start mobilizing for the next "apocolypse."

Come now gentlemen, we can still have interesting debate without making this personal.

Quotesorry if I got carried away reacting to the tyranny statement but I am not one to sit back and let others bash my country, the greatest in the world.

I just want to make a point...democrats are looked at as "country bashers" or unpatriotic because they don't support the war and they don't agree with the way the country is headed. This is far from the truth. I don't speak for all of them but mostly they are questioning current policy because they want to make this country a better place. Both parties share a common goal, just have different opinions on how to reach those goals.

I personally think people do not question government authority enough. If they did, the outcome of the election would have been much different in my opinion.

Quote
I'd say they did a pretty good job if 50 some odd million AMERICANS voted for them.  Don't lecture me or anyone on this topic.  I am passionate too, but don't label anyone else as less than American if we don't subscribe to your twisted values.  

Wait a second, ladies and gents, let's take a look at the situation. 59.2 million Americans voted for Bush, presumably 1) because they trusted Bush and where he would take our country or 2) they trusted Kerry LESS than they trusted Bush. Now 55.7 million Americans voted for Kerry presumably for the exact inverse of the above reasons. This was not a vast network of conspiracy that subverted our democratic process: thos who support Bush simply outnumber those who support Kerry, simple as that.

Of course, everyone (yes, even our friends abroad) are entitled to their opinion about our country's leadership and their proposed plans about our country. We can disagree and we can even debate the minutiae of those plans.  
 
My point is that to label a candidate (who more than 59 million Americans voted for) as idiotic, dictatorial, diabolic, etc. is just plain irresponsible and, frankly, offensive to the ideals of our country and to the American people. I would hope that most of us could agree that, despite our ideological differences, we all care about this country and its role in the world, and have enough faith in our leadership to believe that they are doing what they believe is right for our country and beneficial for ourselves and others. We might disagree about whether or not such policies are right or beneficial, but ad hominem attacks about the integrity of our leaders are not only irresponsible but, if we are really frank with ourselves, unfair.
 
So Mr. Conaway, while I respect your opinions and your right to have them, I would hope that you would have the same respect for mine and others who, on the whole, disagree(d) with you, presumably some 59 million of us. To call our values (I'm not sure exactly which values, you mean, but nevertheless) "twisted" is offensive, and, due to my prior impressions of you on this message board, I hope that you simply chose the wrong words in this instance.

-Andrew

Perhaps my anger and disappointment has clouded my judgement.  I apologize.

However, I will point out:

1.  The war is wrong
2.  The reasons for going to war were fabricated
3.  The country is a mess and I don't care how many voted to keep the mess going, it's still a mess.  Health care issues alone are going to eat this guy alive, and anyone else who thinks they have the answers.

'nuff said.  'tis a sad day in America.

QuoteDisclaimer- do not respond to this if you disagree with me or might hurt my super sensative feelings.

I think it's interesting that Mr. Conway, who earlier felt this was a 'pointless debate' has gone on to become aggressive and insulting to other posters, and followed it by starting the new revolution of Democrats on the My Morning Jacket homepage.  Goodness, maybe if John Kerry would have thought to start on this forum board like you, he'd of won the Presidency in a landslide!  

Your hero John Kerry nobley conceded in an attempt to unify American for the next four years- not so people could start mobilizing for the next "apocolypse."

and your point is...

Whatever dude.  If you found my comments insulting, don't read them.

Quote

 Don't lecture me or anyone on this topic.   but don't label anyone else as less than American if we don't subscribe to your twisted values.  

honestly john, I don't know why you want to attack me.  my state went overwhelmingly to Kerry, even though I didn't vote for the guy.  I am not lecturing anyone here.  I don't think my values are twisted either, thank you very much.  I was raised with Christian values.  If other people are threatened by the ideals that Christianity puts forth that is their own issue (and I am not saying anyone here is threatened).  Kerry had his finger in the wind just like Clinton used to when it came to issues.  I also resent the fact that the elite/liberal media and political figures in this country think the vast majority of citizens need others to make their decisions for them when they can't seem to take a stand a hold it on aynthing.  In the end, all I want is a safe, productive, positive country to live in 'nuff said. P.S. I'll still buy ya drinks when I finally get to da' 'ville ;)

Quote
this may be true but typically this is performed in the spirit of helping a community in chaos attempt to restore a structure that will help provide them a beneficial society.  unfortunately, you can't predict how power is going to affect any given person--sometimes it goes ok and sometimes it goes very badly.  

If you say so.  But the first instances that come to my mind are: pandering to the United Fruit Co. in central America, winning Panama's independence so we could have a canal, the defeat of the democratically-elected and much-loved Salvador Allende, the installation of the lovely General Pinochet, Manuel Noriega (trained at the School of the Americas at Ft Benning), and the Shah of Iran.  

like I said you never know how power is going to affect somebody...

Quotemy country, the greatest in the world

Were you awarded this title?
Or is it based on another 'World Series' title played for by 2 teams from America?
You lot (Americans) can't play football (you call it soccer) so your opinion means bugger all.  When you've had your hands on the Jules Rimet Trophy, I'll listen again.



Ian Gregg
Political Editor
HeadUpArse Today
Somewhere in England.

And another thing..............

You can use this forum to point out the rights and wrongs of Bush or whoever, but my country is led directly by who you vote for, and I don't get a vote in that.

Politics.  Its a bugger.











(turn up the Eagles, the neighbours are listening)

Quotebut my country is led directly by who you vote for, and I don't get a vote in that.

Politics.  Its a bugger.

You're dead right about that. We "voted for change" in 1997 and look what happened  ???   Does anybody ever keep a manifesto promise anyway?

Plus ça change...

Quote

Plus ça change...

i love it when you talk dirty ::)


(wrong thread?)

Quote

Were you awarded this title?

Quote
Or is it based on another 'World Series' title played for by 2 teams from America?
You lot (Americans) can't play football (you call it soccer)

Its just a well established fact no one gave out any award--sorry if you think otherwise :D.
I think we've got some pretty good soccer players over here.  baseball has nothing to do with the status of this country being on the leading edge of technology, economics, opportunity, you name it.

p.s.  I believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.  don't you guys vote on the Prime Minister anyway?

Quotep.s.  I believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.

Oh, do you mean AFTER everyone else had gone to war to help them, and THEN you decided to join?

;)

I know it's bad for America and the rest of the world but it sure does wonders for the Canadian dollar.

Ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Eh!!!!!

BTW I love MMJ so don't give me too much of a hard time.
 Cheers

Oh yeah.  That part's wicked!!

Never thought this thread would lead so far...

I still believe this forum is made to unite common interests but also to share different opinions. We all respect that otherwise we wouldn't continue to post thousands of words and share a million ideas.

Maybe politics got/get carried us away (and it should be because it so damn important), but I'm sure no one really wants to offend other persons on the forum here(except for the mollusk maybe  ;) and respects one's opinion.

So let the battle continue in style...

Quotedon't you guys vote on the Prime Minister anyway?

No, we don't. Not directly like you do. We vote locally to decide who becomes our member of parliament.
The leader of the party winning the most seats in the general election becomes the prime minister.

Quote
Maybe politics got/get carried us away (and it should be because it so damn important)

I couldn't agree more. It's important that people are passionate about politics, no matter what their beliefs are.

Quotep.s.  I believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.  

You've obviously been reading 'A history of the world as seen through the acting performances of John Wayne et, al'. Not based on reliable fact, unless you were John Wayne.

Quote

You've obviously been reading 'A history of the world as seen through the acting performances of John Wayne et, al'. Not based on reliable fact, unless you were John Wayne.

 ;D

Quotep.s.  I believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.  

Oh, c'mon, is this another one of those: "Hey, we Americans helped you Europeans 60 years ago, so you're never ever to criticize us ever again?" 'Cause that stuff is utter bollocks. You Americans ARE Europeans, from origin...

And all that 'we're the greatest country in the world'-crap is making me sick too. That's the exact same opinion that led some certain megalomanic to try and make Germany the center of the universe. You're not the greatest country in the world. You eat hamburgers, okay? I'm not saying you people live in the worst country either, you live in a country just like anybody else lives in a country and most of these countries are in a total mess these days (as is Holland by the way, where a movie director who openly criticized moslims got butchered like a pig a few days ago). It's all crap and humans just aren't capable of living together peacefully, I guess. But fuck anyone who thinks he lives in the greatest country, or who thinks some God is on his side. I'm sorry, but I really can't stand that.

Okay, how did this turn into a europe vs. america debate?

Sorry folks, I did get carried away.  And I apologize.

However, the main thing I am trying to say is that there is a feeling of disappointment and anger in regards to the election, at least among those who did not wish to see another four years for bush and outsiders fearful of the exact same thing.  America is a great nation, but that greatness also includes great responsibility, not only to itself but to our world neighbors.  The notion that the empire can expand endlessly to engage "hostile" forces in an ever increasing number of nations and blatantly disregard the human and financial costs is preposterous.  The notion that pre-emptive invasions are justified for whatever reasons is also insanity.  We have gone too far and made too many mistakes.  We must reverse this course before it consumes our culture and our nation (if it hasn't already).  Specifically, the idea that we are somehow "defending" the country 6,000 miles away is so far from plausible, I just can't see how anyone can defend this doctrine.  That we pre-emptively invaded a soverign nation, however noble our cause, troubles me deeply not just as an American but as a human being.  This course of action has opened a Pandora's box of bad mojo.  Iraq, ultimately, is Iraq's problem.  I can only imagine the good we could do in our very own country if 220 billion dollars were spent for something desperately needed here and not 6000 miles away, like a whole lot better detection system for explosives on airplanes or shipping containers, or fixing the health care crisis, or funding education fully to build a better future, or reversing some horrible environmental disaster, or countless other things that are terribly needed here, in our own very country; that we pay for these things with our very own tax dollars sickens and disturbs me to no end.  That the so called "tax cut" that seemingly bought W this election and slashing of social programs is somehow regarded as "fiscal responsibility" while running up hundreds of billions of dollars of deficit to crusade in Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Germany, Korea, etc. etc. is pure maddness.  I just can't see the justification for these things.  Find Osama, isn't that the goal, not occupying other nations?  Fight the root causes of terrorism and not the symptoms-poverty and religious fanatacism seem to be creating a monster together.  We can't go on bleeding the country dry to satisfy our lust for petroleum.  I pray that none of you who read this have sons or daughters or brothers of draft age.  I pray that our leaders will see the folly in their actions and retract.  I pray that other nations will forgive our callous and dangerous rush to war.

QuoteI believe the relationsip between the UK and USA was really forged when the US helped you (and all of Europe) when a certain megalomaniac was trying to make Germany the center of the universe.  don't you guys vote on the Prime Minister anyway?

For the reccord. The USA did not want to join WWII. This was not their War.  Only after Japan raided Pearl harbor, America really had a reason to join this war.  Okay, they favored the Allied forces by giving them weapons and other support, but Roosevelt made a promise (when he was elected) that he had  no intentions to join this war.  

Nevertheless, Europe is still grateful for what america did. But as O mentionned, people can't continue to use this argument to make Europe feel guilty.  We probably would have done the same thing for America. (Ps the French even helped with the fight for independence, without their help, maybe there)

One of the big strenghts of America is the fact it's a big & powerfull nation ("one nation under god") with full sovereignity. Nations like this has to take their responsibility on the world stage. One of the weaknesses of Europe as a whole is the lack of sovereignity . Every country has its own foreign policy.  That makes it very hard to speak (and even more difficult to act) with one voice.  We are a strong economic power but a weak military power. And that's what I dislike... sometimes we have to be more decisive. Europe is the big economical partner of the US but the partner to ignore on foreing affairs.

Therefore America as biggest country in the world stands rather alone on foreign affairs (Maybe that's gonna change with China who is now soaring)and that's the reason why a person is needed in the white house who is not only capable to run a good dommestic policy but is also the person who unites the world we're living in and solves problems other countries can't solve by their own.

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And all that 'we're the greatest country in the world'-crap is making me sick too.  You're not the greatest country in the world. You eat hamburgers, okay?

Makes me sick, too, O.  (Though I fear being shot for saying so.)  One of our biggest faults as a nation is our flag-waving jingoistic pride that fuels W and folks like him.  Americans are taught a proud history from an early age that glosses over anything unsavory.  Thus, our blind patriotism is misinformed, but not maliciious.

HOWEVER, let's leave the hamburgers out of this, okay?  They are delicious.

Also, many of us are (at least partially) European by descent, but let's not forget the African, American Indian, and Asian blood that pumps through America's veins.

And I've thought about moving to Canada, esp. in the last few days, but this is my home.  I love it, and I want to fix it.

QuoteHOWEVER, let's leave the hamburgers out of this, okay?  They are delicious.

Also, many of us are (at least partially) European by descent, but let's not forget the African, American Indian, and Asian blood that pumps through America's veins.

Yeah, okay, you're right. On both matters. :)

I just despise patriotism and nationalism I guess. I've never saw any good coming out of that and much, much tragedies. Sure, it's cool to think 'hey, I like this place that I'm living in and I think it's cool that some people who lived here before or live here still did, or are doing, some great things, so ha, in some way I'm connected to those people because I live in the same place, now ain't that funny?' But as soon as you take it any further, I can't follow you anymore and really don't want to. Maybe it's just me.

Patriotism and Nationalism in concept are both ok, however they never work because they are always taken too far.  It's never enough to simply be American, or British or German or whatever and love your country and be proud and do what you can to make it better.  You have to HATE the other guy or be better than the other guy.  The idea that America is "the best" country in the world (while at times is used very cliche), is a good example.   World War I is the best example of nationalism gone too far.

QuoteWorld War I is the best example of nationalism gone too far

Someone who knows his history! I like that :D

Yes, very nice to see that someone has a correct conception about World War I and World War II.

In my opinion, patriotism is fine, as long as it remains patriotism. For patriotism is simply the love of one's country, and the willingness to work and sacrifice to make it better and feel proud about it. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as long as it stays like that.

It is when patriotism turns into nationalism that most of the "tragedies" that O mentioned occur. For nationalism demands not only the love of one's country, but the comparison of other countries to one's own country. The Us vs. Them mentality if you will.

While patriotism is fine and, frankly, awesome, in my opinion, I think people (many of them Americans) too often these days use the word "patriotism" to characterize their feelings of "nationalism". That is misleading and dangerous, and what leads to tragic situations.

Very interesting points brought up by all involved.

I was having a chat the other day about the nature of war (please forgive me if I've mentioned this before...)  Anyhow, the summation of the conversation was that, ultimately, people seem to want the same thing.  They just want to be able to do their own thing.  To live without threat of violence or horror, to keep the friends they'd like to keep, to eat an occasional hamburger, etc.  Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this rings true with the majority of people who live on this planet.  The citizens.  And it seems to me like it's only the "us vs. them" mentality that makes the shit happen.  Groups of passionate people joining forces against another group.  But it's so easy to get lost in a group mentality and forget that ultimately we're all the damn same, and seemingly want the same things, so why in the hell can't we just try to live our lives they way we choose (if we're Muslim, or we're gay, or we enjoy running naked in the forest singing our souls out on the full moon, or whatever) and not mess around with other peoples' rights to do the same?

I realize the opposition to this argument is endless, but I really don't understand how we (as a world, not as a smaller portion of the world, but we as single entities all sharing this planet) can't see yet that the thing that fucks us is the big group?  Obviously it makes things easier if the planet is divided up into continents/countries/provinces/states etc., but then you have to take the good with the bad when you're included in such a category.  So that means that ultimately, you'll never get to vote for a President that you FULLY agree with on EVERY point, or go to a war that is ABSOLUTELY necessary, or be completely proud of the entire population that you share boundaries with.

I've kind of lost my way, but man, the war thing, the fighting for fucking pointlessness (on both sides).  When are we going to really get it?

Probably the next war will teach us.  Don't worry.

Quote

You've obviously been reading 'A history of the world as seen through the acting performances of John Wayne et, al'. Not based on reliable fact, unless you were John Wayne.

whatever--I know time can make facts fuzzy.  you believe whatever makes you happy.  and O let's not forget the who prompted the bankruptcy of the USSR--the greatest threat to free society after the Nazis--thanks President Reagan.  so its not just 60 years ago--we've been there for Europe on many many occasions.  if you all choose to forget the facts fine for you but I will never forget >:(.  the fact that I am proud of my country and its achievement/contributions does not mean I hate anyone--jeez!  sorry if you're jealous or whatever emotion is driving your reactions to this.  P.S.--what is so wrong about loving your country, isn't that what patriotism is all about? unless there is a new interpretation in Websters...

P.S.:  I'm really tired of how many people here and other countries like to crap all over the US and say we're to blame for all the world's problems.

END RANT

You have to understand MMJ fanatic, that when you don't live in the US, you get really sick of hearing them call their country the greatest in the world.  Especially in light of recent events.  There is nothing wrong with loving your country, however to bang your chest (not you, I'm speaking of patriotism in general) without questioning some of the problems that are inherent in your system, is like blindedly believing in a religion.  (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but if you have questions and you turn a blind eye, then that is where the problems lay.)

I know that Canadians are certainly grateful for many a thing that we get from being right beside you, but the deal has its drawbacks as well.

Quote

whatever  
What exactly does that mean? Is it now a cultured and acceptable version of bugger off?

so its not just 60 years ago--we've been there for Europe on many many occasions.  if you all choose to forget the facts fine for you but I will never forget
Many thanks for all your help.

sorry if you're jealous or whatever emotion is driving your reactions to this.

Jealous of what exactly?

I will take my leave of this thread.
Politics.  It's a bugger.

QuoteYou have to understand MMJ fanatic, that when you don't live in the US, you get really sick of hearing them call their country the greatest in the world.  Especially in light of recent events.  There is nothing wrong with loving your country, however to bang your chest (not you, I'm speaking of patriotism in general) without questioning some of the problems that are inherent in your system, is like blindedly believing in a religion.  (Not that there is anything wrong with that, but if you have questions and you turn a blind eye, then that is where the problems lay.)

I know that Canadians are certainly grateful for many a thing that we get from being right beside you, but the deal has its drawbacks as well.

agreed totally.  peace all I apologize if I got all little over the top.  but when you listen to all our media outlets bashing the country as much as they do it can get tiresome.  peace to all.  no more go America I promise

Quoteno more go America I promise

You' re damn right

Vive la Belgique!  ;D

QuoteVery interesting points brought up by all involved.

I was having a chat the other day about the nature of war (please forgive me if I've mentioned this before...)  Anyhow, the summation of the conversation was that, ultimately, people seem to want the same thing.  They just want to be able to do their own thing.  To live without threat of violence or horror, to keep the friends they'd like to keep, to eat an occasional hamburger, etc.  Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this rings true with the majority of people who live on this planet.  The citizens.  And it seems to me like it's only the "us vs. them" mentality that makes the shit happen.  Groups of passionate people joining forces against another group.  But it's so easy to get lost in a group mentality and forget that ultimately we're all the damn same, and seemingly want the same things, so why in the hell can't we just try to live our lives they way we choose (if we're Muslim, or we're gay, or we enjoy running naked in the forest singing our souls out on the full moon, or whatever) and not mess around with other peoples' rights to do the same?

I realize the opposition to this argument is endless, but I really don't understand how we (as a world, not as a smaller portion of the world, but we as single entities all sharing this planet) can't see yet that the thing that fucks us is the big group?  Obviously it makes things easier if the planet is divided up into continents/countries/provinces/states etc., but then you have to take the good with the bad when you're included in such a category.  So that means that ultimately, you'll never get to vote for a President that you FULLY agree with on EVERY point, or go to a war that is ABSOLUTELY necessary, or be completely proud of the entire population that you share boundaries with.

I've kind of lost my way, but man, the war thing, the fighting for fucking pointlessness (on both sides).  When are we going to really get it?

Great stuff EC!  I like the part about running naked in the forest singing to the moon, it remindes me of my favorite play of all time "Equis" (not sure that's how you spell it) has anyone seen it?  The boy ends up gouging out the eyes of all the horses.  Great play.

saw the movie - I really liked it.  But there is a lot of nakedness.
It's by Peter Shaffer - same guy who did Amadeus.

(It's spelled Equus - just so you know. :)  I only point it out because I like the way it looks with the two 'u's.  And it IS a great play, I agree.  ESPECIALLY the nakedness - har har)

Okay, here's a huge rant of my own.  :)

The thing that I never understood about patriotism and nationalism is that I never understood what difference it makes what country you're from, because, well, what exactly is a 'country' anyway? I mean, okay, so I'm from Holland. We have a prime minister whose guts I hate, we have laws that I do not agree with. This prime minister of ours has been talking about Dutch morals and values and has said that, for instance, moslims who come to our country should be taught the Dutch morals and values as an act of integration. Then ofcourse the debate started wich exactly are our shared values and ofcourse it was impossible to define them, because 16 million peope will never have shared values - just some lame compromises. We're all individuals who happen to live in an area that is geographically determined as being the country called Holland. We all happen to like the place where we live, wether it's a farm in Limburg with no other houses around for a few miles or just above a coffeeshop in the middle of Amsterdam. We all wanna stay at the place where we live and we need laws and stuff and since we like to live as nice as possible we try to make those laws as suitable as possible for our own needs and well, since the farmer from Limburg and the hooker from Amsterdam both have a say in that, while they have very different needs and values, the end result will be some compromise that some find alright and others hate. Now what is it that binds them? I would say, hardly anything. They do not share the same values, they do not share the same history, frankly, all that makes them Dutch is geography. Basically. So why would they be proud of being Dutch? The farmer can be proud of being a farmer. A coffeeshop-owner will probably appreciate the fact that it's somewhat semi-legal to own a coffeeshop in Holland. The farmer might hate that. But hey, he lives thousands of miles away from Amsterdam.

Now, I've just been talking about Holland, but when you bring this metaphor to the US, the contrast between the people who live there are really enormous. I mean, a Dr. Dre-fan who lives in The Bronx and has to fight hard everyday not to be killed and a 50-year old white guy who owns a grocery store in Texas and beats up his wife every night, or whatever; what the hell binds them? They're American. But what does being American mean, then? Do they share the same values? I wouldn't say so, right? So they have a president who's supported by, what, 56% of the country? (I forgot the exact number, sorry) So that means that Bush is what 'the American people'  want? I think that's bullshit. There's a bunch of people who geographically happen to live in a huge area that happens to be called one country, who have a huge number of different values, different morals, different wishes, different demands, and a slight majority now forces his will on to the rest of the country. I'm not saying that that proces is wrong, because I don't see any other way of leading a country so diverse either. Ofcourse you can't fulfill everyone's demands. You have to find some kind of compromise. But a compromise it is and a lot of people will be victims of that compromise. And this compromise is Bush. But he's not what 'the American people' want, for the main reason that 'the American people' is a crap concept that doesn't mean anything, in my opinion. The guy from The Bronx and the guy from Texas, they're not 'one people'. That's just bullshit. They do not share anything. So what the hell is there to be proud of? Okay, so maybe you're proud of that those two very distinct people can live in the same country. Fine. But what exactly does that mean? They couldn't live in the same street. They might hate each other's guts. They don't condone each other, hell, they basically live in another part of the world. It's just called one country. Or am I wrong here? The guy from The Bronx will not be glad with Bush, but he has to accept. The guy from Texas might think, wow, what a great country we have, we have all these great morals and values and we have this wonderful guy leading our country who is telling the world how it is and damn, I'm proud of this country! But he's just forcing his will on to the rest of the country. His being proud, in my opinion, is just pathetic.

I've never been proud of my country, because I've never felt part of my country. I live here, I like living here, because it's where I grew up and I might move to Belgium some time, but other than that I don't have the idea that I'd live better in any other country, so I don't feel the need to move. We have some laws that I like, some that I don't. Ofcourse I think it's cool that we are pretty free over here and we don't abuse our women (well, the most of us don't) and we can demonstrate against the government and smoke pot and drink beer when we're under 18, women can have abortions and gay people can kiss each other on the street and get married. That's all very great and therefore I like living in Holland better than I would in, I don't know, Turky, China or the United States. But should I be proud of my country, then? First of all, the whole concept of 'my country' is bullshit, because when I say my country agrees with those freedoms, I would forget that there are millions of people in those country who would rather see abortions, pot and gay marriages illegal. Some of the people in our government would, too. So the whole concept of my country being a free country is crap. There is no 'my country', in that sense. And being proud of someone from my country does or has done does, therefore, not mean anything to me. Sure, those freedoms are freedoms that some people have fought hard for. Those people are great. I honor those people. But how could I be proud of them? They're not me, right? They don't have anything to do with me. Now, I love what they've done and I might share their values and if there's anything I could do to keep Holland as free as it is at the moment, I would. I vote, I've been to demonstrations, whatever. But I refuse to see that as being proud of my country. Those concepts simply do not mean anything to me.

Now some of you might find the above ridiculous, naive, or coming from a 4-year-old. And I must say, I'd love to learn. Explain this concept to me. Because I really don't get your 'my country is the greatest'. I'd love to, but I don't. I'm sorry.

And yes, with the Dr. Dre-fan from The Bronx and the grocery store owner from Texas I used a pair of charicatures, but I didn't just do that to make fun of the USA. And if you would see it like that anyway, then notice that by using the farmer and the hooker/coffeeshop-owner I ridiculed Holland as well. So, no hard feelings. :)

"It's by Peter Shaffer - same guy who did Amadeus."


Amadeus was directed by Milos Forman.

That's right, but Peter Shaffer wrote the original play and adapted it for the screen.

O, I love your post.  So much.  

O:
That's quite a rant.
Hopefully you were drunk, high or both.
Not saying that you're opinions are wrong or not valid but, damn, that's a hellavlotatypin'.

Personally, from the view of a 40 somethin' Canadian, and in 40 somethin' years you do learn quite a bit about the nature of people from different countries, methinks that perhaps you may be simplifying the issue somewhat.
Americans, for one thing, are perhaps the most wonderful, caring,giving, gracious, humble, downtoearth folks you would ever want to meet.

But, politics is politics and there ain't nothing you or I or Bill Clinton, hell, even George Clinton can do about it.

America is a complex country. Perhaps the most complex country in the world.
For one, it is a honest to goodness SUPERPOWER. Like it or not that is the double truth Ruth.
2) It's big. Geographically and popullation wise.
Not as big as China or India but we are talking about different kettles of fish here.
3)Rural America is far removed from urban America in politics, religious thinking and whatever you want to call culture.

Hmmmmmmmmmm......OK, here's the thing.
I'm a bit drunk right now and I forgot the point I was originally trying to make.

So.............let me finish this embarassing post with this,  Think of America as you would the EC.
Meaning in Europe each country has it's own separate identity forge through years of strife and conquest.
In America, each state has gone through many ups and downs not as a country but as individual states.

Oh fuck it. I really should only post when sober.

I shall end with this.

O, you should be proud of your country. It has shown over the years to be a country with incredible tolerance and open arms. Unfortunately when you open your arms you also invite things that you may regret for whatever reason.
That is the price one pays for tolerance. A price worth paying IMO.
You always get whiners who hate change.

To the Americans who like Bush.
He will be your president for another term. If this is what you want then that's fine. It's your country and you get the final say as it should be. Don't give a damn what the world thinks. If he works for you then support the man until the cows come home.
To the Americans who hate Bush.
In less than a handfull of years you will get another chance to vote in a Democrat.
Think about what you didn't do to help Kerry get elected and what you can do next time.

For myself, I love America and the folks in it. I have never cared for it's politics but I can say that about my own country as well.
I am proud of my country and it's people. We embrace and accept others. There is good and bad in this but I feel the good outweighs the bad.

That's it good night

QuoteO, I love your post.  So much.  

Thanks! I loved yours as well, by the way.  :)

Okay T, you said you were drunk, so we'll go with that...

QuoteAmericans, for one thing, are perhaps the most wonderful, caring,giving, gracious, humble, downtoearth folks you would ever want to meet.

But see I think you're missing O's point.  I think he's saying that it isn't right to lump everyone in together, good or bad.  Just over half of Americans who voted, voted for Bush.  Does that mean that America loves Bush?  No.  It means that just over half of Americans who voted, voted for Bush.

QuoteBut, politics is politics and there ain't nothing you or I or Bill Clinton, hell, even George Clinton can do about it.

That's really fucking funny.

QuoteThink of America as you would the EC

Please don't do that.  I am nothing like America.  ;)

QuoteO, you should be proud of your country.

Firstly, you do know that O is from Holland and not America, right?  Secondly, why should O be proud of his country?  His entire post was about how he thinks it's ridiculous to be proud of his country.  Any country.  It's ridiculous to be proud of countries.  You can be proud of people, you can be proud of accomplishments.

QuoteTo the Americans who like Bush.
He will be your president for another term. If this is what you want then that's fine. It's your country and you get the final say as it should be. Don't give a damn what the world thinks. If he works for you then support the man until the cows come home.
To the Americans who hate Bush.
In less than a handfull of years you will get another chance to vote in a Democrat.
Think about what you didn't do to help Kerry get elected and what you can do next time.

What's the point of voting if it doesn't matter who wins one way or another because everything will be cool eventually?

Hm.  That sounded harsh.  I don't mean for this post to sounds harsh at all.  I dug and appreciated the tone of your post (especially because you said "until the cows come home".)  

O, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, either.  :)

QuoteHis entire post was about how he thinks it's ridiculous to be proud of his country.  Any country.  It's ridiculous to be proud of countries.  You can be proud of people, you can be proud of accomplishments.

My point exactly. Thank you. :)

QuotePersonally, from the view of a 40 somethin' Canadian, and in 40 somethin' years you do learn quite a bit about the nature of people from different countries, methinks that perhaps you may be simplifying the issue somewhat.
Americans, for one thing, are perhaps the most wonderful, caring,giving, gracious, humble, downtoearth folks you would ever want to meet.

Personally, though I am indeed just 22, I think that is simplifying the issue. "Americans are", how can you say that? There's billions, trillions, zillions of them, of different races, different colours, different opinions... How can you say there's a group called 'Americans' who all have the same qualities, or even say that 'America' is a concept that has certain qualities? I don't believe that. Don't get me wrong, I bet there are loads and loads of Americans who are wonderful, caring and so forth. All of you are, at least. But there are also loads and loads of Americans who are filthy sons of bitches. Right?

I know me bad.
Gotta quite posting when drunk.

I promise to write that on the blackboard 200 times.

QuoteI know me bad.
Gotta quite posting when drunk.

I promise to write that on the blackboard 200 times.

Haha, it's okay. Really, I'd like to know other people's opinion on this matter, so... please, give us the sober version. Anytime.  :)

QuoteI know me bad.
Gotta quite posting when drunk.

I promise to write that on the blackboard 200 times.

Oh dear.

It made perfect sense to me.

And I haven't been drinking  :-/

made sense to me.

drunk postings are good.  repeat after me...

Quote
"Americans are", how can you say that? There's billions, trillions, zillions of them, of different races, different colours, different opinions... How can you say there's a group called 'Americans' who all have the same qualities, or even say that 'America' is a concept that has certain qualities? I don't believe that.

O, I found your post extremely interesting, and agree with much of it. While I am admittedly proud to be an American, I think that I would have been equally proud to be a Scots-Irishman, German, Pole, etc. (my ethnic heritage) if my circumstances were different. I have always believed that there are other aspects of my own life (e.g. religion, family, friends) that better define who I am as a person.
 
However, as I said, I think one can be proud of one's country; I can't defend every country but I can present an argument as to why I think most Americans are proud of their country. You pointed out the diversity and disparity amongst Americans, whether it be their opinions, their qualities of life, their ways of making a living, their heritages, their ideals and values, etc. However, what unites Americans is the fact that they are American, whether by birthright or by immigrant desire or by expatriate remembrance. Whether or not Americans even buy into the normal ideology of their country (a value on individual freedoms, the opportunity to improve one's state in life, a commitment to caring for one's neighbor and making our country better, etc.) is, in my mind, irrelevant -- the fact is, they are part of the country.  
 
I think there are people living in America who are not Americans, and this is not just those that have immigrated to here from other nations. It includes those Americans that don't care about the country, that have no interest in the welfare of others or of a concept larger than themselves.  
 
However, I would argue that the majority of Americans love America in the same way, though on a larger scale, that they love a sports team, a religion, or a writer/musician/artist. Sure, they are not as closely connected on a daily basis as they are with these other things. Yet, in some way, Americans identify with the concept, the idea of America -- Americans find their identity (to a greater or lesser extent) in America, just as America finds its identity in the lives and ideals of its people.  
 
I will be the first to admit that America has not always lived up to its ideals and values and, in my opinion, has been getting worse of late. But the concept of America striving to improve itself and improve the lives of its citizens (and even, if needed, others around the world) is still present, and still the same ideal to be striven for.
Just because we fail to reach our goal does not make our goal unattainable or unworthy of even our attempting.
 
I think the reason I love and am proud of my country is the fact that I care about what happens to it. If I did not care, then I would not be proud of it and thus I would not be an American. Indeed, some of our greatest patriots are those that stand up for what they feel is right for our country in the face of opposition. O, as you said, you are pleased by some of the things that Holland has done and disgusted by other things. The fact that you are even pleased/disgusted indicates, I think, a certain pride that you take in your own country and the way in which it handles itself.
 
These are my random thoughts. You may begin to pick them apart.   ;)

I don't fully agree with O. I can follow him at some point, but maybe an important issue has been let out of this discussion.  

If we go back to the origin of human mankind, we can say that at the beginning we all were animals, just as we still are now. Then we had some typical patterns of survival, just as we have now.  At that time only one law ruled: the survival of the strongest and the fittest.  Every day we needed to find food, habitation, protect our own territory,... just like we do today. But the way we do it has changed.  During many many zillion and trillion years, we became more sophisticated, developped and learned to behave like we behave today (for some people, this behavior can still be referred as animal behavior  ;D). But some basis needs still remain.

The majority and maybe every human being, wants desperately to find a place where he feels at home, where things are familiar. For many people that's their hometown, their country, or maybe if you keep enlarging the picture, the world.  Just like in the old days,nowadays people hate it when their territory is threatened.  They want to protect it at all cost (look at Fallujah or the conflict between Israel and Palestine)

You don't want to protect something where you are not proud of, you don't believe in, not?  The majority of the people are proud of the place where they grew up, the place they were born or the place they're living.  I see this purely as an individual experience and therefore every individual has the right to be proud of his place where he feels at home.  But a lot of individual experiences creates a group-feeling.  If we go to far with this, we create nationalism is the most negative meaning of the word.

And even if we differ so much from each other( the hooker in amsterdam to the farmer in Eindhoven), we still can have a similar feeling of proudness for the same area, we look at with different eyes.

Boar and Lfish, those were quite interesting posts, I must say! I'll try to react on your posts by picking two quotes from you:

QuoteThe fact that you are even pleased/disgusted indicates, I think, a certain pride that you take in your own country and the way in which it handles itself.

Well, I was a bit surprised when reading this, because, though I do not agree with the word 'pride', I realised that I do care about Holland an living there more than I thought. I guess I too have the group-feeling Lfish talks about, I'm almost afraid to admit. But more about that below; first, I think that it's mainly the word 'pride' that bothers me. You can be proud of something you've achieved, or maybe of things that people close to you have achieved. But what's the achievement in being born and growing up somewhere? You can love your country, I'll go with that... The posts of T, The Boar and Lfish have made me realise that that is not as wrong as I thought and it can even be beautiful. But pride? I still don't get that.

QuoteThe majority and maybe every human being, wants desperately to find a place where he feels at home, where things are familiar. For many people that's their hometown, their country, or maybe if you keep enlarging the picture, the world.  Just like in the old days,nowadays people hate it when their territory is threatened.  They want to protect it at all cost (look at Fallujah or the conflict between Israel and Palestine)

Yes, okay, that's true and I feel the same way when it comes to, for instance, the city where I live. I like living there, so I would try to protect it. That's because of different aspects, including the people. I like living amongst them, they make me feel at home. I feel safe here. But I think the concept of a 'country' is so difficult, because, well, the guy in the Bronx and the guy in Texas have very different homes. right? I think it's logical that they want to protect their homes, but a place like USA, that's hardly one country, is it? That's not 'one home'. I can understand that you feel connected with your home city, because you live there and you 'know' all the people that live there, but a 'country', especially when it comes to the USA, wich in my opinion is merely one country by name, I deem that too abstract to really feel connected with. Like the thing with sports. I never got how you can be excited when a sporter from your country wins. You don't know the guy, you might hate his guts if you would meet him in real life. The whole soccer thing, there are millions of people who normally don't watch soccer, except once every 2 years with the European and the worldwide compititions. Why? Why the hell would you give a damn when your national football team wins? That sort of loving your country, well, I just can't follow it. But yes, the protecting-your-home kind, I feel that too.

QuoteI feel safe here. But I think the concept of a 'country' is so difficult, because, well, the guy in the Bronx and the guy in Texas have very different homes. right?

That's true indeed.  They do have different homes and they do have different backgrounds, but two things are important here.  First of all, education plays a very important role.  The many lessons of history we received through the years, allows us exactly to know what good "deeds" our country did or did not do. In other words we know some facts and figures we can or cannot identify ourselves with.  I believe many Americans can identify theirselves and feel a certain pride when they know that fellow Americans helped the weak Europe during and after the war. They did it for the good cause.  It is also possible that now, many Americans can not identify theirselves with the war in Iraq.   Those examples indicate that a country, which is a complex thing, is sometimes not so complex for the person itself.  We pick some things out of a big jar, things we can ourselves identify with and we glue it to the concept "country".  And those things can be different according to the person we're talking with.

A second thing is the fact people like to distinct theirselves from other human beings.  If we would all be the same, this world would be very boring. So, we try to distinct ourselves from our parents, neighbours, bosses, ... (and at the same time look for common things, like we do here on the forum). This distinction does not only occur on individual level but also on (inter)national level.  If two countries play a footballmatch it is much easier to distinct yourself with your nationality (especially when you're winning), than with the opponent's clothes.  And the good deeds or the positive things that you glued to the concept country, will emerge from the background.

So my point is, regardless the complexity of the concept "country", every individual looks for several aspects he can identify himself with, no matter what his background, profession, ...  is.

Quote
first, I think that it's mainly the word 'pride' that bothers me. You can be proud of something you've achieved, or maybe of things that people close to you have achieved. But what's the achievement in being born and growing up somewhere? You can love your country, I'll go with that... The posts of T, The Boar and Lfish have made me realise that that is not as wrong as I thought and it can even be beautiful. But pride? I still don't get that.

O, interesting point. I think any individual who has "pride" about coming from America, Holland, etc. instead of another place is not only being arrogant but it is being naive. Of course, it is only by pure chance that one is born in the country that they are.

Admittedly, one can feel "fortunate" one is from a certain country. Honestly, I feel fortunate that I was born in America rather than Communist China. Not because there is anything wrong inherently with China, but I feel that I enjoy more freedoms and liberties in America that I would not enjoy in China. This does not make me better than someone from China, of course, and should not in itself be a source of pride. I think you get my point.

The only way in which a person can feel "proud" of his/her country is, in my opinion, when they have actively committed and invested themselves and their efforts into the country. When I was a child, any source of pride I had in America was unfounded -- it was still only the country of my parents; I as a person had not committed anything to it and thus should not have felt "proud" about it. However, now as a young adult (21), I have become involved and concerned in the welfare of the country, by getting involved in the political process, etc. O, you're right that there is no pride in only being born in a particular place; however, there is pride when one works for the improvement of that place, committing their efforts to the betterment of others and the country as a whole.

Good discussion  :)