Z's great and all for what it is.........

[rob]

........and I know the guys don't look back......but, personally I'd love a return to the I Needed It Most/At Dawn/If It Smashes Down/Nashville To Kentucky atmosphere. Those songs just seem so much more meaningful than say.....Anytime. But then again Lay Low totally blows my mind......don't mind me........just thinking out loud.

[wellfleet]

no, this is really good. the forum needs healthy debate on MMJ's merits. it's what makes it interesting! i think the band is in a very elastic place right now, they're bending and stretching to see what they as musicians enjoy playing and putting out there. i love their mellow acoustic stuff but i also like the balls-out rock and weirdness. it's like neil young... comes a time is incredible, but so is ragged glory and they're completely different. i guess it depends on your mood.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

I can't wait until they do a reggae record.  Or proto metal.

Or proto reggae metal disco.

Or shoegaze skronk low fi scuzz toilet rock.

[Jellyfish]

I love Z...a lot...but have to put below the first 3 in my personal preference.That being said,I like the direction the band is going.....hoping they can continue to surprise us with different sounding albums.Jim seems to follow a muse similar to Neil...and that's a good thing.

I wish MTV or someone would bring back Unplugged...would love to see the Jacket do one of them.

[wellfleet]

that would imply MTV showing some music instead of laguna beach (over and over and over)... i miss when MTV2 showed the craziest videos all the time instead of nu-metal and rap... anyone know what Fuse is like?

[thebear0284]

i dont really understand how "Anytime" isn't meaningful, in my opinion it is among the most moving and meaningful songs MMJ have ever written, I mean it's about self-expression and the realization that in order to move on at any point in your life ypu must express yourself, and for the band and jim the music  became that oulet. That's what Z is all about, going into the woods and finding yourself through art. It's also what At Dawn hinted at and It Still Moves was searching for. I think the line "things i could say to myself/i could never say to anyone else" is such a simple yet gorgeous line, it's among jim's best. "Anytime" is a classic song in the long line of classic MMJ songs about music and artistic expression.

[thebigbang]

........and I know the guys don't look back......but, personally I'd love a return to the I Needed It Most/At Dawn/If It Smashes Down/Nashville To Kentucky atmosphere. Those songs just seem so much more meaningful than say.....Anytime. But then again Lay Low totally blows my mind......don't mind me........just thinking out loud.

I think I can relate to much of what you are stating here.  I keep listening to Z under different circumstances hoping this will change and have been reluctant to write anything negative in case my feelings changed. They haven't yet.

Nearly all of the original compositions on the EPs, the first two albums and most of "It Still Moves" really transport me to a good place or make me feel SOMETHING.  Experiencing those songs live or recorded there is an emotional response nearly every time.

This just has not happened with the Z songs and I have a few thoughts about why that is.  Even though the songs appear to be about very weighty subject matter (apparently about life's journey, spiritual searches, strange entanglements and friends who have died, for starters) the music doesn't pack the emotional wallop the other songs have in spades.

Based on interviews that I have read, the band members would probably disagree with my assessment about the songs on Z.  Obviously the closeness of the subject matter and the new recording experiences will color their views differently than the average listener.  But the passion and genius for capturing emotional experiences in a tune and delivering it right to the deep recesses of one's soul just isn't there this time. At least not for me.  The seeming ease with which MMJ has done this in the past probably spoiled me. But, This I Believe:  there will be future MMJ tunes to rock my world after Z (props to Dan Gediman).

An odd thing about Z is that the lyrical hooks keep getting stuck in my consciousness and I find them hard to shake. Different ones, all day long.  This never really occurred much on the previous releases, with the notable exception of me shouting out  "waking up feeling good and l.i.i.i.m.m.m.ber" over and over all too frequently.  I've guessed two explanations for this:

First, the earlier tunes just had an amalgamation of instruments/voice/inspiration that created its own aura. Which is why it is so easy to relate to The Way That He Sings from "At Dawn".  Even if Jim didn't state this bluntly, listening to the song itself is experiencing it.

Secondly, on most of the previous songs I heard them over and over for months or even years without really knowing the lyrics because they were mostly unintelligible (by design?). It really isn't the words that he says, even though the lyrics turned out to be equally inspired as the sounds at times.

A hopeful thought is that the band is still releasing albums ten years from now and will have produced a half dozen that I think are better than the any of the first four.  Now that would be AMAZING.

[kehnow]

hey - i agreed that 'z' was far inferior to the other MMJ albums.  UNTIL i heard them play some 'z' songs live at the fillmore.  hearing and seeing those songs performed live really made it for me, and now i love 'z'.  

can't wait til the dvd of the SF show come out...anyone know when?

[thebigbang]

hey - i agreed that 'z' was far inferior to the other MMJ albums.  UNTIL i heard them play some 'z' songs live at the fillmore.  hearing and seeing those songs performed live really made it for me, and now i love 'z'.  

Very interesting comment about your experience hearing the songs live.  This is in light of the fact that I self-edited out comments I was going to make in my previous post (since it was so long already) about how I noticed the lack of emotional connection with the audience on the Z tunes at the last show I saw.

Obviously, this was contrary to your experience.  But at the Palace show, I even gestured to my wife to look over the crowd during the Z songs and see how much less electricity there was amongst the fans compared to when the earlier material was being played.

Now the Louisville audiences are likely more familiar with older material than in other cities and that might explain it.  But she readily concurred that the crowd in attendance that night was much more moved by the non-Z songs.

Anyway, that was our impression.  The lucky ones in the first few rows might not have noticed it, but it was real obvious to us from way back in the theatre.

We all probably would agree that MMJ can really sell their songs live better than just about any other band.  It's the opposite experience from most concerts, where the live music is a mere shadow of the studio concoction.

[wellfleet]

it could be that the lack of emotional connection you feel can be traced to where you are in your life now. like, maybe when you're 12 and hear OK Computer it means nothing to you but when you're 23 you understand it all of a sudden. I dunno, I don't know you obviously...
mmj are in their rubber band phase, they need to stretch and try stuff out. maybe in a month you'll go through something and Lay Low will mean a whole lot, or Knot Comes Loose... ya know?

[ycartrob]

you know, I was listening to Z today driving to work and I thought, I totally get this album.

That's what I love, b/c the boys just throw it out there, put down their feelings and words and art on tape and let it be. Either you get it or you don't.


I think it really is special to them that they make such a different record, and people "get it". I get it and it's cool if you don't get it.

[ycartrob]

as far as Z material zapping the electricity from the room, at The Palace, that's irrelevant.

The same thing happens at every live show (and I have 100 examples).

Last Friday night, Living Color played FUNNY VIBE and the crowd just sat there; but when they played the familiar CULT OF PERSONALITY, suddenly there was electricity.

Or when I saw Radiohead 2 years ago, every song off HAIL TO THE THIEF was met with a general apathy, but when they played the familiar   CREEP, everyone went nuts.

And finally, I saw the Jacket in Knoxville in 04. They played WAR BEGUN with the most excellent improv add on and people seemed bored, but, of course, the "electrical" highlight was the   familiar     ONE BIG HOLIDAY.

The crowd's response means nothing more than familiarity.

I bet in 5 years, when they play ANYTIME, you'll feel the electricity more than you will from whatever songs they are playing from their newly released stuff.

[rob]

Don't get me wrong.....I still LOVE Z alot......all I meant was some of the songs make their point in a less moving way........but that's actually a good thing, sometimes. I recently made an MMJ comp for an uninitiated friend......and I originally planned to put the most obviously emotional songs on it......but it can just get too heavy to hear all those in a row, so I threw in Lowdown, Easy Morning Rebel, Heartbreakin' Man and Lay Low to break it up some, and it worked out great.  The scope of what Jim has done so far, musically, is just incredibly good......he's definitely wise beyond his years......and not even 30 yet.......amazing. Hopefully, there'll be tons more music for us to ponder over from these guys, for many years to come.

[thebigbang]

as far as Z material zapping the electricity from the room, at The Palace, that's irrelevant.

The same thing happens at every live show (and I have 100 examples).

Last Friday night, Living Color played FUNNY VIBE and the crowd just sat there; but when they played the familiar CULT OF PERSONALITY, suddenly there was electricity.

Or when I saw Radiohead 2 years ago, every song off HAIL TO THE THIEF was met with a general apathy, but when they played the familiar   CREEP, everyone went nuts.

And finally, I saw the Jacket in Knoxville in 04. They played WAR BEGUN with the most excellent improv add on and people seemed bored, but, of course, the "electrical" highlight was the   familiar     ONE BIG HOLIDAY.

The crowd's response means nothing more than familiarity.

I bet in 5 years, when they play ANYTIME, you'll feel the electricity more than you will from whatever songs they are playing from their newly released stuff.

I agree with your  point that familiarity with the tunes will stoke the audience as opposed to an unfamiliar song, but the Palace audience was adoring fans who just had a couple of months soaking up Z immediately prior to the show and I would bet more people there were unfamiliar with the older material than the Z tunes, so I don't know if it explains it in this instance.

Maybe our take on this was in error, or maybe the songs don't shake up the audience up as much some of their other songs.  Both are possible explanations.

"Anytime" and "Gideon" seemed to excite folks the most.  Make what you will of that, but they probably will be the two that are most fondly enjoyed by audiences five years from now.

[ycartrob]

I agree with your  point that familiarity with the tunes will stoke the audience as opposed to an unfamiliar song, but the Palace audience was adoring fans who just had a couple of months soaking up Z immediately prior to the show and I would bet more people there were unfamiliar with the older material than the Z tunes, so I don't know if it explains it in this instance.

don't shake up the audience up as much some of their other songs.  Both are possible explanations.

"Anytime" and "Gideon" seemed to excite folks the most.  Make what you will of that, but they probably will be the two that are most fondly enjoyed by audiences five years from now.

and again, I can reference the Nashville show. They played I THINK I AM GOING  TO HELL, off Tennessee Fire, their oldest released album, and most of the audience was not electric as they were when they played GIDEON.

Unless you're playing to like 50 people, it's ALWAYS the popular songs that get the rise out of the folks.

I am sure the same happened to Led Zeppelin on their Physical Graffitti tour; everyone went nuts when they played FOUR STICKS or HEARTBREAKER but sort of sat there when they rolled out the odd and unfamiliar KASHMIR.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

huh, is it all about this band's catalog or the audience?  I'm not certain.

People are funny, they tend to react strangely to songs they haven't heard before....

[thebigbang]

and again, I can reference the Nashville show. They played I THINK I AM GOING  TO HELL, off Tennessee Fire, their oldest released album, and most of the audience was not electric as they were when they played GIDEON.

Unless you're playing to like 50 people, it's ALWAYS the popular songs that get the rise out of the folks.

I am sure the same happened to Led Zeppelin on their Physical Graffitti tour; everyone went nuts when they played FOUR STICKS or HEARTBREAKER but sort of sat there when they rolled out the odd and unfamiliar KASHMIR.

One last stab at  this:

We both are VERY, VERY familiar with their entire catalog of songs and we felt something more when we heard the non-Z tunes. It appeared to us that many of  the people around us experienced the show the same way.

Guess we or the band, or both, are just in different life-stages now and can no longer relate to one another.  It certainly couldn't have anything to do with the songs. :o :o :o

That's my opinion and my experience and why I agreed with the original post in this thread.  Z could be so magical that it turns you into a toad, if that is your experience (Z magic potions and spell-neutralizers in stores now!)

(I've got Z playing over and over in my computer while at work again this morning. I like it and I listen to it a lot, but the music isn't as interesting or moving as their other stuff. Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way)

[wellfleet]

well, i won't say you MUST love Z, but maybe you need more time to let it grow on you. i'll use radiohead as a reference point again. when i first heard OK Computer, i hated it. i thought it was awful. all the squiggling and nonsense and weirdness and loopiness just rubbed me the wrong way. i hated that they didn't re-record The Bends, i hated their move from pretty straightforward alt.rock to spacey alt.rock. i really begrudged the band for the OK Computer experiment. it took me over a year of listening to the album and putting it down and picking it up again to realize the breathtaking awesomeness of this album.
and then it occured to the me that The Bends was associated to a part of my life that I held very dear. It was the soundtrack to my high-school experience, hockey games, basketball games, dates, parties... so maybe because you haven't had Z around enough to associate some feelings and events to the songs you don't feel emotionally tied to it yet. maybe something major is about to happen in your life, like a big promotion, a graduation, a birth, a (i hope not) death and that event will be tied to the time you listened to Z all the time. then you will hear Dondante and bawl like a baby. or you will hear Wordless Chorus and laugh and remember.
you don't need anybody's stamp of approval on your feelings, but i think it's completely normal to not like everything your favourite artist has put out.
neil young alienated so many fans with the stuff he did in the 80s. Landing on Water, Everybody's Rocking... when neil experimented in left field, he got ripped for it and fans really lost connection with his music. even Greendale pissed some people off even though it was his best record in years.
this is a good thread because this discussion is vital. i think if the band reads this they won't think "oh i can't believe this guy doesn't get us", they'll think, "how can we reach him?"
anyway  :-*

[ycartrob]

One last stab at  this:

We both are VERY, VERY familiar with their entire catalog of songs and we felt something more when we heard the non-Z tunes. It appeared to us that many of  the people around us experienced the show the same way.

Guess we or the band, or both, are just in different life-stages now and can no longer relate to one another.  It certainly couldn't have anything to do with the songs. :o :o :o

That's my opinion and my experience and why I agreed with the original post in this thread.  Z could be so magical that it turns you into a toad, if that is your experience (Z magic potions and spell-neutralizers in stores now!)

(I've got Z playing over and over in my computer while at work again this morning. I like it and I listen to it a lot, but the music isn't as interesting or moving as their other stuff. Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way)

It's amazing to me how if you offer a different way to look at a situation, people quickly go to the "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way".

I swear.

All I am doing is challenging you to look at the big picture. That's all. I never said anyhting about MMJ being flawless or perfect or sacred, just challenging you to look at it differently, based on my own personal experiences.

Some of you come to this board with a chip on your shoulder, expecting everyone to defend MMJ to the death, and when you are challenged  to think differently or look at something differently, you hit us this crap: "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way". I remember when Z first came out, and some guy had a bootleg computer version and said the keys sounded cheap. I asked him what he meant by cheap and pointed out some great songs in rock history with cheap sounding keys and he posted something very similiar to: "Please forgive me for not seeing the light and understanding that all that MMJ does is sacred and perfect in every way".

Holy shit man, what a cop out.

THINK.

and BigBang, with your logic (and please correct me if I am wrong, I am truly trying to understand you), MAGHEETAH is a more "moving" song than WAR BEGUN or...GOING TO HELL b/c the audience becomes more electric? Is that what you're saying? The merit of the song is based in the audiences reaction? Because those 2 songs get LESS of a reaction AND they are older songs.

I am truly trying to follow your logic, it just doesn't add up. I am reading your posts as posted, not reading anything into them, however, I really think you feel that you KNOW what I am trying to convey; and it's NOT that MMJ is "sacred and perfect" (and who really gives a fuck if I were to think that anyway? It doesn't matter).

Here's to the Jacket, continuing to make sub-par music for the masses... ;)

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

I think his comments were meant as sarcasm...about "seeing the light" per se.