All this talk of "getting it" and "not

[ycartrob]

[bluntmaster]

This thread is starting to give me a headache.  "Be nice or else" means be nice or else!   :-/

this mod releases so much n00bness I can barely stand it in this thread anymore.  blah, I want to barf

[Goat Boy]

goatboy, it's obvious I bother you,

YOU don't bother me. But your general elitist attitude on this website is not something I go along with.   Again...

I do not retract my statement that I don't understand how a real MMJ fan doesn't "get" EU; and that's not a jab at anyone, just a statement, I'd challenge you not to read anything into that).

Challenge me?  How can you post a statement like that and NOT expect somebody to challenge you on it?

Look, Tracy you don't need to 'get it'.  It's not about getting the album.  I get the album.  I understand what they are trying to do and I recognise the influences.  Its like people saying how they don't understand how some people don't 'get' Highly Suspicious.  I get it.  I get that it's a sub Prince/Cameo homage complete with coquettish laughs that deliberately mimic the Purple one.  I know exactly where it's coming from and what they are trying to do.  I just don't think it's that good.  No biggie.  Live it will sound better but on record it doesn't work for me.  And please stop using the phrase 'real fan'. If you want to sound like an elitist MMJ snob then carry on using that terminology.  It offends people who would consider themselves 'real fans'.  Just think how it looks to an outsider?  A poster on a MMJ messageboard questioning whether other people on the same board are 'real' fans!   It's fanboyism taken to its logical conclusion.  I've even noticed that some new posters who are critiquing certain elements of the album are being very sensitive about it, going on and on that it is just their opinion etc.  It shouldn't be like that.

I am sorry if I have made you uncomfortable, but you come here to stir up shit, and you do, and then act all innocent when people reply

Don't be daft man. My irritable bowel syndrome makes me feel uncomfortable. And how! The only reason I seem to stir up shit is because I have labeled things poor or shit cos I simply don't rate them. Witness the recent Honest Man thread where I said that the album was 'wonderful' but that song was 'shit'. Labeling one song shit was the crime. I explained myself why I think it's crap but still some people couldn't accept this. Might I suggest that by merely providing any negative criticism the poster is going to be perceived as 'stirring shit up' by certain members?  It's the nature of the board I'm afraid that posts like mine will be interpreted as stirring shit up cos it goes against the grain here.  This is not intentional.  

It's obvious you like the confrontation, and for the most part, you're good at it. I also read where you blasted someone for having musical snobbery when you proclaimed yourself earlier to be a musical snob. So be it, it is all meaningless, pretty much. Plus, you just go 'round and 'round and 'round and 'round and 'round..... zzzzzzzzz And, it sort of flatters me you respond to my posts in such detail

Ok I admit it. That 'drifter' with the beard accompanied by the pungent whiff of stale dog piss you caught rooting through your garbage the other day was me. I Am Your Stalker. Cheers for the backhanded compliment. The difference is I didn't pretend I wasn't a snob to a degree. I never denied it. I blasted the poster because they were attacking me for being a snob despite posting some incredibly snobbish shite about not liking it when a band becomes popular and all kinds of undesirables start liking said band. I was attacking their hypocrisy and the contradiction inherent in his statement.  It may seem that I attack you or single you out for this shit but personally I feel you are the most vocal regarding this matter and probably the most influential on certain other posters who tend to fall into line behind you.

just for you guys who feel you have to be critical of music :

I don't feel that I have to be critical. I'm just wired that way. However I don't see the point of merely parroting other peoples stock replies and responses (EU RAWKS, it's awesome etc). You have to bring something new to the table. If I praise something I praise it and if I slag something off I will always try and expand on why if given the chance. I think I've been consistent in that respect. I said Honest Man was shit and I explained why I think that. Briefly.

I don't take this personally. It's a messageboard but might I suggest that you don't take criticism of the band so personally yourself?  It does you, or others, no favours.  Dragon Boys post on the silly and defensive 'EU Rocks: roll call' thread says it all really.  I'm not the only one who thinks this.  Perhaps I'm just the most vocal.  I appreciate this bit though...

and I am backing off from "implying" things around here and returning to good old fun.

And for the record just so this is clear I LIKE Evil Urges quite a bit.  However I feel that a handful of songs aren't up to scratch and a focus on production, sounds and rhythms has perhaps weakened two of the bands main strengths - the songwriting and The Voice of Jim James.  That is all.  I will still be there with bells and whistles on hoping they RAWK my puny little mind in Amsterdam.  I cannot wait.  Mind how you go.....

[Goat Boy]

Goatboy,

I'm still waiting for an explanation of this quote from you:

"However I dig the title track - MMJ meets Curtis..."

It was a reference to Curtis Mayfield and his debut solo album Curtis.  Somebody else explained it that's why I didn't respond.  Apologies.

There are certain bands that I have much disdain for, but I would NEVER join their message board and start insulting their fans and their work product.

Do you know what disdain actually means?  These people who post their negative comments DO NOT have disdain for the band at all.  They like the band and are fans.  They do not have contempt for MMJ.  Do you really think that? I know various posters have expressed their feelings and criticisms in clumsy ways, this is true.  Sometimes I wonder if these people ever went to school when I see the grammar and spelling on display.  The point is however that although this criticism is often expressed gauchely it is no less clumsy imo then the majority of posts on here - be they positive or negative and it doesn't deserve to be crapped on continually.  Even posts that criticise certain elements of Evil Urges in a balanced and well-written way have been targets for certain people who see this criticism as unnecessary and not what this board is about.  At the same time people are of course free to post fucking shite like 'cobra makes me feel sexy in the shower' or numerous 'MMJ rawks, EU rawks etc' threads without the boards senior members passing comment on the inanity.

If you want another example of your knee jerk sensitivity then -

onto another subject...you have already conveyed your displeasure in the album many times. that's enough...just let it go and let the rest of us bask in the album that we really enjoy

Absolute nonsense.  I have (briefly)posted twice about it - once in the Evil Urges discussion thread that I quoted in a previous post and once when I praised the 'peddle steel loveliness' of Look At You.  Search my posts and quote these 'many posts' please where I am slagging and bashing Evil Urges.  Go on.  Post them.  I'm waiting.  I expect at least 4 or 5.  Hell you even attacked the poster on this thread despite admitting you didn't even read his post properly!  You saw something negative and you jumped on it without even reading the post properly.  However after re-reading it you even admit the poster made some good points and they weren't really bashing the album at all.  What does that tell you huh?  You can try and explain your 'knee jerk sensitivity' and the reasons for that (I appreciate that) but it still doesn't stop all this sensitivity looking a bit silly and ott especially when you have clearly and blatantly exhibited this sensitivity on this very thread yourself and for NO reason at all.  Dragonboy summed it up nicely in the 'EU ROCKS: roll call' thread.

For all we know the new members posting on this board have never even heard the TN Fire or gems like "Tyrone" or "Come Closer."

::)  So what?  Again, this reeks of an elitist approach to this board.  I wasn't aware that before you post you had to own or are least here every single thing the bands done.  I haven't heard Tyrone.  Where does that leave me then eh?  

You can interpret my use of the words "get it" anyway you want, but I have already explained what I meant by it. I had an emotional connection with the album, others didn't.

I don't think it's about 'emotional connections' for a lot of people.  I think the fans that don't rate or like parts of this album (me included) have a problem with the music and lyrics and the quality within rather than not connecting to the themes or messages in the songs but thanks for explaining yourself and I appreciate it.

[cmccubbin25]

Goatboy, you said:

"I don't think it's about 'emotional connections' for a lot of people.  I think the fans that don't rate or like parts of this album (me included) have a problem with the music and lyrics and the quality within rather than not connecting to the themes or messages in the songs but thanks for explaining yourself and I appreciate it."

The other stuff we are arguing about is pointless, but I think you commentary above is spot on.  I think you have nailed the common criticism of this album.  For example, most people feel the album is too "poppy" or the lyrics are too literal.  I would agree that Jim has written catchier "pop" songs/hooks and that some of his lyrics on this album are quite obvious.  However, I believe we have to examine the context in which these songs were written to undertand them a little better.

Jim has stated in several interviews that the majority of these songs were written when he was falling in love with someone.  I think that if you keep that in mind while listening to the album it makes some of the songs make sense.  Yes, some of the songs and lyrics are quite simple, but don't you remember how you felt when you first fell in love.  You were so naive and everything in your little world seemed right.  That seems like where Jim is coming from with songs like "Thank You Too" and "Look At You" and then some of the more literal lyrics in other songs.  I think most of the songs on the album give off that "I'm in so love" vibe.  Just my thoughts...

Anyway...this makes me appreciate the album for what it is.
And that sentence in no way is meant presume that you or anyone else does not "appreciate" the album!

Also...I know what "disdain" means and some of the "trolls" coming on the board are trashing MMJ as a band, and in my book I consider that "disdain."

Goatboy...I've come to respect your insightful critiques even if you refer to something as "shit."

[Goat Boy]

The other stuff we are arguing about is pointless, but I think you commentary above is spot on.  I think you have nailed the common criticism of this album.  For example, most people feel the album is too "poppy" or the lyrics are too literal.  I would agree that Jim has written catchier "pop" songs/hooks and that some of his lyrics on this album are quite obvious.  However, I believe we have to examine the context in which these songs were written to undertand them a little better.

What pissed me off about the whole 'getting it' thing was that people (not you admittedly, sorry for tarring you with that particular brush) were suggesting that the reason why many aren't liking the record as much or have problems with it was some bizarre, undefined idea that there was something mysterious to actually 'get' that others were missing. Yes, some of the lyrics are weak but weak lyrics rarely bother me THAT much (unless they are dead poor) however musically the emphasis has switched slightly from Z to Evil Urges. This is why some people aren't quite digging it as much. That and the eclectic nature of the record means that it perhaps doesn't hang together like an album really should and especially compared to Z it suffers in that respect.

I guess I would consider Z a songwriting record and Evil Urges a production record. Obviously that's a simplistic description but Z seemed part of an ongoing refinement of Jim James songwriting that blossomed on that album. With the exception of the epic Dondante, and the coda of Off The Record it was tight, rigorously structured, sequenced perfectly with less of the extended instrumental flourishes i.e. 'jammin' that characterised It Still Moves (Dancefloors, Mahgeeta).  It was designed for maximum impact and it worked.

With Evil Urges the emphasis is more on sounds and rhythm rather than songwriting and The Voice. Understandably this will disappoint some fans as both are the bands unique strengths. Jim James voice especially is a remarkable instrument, which seemingly possesses its own inbuilt echo chamber and is capable of both delicate smoke ring melodies and intense guttural roars and screams.  The word that always springs to my mind whenever I hear or think about his voice is 'ethereal'. To then mask this instrument with effects and Prince esque falsettos would seem unnecessarily contrary for some I guess.  Like a prize-fighter not using his killer left hook but instead using body punches.

Touch Me part 1 for example, at first, seems fairly melodically slight. The rhythm section is the hook rather than the melody. Obviously it's similar to It Beats For You – a close cousin - but Touch Me part 1 is an rhythmic extension that trades melodic finesse for rhythmic instead. That is before the coda bursts into technicolor life.

Jim has stated in several interviews that the majority of these songs were written when he was falling in love with someone. I think that if you keep that in mind while listening to the album it makes some of the songs make sense. Yes, some of the songs and lyrics are quite simple, but don't you remember how you felt when you first fell in love. You were so naive and everything in your little world seemed right. That seems like where Jim is coming from with songs like "Thank You Too" and "Look At You" and then some of the more literal lyrics in other songs. I think most of the songs on the album give off that "I'm in so love" vibe. Just my thoughts...

That might explain the soppiness that is visible on Thank You Too for example. After I broke up with my gf for good I left her flat in tears and played this. The line about being 'worlds apart' kicked me right in the fucking guts.  I love the song by the way.  The soppiness seems kinda appropriate.  

The thing with Jim James is that he seems like an old fashioned soul. His lyrics occasionally possess an un-cynical wide-eyed naivety that is sort of out-of-sync with the modern day world and its cynicism. Two Halves and Librarian are both products of this. In response I think it's perhaps necessary for the more cynical amongst us (me especially) to suspend your disbelief somewhat when confronted with such sentiments in order to appreciate the place where they come from. A similar thing happens with Brian Wilson. A Day In The Life Of A Tree for example possesses an adult child lyrical innocence and sentiments that one either bursts out laughing or finds it profoundly moving. I find the later to be the case. Perhaps that's why Librarians lyrics don't bother me as much as some. I mean I can see why certain lines are weak and have non sequiturs but the overall ambience of the performance and the arrangement make up for it.

I appreciate reading your thoughts. It makes a change that somebody actually answers my posts with a personal insight that illuminates rather than posting images of internet trolls.

Also...I know what "disdain" means and some of the "trolls" coming on the board are trashing MMJ as a band, and in my book I consider that "disdain."

I don't think they have contempt personally but agree to disagree.  They just sound pissed off.