Open Letter to MMJ (Health Care Reform)

[camille]

Evertime I think of Obsama calling the Constitution a "negative" document I want to puke.  The big brains who originally set up our governement designed the limits/checks & balances to protect citizens from the same power abuses they ran from in England (and we are so close to allowing a recurrence of if we don't keep a tight rein on Washington)

Not to wade in too deep here, but this isn't just a squidgy feels-like-racism thing. Break the term down to its etymology:

"Obsama" first and foremost labels him as "Other." "Obsama" is to say he's not one of US. He's one of, you know, THEM. It alludes to the idea that he's a Muslim, and therefore, of course, a terrorist (I mean - Osama! why he's the worst of all and he's basically right here in our midst! Obama! Osama! taking over our country!) And he is a secret Muslim terrorist because he was of course not born here, and therefore an illegitimate President to boot. It's a multi-layered racist sandwich. There are perhaps 11 or 12 intolerant, ignorant, ridiculous connotations wrapped up in that one slur.

And the funny thing is, my real beef with the term isn't that you believe it to be true. It's that you do in fact know that it's stupid, but you take some sort of perverse pleasure in further muddying the waters. 38% of this country isn't convinced President Obama was born here. (24% firmly believe he was not, 14% aren't sure.)

38%! of this country! believes that 9 months ago there was a coup d'etat in this country. Thus, the other 62% of us have to endure the ever-escalating ranting rallies of the armed militia / I want my country back wingnuttery while you sit on the sidelines giggling. Kudos. You're on the side of the angels.

But whatever.

More than just intellectual dishonesty, outright dishonesty should really have no place in this discussion.

Evertime I think of Obsama calling the Constitution a "negative" document I want to puke.

In 2001 Obama gave an interview to NPR (WBEZ in Chicago)

The actual quote in full:

"If you look at the victories and failures of the civil rights movement, and its litigation strategy in the court, I think where it succeeded was to vest formal rights in previously dispossessed peoples, so that I would now have the right to vote, I would now be able to sit at a lunch counter and order and as long as I could pay for it I'd be okay.

But The Supreme Court never ventured into the more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society. And to that extent as radical as I think people tried to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn't that radical. It didn't break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as it's been interpreted, and Warren Court interpreted in the same way that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties, says what the states can't do to you, says what the federal government can't do to you, but it doesn't say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf. And that hasn't shifted.

One of the, I think, the tragedies of the civil rights movement, was because the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about change, and in some ways we still stuffer from that."

*

"negative liberties" means that the Constitution spends a lot of time telling the Government what it CANNOT do - ie, the government can't hold you without filing charges or granting you access to representation -  and not nearly as much time outlining what the Government SHOULD be doing.

Personally, I might like to see the Supreme Court rule that the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" means that every American is entitled to a safety net of affordable health care, but that's not, historically, what the courts were set up for.

In the quote you haphazardly tried to slag him with, he was saying that the tragedy of the civil rights movement was that it was too court-focused. Its primary goals were court victories (ruling that you CANNOT discriminate) as opposed to changing hearts and minds - and therefore, how society operates organically, so we still live with the backlash today. He was making a case against using courts to implement broad social goals - which, last time I checked, was a conservative position.

*

I have a good friend with kidney disease. Last year he was insured, and his insurance company was billed about $750 every three months for the blood work he has done to check his kidney function - of which he only paid $58. This year he finds himself uninsured, and the same hospital bills him - this is not a joke - just under $2700 for the same goddamn blood work. It's not that he is now on the hook for the full $750, it's that hospital charges + 300% more for the same procedure to its uninsured patients because they don't have the muscle of a big group negotiating prices for them. And because he has a pre-existing condition... no insurance for him until he can find a big enough company to hire/absorb him.

But that's not even the most inhumane part. The most inhumane part is that if he'd just get it over with and get sick enough to go into full-on kidney failure, well then he'd be dropped into Medicaid and go on permanent disability for the rest of his life. If we let him get sick enough, we'll pay for him to sit at home for the rest of his life, but we won't set up a system fair enough for him to pay a reasonable amount for his treatment so he can keep working and be a productive member of society.

Somebody. Please explain to me this vehement, fist-pumping, flag-waving American pride you have in our current system?

Because I really don't think you people have a f*cking clue what you're talking about.

Evertime I think of Obsama calling the Constitution a "negative" document I want to puke.

The unseriousness of your effort breaks my heart.

[Nikkogino]

Bear Sin Rug?  I'm racist because I believe in small federal government.  You are out there man.  

I never called him "Osbama"....that was another poster.  And frankly, I could give a shit what emails your evil Conservative friends send you.  I don't buy into that shit so don't put me into the category of people who believe he is a non-Citizen Muslim America-hater.  I think he wants the best for this country.  Don't I have the right to disagree with the direction?

I actually respect the shit out of Obama the man.  His story is pretty inspiring.  However, I am not a fan of his politics.  I could give a shit what color he is.  The fact that you called me racist for speaking against what I feel is a bad policy decision is extremely ridiculous.  The intensity of the opposition has nothing to do with his race (it may for some people, but why dwell on the biggots), it has to do with what some people is a radical change in American policy.....

Get over yourself.  Just because you are liberal leaning doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with you wants to kill black people while starving poor people.

[Taterbug]

If people don't think racism is a factor in some of the noise coming from the republican party ( aka News Corp ) they are naive. Just because we elected a president doesn't mean racism is dead, it's just being repackaged as being anti-big government and " free market" " capitalism".  Where the fuck was all that diatribe when George Bush was in office. Give me a break and come up with some new material and get to work on a fucking health care bill.

[AMightyCaporal]

Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up.  Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.

I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama.  lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country.  Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"

[Nikkogino]

Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up.  Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.

I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama.  lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country.  Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"

IAWTP

[the_wizzard]

Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up.  Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.

I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama.  lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country.  Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"

Amen.  It's about coming together to fix the problems, and we can do it if the politics are put to the side.

[AMightyCaporal]

Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up.  Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.

I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama.  lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country.  Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"

IAWTP

eh?

[Nikkogino]

Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up.  Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.

I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama.  lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country.  Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"

IAWTP

eh?

That was me being a geek.  IAWTP- I agree with this post.

[Penny Lane]

Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up.  Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.

I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama.  lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country.  Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"

i agree. camille makes a lot of sense (as usual)

bear sin rug called you racist because you defended 'obsama' as NON-RACIST dig, you claim it's a term that means Anti-American. as camille pointed out, you needed to be called out on that BS.

i agree w/you about returning govt back to state/local authority but move out of the 19th Century. EVERYONE hates big govt, or everyone says they do, until it's to protect or maintain some policy you want. i'm curious as to your ideas about how healthcare can be reformed on a state/local level? for example, medicare is a federal program-- another example, if one state mandated that insur companies had to allow pre-existing conditions, wouldn't you just move to another state? state and local politics are just as corrupt (well i live in NJ so ..) so would insurance REFORM happen? hmmmmm you have more faith than i do.

[Taterbug]

I live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent  ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system.   If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work  ;D...

[Penny Lane]

Once again Camille gives us a level headed view of whats going down with facts to back it up.  Its not right or left, its on republican or democrat, it is simply the facts. None of the drama or the bullshit.

I'm so sick of the racism, accusations of racism, the "left" and the "right", the stupid fucking drama.  lets spend less time arguing about why I'm better than you or you're better than me and spend more fucking time seeing that we are all Americans and open our eyes and be honest about the problems in this country.  Lets kill the political agenda and get to work on creating the so called "greatest country on Earth"

i agree. camille makes a lot of sense (as usual)

bear sin rug called you racist because you defended 'obsama' as NON-RACIST dig, you claim it's a term that means Anti-American. as camille pointed out, you needed to be called out on that BS.

I wasn't defending what he said.....I was stating that bear sin rug has no idea if MMJ Fanatic is a racist.  To say someone is racist without knowing is extremely ridiculous.  How would you like it if someone called you racist for disagreeing with someone, making fun of someone, or being rude to someone?  That seems to be the America we live in now.  All we do nowadays is accuse people of being racist....it makes people feel good about themselves to call someone a racist.  It's also an easy and lazy way to win an argument.
And as you can see by MMJ Fanatic's post above, it was a misunderstanding anyway.  I bet bear sin rug feels like an idiot.

not saying whether MMJFan is a racist or not but i'm suspecting bear sin rug has read enough of his posts over the years to conclude that it wasn't a slip of the keyboard (maybe it was, maybe it wasn't); i don't get your logic of, if he makes a racist statement, that doesn't mean he's a racist. hmmmm...does he need to make 10 statements? in 4 languages?

i'm not calling MMJ fan a racist, it probably WAS a mistake, just defending BSR's responses.

[Penny Lane]

I live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent  ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system.   If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work  ;D...

Ill-i NOIZE---you've got the real BLAGO there! maybe it rivals NJ, not sure. We probably have more bodies (in the Hudson).

[Taterbug]

I live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent  ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system.   If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work  ;D...

Ill-i NOIZE---you've got the real BLAGO there! maybe it rivals NJ, not sure. We probably have more bodies (in the Hudson).

You might have more bodies in the Hudson,  but in IL. those bodies could  vote.  :)

[Nikkogino]

Obama's response to the racism argument is brilliant.  Kudos to him.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/09/21/obama-on-letterman-i-was-actually-black-before-the-election/?icid=main|classic|dl4|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2009%2F09%2F21%2Fobama-on-letterman-i-was-actually-black-before-the-election%2F

[NoVa_NoLa]

 :)


http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/041b5acaf5/protect-insurance-companies-psa

[mjkoehler]

I live in Illinois were corruption is NON- existent  ::) and would love to see our local leaders in charge of our health care system.   If you have driven on our highway system and payed our tolls you would see our fine state government at work  ;D...

Ill-i NOIZE---you've got the real BLAGO there! maybe it rivals NJ, not sure. We probably have more bodies (in the Hudson).

You might have more bodies in the Hudson,  but in IL. those bodies could  vote.  :)

Yes they can my fellow Illinoisian

[The DARK]

 :-?

Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?

Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with.  ;)

[AMightyCaporal]

:-?

Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?

Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with.  ;)

The debates and discussions are important and needed.  Its when they turn into the he said she said drama that causes the problem.  Often times then people are arguing about being a racist or not rather than discussing the importance of healthcare reform- without the hatred- facts, respectable opinions from both sides of the spectrum and some real talk...

[The DARK]

:-?

Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?

Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with.  ;)

The debates and discussions are important and needed.  Its when they turn into the he said she said drama that causes the problem.  Often times then people are arguing about being a racist or not rather than discussing the importance of healthcare reform- without the hatred- facts, respectable opinions from both sides of the spectrum and some real talk...

I agree wholeheartedly, but this thread has lasted for what, 17 pages with not many contributions at all to the actual topic at hand? I'm all for the discussion, but maybe we should move this to Off-Topic Ramblings instead of dragging Jim's post into it.

[AMightyCaporal]

:-?

Would Jim have posted this message if he knew that the debate would devolve into this? I doubt it. Say what you want about politicians themselves, but an honest man like Jim trying to help people out shouldn't be called out for doing so. He wants us to help improve something that ought to be improved. Isn't that what everyone wants in the end? Why should we lower ourselves to the level of the idiots we see on the mainstream news?

Time to let this thread die. We've got a Monsters of Folk album to fall in love with.  ;)

The debates and discussions are important and needed.  Its when they turn into the he said she said drama that causes the problem.  Often times then people are arguing about being a racist or not rather than discussing the importance of healthcare reform- without the hatred- facts, respectable opinions from both sides of the spectrum and some real talk...

I agree wholeheartedly, but this thread has lasted for what, 17 pages with not many contributions at all to the actual topic at hand? I'm all for the discussion, but maybe we should move this to Off-Topic Ramblings instead of dragging Jim's post into it.

Jim's post revealed the major problems within our government- this forum community is our country on a smaller scale. Many different backgrounds and ideals come together in one place.  An issue arises where ideological sides are taken, and even people who were drawn together with a common love are reduced to name callings, accusations, and overall hatred (maybe too strong of a word) towards one another's opinions.

Maybe the thread should be moved to off-topic, but I sort of feel that this is too important- maybe it should be right up front... there isn't enough discussion about what is happening here.  I mean, its right in our faces and no one is saying anything about it!  They are letting it go down, joining a side, or sitting back and watching- like its some sort of reality show.

I dunno- just my opinion I suppose.