Fun Talking about Jack White at a Party but not really that fun at all.

[ffghtrs]

So i had few friends over and i rambled a bit too much about jack white and his guitar playing.  Specifically saying that i admire his ability to play sloppy guitar in a precise manner.  Meaning that when he wants to he is sloppy for a certain sound.  When he wants to he is precise and perfect and he can write the hell out of a pop song.  But what happened was that i made a girl angry and her boyfriend came to her defense and an argument ensued.  Basically it was said that i was being too harsh on his artistic choices and i could not for the life of me get the point across that i appreciate this about him and i love his musical stylings. 


So as the conversation went on, i was called white trash and a scumbag and when i politely asked them to leave they wouldn't so the party moved to the deck where we enjoyed drinks and cigars.  Anywho the reason why i am writing this is i need to know what is the correct term for saying i love the guitarist's ability to play a wide range of stylings.  I think artistic styling works.  But maybe it was the alcohol talking on both sides of this miscommunication.   I don't know anyone have any thoughts?


And the moral of the story is they will not be invited over again.

[johnnYYac]

Music and politics. My two favorite things are conversational poison at parties with my local friends. Turns out half my childhood pals went right-wing nut-job conservative and they all hate MMJ. I'm not so sure it's the words you used, but the nature of the audience.

[Jaimoe]

All you had to say was Jack wears many hats and is extremely versatile. He's one of the few legitimate rock stars and guitar heroes of his genertion. Oh, and he's an emotional player rooted in punk and blues so if he's not perfect then it's intentional. Those idiots know nothing about guitar and the blues.

[capt. scotty]

Once you realized you were incorrectly getting ridiculed and they werent getting the picture, you shouldve just played along with them and started saying how The White Stripes suck, you saw that music documentary with him and Edge blew the doors off Jack with his technical precision, etc to piss them off even more! 

[Tracy 2112]

You can't be sloppy in a precise manner. Sloppy means lack of precision. Like saying > I admire the snow-filled, clear sky < that doesn't make sense.

Similar story, I almost got into a fight once during the Budweiser years b/c someone said Jimmy page was a sloppy guitar player. My retort was, "Unless you're Jeff Beck, you should just shut the fuck up!" It went downhill from there. 

Sloppy about anything isn't a compliment, IMO.

[BH]

I disagree Tracy.   You can't be precise in a sloppy manner but you CAN be sloppy in a precise manner.   If I wanted to put spaghetti sauce all over my kitchen but put it exactly where I wanted it (like maybe a painter would) then I would be sloppy in a precise manner.

[Jaimoe]

Take sloppy out of rock and blues and what's left is pretty darn boring.

[Tracy 2112]

I disagree Tracy.   You can't be precise in a sloppy manner but you CAN be sloppy in a precise manner.   If I wanted to put spaghetti sauce all over my kitchen but put it exactly where I wanted it (like maybe a painter would) then I would be sloppy in a precise manner.

First of all, why do you want to put spaghetti sauce all over your kitchen? I feel inclined to stop right there until I get to the root of that silliness. But in the meantime, if you are putting something exactly where you want it, then it isn't sloppy. What you have is a kitchen (or highway) that was precisely stained with spaghetti sauce.

[Tracy 2112]

Take sloppy out of rock and blues and what's left is pretty darn boring.

Heartfelt?
Improvisational?
Random?
Interpretive?
Elementary?
Eclectic?

but not sloppy; that's not a compliment

[BH]

I disagree Tracy.   You can't be precise in a sloppy manner but you CAN be sloppy in a precise manner.   If I wanted to put spaghetti sauce all over my kitchen but put it exactly where I wanted it (like maybe a painter would) then I would be sloppy in a precise manner.

First of all, why do you want to put spaghetti sauce all over your kitchen? I feel inclined to stop right there until I get to the root of that silliness. But in the meantime, if you are putting something exactly where you want it, then it isn't sloppy. What you have is a kitchen (or highway) that was precisely stained with spaghetti sauce.

Yes, precisely placed by artist, but percieved by the listener as sloppy.

[Tracy 2112]

I disagree Tracy.   You can't be precise in a sloppy manner but you CAN be sloppy in a precise manner.   If I wanted to put spaghetti sauce all over my kitchen but put it exactly where I wanted it (like maybe a painter would) then I would be sloppy in a precise manner.

First of all, why do you want to put spaghetti sauce all over your kitchen? I feel inclined to stop right there until I get to the root of that silliness. But in the meantime, if you are putting something exactly where you want it, then it isn't sloppy. What you have is a kitchen (or highway) that was precisely stained with spaghetti sauce.

Yes, precisely placed by artist, but percieved by the listener as sloppy.

[Jaimoe]

I generally agree with Tracy, to an extent. What I mean is, sometimes it gets sloppy, but that's ok. The Faces revelled in drunkeness, but they pulled it off on most nights. It gets really ugly with technical clean players (Rush at the massive 400,000 Stones-led SARS fundraiser festival in Toronto last decade kinda sucked, and they were the first to admit it), but I don't want the New York Dolls and Sex Pistols to sparkle. Hendrix unrehearsed ain't a good time. Check out his Isle of Wight 1970 for proof. Jimmy Page is messy sometimes (the solo on "Heartbreaker" is a good example), but with him it often came down to practice, and as we all known, he goes through loooong stretches of apathy towards his craft, case in point the entire 1980s.

I don't want to talk in circles, but I don't think Jack White is sloppy. His style is full of hammer-ons, bends and fast flourishes, so his solos might sound jumbled at times, but that's his intent.

[Ruckus]

I don't know if it's sloppily precise or precisely sloppy but the solo to Weep Themselves to Sleep is a Prego masterpiece.

[Tracy 2112]

Jesco White on Sloppy Eggs

[ManNamedTruth]

You know what's sloppy, this thread not being in Other Music. 

[johnnYYac]

You know what's sloppy, this thread not being in Other Music. 

What a great idea!

[e_wind]

I disagree Tracy.   You can't be precise in a sloppy manner but you CAN be sloppy in a precise manner.   If I wanted to put spaghetti sauce all over my kitchen but put it exactly where I wanted it (like maybe a painter would) then I would be sloppy in a precise manner.

First of all, why do you want to put spaghetti sauce all over your kitchen? I feel inclined to stop right there until I get to the root of that silliness. But in the meantime, if you are putting something exactly where you want it, then it isn't sloppy. What you have is a kitchen (or highway) that was precisely stained with spaghetti sauce.

Yes, precisely placed by artist, but percieved by the listener as sloppy.

hahaha


but seriously, I think BH nailed it. Artists can act in a certain way so that their art is "perceived" to be sloppy, though its not actually sloppy. Not as sloppy as people arguing over the definition of sloppy artistry.

the first example that comes to mind is Via Chicago

[ManNamedTruth]

You know what's sloppy, this thread not being in Other Music. 

What a great idea!

haha, well done Yac.

[rincon2]

Good Sloppy   Timing is right even if you miss the exact note.
The Who were even able to be sloppy and good the other way. Listen to Young Man Blues on Live at Leeds. They collectively miss some marks, and it kind of adds to the coolness of that version.

[ffghtrs]

I love that this thread was moved to other music, i didn't want to ramble about a bad experience at a party where i couldn't convey my ideas about Jack White's guitar playing to become an off topic rambling and then have it seem like it didn't belong in the right section.  Anywho, great discussion, I have to respond to the idea that you can not play guitar sloppy and precise at the same time.  I believe that you can be sloppy for aesthetic purposes and with that intent in mind you have the ability to be precise in what you attempt to achieve.  Big loud distorted guitars with hammer ons and pull offs is the way i play the guitar, not nearly as well as anyone we listen to but my god i love it.  but as i listen to white blood cells i realize that 75% of the original problem was the individuals i was arguing with and 25% was the irish whiskey inhibiting my ability to explain that i appreciate and love everything Jack White does.  Except Icky Thumb.  Actually i rather liked Icky Thumb but the majority of people i speak to about the Stripes these days claim it was a sub par farewell album.

I have to give lots of love to the person who mentioned Via Chicago. Continually my two favorite bands are Wilco and My Morning Jacket.  Let's keep this debate going with a question:  What is your favorite example of sloppy guitar playing and your favorite of precise playing?