The Sweet Science Thread

[capt. scotty]

Well, Boxing is 1 of my favorite sports, so since theres a big time fight tonight, I figured why not start this thread now!!

Im not paying for Pacquiao v. De La Hoya, but Ill be watching it for free on my computer  :)

Should be a great fight. I would expect DLH to win, but would never count out PacMan

I actually just heard the their official weights. At the weigh ins yesterday, DLH came it at 145 and PacMan at 142 (for the agreed upon fight at 147)

Today, DLH is 147.5 and PacMan is 148  :o :o

I think if PacMan wins this, it would be because of his superior speed. Not sure how that much weight gain (namely since his last fight at 135) will affect that. I would expect his power to be as good or better, but hard to say how that will affect his speed.

Cant wait for this!!  :D :D

[capt. scotty]

That was the single best performance Ive seen a boxer put on in quite some time. Not best fight obviously, but best singular boxing clinic.

PacMan is a beast. That probably just got him fighter of the year for 2008 considering he just won a belt in 3 different weight classes this year.

I can only pray Pretty Boy Floyd cant handle hearing how Pac is the best of this generation and comes out of retirement to fight PacMan.

On another note, glad I didnt pay 50$ to watch this  ;D

[Penny Lane]

Boom Boom Mancini is my fighter!

What ever happened to Prince Naseem?

[capt. scotty]

Boom Boom Mancini is my fighter!

What ever happened to Prince Naseem?

After he suffered his first defeat in 2001 to Marco Antonio Barrera, he basically vanished.

He only had 1 fight afterwards, vs. a no-name opponent, who he did not beat convincingly.

Prince Naseem didnt fight long enough after that 1st loss, but I feel like he is similar to most any British boxer who builds a great record in the UK, only to show once he goes across the pond, he doesnt have that championship caliber skill.

Calzaghe is about the only boxer who has disproved this to a degree. That said, I dont think Joe Calslappy's heritage is secure with his career to this point. He needs a couple more wins in the USA to make him legitimate. He won a controversial win vs. Bernard Hopkins (a fight I think he lost), and he pulverized a Roy Jones Jr. who was once the Pound 4 Pound King due to his speed, not his skill. Something long gone in 2008

[capt. scotty]

If youre from Ohio though Penny, you gotta like Kelly Pavlik though, no??

I got 4 favorite fighters currently/still boxing, and Pavlik is 1 of them. That said, Bernard 'The Executioner' Hopkins is my favorite fighter of all time so I had no regrets with what happened in that fight a month or so back.

Id love to see Pavlik fight Calzaghe though. I think it would be another story, although Id like to see him have a rebound fight first.

[Penny Lane]

ha ha i'm from Youngstown, too. i remember boom boom M. as a kid--the pavlik fight was dissappointing. i guess he was really sick, though. he the only thing good Ytown has going for it right now.  as for Prince Naseem, i remember him in the 90s and then he just dissappeared. He was soooo cocky.

[Jaimoe]

I think if PacMan wins this, it would be because of his superior speed. Not sure how that much weight gain (namely since his last fight at 135) will affect that. I would expect his power to be as good or better, but hard to say how that will affect his speed.

Cant wait for this!!  :D :D

Punching power doesn't get better when you go up in weight. Normally, it stays the same, so PacMan was at a power disadvantage going into the fight. However, I love the result.

Prince Naseem held an inferior belt and was one of the most arrogant fighters ever... in a sport full of fucking idiot showmen. I loved the Barerra fight. Every fighter gets their just desserts (except Marciano), and Naseem got what he deserved, boxing-wise. He's apparently on the skids now in England, which is sad.

[Jaimoe]

Boom Boom Mancini is my fighter!

What ever happened to Prince Naseem?

After he suffered his first defeat in 2001 to Marco Antonio Barrera, he basically vanished.

He only had 1 fight afterwards, vs. a no-name opponent, who he did not beat convincingly.

Prince Naseem didnt fight long enough after that 1st loss, but I feel like he is similar to most any British boxer who builds a great record in the UK, only to show once he goes across the pond, he doesnt have that championship caliber skill.

Calzaghe is about the only boxer who has disproved this to a degree.  

There is some truth to your statement, especially if you look at overseas champs from the 70's and 80's - I'm looking at you Azumah Nelson - but I can't agree with it in general. If you want to go old school fighters, one of my favourite all-time is Barry McGuigan. Ricky Hatton fights everyone and just last night, Carl Froch beat Canadian Jean Pascal for the WBC Super Middleweight belt. I eliminate Lennox Lewis from this list because he's a man of many countries and won a gold medal for Canada at the '88 Olympics.

There's plenty more examples of legit great British and Irish fighters past and present. I don't think you can duck anyone anymore, especially with the proliferation of blood sports like MMA.

[Ruckus]

That was the single best performance Ive seen a boxer put on in quite some time. Not best fight obviously, but best singular boxing clinic.

PacMan is a beast. That probably just got him fighter of the year for 2008 considering he just won a belt in 3 different weight classes this year.

I can only pray Pretty Boy Floyd cant handle hearing how Pac is the best of this generation and comes out of retirement to fight PacMan.

On another note, glad I didnt pay 50$ to watch this  ;D

I want my Mutha 'Uckin money back!!!!! >:(

That said, I agree with you Cap that Pretty Boy may have to come out to fight.  Pacman v Pretty Boy at 147 would be awesome.  It has to happen.

That said, I'm really not even that sure how much of that performance was Pacman (Mexecutioner - i laugh every time) and how much was absolute lack of ability remaining in De La Hoya.  That was pathetic.  Hang em up or fight another superfight with Butterbean for some cash.

[capt. scotty]

Boom Boom Mancini is my fighter!

What ever happened to Prince Naseem?

After he suffered his first defeat in 2001 to Marco Antonio Barrera, he basically vanished.

He only had 1 fight afterwards, vs. a no-name opponent, who he did not beat convincingly.

Prince Naseem didnt fight long enough after that 1st loss, but I feel like he is similar to most any British boxer who builds a great record in the UK, only to show once he goes across the pond, he doesnt have that championship caliber skill.

Calzaghe is about the only boxer who has disproved this to a degree.  

There is some truth to your statement, especially if you look at overseas champs from the 70's and 80's - I'm looking at you Azumah Nelson - but I can't agree with it in general. If you want to go old school fighters, one of my favourite all-time is Barry McGuigan. Ricky Hatton fights everyone and just last night, Carl Froch beat Canadian Jean Pascal for the WBC Super Middleweight belt. I eliminate Lennox Lewis from this list because he's a man of many countries and won a gold medal for Canada at the '88 Olympics.

With that statement, I was looking at more the last 30 years or so. Lewis is an obvious exception.

I didnt see that Pascal fight last night, but despite him having the belt, Ive never been too impressed by him.

I wouldnt say that Hatton has fought everybody, but he seems willing to. I hardly thought thoroughly beating 1-Punch Malignaggi was a big win, but at least it was convincing. He got embarassed by PBF and I think PacMan would do the same thing. Whats his best win, Costa Tszyu?

I wouldnt mind seeing him fight Cotto though. That would be an intriguing matchup and Cotto is a smaller welter and Hatton a bigger Jr welter. It could happen, though I hear Margo/Cotto 2 is on the cards for next summer

[capt. scotty]

That was the single best performance Ive seen a boxer put on in quite some time. Not best fight obviously, but best singular boxing clinic.

PacMan is a beast. That probably just got him fighter of the year for 2008 considering he just won a belt in 3 different weight classes this year.

I can only pray Pretty Boy Floyd cant handle hearing how Pac is the best of this generation and comes out of retirement to fight PacMan.

On another note, glad I didnt pay 50$ to watch this  ;D

I want my Mutha 'Uckin money back!!!!! >:(

That said, I agree with you Cap that Pretty Boy may have to come out to fight.  Pacman v Pretty Boy at 147 would be awesome.  It has to happen.

That said, I'm really not even that sure how much of that performance was Pacman (Mexecutioner - i laugh every time) and how much was absolute lack of ability remaining in De La Hoya.  That was pathetic.  Hang em up or fight another superfight with Butterbean for some cash.

Well DLH looked competitive vs PBF just 18 months or so ago, and beat 2LB Forbes convincingly a few months back. Id hardly say he has no ability left. That said, I think it was an off night for him, plus I dont think he actually expected PacMan to be that fast. Im sure he also thought hed be able to land his jab, but with Pac's circling of him and head movement, that wasnt the case.

DLH had no answer for the southpaw's straight lefts. I realize DLH probably hasnt faced a ton of southpaw's, but I had a tough time watching that fight last and thinking - how does this guy only have 5 losses with defensive skills like this?!?

[Jaimoe]

That was the single best performance Ive seen a boxer put on in quite some time. Not best fight obviously, but best singular boxing clinic.

PacMan is a beast. That probably just got him fighter of the year for 2008 considering he just won a belt in 3 different weight classes this year.

I can only pray Pretty Boy Floyd cant handle hearing how Pac is the best of this generation and comes out of retirement to fight PacMan.

On another note, glad I didnt pay 50$ to watch this  ;D

I want my Mutha 'Uckin money back!!!!! >:(

That said, I agree with you Cap that Pretty Boy may have to come out to fight.  Pacman v Pretty Boy at 147 would be awesome.  It has to happen.

That said, I'm really not even that sure how much of that performance was Pacman (Mexecutioner - i laugh every time) and how much was absolute lack of ability remaining in De La Hoya.  That was pathetic.  Hang em up or fight another superfight with Butterbean for some cash.

Well DLH looked competitive vs PBF just 18 months or so ago, and beat 2LB Forbes convincingly a few months back. Id hardly say he has no ability left. That said, I think it was an off night for him, plus I dont think he actually expected PacMan to be that fast. Im sure he also thought hed be able to land his jab, but with Pac's circling of him and head movement, that wasnt the case.

DLH had no answer for the southpaw's straight lefts. I realize DLH probably hasnt faced a ton of southpaw's, but I had a tough time watching that fight last and thinking - how does this guy only have 5 losses with defensive skills like this?!?

Oscar fights differently now - with more recklessness, hence his defensive "issues." He was pretty hard to hit for most of his career. Not anymore.

[Jaimoe]

Boom Boom Mancini is my fighter!

What ever happened to Prince Naseem?

After he suffered his first defeat in 2001 to Marco Antonio Barrera, he basically vanished.

He only had 1 fight afterwards, vs. a no-name opponent, who he did not beat convincingly.

Prince Naseem didnt fight long enough after that 1st loss, but I feel like he is similar to most any British boxer who builds a great record in the UK, only to show once he goes across the pond, he doesnt have that championship caliber skill.

Calzaghe is about the only boxer who has disproved this to a degree.  

There is some truth to your statement, especially if you look at overseas champs from the 70's and 80's - I'm looking at you Azumah Nelson - but I can't agree with it in general. If you want to go old school fighters, one of my favourite all-time is Barry McGuigan. Ricky Hatton fights everyone and just last night, Carl Froch beat Canadian Jean Pascal for the WBC Super Middleweight belt. I eliminate Lennox Lewis from this list because he's a man of many countries and won a gold medal for Canada at the '88 Olympics.

With that statement, I was looking at more the last 30 years or so. Lewis is an obvious exception.

I didnt see that Pascal fight last night, but despite him having the belt, Ive never been too impressed by him.

I wouldnt say that Hatton has fought everybody, but he seems willing to. I hardly thought thoroughly beating 1-Punch Malignaggi was a big win, but at least it was convincing. He got embarassed by PBF and I think PacMan would do the same thing. Whats his best win, Costa Tszyu?

I wouldnt mind seeing him fight Cotto though. That would be an intriguing matchup and Cotto is a smaller welter and Hatton a bigger Jr welter. It could happen, though I hear Margo/Cotto 2 is on the cards for next summer

There's a difference between padding a record overseas versus fighting everyone (like Hatton), even if the competition isn't very good. Larry Holmes will forever be linked to a heavyweight division that appeared to be not very strong (although if you go back and look at some of those top fighters from the late 70's through the 80's, minus Biggs, many of them would kick the shit out of the stiffs fighting today).


I generally don't disagree with you though, but building up records in different countries is always suspect, it's just not a British/France/Italian thing. How many times do we see a Panamanian or Argentinian with impressive domestic records fight in NA for the first time? It happens a lot. However, all boxers bloat their records fighting stiffs and many champs traditionally duck tough fighters.

[capt. scotty]

Good call, you might as well call 80% of south american or middle american fighters who fight their 1st fight in NA amateurs when they get here. Theyre even less polished than every other country fighters who build up their records.

And like I said, Hatton seems willing to fight everyone, but he still hasnt had many worthy opponents. He himself up until about 2005 was just another fighter padding his record. Hes fought pretty good competition the last few years, but like I said, whats his signature win?? Tszyu? an over the hill Jose Luis Castillo? Im guessing youre a fan of his (I like him, and especially enjoy/respect his demeanor in the ring and ability to not give an F outside of the ring, then get in shape for his next fight...hes not 1 of my favorites though), but he needs to continue fighting top competition and beating them before I personally consider him a brawler who beats up on lesser competition.

Sadly for him, Jr welter is pretty barren right now. Those things could change somewhat quickly, but Kendall Holt seems like the only tested guy whose done anything. I havent even heard of most of the rest of the fighters near the top.

That said, there is a ton of guys at lightweight - JMM, Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz, Julio Diaz, Joel Casamayor, and Michael Katsidis. And we all know how packed the welterwights are right now. Hes got plenty of good fights out there, but will either have to move up or down in weightclasses, or make fights at catch weights.

[Jaimoe]

Nah, I'm not really a fan of his. I was just defending current fighters from overseas. Actually, Max Kellerman believes the most competive country for boxing is Mexico, especially in the mid to lower weights. I normally cheer for humble and exciting fighters no matter where they are from, unless they are Canadian. That being said, Steve Molitor got his come-upins two weeks ago on home soil, losing his IBF super bantamweight title to lesser-known Celestino "Pelenchin" Caballero in a 4th round TKO.

You can make a case that Molitor never fought anyone very tough until his fight two weeks ago (even though he defended his belt legitimately for two years). Boxing critics are also questioning Molitor's trainer - he dumped ex-heavyweight contender Chris Johnson before his last fight.

Molitor won the belt beating an Englishman Michael Hunter in Hunter's hometown of Hartlepool in 2006. Hunter rarely fights outside of England and when Molitor beat him, it proves your theory of overseas fighters  padding their record and not being able to beat a quality NA fighter. I just think Molitor's counter-punching style and his lack of a power-punch did him in more than anything. He's a good boxer though.

[capt. scotty]

Well yeah, when I said SA and MA, I guess I didnt think about Mexico being in MA  ;D. Hes right, tons of great fighters come outta there and are experienced and ready by the time they get here.

Ive heard of Molitor, but never seen him fight. I have seen Caballero, and was not impressed at all. He just looked to me like a poor man's, check that, bankrupt man's Paul Williams. It looked to me the only reason hes a top fighter is due to size and reach and nothing more. His skills arent even that good, but his attributes just give him such a huge advantage (and much moreso than PW at SW or even WW).

Not sure how that factored into that last fight.

[Jaimoe]

He can hit and his size was too much for Molitor. He looked unprepared, which caught the ire of boxing writers and announcers.

[aMillionDreams]

Hey.  I'm a bit late to the party, but I am also a boxing fan.  It sucks that it's a sport in such decline these days.  We need a great boxer to revive the sport.  I'm a big fan of older fights.  Hearns v Hagler and Moralles v Castillo are probably my two favorite fights of all-time.  I'm also a pretty big Pretty Boy Floyd fan and wish he stay around longer.  He doesn't get enough attention for just how good he's been.  Oscar is finally done, however.

[capt. scotty]

Hey.  I'm a bit late to the party, but I am also a boxing fan.  It sucks that it's a sport in such decline these days.  We need a great boxer to revive the sport.  I'm a big fan of older fights.  Hearns v Hagler and Moralles v Castillo are probably my two favorite fights of all-time.  I'm also a pretty big Pretty Boy Floyd fan and wish he stay around longer.  He doesn't get enough attention for just how good he's been.  Oscar is finally done, however.

Have you seen the Israel Vazquez vs. Rafael Marquez trilogy fights??

The first 2 especially were unbelievable. I forget which of them it was, but 1 of them was FOTY of 2007 by Ring Magazine

...and PBF might be back sooner than you think with PacMan now the cream of the crop

[aMillionDreams]

Hey.  I'm a bit late to the party, but I am also a boxing fan.  It sucks that it's a sport in such decline these days.  We need a great boxer to revive the sport.  I'm a big fan of older fights.  Hearns v Hagler and Moralles v Castillo are probably my two favorite fights of all-time.  I'm also a pretty big Pretty Boy Floyd fan and wish he stay around longer.  He doesn't get enough attention for just how good he's been.  Oscar is finally done, however.

Have you seen the Israel Vazquez vs. Rafael Marquez trilogy fights??

The first 2 especially were unbelievable. I forget which of them it was, but 1 of them was FOTY of 2007 by Ring Magazine

...and PBF might be back sooner than you think with PacMan now the cream of the crop

I saw the first fight but haven't seen the next two. I'll try and track them down.  If PBF had Oscar's personality he'd be the Tiger Woods of Boxing, instead most casual sports fans have barely heard of him.  

I think it's weird that boxing and baseball are losing players due to the popularity of football and basketball.  You would think at least a few people would realize not everyone can be a professional football or basketball player and try lacing up the gloves instead but I guess thinking reasonably and being a young sports star don't necessarily go hand in hand.