I think they should have left "Off the Record"

[my_evening_jacket]

off the record.

[JacketGal]

I beg to differ here. I think it fuses, reggae, punk and rock and roll in a way I've not heard before.  [smiley=rock.gif]

[realdeal]

if i hear that song one more time...........that beginning riff is really starting to iritate my ears.

[dragonboy]

I hear your voice & respect you opinion but strongly disagree.

I love Off the Record & like the bands new direction.

Have you heard the version from the XFM session? Maybe you might like that better?
http://www.xfm.co.uk/article.asp?id=131850

[Specialist]

i loved it on June 12th when i heard it for the first time, and as i sit here on Friday October 21st, i still love the hell out of that song.

[EC]

Weird.

I can't listen to Z unless I have enough time to listen to it start to finish.  Every song all the way through.

:)

[whothrewthecake]

i greatly enjoy this song and feel like i can definitely get CRUNK to it with that beat.  :o

[my_evening_jacket]

I was just messing around.  Jim James and Co have produced another great record.  Z is the one that's real.

[loper]

I'm afraid I'm not! :-[

The critics in general seem to be raving about the first half of Z for its 'tightness' and succinctness, implying that the 2nd half is unfocused, unoriginal and directionless.

Well I guess I'll never make it as a critic, as, with the honourable exception of It Beats 4 U and, to a lesser extent Gideon, the last 3 tracks are IMHO light years better than the fashion conscious, overproduced and shallow stuff that preceeds them.

And, to further upset hardcore followers, It Beats 4 U is so synthetically produced on Z that it loses the emotional edge that would have survived Jim's old production techniques. The live version on Bonneroo 2004 is the standard by which this track should be judged and IMHO makes the Z version a major disappointment.

Dondante is one of the best things the guys have ever done. It is a monumental achievement, but I'm afraid (for me) Z is the album that has compromised Jim's musical integrity for the sake of commercial recognition. I don't blame Jim so much as the record company and John Leckie.

Mind you, I still think Z is up there in 4th place in the league table of MMJ full length albums. [smiley=wink2.gif]

[sweatboard]

The band picked thier label and thier producer so If you don't like the sound of the new record I don't think you can pin that on anyone but the band.  Jim has mentioned that he wants each album to be different from the last and Z is quite a bit different.  I think the production on "It Beats For You" is exceptional for the simple fact that it really ties the song into the album.  I do however agree that the arrangement cuts down on the emotional edge of the song, I would like to hear "It Beats For You" with just the acoustic (not on the album, but a b-side or something).      

[Half]

i hear Z in three main parts
1.
wordless chorus
it beats 4 u
gideon

2.
wonderful man
off the record
into the woods

3.
the rest

in this context i think Off the Record meshes well, but when its singled out, i think it lacks any kind of emotion thats the bands trademark.  its not a bad song by any means- just not as good as the majority of the catalog

[DD]

thats one of the most brilliantly written songs on the album.  

[EC]

I don't hear one shallow moment on that record, and I feel like the songs are tremendously emotional.  I also don't know what you mean about synthetic production, loper.  I'm not trying to be all "MMJ can do no wrong", but I really don't know what you mean by that...  Feel like explaining?

[Jaimoe]

I'm currently writing a review of MMJ's recent Toronto show. One thing I mention in the review is that ' Z ' will either galvanize or polarize MMJ fans. This " Off The Record " thread seems to reinforce that thought.

At least half the songs on ' Z ' are a dramatic departure from their earlier sound. Some people will not like the clean production and musical experimentation of " Wordless Chorus " and " Off The Record ". I don't care for either song. I find them over-produced, however " Off The Record " is great live, thanks mainly to Jim James' ripping guitar solo - something the studio version desperately needed.

The more I listen to it, the more I like ' Z ', but the standout songs remain the ones that sound like they were produced by Jim James: " Dondante ", " Gideon ", " Lay Low ", " What A Wonderful Man ".  

[loper]

EC,

by 'synthetic' I mean that each track was put together from previously recorded cameos.

For instance, in the vodeo trailer for Z, we see Carl playing  some guitar lines in isolation, with John Leckie recording them for 'sampling'later. The same with Jim recording vocals using different mikes. The use of computerised beats instead of 'real' instruments. I could go on!

 To justify John Leckie's involvement he had to stamp his style on the album. The trouble is, producers today, thanks to modern technology, effectively create the finished product. The musicians are just part of the crew, called to give their input as and when it's needed.

What had made MMJ unique prior to Z was that their musical integrity was there for all to hear, the emotion in Jim's songwriting was transferred onto disc without compromise. It Still Moves was recorded like a live album and the playing is full of emotional verve. :)    

[Half]

EC,

by 'synthetic' I mean that each track was put together from previously recorded cameos.

For instance, in the vodeo trailer for Z, we see Carl playing  some guitar lines in isolation, with John Leckie recording them for 'sampling'later. The same with Jim recording vocals using different mikes. The use of computerised beats instead of 'real' instruments. I could go on!

To justify John Leckie's involvement he had to stamp his style on the album. The trouble is, producers today, thanks to modern technology, effectively create the finished product. The musicians are just part of the crew, called to give their input as and when it's needed.

What had made MMJ unique prior to Z was that their musical integrity was there for all to hear, the emotion in Jim's songwriting was transferred onto disc without compromise. It Still Moves was recorded like a live album and the playing is full of emotional verve. :)    

i totally agree with all of this.  its not that i don't like Z or the "new direction," but i can't help but wonder if the album would've been better if it was recorded in the same raw style as It Still Moves.  hearing this album live from beginning to end (philly 10/14) was a real blessing because it fuckin rocked.  

[EC]

Let me first say that I have zero problems with various opinions about the new album, etc.  I myself love it, which is no surprise to just about anybody in the world who knows that I exist.  I just want to respond to a couple of things:

by 'synthetic' I mean that each track was put together from previously recorded cameos.

I thought that the bulk of the layers were done, as they always have been, kind of live-ish - ie with everybody playing together.  Bits and pieces were recorded separately, but that's always been the case.  (ie the reason we have three or four Jims singing at the same time)
 

For instance, in the vodeo trailer for Z, we see Carl playing  some guitar lines in isolation, with John Leckie recording them for 'sampling'later. The same with Jim recording vocals using different mikes. The use of computerised beats instead of 'real' instruments. I could go on!

Jim recording vocals using different mics isn't synthetic.  You have to try different mics in order to get the best sound.  Computerized beatz is a choice.  They were choosing to incorporate that into the music.  I don't think that was John Leckie.
 

To justify John Leckie's involvement he had to stamp his style on the album.

What's John Leckie's "style"?  Everybody keeps talking about a couple of bands that he's produced for, but nobody's looking at all the other albums he's made.  He's made some incredible records.

The trouble is, producers today, thanks to modern technology, effectively create the finished product. The musicians are just part of the crew, called to give their input as and when it's needed.

Not true.  Also, what is thanks to modern technology?  Computers, you mean?  I don't understand what you mean there.  John and Jim share the producing credit.  It's been pretty well documented that Jim is stubborn about his music stuff.  I don't think we'll ever see the day where he just doesn't care and lets somebody else have full directorship.
  

What had made MMJ unique prior to Z was that their musical integrity was there for all to hear, the emotion in Jim's songwriting was transferred onto disc without compromise. It Still Moves was recorded like a live album and the playing is full of emotional verve.

Well, I guess we're going to disagree here.  I think it's a pretty emotional album, perhaps even moreso than ISM.  

Nice to debate witcha.        :)

[tomEisenbraun]

haha, yeah. it's a little thing called overdubs. We're obviously not listening to just one track of everybody, but getting a very thick and full sound. I mean, the guitar Carl is using in that clip is a baritone guitar to thicken up the sound, if i remember correctly.

And if i remember my conversations correctly (straight from the horses mouth, mind you) i think they tried to capture the songs in live takes first. I remember something, it might even be on that video, about them saying how nice it was to be able to all be in one room where they could see eachother and record together like that.

So don't knock em for "sampling." If you wanna kick down a band for that, just slice down Metallica for St. Anger.

[tdan]

hearing this album live from beginning to end (philly 10/14) was a real blessing because it fuckin rocked.  

I've still been watching the trader's sites for this one. Does anyone even know if it was indeed taped?

[DD]

thats funny.  the production is what i love about this album over it still moves.  i LOVE it still moves but i felt like it sounded like, well, it was recorded out at the farm on regular equipment.  it just sounded like another locally created album.  i thought that was wierd for a major label debut.  sure, on a small label i can see just using your own equipment and stuff....but fucks sake, if ive got the big $ behind me i want a producer and the best studio i can find.