UK terror alerts

[ali]

these arrests and whatnot only happen when our leaders' numbers are tanking in the polls.  the fear that is generated from all this does in fact make people support the government.  even those on the fence tend to sway back to their government's side when these things happen.

i don't agree with this one either. i think the fear that's generated from these threats makes people look more critically at their governments - both to assess what the governments are doing in a global sense (foreign policy) and also to assess what they do both domestically and internationally in response to the threat. i think these situations make people more critical politically, and more AWARE politically. when things don't affect you directly, it is quite easy to ignore. i'm not saying that people don't care about what their government's foreign policies are normally, but when the resulting consequences directly threaten you in your day to day life, i think people start taking it all a hell of a lot more seriously. which i personally find really sad, that this is what it takes for people to look at the way the world is, this is what our elected governments are doing, and to question things. i agree with andrew saying that it's an uncomfortable position to watch wars and people dying on tv and then have a different reaction when the threat is against your own country, that is  a part of the way our lives work these days. tv objectifies and separates us from the actual reality of these horrific events, and makes it so much easier to sit back & say, well they did wrong, they deserve it. or whatever. i find this a really horrible uncomfortable situation, living in a country that has never had a war on its soil, never even a civil war. and don't get me wrong, i am incredibly grateful for that fact, but i think it makes us all a bit complacent. knowing that there are people trying to live their lives in these horrendous conditions (all over the world, not just the middle east by the way) while i live my (by comparison) cushy life....

i think the whole government involvement thing is just a big conspiracy theory. what has happened is a reaction to many things (foreign policy, religious intolerance, ignorance, fear, etc etc etc) but i would really really think that just writing the whole thing off as "the government did it" is just a bit simplistic. i think greed and vested financial interest had a lot to do with the iraq wars, and i think for sure that some people profit from terrorism and its results, but to just almost dismiss the whole thing as a government-originating hype and manipulation exercise is a bit daft.

i'm not saying we don't like you, i'm just finding it a bit hard to understand you at the moment.

and i find it hard to believe that the us economy is "ruined" enough to warrant a comparison with the situation in post-WW1 germany.... there is no way in hell.

and.....

we will be attacked again, and something horrible is on the horizon because we're long overdue to be in iran and change the face of the middle east for the near future

.... by WE do you mean the US? i hope you don't think that by steaming in there with guns blazing will solve the situation. i would have though recent history would have taught you something about that.

[wellfleet]

tracy... i don't know what i believe about 9/11... i don't know if i skew toward the "loose change" view on things, or toward the "terrorism" angle.

but...

isn't this simple operation a little *too* simple? too clean? too... something? i read somewhere that if you are ever held at gun point and are able to run away, that you should try to do that, even though the attacker may shoot at you. the logic? what are the odds that he'll actually shoot? that the shot will hit you? that the wound would then be serious? that the serious wound would be fatal? very small... how come nobody fought back against a box cutter?
i'm not trying to minimize any deaths or the terrifying reality of being held at knife point, but wouldn't YOU at least try to fight back?

[ali]

how come nobody fought back against a box cutter?

because they were scared. like i said before, fear is paralysing. not everyone has the courage/guts/clarity of thought or purpose to run away from a gun or whatever. i'm not sure i would, but i don't know, as i've never been in that position.

[ycartrob]

tracy... i don't know what i believe about 9/11... i don't know if i skew toward the "loose change" view on things, or toward the "terrorism" angle.

but...

isn't this simple operation a little *too* simple? too clean? too... something? i read somewhere that if you are ever held at gun point and are able to run away, that you should try to do that, even though the attacker may shoot at you. the logic? what are the odds that he'll actually shoot? that the shot will hit you? that the wound would then be serious? that the serious wound would be fatal? very small... how come nobody fought back against a box cutter?
i'm not trying to minimize any deaths or the terrifying reality of being held at knife point, but wouldn't YOU at least try to fight back?

No one fought back b/c in just about every hijacking in the history of the world (I said just about) the plane is flown somewhere, lands safely, and the hostages survive. There have been times when hostages are killed, however, if you sit and cooperate, you get to live (in theory). Go here and scroll down to read about infamous hijackings:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1578183.stm

Plus, it was announced that there was a bomb on board and I guess everyone believed if they fought, then they would be blown up.

I have read the elaborate gov't conspiracy theories, and the 9/11 terrorist operation was way, way less sophisticated, way more manageable and believable.

You really think the gov't set the whole thing up? And no one, on any level, ever leaked a word?  Bill Clinton can't keep a bj he got from an intern under wraps, yet the US gov't can plot and scheme and undertake a mission to fly United Airline jets into buildings, kill 1,000's of US citizens, blame Islamic terrorists, and NOT ONE WORD IS LEAKED?

whatever  ::)

Why does everyone not see that there are actual terrorists blowing up trains in Madrid, buses in London, hotels in Cairo, discos in Bali, beheading Americans in Iraq? It's not a fucking US gov't plot to get votes people, this shit is really happening.

[ali]

and not just americans are getting beheaded either

No one fought back b/c in just about every hijacking in the history of the world (I said just about) the plane is flown somewhere, lands safely, and the hostages survive

is this because usually the motive in hijackings is to use the hostages as leverage to get something achieved/changed, whereas the motive in 9/11 was to use the plane to blow up building targets? the fact that there were passengers on the plane probably just added to the general carnage & shock value. sort of like the kamikaze bombers in WWII

[ali]

and not just americans are getting beheaded either

No one fought back b/c in just about every hijacking in the history of the world (I said just about) the plane is flown somewhere, lands safely, and the hostages survive

is this because usually the motive in hijackings is to use the hostages as leverage to get something achieved/changed, whereas the motive in 9/11 was to use the plane to blow up building targets? the fact that there were passengers on the plane probably just added to the general carnage & shock value. sort of like the kamikaze bombers in WWII

[fitzcarraldo]

No more Smirnoff in the poland spring bottle. Damn you terroristas!  :-/

[SMc55]

I see your logic, ratsprayer, but I think Ali's right, this will only make our government less popular. People are already saying (as they always do when there's a terrorist attack or threat) that we shouldn't have gone to war in Iraq. They are blaming the government to an extent for what's happening. Maybe it works differently in the US, but I think this is the last thing Blair would want. Maybe you're right about the airline business not being that important, but tourist is a huge proportion of our ecomony - we don't have much oil any more.

And I think Tracy's right about fighting back. All the advice is to sit tight and do as you are told in a hostage/robbery situation. I suppose that's based on the assumption that perpetrators do not want to kill themselves, so we'll have to reappraise that as well. Anyway, passengers on one out of the 9/11 planes did fight back.

And of course I like you ratty  :)

[Chills]

Here's my humble opinion on it all.

The threats are very real. What happened now, what happened on 9/11, it's just there. I do not (will not?) believe in these elaborate complot schemes.

What does happen, is that the government thinks long and hard about how to react to these threats. Mainly, they are pragmatically trying to use the bad news to advance their own political agenda. Maybe things like timing are important, and small, but not insignificant manipulations of "the truth." The tragedy of 9/11was of course cynically manipulated to push a dangerous political agenda. That's just the way politics seem to work.

What is enraging is the complete denial of own guilt or mistakes. These attacks are rooted in history, wherein Western countries have played hypocritical roles.
President Bush willfully ignores this important factor. His latest speech (the attackers "hate freedom," particularly the blameless, politically pure US freedom) was a fine example.

Note: I am in no way trying to downplay the irrational side of these terrorist attacks, the loathsome "religious war" undertone in particular. Go atheism!

[BH]

Spending Green to go Green  
BMW, GM and DaimlerChrysler will spend $1 billion on hybrid transmissions  

 By RICHARD TRUETT | AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

AutoWeek | Published 08/11/06, 8:33 am et  

Going green isn't cheap.

General Motors, BMW and DaimlerChrysler are spending at least $1 billion to develop a pair of "Two Mode" hybrid transmissions that will be used in full-sized SUVs and luxury vehicles, and front-wheel-drive cars.

Andreas Truckenbrodt, DaimlerChrysler's executive director of hybrid powertrains, on Thursday revealed for the first time how much the three automakers are spending on the project.

The $1 billion is not equally divided among the automakers, said Larry Nitz, GM's executive director of hybrid powertrain engineering. That's because the costs for each automaker go up based on the number of vehicles the Two Mode transmission is used in. Each model with the Two Mode transmission must have its own software calibrations, explained Nitz.

BMW, which makes rear-wheel-drive cars, except for the Mini Cooper, is not taking part in the development of the front-wheel-drive version of the Two Mode transmission, but might at a later date.

None of the automakers have ever commented on the cost of the project, nor have they given volume projections. Truckenbrodt said the core development of the transmission's internal workings cost $300 million.

A total of about 500 engineers from the three automakers are working on the transmission under a single roof in an office complex in Troy, Mich., just north of Detroit.

GM is scheduled to launch the Two Mode transmission first, late next summer in the Chevrolet Tahoe SUV. The Two Mode transmission is also slated for the GMC Yukon and Cadillac Escalade SUVs, both due in 2008. Dodge will use the Two Mode in the Durango SUV for the 2009 model year.

BMW and Mercedes-Benz vehicles will get the transmission. But neither automaker will say what cars or SUVs will get the transmission and when they will be marketed.

The Two Mode transmission, when used with cylinder cutoff technology, is expected to increased the fuel economy of a full-sized, V-8 powered SUV by at least 25 percent. That means a 5,000-pound Chevrolet Tahoe could get highway fuel economy of about 26 mpg.

GM will build the rear-wheel Two Mode in a plant near Baltimore and sell it to BMW and DaimlerChrysler. The front-wheel-drive version, which uses many of the same parts as the rear-drive Two Mode, will likely be built by DaimlerChrysler.  

I am not exactly sure where this fits in, but it seems to be relevant on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

[ycartrob]

Spending Green to go Green  
BMW, GM and DaimlerChrysler will spend $1 billion on hybrid transmissions  

I am not exactly sure where this fits in, but it seems to be relevant on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

Well try to begin. How is this relevant to the UK terrorist plot?

[BH]

Well, the entire middle east relies on oil sales.

And the big auto companies are on the verge of finding a alternative for the world's number one use of oil.

The big auto companies are supported by the world (US)economy.

The biggest hit to the world economy in recent times was 9/11.

Just a theory on the motivation for 9/11 and other terrorist attacks.

Then again, maybe it was Bush that masterminded the whole thing.  
(My spellcheck just asked me if I really meant to put Bush and mastermind in the same sentence.)

[ycartrob]

I am suprised there hasn't been some mastermind virus to cripple the internet network of American commerce, electrical grids, internet porn sites, etc...

Seems like someone would try to hurt the economy that way.

[BH]

I am suprised there hasn't been some mastermind virus to cripple the internet network of American commerce, electrical grids, internet porn sites, etc...

Seems like someone would try to hurt the economy that way.

It must be becuase Al Gore set it up right from the start!  

[wellfleet]

tracy... if something were to happen to internet porn, there would be riots and mutiny in the streets. that would NEVER happen. however, i believe that worker productivity would soar to levels unheard of...

as for the fighting back or not, i took a sexual-assualt survival thing a while back and the instructor told us that no matter what, under no circumstances should you get into a car or let yourself be transported anywhere. it's better to fight back and risk getting hurt than to be dragged away as your chances of surviving an attack become smaller...

and believe me, i hate this pebble of cynicism that makes me wonder about conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. i used to be the world's biggest optimist, most pollyanna, very hopeful and trusting in the goodness of people and now i just don't know... it really hurts.

[ycartrob]

as for the fighting back or not, i took a sexual-assualt survival thing a while back and the instructor told us that no matter what, under no circumstances should you get into a car or let yourself be transported anywhere. it's better to fight back and risk getting hurt than to be dragged away as your chances of surviving an attack become smaller...

and believe me, i hate this pebble of cynicism that makes me wonder about conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11. i used to be the world's biggest optimist, most pollyanna, very hopeful and trusting in the goodness of people and now i just don't know... it really hurts.

What did your instructor say you should do if a person approaches you on the streets and says they have a bomb strapped to their chest and if you do not get in the car with them, then they will blow both of you up? I am guessing you get in the car and take your chances, right?

pre-9/11, the standard procedure for encountering terrorists who have just slashed someone's throat and killed the pilots and stated that they have a bomb is to just remain in your seat.

Now today, they would be bum rushed b/c we now know what could happen. Pre 9/11, we were not thinking to stop the terrorist before they fly the plane into a building. That had not happened before.

If you're weighing your pebble of conspiracy on the fact that the passengers didn't fight back, then consider that the 4th plane that went down in Pennsylvania only went down b/c the passengers found out where they were being flown and they decided to take the plane back.

It makes sense, a lot more sense than the big bad government planning the whole thing out to look like terrorism, don't you think?

[tomEisenbraun]

(tracy? check yer pm's bro?)

[ratsprayer]

found this...


The British are feeling the pinch in relation to recent bombings and
Security threats and have raised their security level from "Miffed" to
"Peeved." Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to
"Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross."

Londoners have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea
supplies all but ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from
"Tiresome" to a "Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued a
"Bloody Nuisance" warning level was during the great fire of 1666.

Also, the French government announced yesterday that it has raised its
terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide." The only two higher levels in
France are "Surrender" and "Collaborate." The rise was precipitated by a
recent fire that destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively
paralyzing the country's military capability.

It's not only the English and French that are on a heightened level of
alert. Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout Loudly and Excitedly"
to "Elaborate Military Posturing." Two more levels remain: "Ineffective
Combat Operations" and "Change Sides."

The Germans also increased their alert state from "Disdainful Arrogance" to
"Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs." They also have two higher
levels: "Invade a Neighbour" and "Lose."

Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual, and the only
threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels.

[Chills]

found this...
Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual, and the only
threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels.

Ouch, they figured us out finally  :D

[wordawg]

found this...


The British are feeling the pinch in relation to recent bombings and
Security threats and have raised their security level from "Miffed" to
"Peeved." Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to
"Irritated" or even "A Bit Cross."

Londoners have not been "A Bit Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea
supplies all but ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from
"Tiresome" to a "Bloody Nuisance." The last time the British issued a
"Bloody Nuisance" warning level was during the great fire of 1666.

Also, the French government announced yesterday that it has raised its
terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide." The only two higher levels in
France are "Surrender" and "Collaborate." The rise was precipitated by a
recent fire that destroyed France's white flag factory, effectively
paralyzing the country's military capability.

It's not only the English and French that are on a heightened level of
alert. Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout Loudly and Excitedly"
to "Elaborate Military Posturing." Two more levels remain: "Ineffective
Combat Operations" and "Change Sides."

The Germans also increased their alert state from "Disdainful Arrogance" to
"Dress in Uniform and Sing Marching Songs." They also have two higher
levels: "Invade a Neighbour" and "Lose."

Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual, and the only
threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of Brussels.

This is supposed to be funny, right?