Wiki Leaks

[el_chode]

1) When America becomes as violent as any middle-eastern nation, I'll believe that we're the most violent nation. Or when we start rioting when tuition goes up or unemployment doesn't go down, like England and France respectively.
2) If Palin's poster has nothing to do with it, why is it part of the discussion? The only reason it keeps being brought up is because (a) she's a blowhard who trolls the public consciousness to get attention for herself and (b) people hate her for it so they're just trying to pin anything on her to make the public see the villain they see in private.

And if I'm going to defend her - if she left that poster UP on her site then you'd be just as critical. There's nothing that she could ever do to make anyone happy in the situation, but recognizing that it has caused outrage is probably the most sane thing she's done in a long, long time.

The bottom line is that it shouldn't have taken a mass murder to make the debate calm down. The sudden call for rational debate, especially when it comes from the likes of Keith Olbermann, reminds me of this:

Calmer Than You Are

If there's anything that America IS the most anything nation of the planet, it's we don't make a move until its too late, and then entirely overreact. Both sides are equally as guilty as being over the top and honestly, just downright retarded. There's absolutely no use of trying to say "oh, well this side is the only one that does _______" because I will guarantee it that if you look around you'll find equally stupid and ignorant statements fitting the accusation on both sides of the debate.

The rational, reasonable thing to do is stop pointing fingers, stop trying to put the blame everywhere on the other side, and just look at it like it is:

1) An (attempted) assassination
2) On a moderate politician from a conservative district
3) by a crazed lunatic
4) who didn't act on behalf of either party
5) and didn't act in response to anything besides his own delusions

My only fear is that every force is met with an equal and opposing force. And in this case, it's going to be calls to clamp down on expression which to me is the most dangerous thing of all. Because when you strip the Palin Poster down to its basics, you're basically saying that any sort of "target" symbolism is a call for assassination.

Though I will agree with you Tracy that the discourse needs to change, it's just not Palin's poster. It's on both sides of the media - on Fox, on MSNBC, on CNN. And I'll also even go ahead and agree that the biggest/loudest culprits are on the right - Palin, Beck, Mann Coulter.

I'm just a free expression hawk, and I smell danger, which makes me antsy.

[Paulie_Walnuts]

She took the poster down because "she recognised it caused outrage"?

BULLSHIT - she took it down because if she left it up it would cost her votes.

[Tracy 2112]

I'm just a free expression hawk, and I smell danger, which makes me antsy.

1st > I appreciate your heartfelt and thorough posts here.

There is no danager to free expression, there's just an opportunity for people to use common sense and not use violence as a means to an end. My God, the republicans have been yelling and screaming about us becomming a communist-facist-socialist- muslim-dictatorship since Obama took office and guess what > It ain't gonna happen. And no one is taking our fuking guns, either. What will happen is the rhetoric will calm down, which is my overall point and my wish for a couple of years now; I just didn't think I was right when I told my wife that some democrat is going to get shot.

You're reading a whole lot into my posts that I didn't say i.e. I also don't like Keith Olbermann and I fully agree that he is down in the gutter with FOX news and both sides are to blame. Don't lump me in with the Left; I am pro gun.

Palin's map was irresponsible. And it was used as a fear and intimidation tactic. I've seen rednecks use similiar tactics here in the South my whole life. Instead of "reloading" I hope she thinks. Time for us to grow up a bit.

[el_chode]

RE: Pauly - There's a difference? She's a politician, no matter how much of a "hockey mom" or "reality star" she wants to pretend to be. Upsetting people and causing outrage will cost her votes. She's already spinning the situation into some political lesson about how this shows how unhappy people are with the direction of the country or some shit.

[el_chode]

I'm just a free expression hawk, and I smell danger, which makes me antsy.

1st > I appreciate your heartfelt and thorough posts here.

There is no danager to free expression, there's just an opportunity for people to use common sense and not use violence as a means to an end. My God, the republicans have been yelling and screaming about us becomming a communist-facist-socialist- muslim-dictatorship since Obama took office and guess what > It ain't gonna happen. And no one is taking our fuking guns, either. What will happen is the rhetoric will calm down, which is my overall point and my wish for a couple of years now; I just didn't think I was right when I told my wife that some democrat is going to get shot.

You're reading a whole lot into my posts that I didn't say i.e. I also don't like Keith Olbermann and I fully agree that he is down in the gutter with FOX news and both sides are to blame. Don't lump me in with the Left; I am pro gun.

Palin's map was irresponsible. And it was used as a fear and intimidation tactic. I've seen rednecks use similiar tactics here in the South my whole life. Instead of "reloading" I hope she thinks. Time for us to grow up a bit.

Fair enough, I read into it because Keith recently came out with the same argument that we "need to stop the rhetoric" and I've watched the debate-at-large blow up with the "left/anti-Palin" side claiming it was Tea Party before the bodies even hit the ground (and, to a lesser extent, the right claiming it was some pro-Mexico immigration drug cartel, but I don't read their stuff as often as I read stuff from the left)

I still think there's a huge threat to free expression here. It'll be an overreaction exactly because of Palin's map, especially since Giffords is on the record criticizing the tactic, and it's just misdirection. Misdirection is the rhetoric, and misdirection will continue to be the rhetoric. There will be calls to crackdown on YouTube and, like Wikileaks, there'll be a claim that if we don't take control, terrorism will spread. There'll be a chilling effect on symbolic speech specifically.

Interestingly enough though, I've seen relatively little on the gun debate in the media. I figured with Arizona's lax CCW regulation and general premise that everyone has a gun along with the recent Court decisions that it'd be a hotter topic.

The best we can hope for is that the "change in rhetoric" won't galvanize her and instead make it so there is no place for her style of debate come 2012.

[Tracy 2112]

Olberman is a blowhard and I will not watch the FOX/MSNBC debate about this. I'd rather have a root canal.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/flashback-giffords-opponent-had-m16-shooting-event-help-remove-gabrielle-giffords-from-office.php

it's a horrible approach to rhetoric.   you're right though chode and made a good point about freedom of expression.  that is curious to think about.   people should be allowed to say what they want but where's the line when it comes to dangerous suggestive threatening shit?  it's all fucking crazy.  hopefully the violence doesn't get worse and people chill the fuck out.

[el_chode]

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/01/flashback-giffords-opponent-had-m16-shooting-event-help-remove-gabrielle-giffords-from-office.php

it's a horrible approach to rhetoric.   you're right though chode and made a good point about freedom of expression.  that is curious to think about.   people should be allowed to say what they want but where's the line when it comes to dangerous suggestive threatening shit?  it's all fucking crazy.  hopefully the violence doesn't get worse and people chill the fuck out.

I'll tell you the line and where I'll change my argument: as soon as they show this kid was directly influenced by the map itself and took it as a call to arms - or - as soon as someone else on that list suffers physical harm.

Here's an excerpt from the first case that comes to mind (I was wrong before saying it was Supreme Court - it's 9th Circuit). I think you'll see the parallels easy enough.

[Tracy 2112]

it's a horrible approach to rhetoric.   you're right though chode and made a good point about freedom of expression.  that is curious to think about.   people should be allowed to say what they want but where's the line when it comes to dangerous suggestive threatening shit?  it's all fucking crazy.  hopefully the violence doesn't get worse and people chill the fuck out.

I'll tell you the line and where I'll change my argument: as soon as they show this kid was directly influenced by the map itself and took it as a call to arms - or - as soon as someone else on that list suffers physical harm.

Chode, you have the convenience of not being on that list. Legalistic speech is great, but at some point empathy for those in the crosshairs should enter the picture.

[el_chode]

it's a horrible approach to rhetoric.   you're right though chode and made a good point about freedom of expression.  that is curious to think about.   people should be allowed to say what they want but where's the line when it comes to dangerous suggestive threatening shit?  it's all fucking crazy.  hopefully the violence doesn't get worse and people chill the fuck out.

I'll tell you the line and where I'll change my argument: as soon as they show this kid was directly influenced by the map itself and took it as a call to arms - or - as soon as someone else on that list suffers physical harm.

Chode, you have the convenience of not being on that list. Legalistic speech is great, but at some point empathy for those in the crosshairs should enter the picture.

I've been on the flipside where someone who was highly sensitive to crosshairs put themselves underneath them, and I suffered some very real and long-lasting consequences. Empathy is easily manipulated.

[Tracy 2112]

it's a horrible approach to rhetoric.   you're right though chode and made a good point about freedom of expression.  that is curious to think about.   people should be allowed to say what they want but where's the line when it comes to dangerous suggestive threatening shit?  it's all fucking crazy.  hopefully the violence doesn't get worse and people chill the fuck out.

I'll tell you the line and where I'll change my argument: as soon as they show this kid was directly influenced by the map itself and took it as a call to arms - or - as soon as someone else on that list suffers physical harm.

Chode, you have the convenience of not being on that list. Legalistic speech is great, but at some point empathy for those in the crosshairs should enter the picture.

I've been on the flipside where someone who was highly sensitive to crosshairs put themselves underneath them, and I suffered some very real and long-lasting consequences. Empathy is easily manipulated.

yeah, well, anyway

[el_chode]

Here's a Slate article saying what I've been getting at

[Tracy 2112]

Here's a Slate article saying what I've been getting at

Jack Shafer has been manipulated.

( I didn't get past the title "The awesome stupidity..." Really? I am supposed to read an article that is telling me I am stupid? That seems like a constructive angle; actually sounds a bit like Olberman.)

I'm sort of done with this

[el_chode]

Here's a Slate article saying what I've been getting at

Jack Shafer has been manipulated.

( I didn't get past the title "The awesome stupidity..." Really? I am supposed to read an article that is telling me I am stupid? That seems like a constructive angle; actually sounds a bit like Olberman.)

I'm sort of done with this

I didn't even read the byline. Saw the link as "In Defense of..." and that was that. He's attacking the argument, not the people.

[SaraBananaBear]

Can't stop watching this

RAP NEWS 5: News World Order - the war on journalism (ft. Julian Assange)

Amazing stuff!

"Life's good - shut up!"
;D