Okay, i guess you could say "told ya so"

[tomEisenbraun]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

this is pretty out of whack. i think i'm starting to see why people are very very pissed at Bush and his administration. As much as I dislike the whole left/right system, I'm still much more right than left, but this has made me think twice about the Bush administration. I'd still like to think he's a pawn, I can't see him being smart enough to pull all of this off out of his own head, but i can understand him having some heavyweights aorund him who pull some serious weight.

good lord, this makes things confusing. i've always figured that we were better off with Bush, because if Gore was in office when 9/11 happened, we probably would have been a lot more passive and not stood up, or something. But it seems that if Gore had been in office, it's beginning to seem as though none of this would have happened.

Gah.

So here's close-minded conservative Eisey for ya...

hmmm....rats? meg? conAway?

[wellfleet]

this comes without an iota of sarcasm from a hard-left, ultra-liberal (shocking!)...
tom, i'm really sorry that you are feeling confused or sad. becoming disillusioned may be the very least fun thing about growing up. it's a painful process and it can make you question many things in your life.

i think the lesson to take from this video is that it *speculates* on current events using historical data. but cuba wasn't attacked and if you watch "the fog of war" you can learn some incredible reasons about why not. the truth is that think tanks come up with diabolical plans like this all the time. mostly, it's people thinking out loud about "hey, what if we did this..." mostly, it never comes to fruition.

i would tell you to question everything, always ask yourself who will benefit from this information? what is the agenda? who is set to profit from this being true? sometimes these things turn out to be true, sometimes not. i wouldn't let one video shake you, i would encourage you to seek the most information you can. any set of facts can be set up in such a way as to confirm a preconceived theory. i would encoyrage gathering facts first and seeing what they suggest...

(((((((VIRTUAL HUG))))))))))

[EC]

Tom, one of my favourite things about you is that you think about things.  I already told you this, but you're not afraid to say the things that you think (even when you know that other people don't think the same way and people will probably jump on you), plus, you're also not afraid to change your mind.

Those things are going to give your life such service.  :)

[ratsprayer]

i wonder why i was the first person you mentioned?   ;)

anyway, i agree with wellfleet (read that again, thats what i said).  its all a part of "growing up" and reaffirming beliefs and tearing down old ones.  im constantly re-examining how i feel about this and that issue.  there are good and bad things about the internet being such a solid informationt source.  theres a lot of good stuff getting out there that would have never reached the public otherwise, but theres a lot of misinformation out there to sift through.  im certainly alienated from a lot of people here and in the world in general about my beliefs, but its all about what you think is right.  i believe ive put in the efforts and energy to look at various viewpoints (hell i even watch fox news some times) to give myself a fair palette of information to judge from.  

i certainly think bush is a pawn, a very small pawn at that.  however, i think hes realised his position in the scheme of things, and he is a dangerous megalomaniac.  i think things are turning, more people are becoming aware of whats going on, but that just means the powers that be are going to push back harder.  things are going to get much worse before they get better, but eventually we'll get these bums out of power, all around the world.  thats my hope and belief, anyway.

i take the manic street preachers song title to heart:  if you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

tom, youre a christian, and by far one of the coolest ones i know.  not to sound stereotypical or judgemental, but youre not like most of them out there, and thats a good thing.  its never a bad thing to start believing one thing and find out you believe something totally different.  you got a good head on your shoulders, and youll do whats right for you, and thats all that matters.  rock on!   ;D

[ycartrob]

not to say that the whole "documentary" is untrue, but some of the information is made up.

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/loose_change.html

[ali]

i agree with what the others have said too, tom. but please don't feel you have to apologise for your thoughts, opinions or beliefs - they are what make you, you. and even though i haven't actually met you, you seem pretty cool.  putting your thoughts out there, and continually questioning what you believe in is a good, and brave thing to do.

i do agree with you about being confused about the whole right/left political debate... i have to say i don't know that much about american politics (really we only get to see "highlights" i guess - when bush says something silly, or when something major happens) but i do feel frustrated with australian politics a lot of the time. i don't know if the divide is stronger in the US between the two "sides", but here, generally, there doesn't seem to be any huge political or philosophical difference between the two. so its frustrating if you disagree with the current government for a whole range of reasons, but there is no real alternative. and no matter which party is in government, the things that need to be changed (attitudes to the environment, racism in society, education and poverty) are brushed over. something that majorly upset me at our last election was the amount of change that was promised in the lead-up, then once the government was re-elected, they promptly went back on their promises, as they weren't "core" promises. when it gets down to the point where you are qualifying which promises to your nation are important for social change & health, and which promises were just lies to get yourselves re-elected, then there is something wrong with the system.

rats, i was a bit sad to read you feel that you are sometimes alienated because of your beliefs - maybe i'm just a hopeless optimist, but i feel that diversity of beliefs and thought is what makes us interesting. if we were all the same, all thought the same, and felt the same, what would we talk about? but i guess that is probably a bit of an idealistic presumption (that we all ACCEPT each others diversity)... but you do have to stand by, and stand up for your beliefs.

 :)

[wellfleet]

ali, even thousands of miles away, it seems as if australian political struggles echo those all over. in north america it feels like the only choice is no choice at all. it's trying to pick the lesser of two evils, knowing full well that once someone reaches the upper echelons of power, they are so bought and paid for that their responsibility to the people all but disappears.
a mayor of a city can be held accountable much more easily than a governor, a senator, or a president. it's discouraging. but ratsprayer is right (hey rat, let's make it three in a row!!) and that the tide is turning. i think people all over the world are starting to exert their power as decision makers. one can only hope this turns out for the better of all mankind. i'm trying to remain optimistic, too.

[tomEisenbraun]

i'm slowly making my way through that article, but in retrospect, it does seem as though a lot of that could easily have been very contrived. very thought-provoking though.

i wish there was a way to have the whole truth of it laid down for all of us to see.

thank you for the comment rats. i've been learning a lot recently that close-mindedness is a one-way to ticket to just being an ass toward people, and when we're called to love, being an immovable jackass drives you into the ground. there's some things that i will not budge on, and under attack will defend to my death, Christ being number one. but i completely understand the importance of needing to be informed about all sides.

i've got a lot floating in my brain, but not enough brainpower to coherently put it down right now. maybe tomorrow. hopefully. thank you guys for what you've said. that said, i'm not as confused as i might have come off to be. especially learning that a lot of that video was fudged. after i read that article i'll post what i think again. it's certainly a confusing matter though.

you guys are awesome.

[Mr. T.]

I'm in awe after watching that documentary and reading through the article. As one CNN reporter said after he saw the Twin Towers collapse: "There are no words..."

I'm sure of one thing though: we may live in a scary world, but as long as there are people like you who know who to deal with each others opinions, beliefs and arguments, there's hope for a better world.

I know it cheesy, but hey, cheesyness never hurt no one  ;)

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

tom, i've hardly found you to be close minded on just about anything.  the fact that you openly espouse a more balanced opinion on this and pretty much anything else we've discussed here tells me that you're not as "right" as you'd believe.  those terms really mean nothing at this juncture of history, especially in regards to the issues at hand.

take the "political compass" test and see where your results put you in the context of historical/political figures...

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/

you may be surprised by the results....

also, in regards to Bush, that whole memo-to-tony-blair-let's-preemptively-attack-Iraq-regardless-of-the-facts is more of a "I told you so" than anything else at this point....here it is, in black and white, the proof that this person is willing to do anything to advance the "agenda" of the apocolypse.  impeachment isn't nearly enough of a punishment, IMHO...

[ratsprayer]

impeachment isn't nearly enough of a punishment, IMHO...

tar and feathers, bitches!   :D

[ratsprayer]

rats, i was a bit sad to read you feel that you are sometimes alienated because of your beliefs - maybe i'm just a hopeless optimist, but i feel that diversity of beliefs and thought is what makes us interesting. if we were all the same, all thought the same, and felt the same, what would we talk about? but i guess that is probably a bit of an idealistic presumption (that we all ACCEPT each others diversity)... but you do have to stand by, and stand up for your beliefs.

:)

i guess i didnt use the right choice of words there.  i dont particularly think its a bad thing to be alienated.  i do have some very alternate beliefs to most people, and im fully aware of it.  i do think diversity is the cornerstone to debate and basically anything positive in the world.  i was basically trying to say i can understand being confused and very disillusioned when it comes to trying to figure out things.  like anyone else, i have some very strong convictions about certain subjects that id fight to the death defending, and its frustrating to say the least some times when it seems im on the outside looking in.  i like to consider myself a "cautious optimist"  ;D and like i said before, i do think things are going to get much much worse before they get better, but i see the world pulling out of this in the future and becoming a totally different place than any of us has ever known before, and thats a good thing.  power to the people!

[corey]

[marktwain]

impeachment isn't nearly enough of a punishment, IMHO...

Too bad the cards are stacked...  if we impeach the moron, we are stuck with "Ol' Gunner" Cheney.

And to Tom:  the fact that your mind has changed is proof that you're a thinker.  I just hope we all can keep such open minds, and not stick blindly to a party or politician like it's our favorite basketball team.

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

that is, IF he's impeached and convicted.  odds are, despite the facts, that he wouldn't be.

too bad we don't have a "vote of confidence" action or "recall" for this government.  now that would be nice....

[tomEisenbraun]

thats what it came up with...so i guess i'm kind of left? moderate? we need a revamping of this system.

that said, this is all very interesting, because it means that a lot of what i expected isn't quite what i thought it should be. which is fun, but also slightly complicated, because our country's recent political elections have been crappy candidates, and it'd be nice to attach good faces to a few different ideas on this system.

i'm actually getting excited about being able to vote in the next election. :)

[Jaimoe]

Political labels are all relative depending on where you live: i.e. country and/or how you were raised. I find many Americans who call themselves liberal, lean more right when compared to Canadian liberals. A moderate American would be looked at by Canadians as right-wing. I know I'm generalizing and I don't want to raise the ire of my American cousins to the south, but Canadians know Americans better than any other nation on the planet - and certainly waaaaaay better than they know us.

I'm not really making any comment regarding Tom. This thread just kinda got me thinking.

[Jaimoe]

And I certainly don't dislike all conservative ideology and values either. I don't even care for some liberal ideals either. I just voted in a provincial by-election  for the Toronto-Danforth region of Toronto last night. I voted for the New Democrat Party, which is firmly rooted in socialist theories and ideologies.

[wellfleet]

tom, conaway's suggestion that you would be surprised by your results are so dead on. we're manipulated into thinking that we're one thing or the other. for example, if you're a religious Christian who is against abortion, people assume that you're a Republican or Right wing. but what if you also believe that social welfare and free medical care is a right and you don't eat meat? does that make you a leftie?
these labels only leave room for black or white, but that's not how most people think. i'm very socially liberal, but to the shock of many, i'm against gun control even though i don't own a gun, don't hunt and don't intend to, ever.
give yourself room and be brave enough to believe things that are considered outside the party line. it makes you a complete human being, which, i think is clear, most people on here feel that you are. and not that you need anyone's validation, but i find it comforting to know that few people are very sure of themselves 100% of the time.

[ratsprayer]

i cant get the picture to copy and paste here, but my compass is  economic left/right -6.50 and authoritarian/libertarian -6.31.  if that doesnt make any sense, well im south of gandhi.    ;)