The Gun Debate

[johnnYYac]

I am a teacher.  This is my 18th year.  As a student teacher in Greensboro, NC, I faced an armed student (loaded 45 caliber handgun).  In my current school, here in NH, I detained a student for a weapon; turned out to be a loaded revolver of some kind.  The events of Friday in CT tear at my heart. 

The intent of the 18-century 2nd Amendment was not this.  We need to make it difficult for ordinary folks to own guns designed to kill a lot of people, easily.  I'm not saying ban them, but there is a difference between a drivers license and a commercial drivers license.  There should be a higher standard for non-hunting weapons, as well.  There need to be strict laws regarding the safe storage of guns and ammunition.  We need a limit on high-capacity clips.  We need a waiting period and thorough and fair background check.  And a permanent ban on assault weapons and fully-automatic firearms. 

Some interesting things...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/



DID YOU KNOW? In one year on average, almost 100,000 people in America are shot or killed with a gun.

•In one year, 31,593 people died from gun violence and 66,769 people survived gun injuries (National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC)). That includes:

◦12,179 people murdered and 44,466 people shot in an attack (NCIPC).


◦18,223 people who killed themselves and 3,031 people who survived a suicide attempt with a gun (NCIPC).


◦592 people who were killed unintentionally and 18,610 who were shot unintentionally but survived (NCIPC).



•Over a million people have been killed with guns in the United States since 1968, when Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy were assassinated (Childrens' Defense Fund, p. 20).


•U.S. homicide rates are 6.9 times higher than rates in 22 other populous high-income countries combined, despite similar non-lethal crime and violence rates. The firearm homicide rate in the U.S. is 19.5 times higher (Richardson, p.1).


•Among 23 populous, high-income countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States (Richardson, p. 1).

•Gun violence impacts society in countless ways: medical costs, costs of the criminal justice system, security precautions such as metal detectors, and reductions in quality of life because of fear of gun violence. These impacts are estimated to cost U.S. citizens $100 billion annually (Cook, 2000).

DID YOU KNOW? Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths. •An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).

•Higher household gun ownership correlates with higher rates of homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings (Harvard Injury Control Center).

•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17 (Kellermann, 1992, p. 467; Wiebe, p. 771).

•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of homicide by a factor of 3 (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).

DID YOU KNOW? On the whole, guns are more likely to raise the risk of injury than to confer protection.

•A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a completed or attempted suicide (11x), criminal assault or homicide (7x), or unintentional shooting death or injury (4x) than to be used in a self-defense shooting. (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).

•Guns are used to intimidate and threaten 4 to 6 times more often than they are used to thwart crime (Hemenway, p. 269).

•Every year there are only about 200 legally justified self-defense homicides by private citizens (FBI, Expanded Homicide Data, Table 15) compared with over 30,000 gun deaths (NCIPC).

•A 2009 study found that people in possession of a gun are 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault (Branas).

DID YOU KNOW? Assaults and suicide attempts with firearms are much more likely to be fatal than those perpetrated with less lethal weapons or means. Removing guns saves lives.

•There are five times as many deaths from gun assaults as from knife assaults, where the rates of assault with knives and with guns are similar (Zimring, p. 199).

•More than 90 percent of suicide attempts with a gun are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626). In comparison, only 3 percent of attempts with drugs or cutting are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626).

DID YOU KNOW? Guns can be sold in the United States without a background check to screen out criminals or the mentally ill.

•It is estimated that over forty percent of gun acquisitions occur in the secondary market. That means that they happen without a Brady background check at a federally licensed dealer (Cook, p. 26).

•Sales from federal firearm licensees (FFLs) require a background check. Sales between individuals, under federal law, do not require a background check. This means that felons can "lie and buy" at gun shows and other places where guns are readily available.

SOLUTION: We need to make it harder for convicted felons, the dangerously mentally ill, and other prohibited persons to obtain guns by implementing strong gun laws and policies that will protect our families and communities from gun violence.

Sources

Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, based on Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997, 46(5): 101-105; United Nations Tenth Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, 2005-2006; Australian Institute of Criminology. National Homicide Monitoring Program Annual Report 2006-2007; Home Office Statistical Bulletin, "England / Wales: Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2006/07"; Population References (except England and Wales): Population Reference Bureau, 2006 World Population Data Sheet; Population estimates for England and Wales

Branas et al, "Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault," American Journal of Public Health, 99(11)(2009), published online ahead of print, Sep 17, 2009

Children's Defense Fund, Protect Children Not Guns 2009, September 2009

Cook, Philip J, and Jens Ludwig, Gun Violence: The Real Costs, New York, NY: Oxford University Press, 2000

Cook, PJ and J Ludwig, Guns in America: Results of a Comprehensive National Survey on Firearms Ownership and Use, (Washington, DC: Police Foundation, 1996).

Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports, Crime in the United States, 2008, Expanded Homicide Data Table 15 and Table 15

Harvard School of Public Health: Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Homicide – Suicide – Accidents – Children and Women, Boston: Harvard School of Public Health, 2009, http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

Hemenway, David and Deborah Azrael., "The Relative Frequency of Offensive and Defensive Gun Uses: Results From a National Survey," Violence and Victims, 15(3) (2000): 257-272

Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., "Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home," Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, 45(2) (1998): 263-267

Kellermann, Arthur L. MD, MPH, et al., "Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home," New England Journal of Medicine, 329(15) (1993): 1084-1091

Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership," New England Journal of Medicine, 327(7) (1992): 467-472

Miller, Matthew, David Hemenway, Deborah Azrael, "Firearms and Suicide in the Northeast," Journal of Trauma 57 (2004):626-632. (See also: E. D. Shenassa, S. N. Catlin, S. L Buka, "Lethality of Firearms Relative to Other Suicide Methods: A Population Based Study," Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 57 (2003): 120-124.

National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (2008 (deaths) and 2009 (injuries). Calculations by Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

Richardson, Erin G., and David Hemenway, "Homicide, Suicide, and Unintentional Firearm Fatality: Comparing the United States With Other High-Income Countries, 2003," Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, published online ahead of print, June 2010

Wiebe, Douglas J. PhD. "Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated With Firearms in the Home: A National Case-Control Study," Annals of Emergency Medicine 41 (2003): 771-82.

Zimring, Franklin, and Gordon Hawkins, Crime is not the Problem: Lethal Violence in America, New York: Oxford University Press, 1997

[e_wind]

I couldn't agree more. I'm so tired of the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" bullshit. People are killing people with no method of defense. Our current laws are beyond fucked up.

[Shug]

Thank you for all that information, John.  I'm with ya.

Here's some more info.
http://gunvictimsaction.org/blog/2012/09/gun-fact-3-number-of-police-officers-killed-by-guns-last-22-years-u-s-1132-england-10-why/

[exist10z]

But if everyone had a gun we could shoot the people who are shooting people, we need more guns, like the old west...

You can't talk sense to gun people.  Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox. 

Like so many subjects in this country, you're never going to have people looking at things honestly and objectively, or look at facts, because they have an interest in a particular side (money, ideology, in-group identification, politics, so-called 'freedom', whatever).  There is a foundational issue in our country, one more prevalent here than in other modern industrialized societies, and guns are just a small slice of that maladaptive pie.   

[Tracy 2112]

I appreciate the thread JY. I was wondering how we have a civil and sane discussion about guns in our nation without the fringe elements from both sides taking over. It's a discussion deeply rooted in fear on both sides; real and imagined fears. I certainly don't want to live in a society where the only armed people are government officials and I certainly don't want to live in a society where everyone is armed. It's not an-all or-nothing argument (as a FB friend suggested that if we ban guns we will need to ban electrical cords b/c you can kill someone with an electrical cord too), it's about sanity and compromise. We don't "need" assault rifles. And as I type that, I can hear some of my more conservative friends reply, "Well, you don't 'need' a car (as another said on my FB page). Anyone know how easy at is to get a gun at a gun show or are familiar with  Gun Show Background Check Act of 2009 (H.R. 2324, S. 843)? Check it out. Should it be easier to get a gun than to access and receive decent metal health counseling? It should be really hard to get a gun, but it's not. The whole issue is overwhelming to me, but if we sit back and do nothing after the murdering of children in Connecticut, then nothing will change our minds and hearts.

[Tracy 2112]

You can't talk sense to gun people.  Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox. 

You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.

[jaye]

You can't talk sense to gun people.  Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox. 

You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.

I really want to believe this too - I think if responsible people want to own guns, they should support whatever it takes for that to not be threatened.   Not just scream 2nd Amendment and from my cold dead hands bullshit.   
Yes, there will always be bad people doing bad things, but let's not make it so easy for them!

Thanks for those links John

[YimYodd]

Tell it like it is ,JohnnYY!          

[exist10z]

You can't talk sense to gun people.  Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox. 

You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.

That's good to hear.  I suspect as you suggest, individuals are sometimes more sensible, but then unfortunately the issue of guns is co-mingled with other causes, to create a mindset that is resistant to hearing any views that stray from the overall orthodoxy. Indeed we all do need to have open minds, and minds willing to put aside 'our' sides conventional wisdom to judge issues objectively, based on facts and with good reason. 

It just gets to be overwhelmingly frustrating, trying to discuss an issue like guns, with people who's positions are based on emotions, fear, and propaganda.

[Fully]

The stance of "If teachers were armed, this wouldn't happen." concerns me. I don't want to carry a weapon and I don't want to work in a building with other armed teachers. We've had weapons brought to our school. One of the shootings that occurred in the 90's happened  thirty minutes away from us. One of my colleagues' wife was an intended victim who was saved only when a student walked in front of her not realizing that she was in danger. That girl died in my friend's wife's arms. However arming teachers is not the answer. Guns have no place around children. They accidentally discharge. A distraught student could take it from a teacher. It opens the door for many disastrous scenarios. I refuse to live my life in fear of what may happen. Going out in public, there are just as many opportunities for random violence. We as a nation must focus on mental illness in addition to restricting gun ownership. It shouldn't be easy to own semi automatic weapons. I support hunters, but if one needs an assault rifle to hunt, one must be rather bad at hunting.

[headhunter]

I am not shy about my thoughts.

Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.

I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms.  I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.

A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.

Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons?  No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want.  And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.

And we would all be beter off if they were.

[LeanneP]

Hand guns and assault weapons - normal folks have no legit reason to own one. Hunting rifles are fine. I absolutely agree with John's proposed idea (not his I realise, but he brought it up here) that gun ownership be treated EXACTLY the same as vehicle ownership/use.

At the risk of side-tracking this discussion, guns are not necessarily the only factor that needs addressing if we are looking at curtailing such incidents as we have endured this week (and at other places of over the years such as Virginia Tech and Columbine) and that is easy access to mental health services.

As a Canadian, it would not be at all hard for me to obtain a weapon.  Al Simmon's Gun Shop is on one of the poshest shopping streets in my city, a 10 minute walk from my home. I firmly believe the reason mass shootings - such as happens in the US with heart breaking regularity - don't happen as much in Canada is in large part because we have socialised medicine that ensures those who ask for help get it, pretty quickly (mental health issues related to violence generally are dealt with immediately), for free. This helps us ensure that more people get treated and appropriately tracked.

As civilised societies we really should have a better way of taking care of people.

[e_wind]

Hand guns and assault weapons - normal folks have no legit reason to own one. Hunting rifles are fine. I absolutely agree with John's proposed idea (not his I realise, but he brought it up here) that gun ownership be treated EXACTLY the same as vehicle ownership/use.

At the risk of side-tracking this discussion, guns are not necessarily the only factor that needs addressing if we are looking at curtailing such incidents as we have endured this week (and at other places of over the years such as Virginia Tech and Columbine) and that is easy access to mental health services.

As a Canadian, it would not be at all hard for me to obtain a weapon.  Al Simmon's Gun Shop is on one of the poshest shopping streets in my city, a 10 minute walk from my home. I firmly believe the reason mass shootings - such as happens in the US with heart breaking regularity - don't happen as much in Canada is in large part because we have socialised medicine that ensures those who ask for help get it, pretty quickly (mental health issues related to violence generally are dealt with immediately), for free. This helps us ensure that more people get treated and appropriately tracked.

As civilised societies we really should have a better way of taking care of people.

Yup

[Tracy 2112]

I firmly believe the reason mass shootings - such as happens in the US with heart breaking regularity - don't happen as much in Canada is in large part because we have socialised medicine that ensures those who ask for help get it, pretty quickly (mental health issues related to violence generally are dealt with immediately), for free. This helps us ensure that more people get treated and appropriately tracked.

As civilised societies we really should have a better way of taking care of people.

I still believe easy access to weapons should be our main concern. Both the Va. Tech shooter and the Aurora Theater shooter had histories of receiving psychiatric treatment, so, the issue of the abiltiy to receive psychiatric services is moot. Now, were they getting quality tx? Who knows. However, both shooters were able to buy firearms. Federal and state statutes in Virginia are worded differently, so when the Va. Tech shooter voluntarily committed himself to psychiatric tx, he did not forfeit his right to buy a weapon. I just think it's too easy to buy weapons and there are so many people with a lot of money advocating for less restrictions.

And, there are a lot of factors that bring someone to the point of killing others.

[exist10z]

You can hunt with a shotgun or a bolt action rifle, shotgun also works well for home defense, if you must have something smaller for home defense, a revolver would suffice.  This criteria, by which it's difficult to see an opening for dispute (among non-zealots), no semi-automatic rifles or hand-guns should be allowed, under any circumstances.  These semi-autos, both rifle and pistol, are purely for the purpose of assaulting and killing human beings: assault-rifle, it's right there in the name, and the same goes for pistols with magazines. 

The argument about 'sport' shooting?  Bullshit, find a new sport.  Your right to sport and your guns is infringing on other peoples right to life, sport loses.  That's how a civilized society works.  Sure, we all want maximum freedom, but once that freedom infringes on others freedom, that's where the freedom ends in a civilized society.  I don't even like hunting and don't see the sport or appeal of killing less intelligent animals with sophisticated weapons, but at least that's a point where reasonable disagreement is possible.  That 'reasonable' disagreement ends with weapons specifically designed to kill mass numbers of human beings.

Of course none of this makes any difference, half the people in this country can't be reasoned with, because they are devoid of reason.  They're more dangerous than the 'mentally ill', because they vote.

[GO4IT]

You are right on, John, along with the other posters.

It's time to get on top of this and reign in the nonsense.  Those who drag out the tired old arguments to prevent reasonable controls have the blood of children on their hands today and of the 10s of thousands killed senselessly every year.

And the mental health problem needs to be dealt with as well as some have pointed out, along with enforcement all around.  My son-in-law, who some of you met at the MPP get-together in Aug, narrowly escaped death preventing another slaughter here in MD in March of this year when a mentally ill person fired on him at almost point blank range; he eventually brought the guy down after a protracted shootout.  This guy was headed to an apartment complex to fire on bunch of unsuspecting people; who knows how many he might have killed by virtue of having a gun?

Now get this. The guy barely survived but has been back on the street since Sept, free to roam anywhere with an ankle bracelet that restricts nothing.  His trial is not until next April.  After shooting at three cops and almost killing them, and with clear intent to harm others, this guy is back on the street while he awaits trial. Are you kidding?

We need to get serious about making our country a safer place.  If we objectively look at the facts about risk where guns are concerned and compare it to other risks we control it is obvious that big changes are needed.

[Mr. White]

The stance of "If teachers were armed, this wouldn't happen." concerns me. I don't want to carry a weapon and I don't want to work in a building with other armed teachers. We've had weapons brought to our school. One of the shootings that occurred in the 90's happened  thirty minutes away from us. One of my colleagues' wife was an intended victim who was saved only when a student walked in front of her not realizing that she was in danger. That girl died in my friend's wife's arms. However arming teachers is not the answer. Guns have no place around children. They accidentally discharge. A distraught student could take it from a teacher. It opens the door for many disastrous scenarios. I refuse to live my life in fear of what may happen. Going out in public, there are just as many opportunities for random violence. We as a nation must focus on mental illness in addition to restricting gun ownership. It shouldn't be easy to own semi automatic weapons. I support hunters, but if one needs an assault rifle to hunt, one must be rather bad at hunting.

I agree with you on your feelings that something might happen where a child would get ahold of the gun, and very bad things would happen.

I am a teacher at an elementary school, and I didn't know anything about the school shooting until all the kids were gone for the day on Friday and I was checking my e-mail (there was a headline that mentioned the 27 killed).

I have been having a very hard time dealing with my thoughts and feelings this weekend, especially since my 8 year old grandson is spending the day and night with us (as per usual on a Sunday), and I will be driving him to his school in the small town of Vine Grove in the morning before I travel on to Louisville where my school is located. The school I work at now is in a "safer" part of town than the one I had previously taught at. My old school had a security officer because it was in a "bad" part of Louisville. "Security officer" was just his title. He was not a law enforcement officer or a "rent-a-cop" or anything like that. He carried no weapon. He only had the same Safe Crisis Management training that I had when I had the Emotional-Behavioral Disorders self-contained unit. We were taught how to safely restrain a student who was a danger to self or to others. A couple of years ago, he was trying to restrain a little 3rd grader who wiggled away from him and bit his arm in several places that resulted in scaring, so I can see how a student could get a gun away from a security officer of this type.

What I am suggesting (for school safety only - no idea how to protect the rest of the nation) is to hire real security officers or station real cops at every single school in America. They would have to be stationed at the entrances and not really rove around the building (due to the earlier point I made about a student getting the gun away from the officer). I know this would cost a lot of money, but who really cares (other than the same people who are trying to destroy the public school system in favor of private schools - mainly for their rich friends). This money should not be taken out of the general school funds. It should be a separately funded permanent security program.

(As they say on TV - Full Disclosure - I am a former member of the Armed Forces, and I have a Carry Concealed Deadly Weapons Permit, but schools, churches, hospitals, government buildings, and bars are not places that I can carry a concealed weapon.)

[MarkW]

I work in the UK where guns are extremely hard to get.  The only legal weapons are shotguns, and you require a license, proper storage, and a reason to have one (ie living on a farm / sports shooting).  The only armed police are at airports and government buildings.  Some criminals have guns, but it's not the norm.

I spend weekends is Spain.  All police are armed, and gun ownership is more widespread, but again restricted to sporting use; it is not legal to carry a weapon.

In 2011, the US had 9 gun deaths per 100,000 of population.  Spain had 0.63 per 100,000 and the UK had 0.25 per 100,000. That's a 36-fold difference in your chances of getting shot each year between the UK and the US.

[ItBeats4Jew]

You can't talk sense to gun people.  Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox. 

You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.

why does he need assault weapons (and multiple ones at that)?  to accomplish what exactly?  not trying to be snarky here, I'm really trying to understand this? 

[Tracy 2112]

You can't talk sense to gun people.  Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox. 

You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.

why does he need assault weapons (and multiple ones at that)?  to accomplish what exactly?  not trying to be snarky here, I'm really trying to understand this?

Pretty sure he doesn't "need" an assault weapon, that's why he is willing to have tougher screenings to get one. It's sport to him; he enjoys it. Having served in the military, I can say there is a rush shooting a 50mm or M-16 on automatic. I received expert marksmanship ribbon on the 9mm.

I would personally like to see assault weapons banned. I am sure there are other hobbies that would sufficiently replace it. However, like me, I am sure he doesn't want other people's irresponsible behavior to effect his rights as a safety oriented, law abiding citizen.

I do not think banning all guns is the answer.