Musical highs and lows

[Jaimoe]

I think grunge hit everyone, especially younger people, because the 80s sucked ass and grunge was something totally different, something primal and honest, unlike what was around during pre-grunge: depressing whimp-pop from Britain, aging supergroups and bloated metal.

I think this is the type of generalization that I have been trying to avoid though I'm sure I'm often guilty of it myself.  I graduated high school in '96 and grew up during the so called "Seattle Movement."  What is grunge?  Is it a type of rock 'n roll?  I don't think many of the bands from that era sound alike.  Ahh but I digress.  What I was going to say was that I never personally enjoyed Nevermind or Ten.  I think they are OK but in my opinion and that's it.  I was busy listening to Jimi, Floyd, Rush, Tribe Called Quest, Bad Religion etc.

I was forced to cover too many Nirvana and Pearl Jam songs in the bands I played in and I hated it.  I guess my point is that there is someone who actually doesn't like PJ and NIrvana that much :)

I don't want to write an essay about my perceived generalizations, but I think grunge was partly born as a reaction to the 80s music scenes. Perhaps not as political or angry as punk's creation in the 70s, but I still think the core of the grunge movement was reactionary and also driven by a great deal of angst.

[el_chode]

I think grunge hit everyone, especially younger people, because the 80s sucked ass and grunge was something totally different, something primal and honest, unlike what was around during pre-grunge: depressing whimp-pop from Britain, aging supergroups and bloated metal.

I think this is the type of generalization that I have been trying to avoid though I'm sure I'm often guilty of it myself.  I graduated high school in '96 and grew up during the so called "Seattle Movement."  What is grunge?  Is it a type of rock 'n roll?  I don't think many of the bands from that era sound alike.  Ahh but I digress.  What I was going to say was that I never personally enjoyed Nevermind or Ten.  I think they are OK but in my opinion and that's it.  I was busy listening to Jimi, Floyd, Rush, Tribe Called Quest, Bad Religion etc.

I was forced to cover too many Nirvana and Pearl Jam songs in the bands I played in and I hated it.  I guess my point is that there is someone who actually doesn't like PJ and NIrvana that much :)

I don't want to write an essay about my perceived generalizations, but I think grunge was partly born as a reaction to the 80s music scenes. Perhaps not as political or angry as punk's creation in the 70s, but I still think the core of the grunge movement was reactionary and also driven by a great deal of angst.

I'll agree to that, just as much as the popularity of it is what eventually killed it. A lot of people saw a lot of party-time music being made when there wasn't necessarily a reason to party.

[Jaimoe]

I think Arcade Fire puts on a better live show than MMJ and Neon Bible is kicks Evil Urges' ass. But hey, it's all a matter of opinion, eh?

Rush went downhill fast after 1982. Bring it on Tracy! All you Rush fans are militant in your love of all things Rush.

The Who's "Long Live Rock" is one of my least favourtie Who songs, and they are my favourite band (along with the Allman Brothers).

I'm not a huge Arcade Fire fan, but their concert last year floored me. I've seen MMJ four times and their 2003 concert in Toronto ranks in my Top 10 ever, but it wasn't better than the Arcade Fire show, which is surprising (and M. Ward opened for MMJ!).

Everybody has a classic song from a favourite band that for some reason, they just don't like. I just don't like "Long Live Rock." I don't like "Squeze Box" either.

As for you defending post-1982 Rush? You proved my point.

[Jaimoe]

I think grunge hit everyone, especially younger people, because the 80s sucked ass and grunge was something totally different, something primal and honest, unlike what was around during pre-grunge: depressing whimp-pop from Britain, aging supergroups and bloated metal.

I think this is the type of generalization that I have been trying to avoid though I'm sure I'm often guilty of it myself.  I graduated high school in '96 and grew up during the so called "Seattle Movement."  What is grunge?  Is it a type of rock 'n roll?  I don't think many of the bands from that era sound alike.  Ahh but I digress.  What I was going to say was that I never personally enjoyed Nevermind or Ten.  I think they are OK but in my opinion and that's it.  I was busy listening to Jimi, Floyd, Rush, Tribe Called Quest, Bad Religion etc.

I was forced to cover too many Nirvana and Pearl Jam songs in the bands I played in and I hated it.  I guess my point is that there is someone who actually doesn't like PJ and NIrvana that much :)

I don't want to write an essay about my perceived generalizations, but I think grunge was partly born as a reaction to the 80s music scenes. Perhaps not as political or angry as punk's creation in the 70s, but I still think the core of the grunge movement was reactionary and also driven by a great deal of angst.

I'll agree to that, just as much as the popularity of it is what eventually killed it. A lot of people saw a lot of party-time music being made when there wasn't necessarily a reason to party.

And grunge music for the most part is pretty serious and unfunny. Great music though and it ages very well. Gritty guitar-based music and great bands have a way of doing this.

[Vadie Stark]

I, ah....I see your point ;)

Jmo,How did I prove your Rush point? edit: militant sure. Downhill since 1982 shit man that is dumb.
As far as AF vs MMJ that's a bold statement,  ;D I guess everyone likes different things. A band would probably have to kill the promoter,play all night and give the gate money back to rock me harder than the jacket
did in 2008 but that's just my opinion :) carry on [smiley=beer.gif]

[pawpaw]

...the difference between the early and mid 90s and now is that there just hasn't been a cohesive scene geographically, nor has there been a cohesive merging of what is truly good music and what is popular.

I'd agree that the first part of that statement is true - not since 90s Grunge and Britpop has there been a large volume of generally regarded "good" music coming from one region, that has also made an impact on commercial radio. (And yes, I'm talking rock radio - while I'm not a big fan, even I noticed the sales numbers that Southern rappers were collectively getting around 10 years ago.) The second part of your statement is completely subjective, but I think I know what you're getting at.

The thing about Grunge, is that it changed radio station formats, gave birth (in many American markets) to commercial "Alternative" radio, and created a whole new kind of rock icon. That "scene" had such an impact, that record companies spent the next decade+ trying to force the next Grunge. Remember the swing music "craze", or when 3rd wave ska was getting mad radio play. Rap-rock, eyebrow ring music (that's awesome, btw), all pushes for the new explosive sound and image. But none of them even came close to sniffing the importance that Grunge had. It seems like the last several years we haven't had the push for packaged scenes like the mid/late 90s. While I wouldn't call it universally "good" music, the Grunge era certainly had more cultural impact than anything we've seen since in popular music. (and Mudhoney STILL RULES!!!)

I feel pretty out of touch when it comes to popular music these days, so I can't comment on what I think of it, but there's great music being released every month, from large and small labels. I feel pretty confident that there will be a geographically based music scene getting huge exposure again in the future though, and the music might even be "good".  

...unlike what was around during pre-grunge: depressing whimp-pop from Britain...

I love 80s wimp-pop from Britain!!!  ::)  ;D  8-)



Oh, and Arcade Fire rules HARD!!!

[capt. scotty]

The thing about Grunge, is that it changed radio station formats, gave birth (in many American markets) to commercial "Alternative" radio, and created a whole new kind of rock icon. That "scene" had such an impact, that record companies spent the next decade+ trying to force the next Grunge. Remember the swing music "craze", or when 3rd wave ska was getting mad radio play. Rap-rock, eyebrow ring music (that's awesome, btw), all pushes for the new explosive sound and image. But none of them even came close to sniffing the importance that Grunge had. It seems like the last several years we haven't had the push for packaged scenes like the mid/late 90s. While I wouldn't call it universally "good" music, the Grunge era certainly had more cultural impact than anything we've seen since in popular music. (and Mudhoney STILL RULES!!!)

I think this is spot on and goes back to I think what chode was kind of going for. 1 of the big radio stations in Pittsburgh is 105.9 The X that was born around 93 or so playing that music. However, still to do this day, Id say a good 65% of what they play is the popular stuff from the 90's - grunge, alternative, to beck or RATM. Its 1 of 2 radio stations I can ever leave on for more than 2 songs.

If another subgenre like that occurs, I dont see it happening soon.

[capt. scotty]

Any thoughts? Did music die in 1996? Is there a scene outside of some mile-long stretch of dive bars in Austin that I'm missing? Certainly music doesn't suck now, but there's no real uniting force. To sum it up - there's not any one sound for a band like Candlebox to ruin.

I think your argument fits perfectly for hip hop, but like numerous people have said, theres plenty of good music being made, and even some of it I'd consider semi-popular like MMJ.

Good mainstream hip hop died in 1998, but that doesn't mean there's nothing good in the underground, there's actually tons of good stuff. Good hip hop gets only as popular as Common, Mos Def, The Roots, Outkast, etc., but even in those cases, they've all fallen off once they got popular.

[capt. scotty]

You think there is anything, at all, on the planet, that I could say to an Animal Collective fan that would make them UNDERSTAND that they suck?   ;D ;D ;D ;D

Im glad we can agree on something

[Leontheslut]

THis is the song that officially buried music!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pga4ax5aus[/media]

[Ruckus]

The thing about Grunge, is that it changed radio station formats, gave birth (in many American markets) to commercial "Alternative" radio, and created a whole new kind of rock icon. That "scene" had such an impact, that record companies spent the next decade+ trying to force the next Grunge. Remember the swing music "craze", or when 3rd wave ska was getting mad radio play. Rap-rock, eyebrow ring music (that's awesome, btw), all pushes for the new explosive sound and image. But none of them even came close to sniffing the importance that Grunge had. It seems like the last several years we haven't had the push for packaged scenes like the mid/late 90s. While I wouldn't call it universally "good" music, the Grunge era certainly had more cultural impact than anything we've seen since in popular music. (and Mudhoney STILL RULES!!!)

I think this is spot on and goes back to I think what chode was kind of going for. 1 of the big radio stations in Pittsburgh is 105.9 The X that was born around 93 or so playing that music. However, still to do this day, Id say a good 65% of what they play is the popular stuff from the 90's - grunge, alternative, to beck or RATM. Its 1 of 2 radio stations I can ever leave on for more than 2 songs.

If another subgenre like that occurs, I dont see it happening soon.

By this same reasoning, you can say that pop country and  club banging radio stations also were spawned by an sudden mainstream explosion and exist to this day.  What is being is argued is that a lot of you guys seemed to enjoy that music a lot and were young during its explosion and therefore its effect is personal.  Now if a 60 year old tells me that, I might drink the kool aid.

No one still has explained to me what grunge is.  It's not a type of music.  Just a hyped term.  Thanks Kurt Loder ;)

[pawpaw]

The thing about Grunge, is that it changed radio station formats, gave birth (in many American markets) to commercial "Alternative" radio, and created a whole new kind of rock icon. That "scene" had such an impact, that record companies spent the next decade+ trying to force the next Grunge. Remember the swing music "craze", or when 3rd wave ska was getting mad radio play. Rap-rock, eyebrow ring music (that's awesome, btw), all pushes for the new explosive sound and image. But none of them even came close to sniffing the importance that Grunge had. It seems like the last several years we haven't had the push for packaged scenes like the mid/late 90s. While I wouldn't call it universally "good" music, the Grunge era certainly had more cultural impact than anything we've seen since in popular music. (and Mudhoney STILL RULES!!!)

I think this is spot on and goes back to I think what chode was kind of going for. 1 of the big radio stations in Pittsburgh is 105.9 The X that was born around 93 or so playing that music. However, still to do this day, Id say a good 65% of what they play is the popular stuff from the 90's - grunge, alternative, to beck or RATM. Its 1 of 2 radio stations I can ever leave on for more than 2 songs.

If another subgenre like that occurs, I dont see it happening soon.

By this same reasoning, you can say that pop country and  club banging radio stations also were spawned by an sudden mainstream explosion and exist to this day.  What is being is argued is that a lot of you guys seemed to enjoy that music a lot and were young during its explosion and therefore its effect is personal.  Now if a 60 year old tells me that, I might drink the kool aid.

No one still has explained to me what grunge is.  It's not a type of music.  Just a hyped term.  Thanks Kurt Loder ;)

Yeah, it's just a hyped term...a brand name for a collective of bands. I did enjoy a little Grunge at a point in my life where music was really starting to matter. But as I said above, Grunge was much more than another musical brand that Gen X/Y remembers fondly and talks up because they were there to see it happen...it sold like crazy and created a mainstream, commercial legitimacy to what until then had been "College Radio" music. Country music turned toward the mainstream - the stations have always been there. And electronic music has never reached the sales levels that grunge did, and certainly doesn't have the reach into parts of America that alternative radio does/did.  

[ycartrob]

Don't forget the post-grunge rap/rock movement: Kid Rock, Linkin Park, Staind, Slipknot, System of  A Down, etc... those guys sold millions of records, were in movies, soundtracks, video games, sporting events, hanging with the stars. And this "attitude", this hyper-masculinity, embraced by the X game skaters/BMX people and also the Jack Ass guys. This "style" sort of stuck, too. Pretty influential post grunge movement.

Or is rap/rock not "good" music?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKAIlrkSZOg[/media]

[Penny Lane]

Or is rap/rock not "good" music?

No it's not..except for System of the Down and when the beastie boys did it 20 years ago.  :-)

[ycartrob]

 What is being is argued is that a lot of you guys seemed to enjoy that music a lot and were young during its explosion and therefore its effect is personal.  

:-?

[pawpaw]

Don't forget the post-grunge rap/rock movement: Kid Rock, Linkin Park, Staind, Slipknot, System of  A Down, etc... those guys sold millions of records, were in movies, soundtracks, video games, sproting events, hanging with the stars. Definently a post grunge movement.

Or is rap/rock not "good" music?

So, I take it you're a big rap/rock fan, 'eh Tracy?  Personally, I LOVE me some rap/rock ;D

It was definitely something new, and it sold a shitload, BUT......this guy does not make good music, and he was the king of that shit!!!

[ycartrob]

So, I take it you're a big rap/rock fan, 'eh Tracy?  Personally, I LOVE me some rap/rock ;D

I can't stand it. I was working in high schools when that broke and there was nothing but gangstas, lil Fred Dursts and goth kids.

I just want to hear why it wasn't a valid movement. A lot of the white pro atheletes totally took on that culture and it is still kicking today. Whereas "grunge" ate itself. Of course, I was wearing ripped jeans and flannel when I was 5...

[pawpaw]

So, I take it you're a big rap/rock fan, 'eh Tracy?  Personally, I LOVE me some rap/rock ;D

I can't stand it. I was working in high schools when that broke and there was nothing but gangstas, lil Fred Dursts and goth kids.

I just want to hear why it wasn't a valid movement. A lot of the white pro atheletes totally took on that culture and it is still kicking today. Whereas "grunge" ate itself. Of course, I was wearing ripped jeans and flannel when I was 5...

Well, I can't give you a completely objective, universally agreed upon argument, and that's why we got to page 4 of this thread!

But look, we're all music snobs here, and in our wider community, there's generally regarded "good" and "bad" music. Rap/rock = "bad", those guys are clowns, and that's why they're not a valid movement. Their music sucks. Period.

[mjkoehler]

I guess its the codeine and other meds raveging my brain, but what the hell is the point of this thread? There are are always movements/periods in music, whether they are good or bad and music is so fucking subjective. Yes Rock/Rap is fucking horrible, yes the current garbage that is dubbed "Emo" is fucking horrible (for the record it's not emo, Emo is Elliot Smith, Weezer's Pinkerton, early early Jimmy Eat World not MCR). But someone likes that stuff and it speaks to them. I'm sure outsiders thought we were tards for running around in flannal and ripped up old jeans. Just as I think white guys who dress the hip hop part look like total fucking tools.

I have no point other then like what you like. Music isn;t dead and it never will be. Certain aspects are (like Radio) but that doesn't mean this isn't fantastic shit out there. Oh and several people said the 80's sucked? Huh? The 80's gave us a lot of great bands and music. People need to get past the pop culture bullshit of the one hit wonders and crappy pop music of the 80's that you see ad naseum on the flashback shows that VH1 shows. There is way more there then people realize or remember.

[ycartrob]

what the hell is the point of this thread?

The point of this thread is to prove that somewhere out there, there's one guy (or gal) who knows more about music than anyone else ever. We're on a quest to find that person.