which bands do you think have sold out?

[chris]

Ok, I know that this is a bit of an anachronistic expression these days, but there was a time when bands were maligned for supposedly selling out to garner mainstream appeal.  Being somewhat steeped in indie music for as long as I can remember, it has often been a struggle for me to enjoy some of my favorite bands once they really hit it big.  I've tried not to be too much of a snob about it, but there have been times when I've become quite annoyed when someone with somewhat dubious tastes in music (sorry snobbery again) has gushed about this new band they just heard, when in fact the band has been around for a long time and they've just recently achieved some sort of mainstream success (modest mouse comes to mind).  Anyway, I know that most bands that attain this new level of exposure after years of slogging about in obscurity, do so without sacrificing their principles and music.  And when these bands get popular I try to continue to support,  listen to, and enjoy them (despite being a bit unsettled by some of their new fans).  Bands that come to mind include: Wilco, Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Flaming Lips and Modest Mouse.  However, there are other bands that, in my opinion, were once quite good, but either in order to attain mainstream success, or in other cases having tasted a bit of mainstream success first, alter their music to fit into the less esoteric sensibilities of the general listening public.  They seem to lose sight of the art behind their music, and become more interested in money or simply appealing to the mainstream by dumbing their music down, or making it derivative (for me the Red Hot Chili Peppers come to mind, John Frusciante's talent and credibility aside and maybe Jane's Addiction).  Of course there are other bands that become popular while not pandering to the masses, but at some point their music just stops being good, maybe they run out of ideas (for me this would be REM).  So who else out there can think of some bands that in their opinion would fall into one of these categories (assuming you find these categories valid)?  Sorry if I offended anyone with the RHCP or Jane's Addiction comment.

[wellfleet]

since you're a relative newcomer to the board i think i'll go easy on this one...  ;)

sellout accusations start to fly the second a so-called indie band gets exposure at sxsw or in spin or mojo or whatever... the sellout stuff really hits the fan when the band is featured on a tv show, a commercial, a movie...
to me, the concept of selling out is just ridiculous from the start. if radiohead and wilco and the lips wanted to make their music available as a charity, well, they would. but they are musicians, and as such, need to somehow eek out a living doing what they do. if thom yorke wants to perform for free and not sign with a label or be featured on a soundtrack, that's cool, but he may have to do some construction in his downtime to cover basics like food and shelter.
i think people who tend to be concerned with a band's undiscovered status are sometimes trying to assert their own too-cool-for-schoolness. why begrudge a band's sudden, meteoric success? i remember working in a record store when the last modest mouse album came out. our company, in all its wisdom, was touting it on the "fresh new bands" board. nevermind that they had been recording together for 15 years. i've always maintained that there is no inherent virtue in being a starving artist and that, especially for modest mouse, it's nice to sell a million records when up to now the best you could hope for was 100,000.
what's wrong with mainstream success as long as you're making good music? if mmj became hugely popular, went platinum and got true recognition i would be thrilled for them and for everyone who will get to enjoy their music in the future.
you don't get extra cred for starving to death for your art. giving the people what they want, so long as the artist enjoys the product and can stand behind it, is ok.
chris, i realize you don't want some phi delta asswipe singing along to "iron lung", but it doesn't make you less cool. i promise.  :-*

[sweatboard]

I worry about bands getting mainstream success because it tends to make it difficult for them.  Watch radioheads "meeting people is easy" dvd.  Once you achieve that kind of success you basically throw yourself in the fire.  Rem and Radiohead are great examples of bands that can stand in the fire with a middle finger in the air while still not bending or breaking (and it takes a very strong band to be able to pull this off).  When I say breaking I mean just litteraly going insane from all the bullshit that comes along with that kind of exposure.  By not bending I mean still going about making music and playing shows the way they did when they first found that they had something to say and that music was thier outlet, you know when it was enough for them even when they were playing thier songs to a wall.  As for Wilco.  I think if any band want's to take lessons in how you go about building a carrear in music they should study wilco long and hard.  They have done it the right way in my book.  I wouldn't call wilco sold out or mainstream by any means.  The music industry is a KILLER.  I understand bands wanting to make a living but thier is a difference between makeing a living which a band like MMJ does and being rich and famous beyond comprehension.  Pearl Jam and Nirvana are good examples of bands that were able to stand in the fire long enough to get some good music into the mainstream but both eventually cracked, Kurt killed himself, and Pearl Jam completley withdrew themselves from the mainstream scene (it was intentioal folks, it wasn't cause they started sucking)  Of course we prefer to see our favorite bands in venues designed for live music and not venues designed for football or hockey and we prefer our music to hit our souls rather than make us want to buy products on tv, or buy certain clothing etc. etc.  but thier are plenty of people out there that can make money off music besides the ones creating it and they make for dangerous waters.  Modest Mouse sold a million records and I had to see them in a shity venue stuck in the back row of seats while most of the people around me talked to each other or on cell phones but you know what while most people left that show going "I didn't know Modest Mouse was so weird and Crappy" thier were a handful of people that left that show going "Holy Shit, I didn't know music like this existed and they went out and bought the entire Modest Mouse catalouge and started getting turned on to other good bands.  If it hadn't been for bands like Pearl Jam and Nirvana hitting the radio when I was in highschool I'd probably be listening to Richard Marx, Creed and Bryan Adams right now and thinking it was pretty damn good.  In the end we need those bands like Radiohead and REM to brave the fire it is certainly not an easy thing to do, but I do think it's brave.  Now if your Creed it's just greed and your just a tool for recording industry executives.  Thier is no question in my mind that MMJ could be all over TRL and selling lunch pails and action figures of themselves right now if they really wanted to.  Thier are plenty of people in the music industry dieng to do it for them.            

[wellfleet]

uuuuhhh.... a jim james action figure??!! i'll buy one! especially one with extra-long hair you can style. are you kidding me? everyone on the forum would buy one for sure... you'd have the coolest kid in daycare when all the kids are playing with spongebob and your little genius is playing with a jim james doll. rawk!

[ManNamedTruth]

I don't think any of the bands you've listed have sold out in any way. RHCP for instance, has been around for a very long time and have been through a lot of shit with all the different members and the addictions and whatnot. A lot of bands don't stay consistent with great albums everytime when your around as long as those guys. Maybe they mellowed out a little on their last one but that happens with age I guess(the zephyr song is amazing, by the way). Modest Mouse had a couple minor hits but I wouldn't exactly say that their a huge band that has all these teenybopper fans and shit. I think once you get to a certain maturity level bullshit like the stuff your complaining about just doesn't matter anymore. I haven't so much uttered the phrase 'sell out' in years. Thats all I gotta say. Listen to music cause ya like it, its so simple.

[sweatboard]

As for the Red Hot Chilli Peppers.......Thanks to John Fruciante coming back the last two albums are my favorites along with Blood Sugar Sex Magic.  The Chili Peppers are an AWESOME band and they can rock an Arena with authority.  I wouldn't call them sellouts they have what I call crossover appeal.  Meaning they can appeal to die hard music fans and people just interested in listening to mainstream radio stations.  More power to them, they have a great sense of humor and that's one key reason they are able to exisist peacefuly with the amount of exposure they get.  If MMJ reach that kind of level of appeal I think Jim's and the bands sense of humor would carry them through as well.  I mean if you go to the interviews and radio promos and award shows etc. etc. with a pissy attitude your just going to blow yourself out, I think the key is to just make fun of it all.      

[ali]

Listen to music cause ya like it, its so simple.

i'm with you on this one...

i'm a music snob, have to admit, but reading the first post i honestly couldn't think of a band that i like/love that i would classified as having "sold out". i maybe don't love U2 quite as passionately as i did when i was 13, i may feel slightly differently about some of their songs etc, but i don't think of them as having sold out... plus, some bands would be dead boring if they never changed...

i'd be first in the queue to get a jj action doll!!! particularly if you had the short/long hair options...  ;D

the only thing i'll say about what i hate when a band reaches a certain level of success - i HATE having to go see a band i love in a godawful ginormous sporting venue. it's probably quite snobby, but i just have to draw the line there. radiohead & U2 have been the only exceptions so far  in about 12 years of gig-going (both venues really were crap, but i'd never had the opportunity to see either live before, so i went) but ben harper playing a stadium? geez, no thanks.

smaller or even mid-size venues are just SO much better

[chris]

Just to clarify   :), I didn't say Wilco, REM, Flaming Lips, Radiohead, Modest Mouse, or Pearl Jam sold out.  I actually said quite the opposite.  I thought I was clear when I said that they all became quite popular (to varying degrees) without sacrificing their principles or their music.  I simply said that I'm sometimes ambivalent about some of their new fans, especially at concerts or when they're touting them as a new band.  Of course they deserve the success they achieved, and I'll plan on continuing to listen to them.  I did make a disparaging remark about the RHCP, but that's just my opinion  :).  I was just wondering if anyone thought there were any bands out there that truly had "sold out", in other words they changed their music, style, principles, etc. to garner mainstream success.

[sweatboard]

Elton John?

I really really love his early stuff and I really really hate his later stuff.  The last album was decent.  

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

all artists are sellouts.  they're peddling their wares in a larger market, to sell them to the people.  the more the merrier.  everyone from the simplest pottery maker to Madonna are sellouts.  

the idea of "selling out" really stems from a critical mass point in the common consiousness of fans of a particular band.  think of it as "jumping the shark".  for some, a band can jump the shark as soon as they stop releasing 7 inch singles.  for others, it's when they have a ringtone, custom potholders, Podcasts, and a talk show interview stint all in the same week.  it's all about the varying degrees in between those extremes.

here's an example that will blow your mind:  Led Zep.  Despite signing the most lucrative contract in music history (at the time), they never released a US single, were panned by critics, shunned interviews (in the early days)...and sold a shitload of records and toured mercilessly.  At what point did they sell out?  Never, IMHO-they did exactly what they wanted to do-sell a kagillion records, make boatloads of money, and define a whole new level of success.

[EC]

all artists are sellouts.  they're peddling their wares in a larger market, to sell them to the people.  the more the merrier.  everyone from the simplest pottery maker to Madonna are sellouts.  

the idea of "selling out" really stems from a critical mass point in the common consiousness of fans of a particular band.  think of it as "jumping the shark".  for some, a band can jump the shark as soon as they stop releasing 7 inch singles.  for others, it's when they have a ringtone, custom potholders, Podcasts, and a talk show interview stint all in the same week.  it's all about the varying degrees in between those extremes.

here's an example that will blow your mind:  Led Zep.  Despite signing the most lucrative contract in music history (at the time), they never released a US single, were panned by critics, shunned interviews (in the early days)...and sold a shitload of records and toured mercilessly.  At what point did they sell out?  Never, IMHO-they did exactly what they wanted to do-sell a kagillion records, make boatloads of money, and define a whole new level of success.

Hmmm.  Well, I've come to see that everybody thinks about art differently.  A lot of artists don't have any idea how to go about their career past the music.  As a good friend said to me once "Artists aren't good business people, usually.  That's why managers have careers."  That's the same for everybody who's doing something artistic.

I was having a talk the other day with a friend who's a painter, and he was talking about how much he hates interviews because he never knows what to say, and he's just trying to be himself, and they make it sound like a different conversation than the one he had.  So he decided that he was going to create a character for himself for those times when he needs to talk about his art to people outside of his friends.  And we had a big talk about whether or not that was "selling out", if that makes sense.  

There are people who know that what they do can be marketed, and they know how to market it.  Does that make them a sellout?  There are people who don't know the first thing about how to get their art into the world, and so they get someone to help them (ie a manager, or an agent or whatever) - and that person will be pushing them with marketing strategies, etc.  Does that make them a sellout?

I think that John's point about critical mass is interesting.  I think that nobody could have a clue as to whether or not a person/band is a sellout except those people themselves.  All it boils down to is this question you ask yourself at the end of the day:  "Am I cool with me?"  If the answer is yes, you're doin' good.  :)  And it really doesn't matter what anybody else thinks.

[sweatboard]

Well said Meg.

[EC]

Well said Meg.

Thanks, animal.  you're fuzzy and cute and badass.  ;)

[ycartrob]

To me, sell out means you have the pursuit of money and success over the "integrity" of the music.

It hit home for me in the mid 80's when Eric Clapton broke ranks and did his Michelob Light commercial. At the time, there was no rock star doing that, at all. It was foreign. And we all thought Clapton was a sell out b/c he then was associated with "the system". He was associated with "them", rich, corporate fat cats. Today, it's hard to discern the rich fat cats with the musicians and visa versa. Rage is marketed. Punk is marketed. Grunge is marketed. Hell, we have heroin chic for God's sakes.

These days, any band can become associated with the man. MMJ and their Coors Light commercial, Spoon has a song from their new album on a car commercial, as does Kings of Leon. Today, that changes nothing for me, however, in the climate of the 80's, it would have.

It's funny how we hold up the Beatles and Elvis (and now Cash) to these holier than thou statuses and those guys were all appearing wherever and whenever they could, for the buck. They all had movies and dolls and commercials,  bedsheets, etc...They all "sold out" big time, right? I'd say they didn't sell out at all b/c their music remained pretty good (Elvis going down hill was drug addiction, not selling out).

ZZ Top is my prime example of a band that sold out. The beards, the hats, the videos. Go back and listen to Tres Hombres or Fandango, those guys ROCKED! Then they became like these caricatures of themselves, and it's my feeling the music declined (but then that's a whole 'nother debate b/c if you see ZZ Top live, 5-1 wants to hear Sharp Dressed Man more then Francine). And we're both right, right?

You know, back when I was a teen, you waited all week to see rock bands on The Midnight Special, every Friday night. You got and hour and a half (I think) of rock and pop, and even if it was The Bay City Rollers, it was great. And bands like Fleetwood Mac, who, in their prime, were very talented and cutting edge songwriters and musicians (and doing enough blow to kill a small village) were on and it was  G R E A T. There wasn't this mindset of "sell out", there was this mindset of "Finally! Live music! In Jackson, Mississippi!!" But during the week? Nothing. No MTV, no VHI, no BET. no CMT, no news, no pictures, no interesting tidbits, nada. Nothing. I can remember getting a picture of Jimmy Page from Creem magazine and cherishing it as if it were gold. I had that picture for 4 months till I found another. Can you imagine? (or do some of you remember when the rock world was feared, not embraced?)

It's funny b/c I know if some of the cool bands from back then were around today, a lot of them would jump on the technology to market themselves and make money.

And you know, the muse does dry up for some. The passion fizzles for some. Others succumb to the money and fame. Others get bored. It's not right to categorize all as "sell outs". Lou Reed is the epitome of a non-sell out (IMO) and he did an American Express commercial?

What I think is funny is bands who suck and blame their obscurity (and it is blame, I mean, who starts a band to be unknown and unpopular? right) on their not "selling out".

ok?
OK!

[primushead]

The Black Eyed Peas sold out bad.  They lost all street cred with me years ago.

[sweatboard]

Great stuff Tracy.  My friend played me some early ZZ Top the other day and I was like.......HOLY SHIT I Had NO IDEA!!!!  I need to check out those two albums you mentioned.

[primushead]

But during the week? Nothing. No MTV, no VHI, no BET. no CMT

It's funny that you mention that, because during the week I rarely see music on these stations, or news about bands.  Well, except CMT.  Even though the music is pretty awful, It's always refreshing to see a music video  :)

I know more than enough now about celebreality, though.  

[Jaimoe]

Selling-out will never go away:

Any artist that blatantly changes their sound to fit a current trend, a trend/sound they followed, could be considered sell-outs. This is an old example: The Stones circa 1978-80  hopped on the disco trend. Eric Clapton - a man who left  The Yardbirds due to their explorations with psychadelic rock - sold himself and the loyalty of his fans out many times over the years. Remember his second commercial comeback in 1985 with the Phil Collins produced crap album Behind The Sun, or  the pop-shit follow-up August? Note: his first publicized comeback was in the early 70's when he re-emerged from heroin addiction. Of course, Eric wasn't done. He collaborated with a then hot producer Babyface in the late 90's for some deadful records. Eric's "artistic" decisions make it nearly impossible  to be a long-term fan of the man.

[wellfleet]

right on tracy and john and EC...
artists are salespeople, they sell themselves and their talents. i don't mean this in the pejorative. if you're a singer, you sell your voice and charisma and hope people respond. tracy made a good point about the beatles, who absolutely sold every kind of merch under the sun and were marketed aggressively. AND they still put out classic after classic.

when i think about sellouts, i think about bands who sold their soul, not bands who just happened to click at the right time. to me, RHCP didn't sell their soul or their musical integrity. i am 100% in agreement about black eyed peas. they used to make good club songs, but also very politically-conscious, socially-aware songs. i don't see anything like that on "monkey business", unless "my humps" is secretly really about saving camels from extinction or something.
i also think about sugar ray, which is arguably a crap band, but when "fly" became a huge hit, many fans were turned off by the rest of the album because it wasn't like the hit single. so sugar ray became all about pimping mark mcgrath and his dimples, and making middling, light music without a hint of edge...
i think when a band becomes a cult of personality and image instead of a vehicle for good music, their true integrity is in trouble.
i agree with tracy that in today's realm, getting exposure via different media is simply embracing the times, not necessarily selling out. i'm still surprised when i hear "love sick" from time out of mind on a victoria's secret commercial, and get really sad when "come together" came on our changer once when my husband's daughter was visiting and she automatically associated it with microsoft or whatever... but i will be the first one to say that i've discovered bands i'd never heard of through commericals' musical choice... i think it's cool that target has used the raveonettes and badly drawn boy, and when my husband was the vp of pr for nissan, he was proud of the music choices in the commercials...
anyway...
like EC said, if you can go to sleep at night with your soul and gut intact, it's all good...


[glb]and also... ali... you were missed, glad to have you back!!!!!  :D[/glb]

[EC]

right on tracy and john and EC...

like EC said, if you can go to sleep at night with your soul and gut intact, it's all good...

Well said Meg.

I also agree with Meg

Do y'all see how I'm right all the time?  That's what I love about this board.  You people are smart.



;)