Concert-related hearing loss

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

Thanks ericm,  I've been raging all morning, btw. And I have proper ear protection.

Sticky - My 91 year old neighbor worked in the switching building at the telephone company for years. It made him deaf. He would love to go back in time and wear ear protection. This isn't something to be hard-headed about. They are your ears, and if you want to lose your hearing, fine. Just don't advocate it for anyone else. I know that no one takes what you said in this thread seriously, but still - no.

I'm just saying you guys sound like pussies that's all.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

No, Sticky.

it's not my fault you don't know how to rage.

Trust me, Fully can rage. 

The thing you're missing is people can rage, and wear ear protection. Good ear protection is not going to affect the enjoyment, or enthusiasm of a person's show, or the sound quality. It will only affect their enjoyment of hearing clearly afterwards.   

1.) I do not believe fully can fully rage with earplugs.
2.) wearing ear protection shields you from the vibe.  undeniably so.

[Fully]

No. What would make me a pussy would be if I let someone bully me into reckless behavior that could cause permanent damage. You've only got one body. Take care of it. If I didn't go to shows as often as I do, I would be fine with not wearing ear protection. But since I want to be able to hear live music until I have to roll into a show in my hover round, I will protect myself.

[ericm]

No, Sticky.

it's not my fault you don't know how to rage.

Trust me, Fully can rage. 

The thing you're missing is people can rage, and wear ear protection. Good ear protection is not going to affect the enjoyment, or enthusiasm of a person's show, or the sound quality. It will only affect their enjoyment of hearing clearly afterwards.   

1.) I do not believe fully can fully rage with earplugs.
2.) wearing ear protection shields you from the vibe.  undeniably so.

Hence the words "good ear protection" in my post. I'm not talking putting chewed bubble gum in our ears.    c'mon man, this ain't amateur hour here!

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

No. What would make me a pussy would be if I let someone bully me into reckless behavior that could cause permanent damage. You've only got one body. Take care of it. If I didn't go to shows as often as I do, I would be fine with not wearing ear protection. But since I want to be able to hear live music until I have to roll into a show in my hover round, I will protect myself.

it makes you the hugest blown out pussy biznatch.  shit.  only one time EVER have I gone home from a show my ears were fucked up for a couple days.  it was alkaline trio way back in either 99 or 2000.  but like the rest of my body, it fixed itself after a few days. every 7years your bodies cells regenerate.  I'm not going to plan to be 100 and rocking at shows, I'm going to plan to be alive right now and I'm going to plan to rage.  and one thing that hinders a mans raging is rubber gobs of dick getting crammed in your ear.  sound is a physical thing.  there are frequencys, and dare I say even emotional aspects you lose when you put anything between your ear and the music.  it's about vibrations and pulses bruh.  so fully, learn to rage and get back to me when you're deaf.  the most you have to worry about is saying "WHAT?!" more often.  fuck you guys are PUSSIES.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

No, Sticky.

it's not my fault you don't know how to rage.

Trust me, Fully can rage. 

The thing you're missing is people can rage, and wear ear protection. Good ear protection is not going to affect the enjoyment, or enthusiasm of a person's show, or the sound quality. It will only affect their enjoyment of hearing clearly afterwards.   

1.) I do not believe fully can fully rage with earplugs.
2.) wearing ear protection shields you from the vibe.  undeniably so.

Hence the words "good ear protection" in my post. I'm not talking putting chewed bubble gum in our ears.    c'mon man, this ain't amateur hour here!

saying "good ear protection" is the same as saying "man wearing a condon feels the same as raw doggin' it".  come on, e-rock.  you know what up.  don't let these hoochies soften your thick, hard, manly skin.

[Fully]

I love it when you talk dirty to me, Sticky.

[adastra]

I would say Sticky going deaf might not be the worst thing in the world, except that without the distraction of listening to music he'd have even more free time to troll.

[ericm]

Haha Sticky, you are a funny cat, I'll give you that. I always get a kick out of your posts, and glad to have this old place back so we can see more of them.

Don't worry about me. Hoochie or hottie, it makes no difference, ain't no one gonna change this man. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and this man has gotta protect his ears. After all these years, and all these shows, I know what I've got to do if I want to keep enjoying them. I sure as hell don't want to be saying "what, what" over and over when I'm rocking the rail with my grand kids.   

[oistheone]

Well, took five days but my hearing has almost returned to normal. Was getting quite worried about it for a while there. Considering how big a role music plays in my life, I don't know WHAT I'd do if my left ear was fried. Thank goodness for temporary hearing damage.

Many thanks to those who posted links for earplugs. Two very important lessons learned here -- protect your ears, and don't stand a foot in front of the stacks at a Jack White show.

[Fully]

I'm glad it's getting better. That would be awful if it hadn't.

[Sticky Icky Green Stuff]

I'm glad it's getting better. That would be awful if it hadn't.

you need to get off your high horse until you present some kind of study or analysis of concert goer hearing damage.  I bet longer term problems are minimal across the board.   his ears healed, exactly like I said they would.  don't fucking doubt me, sometimes I think I'm satan.

[woodnymph]

Yeeahhh I'm at the point now where I can tell exactly the level that's going to leave me buzzing after a show... I have a serious disdain for laying down trying to sleep, and hearing that buzz, fighting for silence.

My pops told me as soon as I started going to concerts that I should wear earplugs; and he worked in construction and whatnot his whole life, so he would just give me a giant bag of like 75 pairs. It took me awhile, but I gave them a try when I was probably 17 or 18, and I used to wear them and hide my ears under my assorted hats (actually cared what people thought!) I've been hooked ever since... I've got a technique down though, for sure-- It's more effort than any anti-earplugger can bear to imagine, but I wiggle the dang things around depending on overall volume level at shows. Not every 30 seconds or anything, but for slow, slow tunes and banter I take 'em out altogether. And sometimes the audience is effin' louder than the music. I find myself pressing against my ears, covering them even more during applause sometimes. (And I'm one of the loudest in the audience... guilty as charged-- I'll yelp and scream and do Mexican warcries and howling to high hell)

But there you have it, a long ramble. And who knows if the plugs have helped?? There's just no telling... sometimes I can hear surprisingly distant things (and I'm sensitive to electronic sounds and whirrs and beeps, etc... I can tell if a television is on mute 3 rooms away by the high pitch sound it emits, and I can hear if my record player receiver is left on... I can also hear my cell phone charging from across the room, if I leave it plugged in....) And sometimes I have to ask someone to repeat something so much it's annoying to everyone involved.  All I can say is I've at least found where I'm comfortable at and encourage anyone to do the same, regardless of if it's wearing earplugs or not. Do whatcha gotta do   

[Fully]

I'm glad it's getting better. That would be awful if it hadn't.

you need to get off your high horse until you present some kind of study or analysis of concert goer hearing damage.  I bet longer term problems are minimal across the board.   his ears healed, exactly like I said they would.  don't fucking doubt me, sometimes I think I'm satan.

This is my favorite threat ever, Stick.

[adastra]

I'm glad it's getting better. That would be awful if it hadn't.

you need to get off your high horse until you present some kind of study or analysis of concert goer hearing damage.  I bet longer term problems are minimal across the board.   his ears healed, exactly like I said they would.  don't fucking doubt me, sometimes I think I'm satan.

Look it up.  Osha is the least stringent set of standards for hearing safety and they define 105dB-A for one hour as the maximum safe exposure time.  Niosh standards (which are more recent) are even more strict.  Most rock shows are right in that range, so an MMJ show (without hearing protection) at 3 hours is 200% over the limit of safe listening.  O experienced "Threshold Shift" which is usually temporary but without sufficient recovery time can lead to chronic and permanent loss.  The recovery time aspect is key, which is good for concert goers, as a loud show a few times a year probably isn't that serious, but if you are a musician or go to shows every single weekend you are putting yourself at serious risk.  One study published by the NIH concluded the following:

Tinnitus and hypersensitivity to sound were observed in a significant minority within a group of nonprofessional pop/rock musicians who had experienced repeated exposure to intense sound levels over at least 5 yr but with minimal impact on their lives. Moreover, hearing loss was minimal in the subjects who always used ear protection, being only 0.9 dB higher than the control group. In contrast, hearing loss was significantly more pronounced, at 6.7 dB higher than the control group, in those musicians who never used ear protection

Basically this study shows about 20% of those regularly exposed to concert levels without earplugs experienced significant hearing loss.  Keep it in mind and make your decisions, but don't be bullied into thinking that earplugs prevent you from vibing out.  Plenty of people with a lot of vibe wear hearing protection - Jim James, Roger Waters, and Jimmy Page to name a couple. 

[walterfredo]

if you don't want to suffer extreme hearing loss in your later years as a result of excessive concert noise....y'all are a bunch of pussies  .  Yep.  Eff that, I aint one. 

"huh, can you say that louder? I can't hear you"

[e_wind]

My parents are both Audiologists, and for some reason they have never ever suggested that I wear ear plugs, knowing how often I go to shows. maybe they just know if anything happens I'll be garunteed good, free service.

seriously though, if anyone wants any professional advice (i didn't read the whole thread) I could ask my dad and he'll be so excited and nerdy about it he may just make an account and break it down to everyone.

[Shug]

Hey, guys, guess what?  I AM an audiologist and I DO get nerdily excited when I get a chance to spout off about what I've spent years studying and working with everyday.

First:
Noise induced hearing loss is fucking permanent.  The physiological location of the damage is not the eardrum, its the hair cells in the inner ear.  They DO NOT grow back in humans! (Some birds and reptiles can regenerate their ear hair cells, but getting this to happen for humans is many years off, if it ever happens).  Your ears do NOT get tougher with more noise, in fact the opposite is true, the more damage your ears sustain, the bigger the "weak spot" in your inner ear and the more susceptible you are to more damage.  Plus, most people don't notice the permanent build up of damage until its pretty far gone.  Noise induced hearing loss is insidious and I think its important for people to understand it so they can make well informed choices about hearing protection.

The damage that noise does to your hearing starts at 3000 Hz to 6000 Hz.  It does not matter if the noise is low pitched or high pitched, both are damaging and they do the same damage if the sound is loud enough.  What does matter is how loud it is, how long you are exposed to it and if your ears get breaks from the noise during the exposure.  Also the same noise might do more or less damage to different people for reasons that are not proven.

Here's how it works:  Loud sounds come into your ear.  If they are really loud and/or for a long time, the microscopic hairs in your ear that bend over and then are supposed to snap back up straight get bent over or maybe even sheared off altogether.  Think of it like a foot print in grass that bends the grass over.  The heavier the foot and the longer the foot is there, the less the grass springs back up.  If the foot is really heavy and its there for a long time, it could kill the grass in that spot altogether.

So when you go to a show and you immediately feel plugged up, muffled hearing or ears ringing, you have definitely done some damage to your inner ear hair cells, mostly in those pitches I mentioned above.  Within a day or two, much of that damage will recover, thus you might feel like your hearing is 100% recovered, but that is usually not true.  Say you recover 90% of the damage after a few days.  The 10% that didn't recover (that is too small and in a frequency range that is very difficult for you to notice) is PERMANENT.  Now you have a weak spot in your inner ear at 3000 Hz - 6000 Hz and the next time you are exposed to noise you will not only do more damage in the same range of frequencies, but you will also start to do damage to other frequencies, like 2000 Hz and 8000 Hz.  Each exposure has a certain amount of temporary damage that recovers after a day or two, and each exposure leaves you with a little bit more unnoticeable permanent damage.  You can definitely do a lot of permanent damage to your ears without noticing it for many years. 

There is no medicine or surgery to repair noise-induced hearing loss.  The only thing you can do is to prevent it with hearing protection.  There is some preliminary evidence that taking 450 mg of magnesium daily can reduce tinnitus (ringing in the ears) in some patients and maybe it might make some people a little less susceptible to noise induced loss, but that in no way means you should forego hearing protection.  You should not take any supplements or medications without consulting a physician (sorry for the legal disclaimer, gotta do it, though  )  If you want to know if you have noise induced hearing loss, you have to get a hearing test and it should probably include a test called otoacoustic emissions (OAE)  that measures the function of the inner ear hair cells.  It can be a more sensitive test to noise-induced loss than a basic hearing test (ie it might detect the beginnings of noise induced hearing loss even when a basic hearing test comes out normal). .  Most audiologists should be able to give you an OAE test.

I use earplugs that fit my ears only (custom fit) with 15 dB Eytmotic filters that have basically a flat freq. response.  The other brand mentioned above does the same thing, both are excellent.  They are designed to keep the treble/bass ratio intact while bring the volume down just enough to not do damage.  They aren't perfect (your own voice will sound louder when you talk or sing along) and it takes some getting used to the physical fit and the different sound quality, but they are MUCH better than foam plugs that take sound down too much (~25 dB) and worse, they take out lots of treble and let through more bass, so you get a very bass-y sound, you lose the cymbals and guitar solos in the high pitches.

If you have any questions for me, fire away.  I love to get to talk about the things I know about hearing and if it helps people, then it becomes awesome.

[ericm]

::Pops popcorn while waiting for Sticky's response to Shug::   

Thanks for the insight Shug. That's pretty much what I've heard over the years, but nice to have it confirmed,and explained in detail by a pro.    

[johnnYYac]

Yes, thanks for the insight.  When I visit my Dad and have to type our conversation onto a laptop connected to a TV, I know I need to protect my hearing.  I forgot my ER plugs for the Jim & Carl show and was right in front of the right speaker stack.  I KNOW I did damage.