Mother Fucker still can't pronounce "Nuclear"

[tomEisenbraun]

:) okay, cool. Just wanted to make sure you weren't takign what you heard from the crazed apocolyptic southern pastor's to be the whole of Christianity.

And Rats, I realized after I wrote that it came off on the offensive to you. I was merely refuting that Christians who are responsible with what they believe know not to just heap disaster on God's hands, but that we are indeed responsible. I'm in now way giving the hurricanes a "well, it's a mystery of God..." to the natural disasters that happen. Some people will believe that way, but it's because they are like the people you mentioned. The people who are happy to feel safe in their ignorance. But please don't lump all of Christianity into that category. We are definitely not just a mass of dogmatic  idiots.

[ratsprayer]

:) okay, cool. Just wanted to make sure you weren't takign what you heard from the crazed apocolyptic southern pastor's to be the whole of Christianity.

And Rats, I realized after I wrote that it came off on the offensive to you. I was merely refuting that Christians who are responsible with what they believe know not to just heap disaster on God's hands, but that we are indeed responsible. I'm in now way giving the hurricanes a "well, it's a mystery of God..." to the natural disasters that happen. Some people will believe that way, but it's because they are like the people you mentioned. The people who are happy to feel safe in their ignorance. But please don't lump all of Christianity into that category. We are definitely not just a mass of dogmatic  idiots.

nah i didnt mean to lump like that.  i know good and bad christians, so dont take offense.  i wish more christians were like you, to have an open mind and be willing to discuss things and see we arent so different.  so, lets go bowling...   ;)

[ali]

how can you not believe in global warming?? i know we are just coming out of the last ice age, and that an integral part of the natural system of weather cycles is that after an ice age, there is always a corresponding period of warmer weather. that's natural. but global warming is about what we as a part of that natural cycle have done to the planet to exacerbate this natural warming, so it is warming much more & faster than would otherwise happen. have you heard of the greenhouse effect? and it's not just about getting hotter (although god i know about that this summer, which has been hotter than normal, and hotter earlier) but about the seasons getting more extreme. colder, wetter, hotter, drier.... it's not karma its a direct result of the shit that we as humans have pumped out into our atmosphere, at the same time as cutting down a vast proportion of the forests around the world. you do know that trees are the lungs of the world? yes we are in a hotter part of a natural cycle, but if we have severely damaged if not destroyed the natural systems that would normally help the world cope in times of natural climate change... we only have ourselves to blame. i guess you could call that karma - if you mean it is the direct consequence of several hundred years of increasing industrialisation catching up with us. calling it karma sounds a bit fatalistic to me, when after all, we could and should have been doing everything we can to fix this a long time ago.

EC i agree with you about people in past times being more in touch with natural systems as they were literally out in it. the country i live in is not exactly one of the more urbanised, but i still find that i need to get out of the city & just be out there. like i've said before, if nothing else, it's good for the soul

don't know about a hippie but i am definitely a greenie  :) & i'm now a happier greenie after that little rant  ;D

[ratsprayer]

we have no idea how fast and how much warming is being done in correlation to thousands and millions of years ago.  there have been numerous mass extinctions, the ocean currents completely change directions, the magnetic poles completely shift (which is long overdue), etc etc.  we're long overdue for a lot of these things, and truth is any one of those factors could be fucking with the weather.  i dont blame the greenhouse effect as the number one cause for it, sorry.  im not a bush-ite who thinks global warming is going to destroy our economy, there are just shitloads of other factors at play.  hell back in 1883, kraktoa exploded in indonesia and fucked with weather world-wide.  that was just 123 years ago.  why cant something else be happening today having an extreme influence on the weather.  theres been talk about the core temperature of the earth changing as well.  greenhouse gases are an easy thing to point and put up on a billboard, fact is, there are many known and unknown things we should be studying to find out, and even then, we wont ever figure it out unless we can go back in history and study the weather and whatnot for the past thousands and millions of years.

[ali]

i do agree with you - we really do know so little about our own planet, but as well as looking back and trying to figure out what's happening or likely to happen in relation to what has happened in the past, i really really do believe that we should be trying to take control of things that we do that we know have serious consequences on our planet. pollutants, waste levels, clothing manufacture practices, farming & fishing practices.... god there are so many ways that we can actually improve things, weather is just one way we are fucking up our future. actual changes that can be put into practice now. we have already passed the point where we are consuming more resources than the planet can replace...

i read a book about krakatoa a while back (simon winchester if anyone's interested) which was really good. talked about the global impact (turner painted the unnatural sunsets in london caused by the ash from half way round the world). anak krakatoa (the child of krakatoa) is more or less the same size the original was when it blew, so who knows when it might happen again?

i have absolutely no idea what bush's stand on it is, but like a lot of things, to change global or even national practices, you have to make it economically as well a socially viable for people to change.

[aMillionDreams]

woah.  this thread's all over the place.  So let me cut to the chase and say I agree with Ratsprayer about just about everything.  I too don't buy the global warming theory either.  There is no evidence.  

When I was a kid I remember everyone saying the earth was getting colder and we were headed towards an ice age.  Then all of a sudden the earth is getting warmer which is  also supposed to usher in a new ice age!?!  You'll have to explain that one to me.  

There is not much history about the weather we don't know how the climate works really and looking at it year to year is too simplistic to conclude that we are all going to die.  

Also these are new problems and as I said in my earlier post, humans aren't always as smart as we give them credit for.  A little over a hundred years ago the automobile hadn't been invented yet.  

I agree that things need to change with consumption but I don't see it happening.  It's human nature to be greedy because it is part our nature.  Ratsprayer, you should know that the animal part of us always tries to survive by looking out for number one and by going out and getting whats at hand.  I'm not try to justify greed, I'm just saying it's only natural and not going to end anytime soon.

Maybe if we all pray really hard God will make it all better.  Or maybe Batman!

[ali]

i can't believe you just said there is no evidence for global warming.

i could explain how global warming leads to an ice age, but there are websites and books out there... take a look. it's scary just how precarious natural systems are

just because it is a natural condition of humanity to be greedy (which i am not arguing with) and to be materialistic (i love my crap as much as the next girl), this doesn't mean we should just say "oh well, that's just the way we are". we need to change & i think we've got to the point where we HAVE to change. we only have one planet after all and mars still don't look like a comfortable alternative to me

[aMillionDreams]

i can't believe you just said there is no evidence for global warming.

i could explain how global warming leads to an ice age, but there are websites and books out there... take a look. it's scary just how precarious natural systems are

just because it is a natural condition of humanity to be greedy (which i am not arguing with) and to be materialistic (i love my crap as much as the next girl), this doesn't mean we should just say "oh well, that's just the way we are". we need to change & i think we've got to the point where we HAVE to change. we only have one planet after all and mars still don't look like a comfortable alternative to me

I hate to be so pessimistic, but how do you propose we change human nature.  Overcrowding is also a problem but how are you going to talk people out of having sex, by guilt tripping them into thinking that the world is going to end if they do?  I don't think that will even work.  Telling a teenager to not have sex or telling a rich person not to horde is like telling the sky not to rain.  Sometimes it will listen but not because of anything you said.

[ali]

introduce better education / availability of birth control for a start??? who said anything about stopping people having sex?

and its not about stopping people buying things, but more about getting people to think about what they're buying, where it came from, how it was made, not using a billion plastic bags everytime you go to the supermarket, that sort of thing.  i'm not saying we have to re-write human nature, we just need to step back & think about what we're doing & how we're doing it for a change

i never thought that we would get rid of plastic bags, but due to some clever thinking & marketing, in melbourne we've managed to majorly cut down plastic bag usage at supermarkets. there is even a town near where i grew up that simply doesn't have them anymore. you just can't get them. now tell me that's not environmental issues changing human behaviour patterns, and that was not difficult at all

[tomEisenbraun]

Dude, overcrowding may be trouble in China, but if you look at America, think about how many families you know that are having only one child, and later in life because it's more "convenient" that way. We're losing big familes like crazy. I think somewhere in Europe, the death rate was above the birth rate at some point. I'm not sure on that statistic, but I'm pretty sure it's true. A lot of people have been having small families because of convenience, and we're raising a TON of greedy only children as a result.

But I guess thats not part of overcrowding.

[ratsprayer]

to turn the thread around once more...

it's fucking amazing me how all the talk the day after the speech is about alternative energy.  i know people who normally loathe bush who are clapping like seals because of the talk about hydrogen-powered cars.  its a smoke and mirrors trick.  he couldnt talk about social security, everyone knows thats already fucked up, so they had to think of something to draw the focus away from the war and such.  

[aMillionDreams]

once again, I agree with ratsprayer.  He isn't going to do shit to slow down oil companies because that who he represents.  He's just trying to get us talking about something other than his wire-tapping bullshit that would have gotten Clinton impeached, which no one has mentioned yet.   Like I said, Bush is a lot smarter than most give him credit for.  And so the thread comes full circle...

[ali]

how often does he do one of these speeches?

sorry about ranting a bit before, i do believe in this stuff. plus i probably needed a good rant  ;D

[ycartrob]

once again, I agree with ratsprayer.  He isn't going to do shit to slow down oil companies because that who he represents.  He's just trying to get us talking about something other than his wire-tapping bullshit that would have gotten Clinton impeached, which no one has mentioned yet.   Like I said, Bush is a lot smarter than most give him credit for.  And so the thread comes full circle...

and, Bush is surrounded by very smart people with tons and tons of money.

[EC]

Okay.  Perhaps the good thing about whatever he said last night is that it's got people talking.

aMD and others, I don't believe it's part of human nature to be greedy.  The thing about us is that we have heads, and we can use those heads.  I think the human nature argument is the same as blaming everything on God, and what it does is takes away from personal responsibility.

Regardless of whether or not the greenhouse effect is causing global warming, we at least realize that we're acting like sonsofbitches in regards to waste.  And I mean waste on a physical and a metaphysical level.  I think WE'RE smarter than we give ourselves credit for.

I also think that showing by example is the best way to do things.  I get inspired by people when they do something good, and it makes me want to do the same.  I learn about myself by watching other people.  I recognize that sounds naive, but we don't need the pessimism that overpowers talks like this.  All it does is makes you feel defeated.  Live your life well and learn from your mistakes.

That is the philosophy of the EC.  8)

[aMillionDreams]

EC, I like your philosophy.  And I know I sound like a horrible pessimist, but I'm really trying to say that this waste and global warming talk is also quite similiar to the claims of right-wingers.  The world is going to end so change your ways; what you do is wrong so change or suffer.  I think we should just live life and keep dancin. damn the torpedos.

Ali, no sweat on the rant.  I was egging you on.  Do forgive me.

[primushead]

I know everyone is gonna LOVE me after this, but I actually voted for Bush back in '04 :-[

Don't get me wrong - I'm registered independent and have alot of conservative and alot of liberal views.  I simply voted for him because I didn't want to change leadership in time of war.  Plus, I just didn't like Kerry.  

[ali]

hey AMD no probs. it's been a while since i had a good rant about something! i feel much better now  ;D

i don't think anyone's called me "similar" to a right-winger before though.... i'm in favour of a holistic approach to life, not a black & white "we're all sinners & goin to hell" type of thing

i like your philosophy too EC - mine would probably add learning about myself by learning about the world around me, not just people, and would involve a lot of chocolate consumption

[Mr. T.]

This has been a great discussion.
For people who want to know what's really going on with nature and stuff, I propose that you read the following article: It's the best I've read about the environment, the weather and global warming in particular.

I know it's a bit long, but please do read it. It's so interesting
(and a little frightening too imo)

enjoy

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18616

Any reactions?

[ycartrob]

The planet goes through natural progressions of heating and cooling. We have history to prove this.