my $.02 on Z

[EC]

it sounds more like you're talking about some skank whore asking for directions.  

That is very very funny.  Good work.

[ycartrob]

and you know, I'd love to have you all over for a 2 day RUSH-A-THON, but I believe all my Dungeons and Dragons pieces are buried somwhere in the attic and I haven't smoked pot in years! Perhaps in another life, but, in the meantime, I'll raise my goblet of coffee to RUSH fans eveywhere as I air-drum my way into total bliss, with Camera Eye turned up to 11! (yes, Friday night still rocks, 41 years into it and drug free!)  ;D ;D ;D

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

and you know, I'd love to have you all over for a 2 day RUSH-A-THON, but I believe all my Dungeons and Dragons pieces are buried somwhere in the attic and I haven't smoked pot in years! Perhaps in another life, but, in the meantime, I'll raise my goblet of coffee to RUSH fans eveywhere as I air-drum my way into total bliss, with Camera Eye turned up to 11! (yes, Friday night still rocks, 41 years into it and drug free!)  ;D ;D ;D

Witch Hunt is a better tune, IMHO... ;)

[ycartrob]

well, you're wrong Conway b/c the bells on Witch Hunt sound cheap to me. They could have used better bells, perhaps, some more expensive bells (although, the lyrics make it a rather curious song).  :-X

[Gripe]

Or are YOU the one who has the definitive say on what good music is? You're the one? Cool. I need you to come to my house and listen to all 22 of my RUSH cd's so I can know how "little" I understand about music and what I need to learn.

ycartrob,

I have nothing to do with this keyboard/cheap/good/bad conversation, but I'm wondering what was meant by the RUSH comment. It kind of sounds like you were suggesting that someone who listens to RUSH has an "understanding" of music. Did I read that correctly?  

By the way, I'm not picking at you, I'm honestly curious. I just want to make sure I understood your post.

Thanks,
Gripe.

[ycartrob]

No gripe, not saying being a RUSH fan means I understand music, quite the contrary. There are people who loathe Rush, people who hate them, people who do not consider their music on any level. And you know what? I love Rush. I really do. My point is, it's just music, and you can point out all the flaws and cracks and Geddy's voice and cheesey lyrics, etc... and it still makes no difference about how I  F E E L when I hear Rush. It's just music and everyone has different tastes. Danko was talking about a "cheap" sound on the new MMJ album like that's a bad thing b/c HE does not like it. Like HE has the final say on what is "good" or not. I don't know, critiquing music, calling it "curious" and what not is mental masturbation and only serves self and those who need someone else to tell them what they like and don't like. Hey, lets analyze the latest Radiohead CD, shall we? Or maybe lets just listen to it; I'll take the latter.

[sweatboard]

No gripe, not saying being a RUSH fan means I understand music, quite the contrary. There are people who loathe Rush, people who hate them, people who do not consider their music on any level. And you know what? I love Rush. I really do. My point is, it's just music, and you can point out all the flaws and cracks and Geddy's voice and cheesey lyrics, etc... and it still makes no difference about how I  F E E L when I hear Rush. It's just music and everyone has different tastes. Danko was talking about a "cheap" sound on the new MMJ album like that's a bad thing b/c HE does not like it. Like HE has the final say on what is "good" or not. I don't know, critiquing music, calling it "curious" and what not is mental masturbation and only serves self and those who need someone else to tell them what they like and don't like. Hey, lets analyze the latest Radiohead CD, shall we? Or maybe lets just listen to it; I'll take the latter.

"Talking About Music Is Like Dancing About Archetecture."

Music is so personal.  I like to think that the people that come to this forum have an unsaid understanding and bond through the songs.  I could really care less what someone thinks about how the keyboards sound because it's so much bigger than that.  Personally one of my favorite things about the new album is Bo's keyboard contributions.  But, my very favorite thing are the SONGS.  When you come across a songwritter and band leader as special as Jim James the music is just iceing on the cake.  Fortunatly I'm a fan of the iceing these days as well.  To me Rush is a whole shit ton of iceing and not much cake, and to much iceing makes me sick.  I love Tracy because I can totally understand that feeling he has when listening to Rush and that's all that really matters.  Plus, I think he is one intelligent and witty motherfucker.  I also think that Z is all about "Into The Woods", it will be the most talked about and hihgly debated song on the album.  The more I listen to that song the more I wonder if it's not the best thing on the record.  It's very exciting musical territory.  Not for the faint of heart or the casual listener but very rewarding.        

[aMillionDreams]

One thing that I think will be interesting, as the album hits the streets, is old fans are not going to know what to make of it at least for a while.  But the new fans that are drawn in by 'Z' or E-town will not know what to make of ISM, At Dawn, or Tennesse Fire.  They'll all be posting stuff about "How come it sounds like he's singing at the bottom of a well" or "this sound like it was recored in my basement, wtf"  Different strokes for different folks.

Just to quickly address Danko.  I think you're being a little too sensitive.  If you want to have a conversation you have to be prepared to hear different viewpoints.  

That being said,  I'm still not convinced about the guitar work, if I may.  Now you are suggesting that Jim's solo are not more complicated but ARE evidence of more talent.  Now I'm really confused.  I mean, Jim has come into his own as a lead guitarist lately but why would he hire a lead guitarist who couldn't play lead guiatr as well as he could?  You could be right but I can't tell who guitar is who and I don't know how you are.  Perhaps we could have a friendly discussion about it...

[SMc55]

Woah. Danko was just offering his 2 cents. It was the 2 cents he was holding at the time. It might be a different 2 cents he's holding next week. I'd hate this to be a place where people were scared to say what they're thinking in case they don't use the right words, are not clear enough or whatever. Sure ask for clarification but no need to bite.

It's funny to me that there's another thread started recently where people can post their poetry. It's cool for people to use different words to express different feelings. I'm not sure what cheap means either in this context but it's food for thought. I'll have it in mind next time I listen and see if it makes any sense to me.

(Just my 2 pence  ;))

[antoniostrohs]

I think people that post criticisms about the band and their music ought to expect a few negative comments back.Everybody has a right to disagree as long as it doesn't get too personal.

[ycartrob]

Not too personal from me (hopefully); I understand it's just my opinion and I am cynical. I am just having fun. I couldn't be more excited about the new album and the Nashville show. It's a little like Christmas.

[EC]

It's a little like Christmas.

It's a lot like Christmas.  I love/hate the waiting part.  But it's nice to look forward to something when you've waited for a long time.  :)

[McGuire]

Danko, you make some interesting comments. People should understand that whatever someone says, is their opinion and not the all-knowing force of the universe. Whatever he thinks sounds cheap or unconvincing could be heavenly and awesome in another's mind. Like mine ;)

I've been listening to the album for a little while now and after the first and second listen I sort of felt the same as Danko. I really didn't know what to think at first but I did know I just couldn't stop listening to it. Now, after 10 listens or something I'm gonna have to declare this album a masterpiece. Damn did this baby grow on me. It's really an album that you shouldn't judge after one or two listens. Hang in there and you will be rewarded. I'll try to write a detailed review later.

PS: RealDeal, nobody really takes you seriously, do they? ;D I think I know why.

[TheLink]

yea, this is tired.  it was obviously cheap to record in a silo last time.  seems obvious to me the band wanted these sounds to sound the way they do and people either like em or don't.  i wouldn't go over analyzing it though.  i like a more lo-fi sound, but this album really grew on me right away.  why?  i can't say.  just like it.  peace.

[Gripe]

ycartrob,

This really is none of my business, but I find the strength of peoples' arguments kind of interesting.

There are people who loathe Rush, people who hate them, people who do not consider their music on any level.

It's just music and everyone has different tastes.

Both of these statements sound fine to me, but then you contradict yourself by saying this:

Danko was talking about a "cheap" sound on the new MMJ album like that's a bad thing b/c HE does not like it.

By saying this you've denied Danko the right to his "different tastes". If he talks about a "cheap" sound like it's a bad thing, it is a bad thing to him.  

Like HE has the final say on what is "good" or not.

He certainly does not, which is why he repeatedly pointed out that it was his merely his two cents he was offering.  

I don't know, critiquing music, calling it "curious" and what not is mental masturbation and only serves self and those who need someone else to tell them what they like and don't like. Hey, lets analyze the latest Radiohead CD, shall we? Or maybe lets just listen to it; I'll take the latter.

We analyze everything, though - good songs, bad songs, everything. Consciously or not, listening to music involves constant critiquing; we wouldn't have favourites without our ability to make decisions based on our own particular tastes. And what's so bad about something being "curious"? I think you may have brought the negative connotation along with you.

Give me a break man. It's just music, don't get all uppitty about your opinion, as if you have the last word on what is good. I swear, the older I get, the less I can tolerate somoene who is going to tell me what sounds good and what doesn't.

This part was obviously unnecessary.

Anyway, I'm going to go back to not giving a shit what anyone on Earth thinks about my opinion of any music I like or dislike. They're free to think and say whatever they'd like (as long as their arguments are sound...).  

[ycartrob]

gee wiz Gripe, for someone who says this isn't your business, you sure made it your business, so right off the bat, you contradicted yourself(as well as in some of your points(man, this is some really stupid shit, but I am going to go with it  ;)). I really never had an argument, just wanted clarity on the word "cheap" and to question Danko's use of language; there's no argument there. Your argument (and yes, you argued some of my points) reeks of  relativism (and funny how you picked apart my points and not Danko's). So, for the sake of relativism, I never posted anthing and you can't actually prove anything. In fact, I don't exist, neither do you. Have fun. :o

[Gripe]

gee wiz Gripe, for someone who says this isn't your business, you sure made it your business, so right off the bat, you contradicted yourself(as well as in some of your points

Although I was being intentionally ironic, I did contradict myself there. Guilty as charged (except for my points - they're fine).

(and funny how you picked apart my points and not Danko's)

Danko's points didn't require picking apart - it sounded to me like he was just giving his opinion of some sounds on the album. In my opinion he could have found a better way to say "you guys crack me up sometimes", but you in particular were riding him pretty hard and suggesting he was telling you how to think about music, which he wasn't doing at all, so I can see why his back was up.

Anyway, I'm not looking to get your back up (I'd tell you what I think about post-1978 RUSH if I wanted to do that), and I don't know enough about relativism to offer any kind of reply to it, so I'm going to go back to listening to my 1-minute samples of Gideon and Into The Woods (the only bits of Z I've heard so far). When I listen I think 'it' moves.

[ycartrob]

you know gripe, you really need to go back and re-read the thread. I didn't start into Danko until he made the following comments: "I should have known better to speak my mind on this board"(and I guess that infers we are closed minded here), "you people crack me up", "I can see a lotta diehards running to the hills with their hands over their ears (but none will post here about it, not for long, anyway)...while many will buy into their growing myth and hop on the rising tide and claim it to be a masterpiece", "some of it is easily their worst material I've heard on record". You go to a bands web site and say shit like that and you expect everyone to just say, "well golly gee, that's just his opinion". Fuck that shit man. The whole time I was trying to figure out what the fuck he meant by cheap (and again, some of the best, most famous and moving music ever recorded sounds "cheap" (if that's what he means by cheap)), however, when he goes into comments like he made, it's time for me to have some fun and maybe enlighten him to how he is coming across, which is vague(at best)and pompous.

A little story : You ever heard Bob Dylan's LIKE A ROLLING STONE? You want to talk about cheap? You want to talk about Al Kooper on the organ, who was put on the organ at the last second b/c Mike Bloomfield was the session guitar player, a much better guitar player than Kooper, and Kooper had never played the organ and Tom Wilson told Dylan that Kooper sucked and they weren't going to use him, and Dylan said to keep Kooper on the organ b/c he liked the way it sounded, intentionally not "perfect".

Or just listen to Neil Young's TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT (some say the greatest rock record ever) and tell me that ain't some of the "cheapest" shit you ever heard, and one of the most moving albums I have ever heard. They didn't even tune up before recordings man, they just played.

And of course, the Replacements LET IT BE that I mentioned in my 2nd post. Cheap!

My point? Perhaps the word "cheap" should not be used in a negative vain (as Danko used it). But, once he made the comments he made, I went past the point of trying to educate him (or try to figure out what he was saying) and let him know that I could be a dick, too.

Thanks for all your love and support folks, and I swear to God I am not losing my mind, just encouraging people to think. Critique that.  :D

[EC]

Listen dudes.  Just sit tight, and I will deliver the CHEAPEST album ever made. Ever.

Just a couple of months.

And then y'all can crack up and talk about the cheapness of it.  No jokes.

:)

[Gripe]

I could swear I just read the word "enlighten" in your post. Nah, I couldn't have. That implies the taking of some sort of position of authority and then passing on some knowledge to the less informed. Since you accuse Danko of doing such a thing  -  something he didn't do in any way - it would be wrong of you to do it in return, so I obviously misread your post.

You listed "cheap"-sounding albums/songs that you happen to like. I have no idea why. Who are you trying to convince? I personally love Tonight's The Night (and mabye Danko does too; who knows?) and I like the "cheapness" of Like A Rolling Stone (although I'm fucking tired of that song), but that doesn't change the fact that Danko doesn't like the sound of the keys on Z. And why should he? Maybe he likes warmer sounds. What's wrong with that? Do you see that by telling him/us that you like certain "cheap" sounds you're doing nothing more than displacing his opinion with your own?  If anyone is trying to tell others how to feel about music, you are that person.

He did not say that those of us who like "cheap" sounds are wrong or stupid or misinformed or odorous; he merely offered his opinion of how he felt about the audio content of an album. He even went in to specifics about the keys and the guitar, so he wasn't as vague as you're making out, either.

Ah, fuck it. I just realized how lame this conversation is. Whatever you post next is the last word.