At Dawn

[Bigsky]

Honest Man does not rock.  At all.  Unless your definition of rock is a tuneless dirge that overstays its welcome by about 5 minutes.  Perhaps a two minute blast would work but not all seven minutes.  And coming after the lovely Xmas Curtain (one of my fave MMJ songs) it drags the album down when it's absolutely flying.  It just doesn't belong there.

Do you like it out side of At Dawn?

No but it sounds worse in that context.

I still don't understand why you don't like it or think it doesn't belong on AD, but I'll repect your thoughts. I know the album wouldn't be the same without it. I wonder why Jim James thought it belonged on AD.  

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

It just doesn't belong there

No offense, but if Jim put it there, it indeed belongs there.  AD presents the band in both guises, of the rawk and of the heartfelt.  
Nobody would say Jackson Pollock's swirls were turning the wrong way-this is art, and if the artist puts a rock track in the middle of the record, so be it.

This also reminds me of the threads about remixing TTF.   It is what it is.

[cmccubbin25]

Yeah but Honest Man is shit isn't it?  The rest is wonderful.  Phone Went West especially.  

not at all... >:(

[capt. scotty]

You mean Honest Man is the shit? For a second I thought you were saying it sucks...

I agree with you.  Honest man not only is awesome, but it is awesome, too.

Ill be the 4th...or 5th to say the Honest Man def dont suck..After my first few listens, it def stood out to me as one of my favorite tracks alongside Way He Sings and Phone Went West

I wouldnt say a single song on the album is even bad let alone sucks

Id probably jizz my pants if they play one at the Chicago Theatre in October, so that explains my thoughts on Honest Man

[capt. scotty]

Honest Man does not rock.  At all.  Unless your definition of rock is a tuneless dirge that overstays its welcome by about 5 minutes.  Perhaps a two minute blast would work but not all seven minutes.  And coming after the lovely Xmas Curtain (one of my fave MMJ songs) it drags the album down when it's absolutely flying.  It just doesn't belong there.

Its the song that precedes Xmas, it doesnt follow it....

So maybe this debate is all for not because goat boy actually thinks Just Because I Do is shit :o

[ycartrob]

Conaway is right, Honest Man belongs there right between Bermuda Hwy and X-Mas Curtain. If it didn't belong there, it wouldn't be there, and without it, there's no At Dawn. That's the reality.

Hold your breath for the greatest hits album, it will be here soon.  ;)

[laylow82]

How can anyone dislike Honest man.  It has some of the dirtist blues i've heard in a long time .  It would put a smile to some of the old blues greats like muddy waters and howlin wolf.  And the lyrics are so meaningful that i can def relate to

"Try to walk this earth an honest man,
But evil waves at me it's ugly hand.
The radar watches me from above, shouting down:
"I hope you make it on this earth."

It dont get better than that

[laylow82]

Also At Dawn is one of my fav albums ever.  It changed me in a significant way.  Songs like hopefully, i need it the most, phone went west and strangulation put tears in my eyes.  

[TGMC421]

Also At Dawn is one of my fav albums ever.  It changed me in a significant way.  Songs like hopefully, i need it the most, phone went west and strangulation put tears in my eyes.  

Ditto, man.

Ah...'Hopefully'   :'(

[The DARK]

Honest Man is an amazing song. The screams are excellent.

My only problem with it is that they could have written more guitar parts to justify the 7 minute length.

[ycartrob]

People being critical of obviously talented people reminds me of those old white farts who announce basketball on TV; those old guys, who can't even touch the net, criticzing the way Lebron James plays basketball, when Lebron's worst mistakes look like masterpieces compared to what those guys could do on an NBA court. Just sit back in awe, and marvel at his mistakes, b/c at his worst, he is better than you at your best.

So my advice is go write the words and music to Heartbreakin Man, The Bear, Nashville to Kentucky, Old Sept. Blues, It's About Twilight Now, Evelyn Is Not Real, War Begun, Picture of You, I Will Be There When You Die, The Dark, By My Car, I Think I'm Going to Hell, At Dawn, Low Down, The Way That He Sings, Death Is the Easy Way, Hopefully, Bermuda Highway, Xmas Curtain, If It Smashes Down,
I Needed It Most, Strangulation, and then (and only then) tell me how Honest Man is "shit".

In the meantime, realize that Jim James' "shit" is better than your best.

[sweatboard]

This is CRAZY TALK.  AT DAWN is my favorite record EVER, and one of the HIGHLIGHTS is HONEST MAN.  When Jim belts out those screams......COME ON PEOPLE!!!!!  On Vinyl it ends side two, fucking perfect.  Shit, I LOVE Honest Man, for real.  

[sweatboard]

Ha, nice post Tracy.  We were like typing at the same time and shit.


Let's make out?

[ycartrob]

Ha, nice post Tracy.  We were like typing at the same time and shit.


Let's make out?

one step ahead of you...

[Bigsky]

Goat Boy look what you started...why don't you explain yourself... >:(

[ycartrob]

last time I say this:  going to a band's web site and calling one of their songs "shit" is uncool. Period. Be you old, young, clueless, with it, without it, scattered, covered, smothered, etc... it is absolutely unnecessary and it's uncool.

It is, and will always be, an uncool thing to do (and by uncool I mean it's not a cool thing to do). Call me every name in the book, but that will always be an uncool thing to do.

that's it. not cool.

[Goat Boy]

why don't you explain yourself... >:(

Gimmie a chance!  Ok it's repetitive and derivative. Melodically its very weak by their standards and I understand that its casual abrasiveness means it was perhaps included for sequencing reasons but I really don't think it was necessary. It sounds like a parody that it perhaps was intended to be but I don't feel it rises above this not especially lofty goal. It doesn't transcend its influences you know?  As for the issue of it belonging there, well, personally I don't think it does.  Not all artists are the best judge of their own work you know?  Dylan and Prince being two obvious examples.  That's why Blind Willie McTell was left off Infidels.  Or Series Of Dreams from Oh Mercy etc.  Jim James might think it's a good song I dunno.  He might think it's integral to the album.  I don't and I think it interrupts the flow.  Who's right?  Me or Jim?  Tick, tock, tick, tock.  Neither, of course.  We are both right.  So in my world it doesn't belong there.  

Goat Boy look what you started...

And all by saying ONE MMJ song is 'shit'!   ::) Don't you think it's sad that something so small can wind certain people up round here?  

[Goat Boy]

People being critical of obviously talented people reminds me of those old white farts who announce basketball on TV; those old guys, who can't even touch the net, criticzing the way Lebron James plays basketball, when Lebron's worst mistakes look like masterpieces compared to what those guys could do on an NBA court. Just sit back in awe, and marvel at his mistakes, b/c at his worst, he is better than you at your best.

So my advice is go write the words and music to Heartbreakin Man, The Bear, Nashville to Kentucky, Old Sept. Blues, It's About Twilight Now, Evelyn Is Not Real, War Begun, Picture of You, I Will Be There When You Die, The Dark, By My Car, I Think I'm Going to Hell, At Dawn, Low Down, The Way That He Sings, Death Is the Easy Way, Hopefully, Bermuda Highway, Xmas Curtain, If It Smashes Down,
I Needed It Most, Strangulation, and then (and only then) tell me how Honest Man is "shit".

Here.  We.  Go.  Again.  So in your world no art or culture can be criticised or critiqued unless you paint, write, sing etc as well as the person or persons you are critiquing?  Until I write songs as good as blah blah blah which is completely unmeasurable of course as it's purely subjective then I shouldn't have the temerity to say that in my own personal opinion a little 'ol song is a bit shit, especially compared to what they usually do?  Next time I go to the cinema I won't comment AT ALL because, well, I've never actually made or directed a movie so you know?  That book I read last week I have no opinion on it at all.  Why should I?  After all I've never written a book let alone published one so I can't criticise or pass comment on it.  I mean you refer 'obviously talented people' like this is a measurable quality.  It is not.  There is no such thing in art.  It ain't sport.  It's MUSIC, so you cannot say that he is 'obviously' talented as it is, of course, purely subjective.  Some people don't think Jim James is talented at all.  Who's right?  Neither obviously.

I mean why do you take these things so personal?  Are you really Jim James Mum or something?  I said one MMJ song is shit and you immediately jump in to protect the helpless band from this stinging criticism.  Everything is up for debate, nothing is holy.  It's just a band and it's just a song.  But hey, at least this weeds out the men from the boys.  The people who can actually say 'personally I rather like it' as opposed to the sensitive types like yourself who cannot stand to see something they love slagged off and then come up with some silly argument to back it up.  How insecure.  Have you never left a cinema and just said 'gee, that was shit'?  I'm sure you have however by your logic you are not entitled to do so because, I'm guessing, you haven't actually directed a film so you're like one of 'those people' (warning: generalisation!)

Finally it is not just the bands website is it? This section - the forum - belongs to the fans.  Me, you and that guy in the corner with the funny hair.  So I'm free to say whatever I want about any song be it positive or negative.  Perhaps it's the fact that I called it 'shit' without expanding why that got your back up?   Well I've done that in reply to Big Evil now so you can read why I don't rate it.  However people round here who praise something don't need to usually expand on why they think it's good do they?  Often all you get here is 'it's awesome', 'amazing song' etc.  This level if critique is fine and dandy as long as it's positive seemingly.  However when it's negative - labeling a song 'shit' - you instantly jump in to protect poor MMJ.  What this boils down to is that you don't appear to like anybody saying negative things about this band on this forum do you?  You are trying to impose your beliefs on this place and the posting habits of others.  It actually pisses you off.  Weird.  You've harped on to me about respecting peoples opinions and all that jazz yet I label a song 'shit' and you post that shite suggesting that I'm a sad cunt, similar to those old white guys in basketball or whatever for merely giving an opinion that doesn't go along with yours.  Real clever.  Positive opinions are welcomed, negative ones are to be derided and questioned.  Well done.  

In the meantime, realize that Jim James' "shit" is better than your best.

Again, you take it so personally.  But perhaps I'm better at painting? Or making love?  Or playing computer games?  Or I'm smarter at Maths and History?  Perhaps I can put more smarties in my mouth?  And so on....

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

Of course you are free to say anything negative about the band, the music, their peanut butter pudding habits  ;D, etc...I don't think that's the point here.  

It's that you picked a song that some folks like, and they responded.  Tongue in cheek, firmly planted.   I personally don't think it's cool to say a song is "shit"-but I'm guessing you're of the position that the somber acoustic MMJ is your style and your bread and butter.  That's fine.  But, be prepared to debate your position if you think a loud/rock song is "shit", when "honest man" is clearly NOT "shit".  Hell, even "Lead me Father" on the AD demo disc, while not my personal favorite, isn't "shit".  

There's this magic "next track" button on your CD player.  Use it!  Or even better, program your CD player to automatically skip it.  If you're lstening to it on vinyl, move the arm over and skip the track...make a mix CD, something, anything.  

You probably know that this band resonates pretty loudly with its fans, and we're all pretty rabid and Davidian Ranch-like in our fervor-you included.  

Just my two cents.  :)

[ycartrob]

  What this boils down to is that you don't appear to like anybody saying negative things about this band on this forum do you?

Lord all mighty I think he's getting it! It has taken him a while! But I really think he is starting to get it!