Z - double vinyl question

[TomBarton]

this question goes out to anyone else who has the double vinyl from Badman. can you hear some serious clipping(kinda distortion) when the levels get high? im talking about in specific - the end of gideon - a constant clipping sound (it could be a reaaaallly distorted guitar judging by the fade out, but i don't quite think that's all of it) and the other specific offending spot, is in knot come loose - the last set of "deep in my heart".

if this is happening for anyone else, i'd like to know and help this information get back to Dylan at Badman.

[tomEisenbraun]

i thought it was just my crappy stereo set-up. do you have a good turntable? because i definitely noticed that, but figured it was cuz my pioneer set-up is from the 70s.

[dragonboy]

but figured it was cuz my pioneer set-up is from the 70s.

Very nice!  8)

[TomBarton]

yea - i have a reference setup. my 'table is a brand new Rega with a very nice cartridge on it, running through a whole lot of other nice stuff. i was hoping this wasnt one of those situations where you can only hear it on nicer ones (not trying to knock your 'table).

did you notice the clipping in the same areas i talked about? or at any different/other points?

anyone else have this problem?

[tomEisenbraun]

haha, go ahead and knock my table, dude. it's older than i am.  :o

i don't know if it was in the same spots as yours, but i'll check it when i get back to dorm. i'm home for the weekend though, so that'll have to be monday or so.

[Crispy]

Yay, other vinyl people! I thought it sounded a little clippy too, but like tomEisenbraun, I'm using old stuff. Mine's an old Marantz (a little younger than me) with an OK cartridge, running through a new sony amp so I don't expect great results but it is loud and clear. I'm gonna check it out at lunch.

[TomBarton]

excellent to hear, that im not the only one hearing these problems. like i said, my setup is reference... you know you've got a problem with audio gear when your stereo is worth almost double the value of the car you drive.

if there's anyone else experiencing these problems, speak up. i'll send this thread over to Dylan at Badman for his knowledge.

[Crispy]

That's not a problem, if you're driving an '88 Tempo.  (that's not really what I drive either) ;)

Well, during lunch I had my rig almost pegged, and it seemed to me that the noise at the end of Gideon is probably regular fuzzy guitar way loud. However, I think you're absolutely right on about Knot Comes Loose. The "deep in my heart" vocal seems pretty distorted at the high end, but then maybe it's our ol buddy reverb acting on the high notes, and Leckie and Jim were OK with it. I know my setup isn't nearly good enough make these kinds of judgements for real, I need to sell a car and get me some decent eq.

[TomBarton]

I've noticed the clipping now during Into The Woods, when the choir kicks in...

[Chico]

Hey Tom, I think I may be noticing the same thing.  It has been driving me nuts to the point I can barely enjoy this spectacular album.

I have a Stanton str8-100 with a Stanton 890SA cartridge and a  D89RM stylus.  My receiver is a $300 (in 1994) Sony mediocre pile of ____, and even worse bookshelf speakers.

With this setup I get pretty good results with most music, but have had issues with a few tracks on At Dawn, "By My Car" on Acoustic Citsuoca, and over most of Z, especially on "Gideon".  Also, I notice similar distortion at the end of "Dogs" on Pink Floyd's Animals.

My observations/thoughts:

1) I have heard that inner tracks on vinyl are not as high of quality.  Most of the tracks I have had trouble with are indeed inner tracks.

2) Most of the distortion I hear is over high vocals, especially sss sounds.  Jim James seems to be more problematic than anyone, go figure.

3) Perhaps the distortion is due to my cartridge not being able to handle the range/hz/whatever/stuff?  I am pretty retarded when it comes to splainin' this kinda stuff, sorry.

4) My understanding of clipping is that you are "chopping off" the top or bottom of the wave.  If my understanding is right, from examining the wave, it looks like MAYBE there is clipping on "Gideon", but I hear similiar distortion throughout the record where the wave does not appear to be "chopped off".  "Gideon" does seem to be the biggest offender though.

I'm glad you posted, 'cause I was about to save up for a Rega to try and solve this problem for myself.

-Chico

[TomBarton]

hey chico - 1st things first - if you're big into the black stuff, then a Rega is worth every red cent. now - on to business.

with vinyl - there are only 2 ways to get clipping as we are experiencing with Z.

1 - the original source that the vinyl was pressed from, is flawed and the person mastering it really did a poor job or perhaps it's a live recording where the mic's werent setup right to handle the dynamics (perhaps what happened with 'by my car').  

i'd be interested to hear from some people about the CD version of this stuff - and hear if the clipping exists on those digital sources. the MP3's i have dont exhibit the clipping... but they are MP3's.


2 - the other way to get clipping, is somehow, someway - the pressing process goes wrong. it's quite the tricky process, and there's a laundry list of things that can go wrong. there's also setup things that need to be considered (tangent tone-arms vs. radial that do the cutting, material that the master acetates are cut on, 120/150/180/200g vinyl etc.) lots of ins/outs. i'm not familiar with the 'inside tracks pressed at less quality than the outter tracks' statement - but the hard sibilance (the sss sound) is well documented across many different records - and is a direct result of a poor pressing. the stylus on the cartridge reads everything in it's groove - that's why you hear dust specs etc as little pops. but - the clipping, and hard sibilance are the errors in the pressing that the stylus is picking up, and what we might be hearing across now, all different levels of turntables/cart's.


what is going on in this case? who knows exactly - im talking to the guys at badman, and they're now aware of and looking into the matter of bad masters, or bad pressing.

in the meantime, do enjoy the album - because it really is fantastic, and perhaps start saving for the rega - it's a really nice way to replicate sound.

also, if anyone can hear this clipping on the CD in any of the following sections, please speak up:
gideon (2:00-3:00)
into the woods - choir section
knot come loose - last set of 'deep in my heart'

much obliged all

[Chico]

In case anybody still reads this stuff...

The problems that I mentioned in my post were identified as sibilants (harsh distortion on sss sounds).

I switched from my Stanton cartridge to a Shure M97xE, and the problem is gone.  It also seems to have fixed Pink Floyd's "Animals".  Like wow man!  Those dogs sound crazier than ever!

My halfway-(un)educated guess is that records of higher quality may exhibit these "problems" on lower quality cartridges.  Not certain whether the sibilants problem I hear is the same everyone else is hearing.