Occupy Wall Street

[PeaceMaker]

Here is an excellent article on why protesters are protesting.  Make sure you go the bottom of the page and click on-  "click here to see what the protestors are so upset about"  -it will take you to 41 slides which do a very good job expressing in a clear manor what is and has been occurring in this country.  This information is very important to have IMO before continuing a debate  regarding the movement. 

/www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10

[el_chode]

I agree with Penny. Protests like this won't affect anything for one reason: Corporations don't owe you shit. They are not accountable to you. If you want them to be, become a shareholder. That's that.

Who is accountable to you? The Government. But go poll the protesters and see how many know what district they reside in, who their representative is; when does their state hold state elections next, what their federal representative's voting record is. Voting isn't sexy. It's not fun. Basic civics are boring, which is why we all ignored them in High School or make fun of Liberal Arts majors.

The protests are the equivalent of staking a McDonalds until they agree to serve you a whopper.

You want change? Run for office. Or just vote. Protest the government. The reason the 60s protests worked was because they were protesting government policy. They were pissed about many things - civil rights (gov't policy), the war (gov't policy), corruption (again, policy).

Protesting Wall St. will not make the SEC any more accountable. It won't change anything besides cause the corporations you hate to become more entrenched and solidify their power further.

Who allowed the corporations to get away with this? The gov't.

==

Pt. 2: to the guy who asked me what street wall st was on this weekend in the village - be smart about your protest. Pick your fights:

Occupy Wall Street 10/15/11 NYPD arrest Times Square

Unless I missed something in law school, "trusting the police" does not equal entrapment. Your outrage won't win you any fans when it is fundamentally misplaced.

[Penny Lane]

That is a really good, informative slide show, Peacemaker. I think everyone should watch that. I also hope most people understand the income disparity by now. My original comment was not questioning the reasons behind the protest, I questioned the organization and methods of bringing about change. Income inequality, lack of jobs, these are things worth protesting.

Sticky, this is a message board. All I can DO here is state my opinion. I'm not sure why that's so awful.  None of us can see into the future. I'm not going to get into Reagan and everything else you said, it wasn't related to what I originally said. And yes, I know some artists have been playing different shows. Remember Live Aid in 1986 when Phil Muther-F-ckin Collins played on 2 continents and Chevy Chased hosted? That was some  mobilization. All artists have to ban together and there should be protests in every major city, not just NYC, Boston and a few others.

So I open the new Rolling Stone mag today and I see Matt Taibbi's article "My Advice to the Protestors" and the subheading is "Don't just occupy Wall Street-hit bankers where it hurts". Matt Taibbi's been writing mind-blowing articles on Goldman Sachs, AIG, and the SEC for a year now, blowing the roof off anyone's understanding of how CDOs work and what's really going on down on Wall Street. He likes the idea of these protests but says they need to organize into concrete goals and really go after specific agencies/laws/rules/ways public money is used. He suggests focusing on 5 demands:

1. Break up the monopolies
2. Pay for your own bailouts
3. No public money for private lobbying
4. Tax hedge-fund gamblers
5. Change the way bankers get paid

I just think my main point was this is not the way to build a massive grassroots movement. I think the best changes come about by being FOR things rather than being AGAINST them...it's really easy to say this isn't fair or right, but how do we make it better? Just think the protestors should put their focus elsewhere other than these occupy movements.

[el_chode]

I've agreed with Taibbi except for "change how bankers get paid". That's not my business. The banks can pay their employees however they see fit. However, should they insist on doing so, a few things need to happen:

1) The market needs to be structured so that there are viable options for shareholders to jump to for a safe investment in order to protest what they feel is an inequitable business practice

2) It should not be on the backs of taxpayers. If they want to continue to have taxpayers fund their business, then consider them nationalized and then we can structure their pay scales

3) They should not be rewarded for poor investments. Whenever I see foreclosures, after I get over my anger at someone willing to pay half a million dollars for a 2 br, 1 bath ranch on a busy road in a shitty suburb of NYC, I get mad at the banks who were shocked to find their risky investments were risky and they ended up with the collateral they demanded.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

really disappointed by the yuppies in this thread.  much respect has been lost for those who think these protests are bullshit.  both chode and penny, I'm sorry but the attitude you two display is the attitude that will eventually kill our country.   "nothing can be done, fuck it". way too apathetic for me.   you guys seem disconnected, not the protestors.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

I love how you two think you have the answers but dis on these protestors.  it's arrogant as fuck, how can't you see that?

[Tracy 2112]

The Tea Partiers say our country is being destroyed.

The Occupy Wall Streeters say our country is being destroyed.

And, we're all going to die one day; I think I'll go stare at the moon...  ::)

Good Luck!  :)

[Tracy 2112]

I agree with Penny. Protests like this won't affect anything for one reason: Corporations don't owe you shit. They are not accountable to you. If you want them to be, become a shareholder. That's that.

Who is accountable to you? The Government. But go poll the protesters and see how many know what district they reside in, who their representative is; when does their state hold state elections next, what their federal representative's voting record is. Voting isn't sexy. It's not fun. Basic civics are boring, which is why we all ignored them in High School or make fun of Liberal Arts majors.

The protests are the equivalent of staking a McDonalds until they agree to serve you a whopper.

You want change? Run for office. Or just vote. Protest the government. The reason the 60s protests worked was because they were protesting government policy. They were pissed about many things - civil rights (gov't policy), the war (gov't policy), corruption (again, policy).

Protesting Wall St. will not make the SEC any more accountable. It won't change anything besides cause the corporations you hate to become more entrenched and solidify their power further.

Who allowed the corporations to get away with this? The gov't.

this 

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

you really articulated yourself well there tracy, A+ work with the thumbs up.

[PeaceMaker]

"Corporations don't owe us shit---"  here is a recent quote to thoughtfully reconsider the conclusion that corporations don't owe society (us) anything (shit)

"There is nobody in this country who got rich on their own. Nobody. You built a factory out there - good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory... Now look. You built a factory and it turned into something terrific or a great idea - God bless! Keep a hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."
― Elizabeth Warren

Now if you accept the above statement and link it with the facts in the slide presentation I posted and then ask yourself if corporations should be gracious and thankful to society (us) who in the large picture support them with our taxes, our commerce--and for those who work for them-- part of their time in life. You may find room in your conclusion for some questioning of your thinking...however small... it always starts small...then grows of whether corporations "don't owe us shit" to perhaps corporations may owe us (society-- you and me) something... however small...     

I think it is ok to ask people to be kind and fair to one another--- and corporations are made up of people.

I also feel that any form of a person standing up for themselves should not be judged provided it is not in violent form.  People camping out together in unity is a beautiful thing....will it ultimately be effective....it is yet to be determined.  But we can all agree that if they simply did nothing that that  wouldn't have the chance to influence any change at all. 

[woodnymph]

Well, I don't want to hop into this one too deep, but I'm really refreshed to finally see people making some kind of relatively non-violent scene about things.  Or maybe it's more violent than I know of (I haven't watched the youtube, but I see the title of the cop punching a girl...)  I haven't really involved myself enough in the witnessing of the whole thing.  I ran into a friend from herb school the other day who headed over to Wall Street and camped alongside the others for 4-5 days the other week, and he reported back positive people and experiences.  Guess it's all how you look at it.

I like when things get stirred up, in any case.  Peacemaker, I'm liking your posts!  You've made a lovely entrance to the board, welcome!  :)

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

thank you peacemaker, I think you saved me from having an aneurism.

[PeaceMaker]

I would also add that these peoples form of protest has been effective in countless ways.  In the moment it has influenced (effected) the creation of a thread on a bands website that otherwise may not have been here; has influenced several of you to question "better" ways to protest/that they should protest; has created a dialogue between some members of this forum which has made the readers of the posts think about the subject; and has influenced me to post on a site I typically just peruse cause the band members seem cool and genuine and I like to see cool genuine people do well.  I'd say by all accounts that the movement is moving people... including all of us who have posted here regardless of agreement.   Amazing!   How many more people will it move...and to what extent... to what end..........................

[woodnymph]

Peacemaker you officially receive the award for best/most appropriate board name ever!!!

Thank you for expressing exactly how I feel better than I myself was able to convey!

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

Peacemaker you officially receive the award for best/most appropriate board name ever!!!

Thank you for expressing exactly how I feel better than I myself was able to convey!

I liked your post too nymph.  the elizabeth warren quote peacemaker posted was on the money.  I love that bitch for some reason.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

[Occupytimessquare] 1 Marine vs. 30 Cops (Marine Wins)

[woodnymph]

Peacemaker you officially receive the award for best/most appropriate board name ever!!!

Thank you for expressing exactly how I feel better than I myself was able to convey!

I liked your post too nymph.  the elizabeth warren quote peacemaker posted was on the money.  I love that bitch for some reason.

Oh man, I can only agree!  I have a tough time expressing my thoughts and feelings on these kinds of things. I tend to, well, stray from the topic if you can imagine me doing such a thing hahahah  Peacemaker has brought the focus and precision to what I think we've maybe all been feeling, to different degrees  :)  We're all in this crazy thing together.....

[el_chode]

"Corporations don't owe us shit---"  here is a recent quote to thoughtfully reconsider the conclusion that corporations don't owe society (us) anything (shit)

"There is nobody in this country who got rich on their own. Nobody. You built a factory out there - good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory... Now look. You built a factory and it turned into something terrific or a great idea - God bless! Keep a hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."
― Elizabeth Warren

Now if you accept the above statement and link it with the facts in the slide presentation I posted and then ask yourself if corporations should be gracious and thankful to society (us) who in the large picture support them with our taxes, our commerce--and for those who work for them-- part of their time in life. You may find room in your conclusion for some questioning of your thinking...however small... it always starts small...then grows of whether corporations "don't owe us shit" to perhaps corporations may owe us (society-- you and me) something... however small...     

I think it is ok to ask people to be kind and fair to one another--- and corporations are made up of people.

I also feel that any form of a person standing up for themselves should not be judged provided it is not in violent form.  People camping out together in unity is a beautiful thing....will it ultimately be effective....it is yet to be determined.  But we can all agree that if they simply did nothing that that  wouldn't have the chance to influence any change at all.

It's idealist. Not reality.

Corporations are more robotic than human. Maybe cylon. Maybe. They are beholden to one group only: shareholders. That's it. It's a legal, binding duty and obligation. In fact, the CEO and the board of directors can face serious legal issues should they forget that notion.

That is the reality. You must accept it before you can change it. Until there is a legal duty owed to the public, a corporate entity will never ever ever do what makes the public happy unless it is part of its business model (e.g. Zappos).

So you can go on and on about what many philosophers, politicians, and other brains have thought about the matter, but the fact is that until anyone who wants to make a change understands what I just posted, nothing is gonna happen. Ever. Which brings me back to my point form before: you want a change - blockade the offices of your representative. He has two ears and hears two voices - the $$ from the corporation paying him to cover their ass, or your stank ass body outside his door for weeks on end. The senator is your employee; the CEO is not. It should not be complicated to get a congressional inquiry into the misuse of taxpayer money. Unfortunately, Congress is focused only on Solyndra and not the banks.

Even FDR knew this when he put Andrew Mellon on trial in 1935. He was so persistent that when they couldn't indict the banker, they made him sit through a civil proceeding that they knew was a sham if only to give the public some faith in the government.

http://www.economist.com/node/8077461

You can label me all you want, use of a personal attack reveals your own weaknesses. The fact remains that I've been out in the trenches; I've paid my dues and fought the good fight for political dissatisfaction. It nearly cost me my future, and I lost big time. But I did it by actually effectuating a change and getting my hands dirty in the system and the process, not by yelling louder than the next guy.

[The DARK]

Lots of good points flying in this thread, especially Peacemaker's quote. Chode and Penny Lane are right; these protests aren't going to solve anything by themselves, because the current system doesn't hold Wall Street accountable to you, the citizen. It's an entity in itself; Wall Street isn't trying to sell you a product, it's selling a product to big business, tempting them to invest foolishly with your money and your jobs. You aren't their target market. However, you are politicians' target market, and they are the ones who have the power to hold Wall Street and big businesses accountable for what they do. And Peacemaker is right; big businesses do hold a social contract. They owe us for the opportunities that generations of American taxpayers has given them. If they aren't required to pay back to society what we've given them through our tax money, then they get rich and the rest of us only get back our market value, which is diminishing by the year (surely many people here can relate to their job becoming obsolete thanks to new technology or cheaper replacement workers). That's not good for American society, and as citizens, we're obliged to demand our representatives to enact better regulation of the corporate system.

I'd like to add, however, that as good as that sounds, there's that other viewpoint (the Tea Party) that says that those policies often drives those businesses to foreign countries, where accountability is less stringent. It's a fatalistic view to be sure, but money is a nasty business to be sure. If that's true, then we're stuck between watching businesses depart for greener pastures, or watching as the middle class disintegrates and our value as workers circles the drain. I'm inclined to believe that the latter is more serious, but it's important to compare the two.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

It's idealist. Not reality.

Corporations are more robotic than human. Maybe cylon. Maybe. They are beholden to one group only: shareholders. That's it. It's a legal, binding duty and obligation. In fact, the CEO and the board of directors can face serious legal issues should they forget that notion.

That is the reality. You must accept it before you can change it. Until there is a legal duty owed to the public, a corporate entity will never ever ever do what makes the public happy unless it is part of its business model (e.g. Zappos).

So you can go on and on about what many philosophers, politicians, and other brains have thought about the matter, but the fact is that until anyone who wants to make a change understands what I just posted, nothing is gonna happen. Ever. Which brings me back to my point form before: you want a change - blockade the offices of your representative. He has two ears and hears two voices - the $$ from the corporation paying him to cover their ass, or your stank ass body outside his door for weeks on end. The senator is your employee; the CEO is not. It should not be complicated to get a congressional inquiry into the misuse of taxpayer money. Unfortunately, Congress is focused only on Solyndra and not the banks.

Even FDR knew this when he put Andrew Mellon on trial in 1935. He was so persistent that when they couldn't indict the banker, they made him sit through a civil proceeding that they knew was a sham if only to give the public some faith in the government.

http://www.economist.com/node/8077461

You can label me all you want, use of a personal attack reveals your own weaknesses. The fact remains that I've been out in the trenches; I've paid my dues and fought the good fight for political dissatisfaction. It nearly cost me my future, and I lost big time. But I did it by actually effectuating a change and getting my hands dirty in the system and the process, not by yelling louder than the next guy.

sounds like you have some protests you need to setup.   you're right that the corps. and dbags who have exploited the system won't pay their dues unless they're made to but I think that is one of the basic problems of this.  it's a system that once worked well then thru whatever chain of events has now become completely dysfunctional.  we're getting bled.  you can't re-write any type of policy with the current congress we have.  plus a presidential election cycle is coming up.  the next 14months are going to be a fucking circus one way or the other.  I don't think it's idealistic at all to strive for some of these basic ideas.  if people become more aware of what's going on in this country it will have been a success.  we are a stupid fucking country, myself included in that generalization.   corporate media is slanted and bias, they do not cover stories that matter so hope of them making our society better is worthless.  they're the same as the rest of the mf'ers who are only worried about short term market share, some quick revenue.  or whatever.  the transition that needs to take place is massive.  it goes against the status quo and it involves a small bit of optimism. if that's idealistic then every positive idea for change that hasn't been implemented must be also.   being creative, innovative, etc comes from being slightly idealistic, no?   



my apologies for being a dick.