The Economy (again)

[ycartrob]

so, the governement finally "fixed" the economy (DOW up 900+) and now we can rest assured that no matter what anyone does, the government will bail us out. Are we approaching socialism?

Some of my heroes, Lou Dobbs, Dave Ramsey, Ralph Nader, all suggested that the government stay out of this; that you don't fix a capiatlistic problem with socialistic tenants.

Short term fix, but it will happen again b/c the consequences were not great enough to deter further corruption. And so the story goes.

[TheBigChicken]

did you hear Paul Newman passed away...

[Angry Ewok]

Are we approaching socialism?

Yes.

[ycartrob]

did you hear Paul Newman passed away...

I heard that. I saw his frozen pizza line in the grocery store this morning and I felt sad; I felt sad that we all just continue on with our lives as great people pass away and we are left, inevitably, with the memory of their great work etched in our minds and/or souls and on cartoon caricatures in the frozen food aisle.

I am pinning my hopes on the soul journey after death; the mindless thrust into the unknown. And when I say "unknown" I don't mean the let-me-explain-God-and-the-unkown-to-you unknown; rather, the true unknown.

The Clearing by Morgan Farley

I am clearing a space –
here, where the trees stand back.
I am making a circle so open
the moon will fall in love
and stroke these grasses with her silver.

I am setting stones in the four directions,
stones that have called my name
from mountaintop and riverbeds, canyons and mesas.
Here I will stand with my hands empty,
mind gaping under the moon.

I know there is another way to live.
When I find it, the angels
will cry out in rapture,
each cell of my body
will be a rose, a star.

If something seized my life tonight,
if a sudden wind swept through me,
changing everything,
I would not resist.
I am ready for whatever comes

But I think it will be
something small, an animal
padding out from the shadows,
or a word spoken so softly
I hear it inside.

It is dark out here, and silent.
The moon is stone.
I am alone with my longing.
Nothing is happening
but the next breath, and the next. . . .

[bearass]

i thought they were expecting a rebound today because it was columbus day and a lot of big wigs werent trading

[The Drake]

Drudge's lead photo right now:



Yep, business as usual.

Hey, wasn't Walt Disney a communist?  Answer: yes, but he named names like a real patriot!

[Penny Lane]

'letting the market fix itself' is ridiculous ---the global economy is/was falling into a tailspin--you think a bottom out means you'll have to eat more soup or go to the movies less? Things are not fixed and will never be that great again---but c'mon---sometimes socialism needs to be injected into a capitalistic society--didn't the free market get us into this mess?

[MMJ_fanatic]

This plan was the biggest piece of shit and all of Washington (save those who voted against it) need a reality check.  I mean if it was a piece of crap the 1st time how is it any better with billions of pork piled on the original?  Sheesh >:(

[red]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQeesZ4rVw0[/media]

[aMillionDreams]

It's down already, K. that was quick.

[red]

It's down already, K. that was quick.

Hmm, that's strange.  Maybe they don't allow direct linking or something?

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQeesZ4rVw0

[ycartrob]

'letting the market fix itself' is ridiculous ---the global economy is/was falling into a tailspin--you think a bottom out means you'll have to eat more soup or go to the movies less? Things are not fixed and will never be that great again---but c'mon---sometimes socialism needs to be injected into a capitalistic society--didn't the free market get us into this mess?

Greed got us into this mess, not the free market. That's like saying it was the pig's fault I got a heart attack, not b/c I ate pork 3x a day and didn't excercise.

There are plenty of people who study the economy who disagree with you. Here's 1 of the 166 academic economist who signed a letter to congressional leaders opposing the government bailout.plan. http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/14/miron.banks/index.html

You actually think anything will change? Nothing will change and the next "crash" will just involve more money for a bail out.

At some point we will have to really pay and that's the only way anyone will learn. I'd rather do it now.

I can guarantee you that the only thing that will come from this is the fact that no matter how deep you get into corruption, the government will bail you out. No other lesson will be learned.

But it's done now; we'll just wait for it to happen again.

[purvis9876]

"Greed got us into this mess, not the free market"

Agreed.

[Penny Lane]

greed is a factor--but  so is lack of oversight and many other things--don't try to oversimplify things--and yes, this bill wasn't good--i can't defend it but they needed to act---didn't they wait a few years to act after the stock market crash? when unemployment was already up to 25%? ugh i can't talk about this anymore.

[lime1968]

I admit I know next to nothing about economics... but both capitalism and communism sound pretty good on paper. In practice, however, I don't think either really work in modern society. Is not socialism something we really should consider or is it a legacy of pro-capitalist propaganda in this country that prevents that discussion from even getting a fair shake? I don't know. Call me out.

You know, that's your answer for everything, Dude. And let me point out something, capitalism is not- look at our current situation with that camelfucker in Iraq- capitalism is not something to hide behind.

[Angry Ewok]

Is not socialism something we really should consider or is it a legacy of pro-capitalist propaganda in this country that prevents that discussion from even getting a fair shake? I don't know. Call me out.

We're headed to socialism, so whether or not you really want it, you'll be getting it. And every part of it. Propaganda will be the least of your concerns, though. Unless, of course, you think you'd be happy living in China? North Korea? Soviet Union? Cuba?

Has anyone read the book Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg?

[Penny Lane]

Is not socialism something we really should consider or is it a legacy of pro-capitalist propaganda in this country that prevents that discussion from even getting a fair shake? I don't know. Call me out.

We're headed to socialism, so whether or not you really want it, you'll be getting it. And every part of it. Propaganda will be the least of your concerns, though. Unless, of course, you think you'd be happy living in China? North Korea? Soviet Union? Cuba?

Has anyone read the book Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg?

brad --what do you call Medicaid? Medicare? SSI? SSDI? Worker's Comp? Free lunches in school? libraries? govt subsidies? we're not headed to socialism, we HAVE socialism--mccain wants school vouchers (i think) obama wants to expand health coverage..neither candidate is reducing govt anytime soon...it's all how you package things.

speaking of books, brad you might enjoy (or tracy) reading PJ O'Rourke--he's like the klosterman of economics. Good stuff! if you hate socialism--you'll love his take on european economies (he breaks it down in sweden-they actually only work 25 days a year LOL)

[Angry Ewok]

brad --what do you called Medicaid? Medicare? SSI? SSDI? Worker's Comp? Free lunches in school? libraries? govt subsidies? we're not headed to socialism, we HAVE socialism--mccain wants school vouchers (i think) obama wants to expand health coverage..neither candidate is reducing govt anytime soon...it's all how you package things.

Would you say most of those things you just mentioned are near or total failures in practice? I'd say some of them are more like ticking time bombs.

in sweden-they actually only work 25 days a year

Hey, kind of like those guys in Washington!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QakVlC3X_s[/media]

And yes, McCain and Obama both suck.

[Penny Lane]

brad --what do you called Medicaid? Medicare? SSI? SSDI? Worker's Comp? Free lunches in school? libraries? govt subsidies? we're not headed to socialism, we HAVE socialism--mccain wants school vouchers (i think) obama wants to expand health coverage..neither candidate is reducing govt anytime soon...it's all how you package things.

Would you say most of those things you just mentioned are near or total failures in practice? I'd say some of them are more like ticking time bombs.

in sweden-they actually only work 25 days a year

Hey, kind of like those guys in Washington!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QakVlC3X_s[/media]

And yes, McCain and Obama both suck.

i agree! yes, anything run by the govt is problematic...so given the choice, you'd go back to pre-ww2 days and throw the problems of the have nots in our society back to where, churches? The Salvo Army? Catholic Charities? I agree that back before we had the govt taking care of people and creating a system of dependency, the churches and families took care of the problem---but times have changed. Most of the religious organizations get their funding from federal/state dollars anyway. I agree with what you're saying, it's a mess and not getting better. But until someone comes up w/a solution (other than de-institutionalization--which we're seeing in the last 10 years, only creates more of a homeless probl--cuz guess what, the crazy people have nowhere to go!) I see SSDI and Medicaid as the real problems---it's really easy to say the govt screwed up this task--but it's a tough problem to solve---every great society needs to take care of those who can't take care of themselves--trying to balance that with personal responsibility is the problem. i can't tackle social security in this thread, or i'd bore everyone even more than i already have.

[ItStillJaimoe]

Socialism is nothing worth worrying about or vilifying for that matter. I'm from a fairly socialist country - even after last night's election win by the Conservative government. Fuck them. I'm in a union and I get free health care etc... and I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm not a supporter of a full-blown socialist system, but it seems to work in Norway and Sweden and other more countries of their ilk. It's a pretty humane way to live.