DANGER! - Political Thread

[Shug]

I think I know how you feel, Devil Led.  Until the election is over, I won't go to my Mom's house with her fundamentalist Christian husband's Fox News/Focus On The Family bullshit all over the place and forget about my brother, who converted to ultra-orthodox Catholicism (Opus Dei) years ago.  About all I can talk about with either of them without getting really upset is the weather.

[ItBeats4Jew]

I think I know how you feel, Devil Led.  Until the election is over, I won't go to my Mom's house with her fundamentalist Christian husband's Fox News/Focus On The Family bullshit all over the place and forget about my brother, who converted to ultra-orthodox Catholicism (Opus Dei) years ago.  About all I can talk about with either of them without getting really upset is the weather.

Opus Dei?!!!  I thought that was just a fictional thing created by Dan Brown ;)

[Devil Ledbetter]

I think I know how you feel, Devil Led.  Until the election is over, I won't go to my Mom's house with her fundamentalist Christian husband's Fox News/Focus On The Family bullshit all over the place and forget about my brother, who converted to ultra-orthodox Catholicism (Opus Dei) years ago.  About all I can talk about with either of them without getting really upset is the weather.

Opus Dei?!!!  I thought that was just a fictional thing created by Dan Brown ;)

I have this friend .... okay, a wife of a friend, who is a practically a shiite Catholic. She will find a way to work the words "Holy Father" into any conversation. She's worse than me with David Gilmour.

Needless to say I haven't approached her about politics. I'm sure she thinks I'm satan incarnate.

[exist10z]

I'm finding it very disheartening that my socially very liberal, atheist boss is voting Romney/Ryan because he's afraid if he doesn't, he'll have to pay more than 15% tax on his sizable dividends.

Worse, my socially liberal parents have read Obama's America (book the movie 2016 is based on) and somehow fallen for it hook, line and sinker. My mom was trying to talk me into reading it. "Everyone of voting age should read it! It will change the way you vote!"

Told her I had a teenage daughter: I can't vote for a team that thinks fertilized eggs are people and wants to outlaw birth control. What about minorities? Atheists? Gays? I asked her.

And she actually said, "Oh, all of that can be fixed later."     

It was all I could do not to stick my hand out and say "Hi, I'm Devil, your lifelong feminist daughter. I don't believe we've met."

Not sure how much this will help, and I am sure you already know this, but there is a biological and evolutionary component to people's conservatism.  I face the same thing with people important to me, people who I love, and instead of simply believing they are selfish (they are) and heartless (they aren't), I try to remind myself that they are simply doing what evolution dictates.

Conservatism is a species protectant mechanism, trying to keep the most for yourself and those most genetically similar, is what organisms are 'supposed' to do.  I try to remember this fact, when trying to understand fiscal conservatives.  I try to remember this fact, when trying to understand how a social liberal could vote conservative.  Protecting yourself and your own, is a powerful and ingrained biological force.  It's also something taken advantage of by conservative politicians, this is obvious, as the fear mongering and denigration of 'the other' predominates their message.

I think I can make the case that it's short sighted, and that caring about others (the planet, animals, etc.) will ultimately lead to better results for all, including the individual.  But it's difficult to get past the primal fear and biology. 

[BH]

I've thought, for many years, that campaign finance reform is crucial to re-establishing a democracy in our country (because let's face it, we do not have a fucking democracy in the US where elections are bought by special interest groups/PACs/the corporations behind them).  Making how much money you spend a non-factor in getting elected, in my view, is super important to democracy.

this!!!!

Imagine if you took all of the intelligent people working in politics and government across the country and change their agenda to, *gasp*, "working together to make the country a better place!"   Oh, what we could accomplish as a human race I can't even imagine.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I'm finding it very disheartening that my socially very liberal, atheist boss is voting Romney/Ryan because he's afraid if he doesn't, he'll have to pay more than 15% tax on his sizable dividends.

Worse, my socially liberal parents have read Obama's America (book the movie 2016 is based on) and somehow fallen for it hook, line and sinker. My mom was trying to talk me into reading it. "Everyone of voting age should read it! It will change the way you vote!"

Told her I had a teenage daughter: I can't vote for a team that thinks fertilized eggs are people and wants to outlaw birth control. What about minorities? Atheists? Gays? I asked her.

And she actually said, "Oh, all of that can be fixed later."     

It was all I could do not to stick my hand out and say "Hi, I'm Devil, your lifelong feminist daughter. I don't believe we've met."

Not sure how much this will help, and I am sure you already know this, but there is a biological and evolutionary component to people's conservatism.  I face the same thing with people important to me, people who I love, and instead of simply believing they are selfish (they are) and heartless (they aren't), I try to remind myself that they are simply doing what evolution dictates.

Conservatism is a species protectant mechanism, trying to keep the most for yourself and those most genetically similar, is what organisms are 'supposed' to do.  I try to remember this fact, when trying to understand fiscal conservatives.  I try to remember this fact, when trying to understand how a social liberal could vote conservative.  Protecting yourself and your own, is a powerful and ingrained biological force.  It's also something taken advantage of by conservative politicians, this is obvious, as the fear mongering and denigration of 'the other' predominates their message.

I think I can make the case that it's short sighted, and that caring about others (the planet, animals, etc.) will ultimately lead to better results for all, including the individual.  But it's difficult to get past the primal fear and biology.

It actually does help.

What bothered me about my mom, especially, was not so much losing her liberal vote--I respect her right to vote however she's sees fit-- but that she honestly thought she could talk me into voting against my conscience. She knows me. She knows what a jackbooted feminist liberal I am. That she thought she could have me read some book of right wing propaganda and that I'd respond by throwing everything I stand for out the window? That actually hurt my feelings.

[Shug]

Not sure how much this will help, and I am sure you already know this, but there is a biological and evolutionary component to people's conservatism.  I face the same thing with people important to me, people who I love, and instead of simply believing they are selfish (they are) and heartless (they aren't), I try to remind myself that they are simply doing what evolution dictates.

Conservatism is a species protectant mechanism, trying to keep the most for yourself and those most genetically similar, is what organisms are 'supposed' to do.  I try to remember this fact, when trying to understand fiscal conservatives.  I try to remember this fact, when trying to understand how a social liberal could vote conservative.  Protecting yourself and your own, is a powerful and ingrained biological force.  It's also something taken advantage of by conservative politicians, this is obvious, as the fear mongering and denigration of 'the other' predominates their message.

I think I can make the case that it's short sighted, and that caring about others (the planet, animals, etc.) will ultimately lead to better results for all, including the individual.  But it's difficult to get past the primal fear and biology.

Good point and well stated.  I think its important to distinguish between a healthy survival instinct that all animals have and an unhealthy expression of that instinct as greedy, selfish behavior.  I do believe that greed is a disease currently destroying our society/country and that the root of greed is the fear that there will not be enough resources for me and mine.  (ie "not only am I going to take care of myself and my immediate group over all others, but I'm going to try to stockpile so much wealth/access to resources that insure our survival/maintain our extravagant lifestyle that the chances of my resources running out are minimized").  Its really hard to teach people that there is enough of everything for everydoby (well, if population control is addressed) if we are smart about how we consume and replenish and share resources because their survival instincts keep them vigilant about the possibility of running out.  Its hard to teach people that we really are all in this together and helping someone else is, in an indirect way, helping everyone.  I don't understand why the so called "spiritual" institutions don't teach this doctrine.  Maybe humans have not evolved enough to be ready to accept it.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

Both of these nuggets come courtesy of status updates that came through my feed last night.  Unfortunately, they are both from my aunt.   

i can relate completely.  it seems everyday somebody I know says some new random bullshit about why Obama is so bad and anti-christian, etc. 

today this old dude at my work said he's not voting for neither romney or obama.  I asked "why?" he said "because I don't like either of them".  and replied "what exactly don't you like about Obama". and his response was "He apologized for America".  and I  said "what?  who cares, we're the largest terrorist organization in the world, we have the largest military in the world and we've killed 10's of thousands of people.  I'm glad he apologized.".  he rambled on again about how the US NEVER should have to apologize for it's actions, and I laughed then he stopped talking and turned around in his chair so his back would be facing me.  haha, it's wtf dude?

my mom's side is crazy christians.  my aunt and her husband are full blown creationists.  literalists of the bible.  I was trying to talk to their son last saturday at my sisters wedding just about life and whatever.  we started talking about God, Heaven, Hell, etc.  his dad, my uncle in-law, kept whispering in my cousins ear telling him what to say.  I was wasted so after a few times I looked at my uncle and said "Hey Johnny(my cousin), tell your dad that if he whispers in your ear one more time I'm going to punch him in his fucking face..."  it was awesome dude.  I can't tell you with words how great it felt to get it off my chest after years of biting my tongue. 

my main point that I was trying to get across to my cousin was to think for himself because he's being bred into idiocy.  I'm tired of religious bullshit and people who are factually wrong about history.   those idiots are essentially what empowers these fuck nuts. 

the Mayans were right on some level, a consciousness change is coming and I think it's going to be mans transition from religion to science as the new way to explain and express our existence.  when you can carbon date the stories of jesus christ and they weren't written until 100-400years after his death that should set off a red flag for people.  but they shrug it off.  the fact that science didn't exist until after the bible was written should be  a huge red flag for the people who take the bible literally.  if you stay stuck in that ancient bronze age mentality you deny science the ability to explain the metaphors.  which is what that book is, allegory.  this isn't my opinion, it's fucking fact.  even the high ups at the Vatican admit to that.  these little non-denominational churches are nothing more than mini-cults.  I've gotta stop or I'll rant forever.

[el_chode]

If you think that Obama's campaign isn't financed by rich millionaires that are so popular to hate, then you really need to re-evaluate your position on things.

Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

If you truly believe your vote to be valuable, then why waste it by voting against a candidate instead of for a candidate? It's an election, not a referendum. Or at least, that's how it should be. But if that's the case, you're falling for the GOP tactic since they (a) know Romney is weak and (b) are trying to make this an election a referendum on Obama. They WANT you to make your decision binary; they WANT you to only vote for Obama if you don't like Romney, or better, vote for Romney only if you don't like Obama. You're playing into the game like a rabbit into a box as the rich donors on both sides get ready to yank that stick out.

If you don't vote your conscience then you are just as much a part of the problem.

And for what it's worth (and I'm sticking my neck out here) most Republicans aren't gay-hating religious fundamentalists anymore than most Democrats are pot-smoking hippies. It's a stereotype perpetuated by both sides - the left as an elephant to pin a tail on; the right as the squeakiest wheel.

And for those of you who say they're not all the same - they both do nothing to fix the fact that the younger generation is getting fucked in every hole in order to support the eldest generation who paid the least amount in taxes and want the most amount in return.

This isn't a battle of the 1% vs the 99%; it never was. It's a battle of the ballooning majority trying to get theirs and taking advantage of generations they believe to be out of touch and apathetic. And the best part is...we vote with them out of fear of the spectre of a "more evil other side". If you honestly believe that Mitt Romney is only getting elected to help out his rich buddies, you're just as foolish as the Romney supporter who believes Obama just wants to get elected to put everyone on welfare. No one is that evil; no one is that single-track minded.

Both sides do nothing to end an endless war on drugs and brown skinned people (usually at the same time). Both sides do nothing to address domestic surveillance or gov't transparency (in fact, the Dem's removed these things from their official platform this year). Both sides do NOTHING to reinforce our civil rights. We claim to want to check the budget while the TSA expands and operation thinthread archives our emails. And we still believe that one side is better than the other if only because of an effective marketing campaign of bumper sticker sized slogans and feel good mantras when, in fact, no one has done anything in a decade to address the slide in income and civil security (instead we just shit our pants over perceived threats to national security).

A slide I directly blame on the oldest generation (as an admitted ageist) as they have had the most voting power for the longest time.

And I know many of you are older than me. I'm not talking about you...in fact, if you know the words to Bastards of Young you're pretty much in the same boat - and I submit that song as proof that this has been at least 25 years in the making; 25 years spanning Dem and GOP control; 25 years of both sides running a train on multiple generations while doing nothing to address immigration (since having more workers is a great way to help support an aging population).

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to working to help pay off my excessive student debt that goes into the pockets of wealthy donors who use my generation as a personal piggy bank!

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

chode let me say I agree with most all of what you're saying.  and you're right on a lot of stuff but i think there's a piece of the puzzle missing in your view. 

you're absolutely right about us voting for evil either way.  but there are levels to this.  all down the line all the way to your local sheriff.  and on that local level is where you make the change.

one or two votes for president either way won't make a difference but I've gotta agree with what previous people have said.  any vote for a third party presidential candidate is a vote for romney straight up.  he's the underdog.  you lessen obamas advantage.  whether it matters or not if him or obama is president is your choice to make. 

but when it gets down to those sheriffs, and judges, and senators or house dudes.  your vote fucking matters hugely.  when it comes to ballot initiatives and stuff like legalizing marijuana your vote fucking matters so so so so so so sooo much.  these social issues are up to our vote. 

government moves slow in the first place.  and i highly doubt congress will be anymore supportive of the president if he's re-elected.  faster change would be great but there's that 60vote fillabuster bullshit.  it should 51votes or whatever, simple majority.  grover norquist and his pledges should be locked in a cell in the basement of the deepest cave in the world.  sheldon adelson and his newt love cocksucking ball licking dick can go to hell.  the koch brothers and their billions of dollars, their creation of the tea party.  these are ALL conservative organizations.  hardcore capitalist, roll back the regulations and let us make you our slaves type shit.  this is the first election where money will matter.  even michael moore thinks romney's going to win simply because of money:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/30/michael-moore-mitt-romney_n_1843824.html

[exist10z]

If you think that Obama's campaign isn't financed by rich millionaires that are so popular to hate, then you really need to re-evaluate your position on things.

Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

If you truly believe your vote to be valuable, then why waste it by voting against a candidate instead of for a candidate? It's an election, not a referendum. Or at least, that's how it should be. But if that's the case, you're falling for the GOP tactic since they (a) know Romney is weak and (b) are trying to make this an election a referendum on Obama. They WANT you to make your decision binary; they WANT you to only vote for Obama if you don't like Romney, or better, vote for Romney only if you don't like Obama. You're playing into the game like a rabbit into a box as the rich donors on both sides get ready to yank that stick out.

If you don't vote your conscience then you are just as much a part of the problem.

And for what it's worth (and I'm sticking my neck out here) most Republicans aren't gay-hating religious fundamentalists anymore than most Democrats are pot-smoking hippies. It's a stereotype perpetuated by both sides - the left as an elephant to pin a tail on; the right as the squeakiest wheel.

And for those of you who say they're not all the same - they both do nothing to fix the fact that the younger generation is getting fucked in every hole in order to support the eldest generation who paid the least amount in taxes and want the most amount in return.

This isn't a battle of the 1% vs the 99%; it never was. It's a battle of the ballooning majority trying to get theirs and taking advantage of generations they believe to be out of touch and apathetic. And the best part is...we vote with them out of fear of the spectre of a "more evil other side". If you honestly believe that Mitt Romney is only getting elected to help out his rich buddies, you're just as foolish as the Romney supporter who believes Obama just wants to get elected to put everyone on welfare. No one is that evil; no one is that single-track minded.

Both sides do nothing to end an endless war on drugs and brown skinned people (usually at the same time). Both sides do nothing to address domestic surveillance or gov't transparency (in fact, the Dem's removed these things from their official platform this year). Both sides do NOTHING to reinforce our civil rights. We claim to want to check the budget while the TSA expands and operation thinthread archives our emails. And we still believe that one side is better than the other if only because of an effective marketing campaign of bumper sticker sized slogans and feel good mantras when, in fact, no one has done anything in a decade to address the slide in income and civil security (instead we just shit our pants over perceived threats to national security).

A slide I directly blame on the oldest generation (as an admitted ageist) as they have had the most voting power for the longest time.

And I know many of you are older than me. I'm not talking about you...in fact, if you know the words to Bastards of Young you're pretty much in the same boat - and I submit that song as proof that this has been at least 25 years in the making; 25 years spanning Dem and GOP control; 25 years of both sides running a train on multiple generations while doing nothing to address immigration (since having more workers is a great way to help support an aging population).

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to working to help pay off my excessive student debt that goes into the pockets of wealthy donors who use my generation as a personal piggy bank!

A few facts, and a few good points, but ultimately full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

I am not going to bother re-writing everything I already wrote, as I suppose at least some of this is directed at me as a rebuttle anyway, and a re-rebuttle would just be a waste of time.  However, a few points.

Your tone (admittedly difficult to assess on the interwebs) and admission of 'ageism', added to what I assume was supposed to be a humorously vitriolic last paragraph, leads me to conclude you are speaking more from emotion than reason.  This is understandable.

Having said that, your point about 'most Republicans aren't...' is both absolutely factually correct and unemotionally well reasoned.  Of course they aren't.  And as I said previously, they aren't bad people either. I would (did) argue they are either A) led by a biological/genetic evolutionary imperative, B) or simply misguided and mislead.

You mention a 'ballooning majority', where it appears you are referencing older people (have no idea how you delineate 'old' - age wise, but I suspect you are referring to Baby Boomers).  It is not physically possible for a human being to 'balloon' from anywhere, these are people who were already alive and have now grown older.  Eventually, assuming you grow older (you can certainly lessen this chance by continuing to dissuade people from participating to the best of their ability in the electoral process, but I'll get to that), you will see that you are still 'you', just older.  In the same way 'most Republicans aren't...', your grouping of older people, and ascribing to them a greedy selfish lack of care about the young, is misguided.

That being said, there are plenty of people out to get all that they can - at others expense, restrict your choices, subjugate 'brown people' (and women), increase military spending and police powers, and generally force you to conform to their world-view.  They're called Republicans. 

So if you think a vote against them is wasted, don't vote.  If you think you're just a tool of 'the man' (the 'Baby Boomer boogie man' I suppose) and falling into their scheme somehow by voting, then don't vote.  If you can't grasp the fact that one side really is less harmful, that they might even be helpful if they weren't constantly obstructed and forced to play the other sides game, then don't vote.  Or vote Green.  Or vote Socialist (which is actually how I'd vote, if I thought it would help).  Or just 'stick it to em' by not voting at all, that'll show them.

Seriously, I know you must be young(er), as you said as much, but throwing a tantrum never solved anything.  Incremental change, hell - even slowing a downhill slide, is better than just giving up.  Think about the generations that will come after you, and don't be guilty of the same self-centeredness with which you condemn 'the older generations'.  Maybe things won't get better during my lifetime (I'm 43) or yours, but throwing in the towel isn't going to help. 

It can get worse...

[Jon T.]

way too much reasoning in here.  I'm going back to Facebook.

[exist10z]

chode let me say I agree with most all of what you're saying.  and you're right on a lot of stuff but i think there's a piece of the puzzle missing in your view. 

you're absolutely right about us voting for evil either way.  but there are levels to this.  all down the line all the way to your local sheriff.  and on that local level is where you make the change.

one or two votes for president either way won't make a difference but I've gotta agree with what previous people have said.  any vote for a third party presidential candidate is a vote for romney straight up.  he's the underdog.  you lessen obamas advantage.  whether it matters or not if him or obama is president is your choice to make. 

but when it gets down to those sheriffs, and judges, and senators or house dudes.  your vote fucking matters hugely.  when it comes to ballot initiatives and stuff like legalizing marijuana your vote fucking matters so so so so so so sooo much.  these social issues are up to our vote. 

government moves slow in the first place.  and i highly doubt congress will be anymore supportive of the president if he's re-elected.  faster change would be great but there's that 60vote fillabuster bullshit.  it should 51votes or whatever, simple majority.  grover norquist and his pledges should be locked in a cell in the basement of the deepest cave in the world.  sheldon adelson and his newt love cocksucking ball licking dick can go to hell.  the koch brothers and their billions of dollars, their creation of the tea party.  these are ALL conservative organizations.  hardcore capitalist, roll back the regulations and let us make you our slaves type shit.  this is the first election where money will matter.  even michael moore thinks romney's going to win simply because of money:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/30/michael-moore-mitt-romney_n_1843824.html

Sticky, making a lot of good sense.

I wish I had seen your post before I bothered writing mine.  You said it all just as well, if not better.  The bit about Norquist, The Kochs, Adelson, and the filibuster issue are details I didn't bother to attempt conveying (And I likely wouldn't have done so as colorfully as you anyway  ), but they should drive the point home for anyone who bothers to educate themselves.

Well done.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

right on exist.  I think we posted at the same time pretty much.   I think everybody sorta gets it but the way the power system is setup makes some of the facts twisted.  especially when the politicians are flat out lying in full force. 

eh, this election will be interesting.  bring on the fuckin debates.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

I forgot Karl Rove, he's a big one too.  fucking dickwads.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

and we really haven't even talked about the major voter suppression going down led by the republifucks.   the dismantling of unions.  the destruction and privatization of schools.  this election the republicans are so fucked that they've been running as fake democrats in multiple states.  Michigan, Wisconsin, etc.

this shit just isn't happening on the left right now.  not even sort of as intense. 

[Fully]

I have to agree with sticky about the importance of voting at the state and local level. Two years ago the Tea Party gained control of TN's legislature. They spent their first year in control attacking teachers. They introduced no legislation that would improve conditions in the classroom for students. In fact, their Republican governor appointed a guy to be head of the Dept. of Education who wants to repeal class size mandates. Ask any teacher you know how
U h that helps children to learn. All of them will tell you that it does the opposite. Last year, they realized that many of them would soon be running for re-election so they backed off the teachers, firemen, and policemen, but the damage has already been done. It's important not to let the sumbitches in the door to begin with, but on e they are in and have shown their true colors, vote them out.

[Fully]

Also, typing on a phone is not my strongest form of communication.

[el_chode]

I try not to rebut any one person as to avoid misconstrued forms of  tu quoque type arguments, and that's not an allegation against anyone who has directly replied to me. And my wall of text was written dehydrated and somewhat buzzed. But whatever lubes up the gears.

However, I must speak on a few points that have ALWAYS bugged me:

- a vote for a third party is a vote taken from/given to x: it's never a vote against anyone; it's never a penalty. a vote is a vote and if it does something, great. If it gets marginalized or zero-summed because of the larger politics, well, it didn't matter much anyway, did it? Better to express my conscience than vote on fear; it's better to vote proactively than reactively. it is binary thought that gets us into these systems of robopolitics. Besides, it is the tea party that takes votes away from Romney, if anything at all. and if your margins between candidates are so thin that you're afraid the slightest sneeze will blow over your house of cards, then your battle is already lost; you're ruining it for yourself.

- ballooning populations: my point was that there's always been a balloon, which is why i fault them - they've had the power to make choices for this long, and they've used that power for evil, not good.

- dismantling of unions: you'll notice the rhetoric here is generalized for a reason - most union-bashing is against bloated public sector unions. Private sector unions are generally left alone. Not always - but here in NJ, the "working class" that make up the "middle class" are typically blue collar union types - the same people (and, by proxy, unions) being milked dry by many public sector unions that are mismanaged and riding out legacy costs. In other words, the war on unions is often led by unions. That's not to say our teachers haven't taken collateral damage as a result, but it's something that needs to be nuanced (and the debate isn't). Though a Wisconsin law prohibiting all collective bargaining is a different beast altogether. But as I said, nuance.

- voter fraud/discrimination: please look up gerrymandering in any blue/red stronghold. it's the oldest form of voter disenfranchisement and it's on both sides. Here in NJ, the running joke is that Democrats in Hudson county will vote early, vote often, and vote early and often twice. Of course, a NJ Democrat is the epitome of corruption and the reason why everyone thinks of NJ as corrupt. Same thing when we have armed thugs around certain precincts making their presence known. It doesn't have to happen through legislative acts (I also just had a training on election crime in anticipation of the coming elections, but keep in mind, NJ is generally a Blue State, so of course our corruption is skewed blue).

- immigration & unions: keep in mind the war on drugs has been perpetrated just as much by democrats; the war on immigrants took a major blow in the late 80s due to democrats fear of pissing off the unions due to an influx of cheap, legal labor. It's just as bad on both sides, and only because we keep voting out of fear and blaming anyone who doesn't play by these rules as "apathetic" or having "tantrums". Both sides suck for civil rights. It was the democrats who passed DOMA. They like to preach equality but rarely deliver. If anything, it has been the voters who deliver equality, not the politicians. While the DREAM act was a good step in a great direction, it's still not that much for the big picture. While the GOP does still fear sharia law for some reason, pretending they're the only ones does nothing but hurt the cause on both sides.

And, as a general concept, voting isn't a boomer "game" or "their scheme"; it has been their tool against the rest, to vote themselves a piggy bank. Look at the names of the people you all cite as agents as corruption and destruction - what generation do they claim to represent? what generation are they (generally) on the tail end of?

The tactics of the republicans have always been fear tactics. Fear of terror, fear of a black president, fear of a welfare society. And what do you all do? Play right into that while claiming it's better than letting the other guy win. Voting by fear. And that has been my point, and (for reasons may be blamed on the reader or the writer), I have never advocated against participation. My angle here is to participate and encourage participation. But if you only have one vote, why waste it on a compromised candidate? Why waste it on a platform you largely disagree with but disagree with less than the other side? If you are going to participate, why do so half-assed? Make it count.

Change will never come if we consistently compromise.

And for what it's worth, Michael Moore is a know-nothing twat and I think Obama will do just fine in November, absent some national tragedy he fucks up. In fact, I'd wager the only real effect of money is to buy the votes of minds paralyzed by fear and willing to believe the talking points of one side over the other. What I put forward here and before is a plea to move beyond that. Avoid the DailyKos as much as Fox News and of course never read the Huffington Post.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

chode chode chode.  the thing is I agree with you 98percent on everything you've said.

I agree voting straight democrat really doesn't do much to help the country. 

president this term for 2012 is Obama/Biden vs Romney/Ryan  that's what it is, you can vote for Ron Paul or Gary Johnson but that vote could be used to help push the obvious top shelf candidate.  all things aside it's whether or not you want romney as your president.  that's what your votes for THIS election, not every election just this one.  If you don't want Obama, any vote for anyone else helps romney.  it's not illogical, or saying your vote doesn't matter it's just what's up with that current race.

the entire reason ron paul was elected is because of local, grass root voting.  same with a bernie sanders.  but not rand paul, he sold out to the republicans like a lot of the tea party. that should be acknowledged.  over and over again.

the union shit is specifically directed at teachers currently.  more specifically the purpose being the privatization of school.  the transition into making them "private" charter schools.  it's happening in detroit with varying results.  the thing about privatization is once you have a private school you don't have to follow any government regulation relating to education.  there should be a balance.  they want to destroy tenure, they want to destroy pensions that have been paid into for years, decades.  it's a simple idea, privatize, hire less skilled workers, get rid of good teachers that cost more for less good teachers and then when the less good teachers fuck up fire them and re-hire new, shitty teachers.  totally makes sense.  and is soo worth it.  sike.  fuck that. shit.

it's not fraud that's the problem it's voter suppression.  gerrymandering goes on on both sides for sure.  here in michigan the republican just gerrymandered the fuck out of shit and fucked the butt on a lot of shit. the "S" district" or "Super District" they created is a great example of bullshit.  it's happened, it's a conservative attempt to rig the vote this time in their advantage, if the dems did it I'd be just as pissed but they didn't do it this time.

michael moore's opinion was a guess, nothing more nothing less.  just like your opinion.  it's all the same.