Choder's Dilemma

[el_chode]

I'm a pretty philosophical person, but even I have my limits. I'll tell you my situation, I'd like to see what you all think:

Today I interviewed for a low-paying job of good conscience (preserving open spaces from over-development). The experience will be invaluable, they'll hire before my bar results, and the perks are awesome. But I will barely be able to afford my student loans. I have to commit to the position for 2 years.

In an environment hostile to new lawyers, it's pretty hard to get a job that is somewhat related to an area you'd like to practice, if any job at all.

What do I do?

[kydiddle]

I'm a pretty philosophical person, but even I have my limits. I'll tell you my situation, I'd like to see what you all think:

Today I interviewed for a low-paying job of good conscience (preserving open spaces from over-development). The experience will be invaluable, they'll hire before my bar results, and the perks are awesome. But I will barely be able to afford my student loans. I have to commit to the position for 2 years.

In an environment hostile to new lawyers, it's pretty hard to get a job that is somewhat related to an area you'd like to practice, if any job at all.

What do I do?

It's probably a very naive/unrealistic philosophy in today's economy, but I try to live by the motto: do what makes you happy and the money will work itself out. I've always been taught that you will make money somehow if you do something you love. I say go for it, especially if the only thing holding you back is concern about money being tight. Work out something with your student loans...consolidate or try to do an income based payment. Don't let a good opportunity pass you by, you'll kick yourself for it later!

[BH]

This doesn't always work, but when evaluating a job, my dad always told me to take a good look at your potential boss or superior and ask yourself if you want to be him someday.

[vespachick]

This doesn't always work, but when evaluating a job, my dad always told me to take a good look at your potential boss or superior and ask yourself if you want to be him someday.

Or her.   ;)

(that's a real good piece of advice though!)

[Haldon]

Brother,

While every situation is unique, and I suggest that you give your decision the appropriate time and thought, I will give to you advice, in the form of my situation

When I first got to law school, I realized that I was not going to be a great law student.  I realized that there were many aspects/areas of the law that I seriously struggled with (property/contracts) and that I could give two shits about (property/contracts)
I realized that I had real strenghts in advocacy/litigation, and a true interest in criminal/constitutional law.

Since I wasn't a great law student (top 68%)  :)    There were not many job offers out there for me.
I had a choice of working for a friend of my father's in Tampa, making anywhere from 80-90K a year and working in the area of insurance defense
Or, coming down to Miami, work for the Public Defenders Office and make 40K

You are aware that I took the Miami job.  Over 2 1/2 years later, I know I made the right decision.
I make far less than I would have, had I gone to Tampa.  Making the loan payments can be a struggle (although I was able to defer them for the first year)
But the experience that I get here + the true job satisfaction, cannot be beat.
I am not lying when I tell you that I get up every day pumped to go to work.  There is never a day which I dread going into the office.  I imagine that that feeling is a rare one amongst the working public.

Also, I know that this job is not my last job.  I understood that I would not get my prefered job, at my prefered salary, the first day that I walked out of law school.  I knew that I would have to pay my dues, put in the time, and eventually the right job opportunity would appear.

You inidicated in your original post:
"Today I interviewed for a low-paying job of good conscience (preserving open spaces from over-development). The experience will be invaluable, they'll hire before my bar results, and the perks are awesome"

I liken your situation to mine.  I took a low paying job, of good conscience.  My expereience has been invaluable.  They hired me before my bar results were in.  The perks are great (health benefits, life insurance, contributions to 401K, pay my bar dues, etc)

If you take the job for 2 years, you will gain valuable experience, maturity, and respect amongst your fellow peers.  Then if you want to leave the job for bigger and better things, you can do so.

You will most likely struggle with finances.  I know I do.  That can be a big hardship.  It can also be disheartening, when you consider that you are a professional, with a graduate degree and years of schooling behind you, but that you make less than the guy who picks up your trash in the morning (no offense meant towards our santitation friends on the board; if there are any)  You will most likely be making less than the majority of your classmates who got jobs.
But remember, the goal is not to make lots of money your first two years out of law school.

The goal should be to continue to learn, and grow as an attorney, and continue to PRACTICE law.  it is hard to practice law, without a job in the law.

I'm sure that whatever decision you make will the correct decision.

best of luck

[Tracy 2112]

Do the right thing

[Tracy 2112]

  It can also be disheartening, when you consider that you are a professional, with a graduate degree and years of schooling behind you, but that you make less than the guy who picks up your trash in the morning (no offense meant towards our santitation friends on the board; if there are any)

But you'll be making more than a social worker with a graduate degree and years of schooling...   ;)

[pawpaw]

I have to commit to the position for 2 years.

2 years will go by very quickly. If you and your wife can manage the debt, I say go for it. I think it's good to struggle financially for a little bit when you start out anyway. Builds character.  ;D

Aside from the money, it sounds like an ideal "first job." Good luck, choder.

[el_chode]

Thanks for the advice all. Esp Haldon, since you and I seem to be legal clones as far as ranks (though Prop and Contracts are not so bad for me, unless the bar says otherwise). I'm desperately avoiding the Insurance Defence/Personal Injury route.

I've been tossing and turning about this over night, had a long talk with the wife, but it's hard putting our lives on hold - postponing little choders and getting a house and whatnot.

Plus I'm starting to worry that I might be settling too soon, especially since I have my resume out at a bunch of connections in the area I'd love to work. I'm going to prepare a counter offer and see what they say, because despite the good conscience aspect, I'm worried I"m falling back on plan B before I've really given Plan A a full try.

My counter-offer will be an increase in pay (slight) and a decrease in commitment. Since a key part of the job is negotiation, I'm thinking they're testing me out a bit here as well so we'll see how that plays out.

I should also mention I will not technically be a lawyer in this position, though I will have legal duties. The job requires me to draft, negotiate, and close on the purchase of easements for property to create new hiking trails, preserve farmland from the Toll Brother McMansion Expansion, and generally make sure that mini malls don't cover every green patch across NJ.

[Hawkeye]

I have to commit to the position for 2 years.

2 years will go by very quickly. If you and your wife can manage the debt, I say go for it. I think it's good to struggle financially for a little bit when you start out anyway. Builds character.  ;D

Aside from the money, it sounds like an ideal "first job." Good luck, choder.

I can testify that the 2 years will go quickly.  I had to commit for one year when I moved to stay with the company after they closed a facility where I lived...the year went REALLY fast.  I feel like I haven't seen/done everything in the area that I need to do yet, and think I can handle another year (of the area...the job is a little harder to deal with).  So I'd say don't worry a lot about the time commitment.

As for money vs. doing something you love...I went for the money and am hating my life at work, so right now, I'd say do what you love/what seems right.  I'm looking for a way out of here, but only for something that will either get me closer to home or get me doing something I love.  I'm not much of a career-oriented person yet though.  I have no idea what direction I'm headed.

Well anyway, good luck Choder.

[ALady]

My advice would be to take a long, hard look at what makes you happy.  I sometimes regret that I'm not saving the world with my current job, but the hours are flexible, my boss and coworkers are great, and we get an assload of vacation time.  I don't make a ton of money, but I have classmates who work for the same firm, make bank, and are miserable because of the crazy hours and stress.

I think it's good to work hard and get experience, especially fresh out of school, but remember to consider your quality of life - I think that's something a lot of attorneys don't think about or prioritize.

[el_chode]

My advice would be to take a long, hard look at what makes you happy.  I sometimes regret that I'm not saving the world with my current job, but the hours are flexible, my boss and coworkers are great, and we get an assload of vacation time.  I don't make a ton of money, but I have classmates who work for the same firm, make bank, and are miserable because of the crazy hours and stress.

I think it's good to work hard and get experience, especially fresh out of school, but remember to consider your quality of life - I think that's something a lot of attorneys don't think about or prioritize.

Quality of life is the best way to put what I'm evaluating.

At a certain level, no matter how much moral satisfaction I have, it won't matter if I'm defaulting on loans and choosing between bills and eating.

The flipside is that it doesn't matter how much you make if you dread going to work or don't have time to go to concerts and spend the money you earn.

I'm sending a counter offer in today, but I'm leaning towards not taking this one. As my Mother In Law said, "you just started looking, why give up on your goals so soon?"

[ALady]

Exactly. 

And remember you can always do pro bono work if you end up with a sweet gig working for Satan.

[el_chode]

Exactly. 

And remember you can always do pro bono work if you end up with a sweet gig working for Satan.

It's part of my plan, actually. Once I learn a bit more about litigating in Federal Court, I hope to take up some First Amendment work pro bono, especially on behalf of artists and students.

[aMillionDreams]

I know it sounds cheesy, but follow your heart. I've been blessed with great bosses and I really think that's key.  So is doing something you believe in.  I hear you about taking the first thing that comes. You're obviously a talented dude, so don't sell yourself short.  I don't think I need to tell you that money is not all that important, just practical.  Follow your heart and everything you've hoped for will follow. 

[el_chode]

I know it sounds cheesy, but follow your heart. I've been blessed with great bosses and I really think that's key.  So is doing something you believe in.  I hear you about taking the first thing that comes. You're obviously a talented dude, so don't sell yourself short.  I don't think I need to tell you that money is not all that important, just practical.  Follow your heart and everything you've hoped for will follow.

See my gut is saying don't take it, it's just a practical consideration at this point. Cut my losses and not have it be in such a bad way.

Anyway, unrelated - there is this really insulting job offering listed on Craigslist:

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/lgl/2283555407.html

So I posted my own response:

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/lgl/2284240624.html

[Penny Lane]

chode, i hate to be the a**hole, but it's a really tough market out there..and you have loans so i while i think quality of life and following your heart are good, i think you should take it if they come back at you with what you want (maybe even if they don't)--i just know too many law school grads who are unemployed right now or doing temp/doc review/ experience will pay off later

[el_chode]

chode, i hate to be the a**hole, but it's a really tough market out there..and you have loans so i while i think quality of life and following your heart are good, i think you should take it if they come back at you with what you want (maybe even if they don't)--i just know too many law school grads who are unemployed right now or doing temp/doc review/ experience will pay off later

I am, but I'm not hopeful they'll meet my demands. I'm submitting a counter offer today, and I'm dragging it out as long as I can (they said they're going to need at least a week to consider my counter). If they're willing to match my counter offer of slightly more money for slightly less time commitment, I'll likely take it.