10 Ideas for MMJ

[ratsprayer]

fuck yeah!  tv shows!  wellfleet, i think i remember you and i agreeing (scary, i know!) on thinking its not a bad thing for bands to be on the O.C. and programs like that.  a lot of people call party foul, but there are certain programs out there trying to push an indie agenda music-wise, and thats a very good thing, me thinks.  besides, those O.C. watchin' people need something better to get excited about than fucking death cab for cutie.   ;D

[wellfleet]

i'm from the lizzie grubman school of PR... no such thing as bad publicity. i think fans of the band know the music well enough to not accuse the band of "selling out". they're in show business, not show charity. when i worked at HMV, the O.C. effect was very real and tangible sales-wise. back when the show was really hot, rooney played, next day, tons of requests for rooney cds.
i just feel like the band and the record need above-ground buzz. i hate to say it and i don't want to be a traitor to my generation or make a blanket statement, but kids today just don't read! if MOJO and RS et al make a big deal about MMJ it doesn't affect the sales as much as say, Seventeen or Maxim. i think the marketing team did good with the MySpace voting for song of the week. more things like that. but more music licensing to tv and film would be good... they need to get "off the record" on a major soundtrack. if they had a song on a "garden state" type soundtrack that sold really well, they would blow up...

[ratsprayer]

maybe the next time the O.C. wants to demonize pot, they can use the outro to Off the Record as the soundtrack to the freak out.  publicity!  zing!

[BIGVICLBI]

how bout some f-ing xxl t shirts???? :)

[orbison]

in case anyone was wondering, Z has sold about 170,000 copies.

[MMJ_fanatic]

in case anyone was wondering, Z has sold about 170,000 copies.

I was hoping it would be about 10 times that by now--too many fucking downloaders! >:(

[ratsprayer]

I was hoping it would be about 10 times that by now--too many fucking downloaders! >:(

thats a stereotypical thing to say overall.  i downloaded the leak and still bought the album.  i downloaded hundreds of albums a year and buy maybe 5 cds, and Z was one of them.  dont judge if ya dont know

[wellfleet]

well, i think MMJ Fanatic just proved a point. you download tons of albums and buy five. coming from music retail, i completely understand why people don't want to pay 10-15$ for 3 good songs and a bunch of filler. that said, it makes it really difficult for smaller companies to exist and have good A&R without sales revenue.
downloading absolutely, 100% hurts album sales. rat, you're a major MMJ fan, so you bought the album, but how about people who heard Z for the first time and decided to download instead of buy? that hurts the label, in this case, ATO, a really great label, and that's unfortunate.
i'm not going to call anyone a thief or pass judgment on dowloading, but after working in music retail, i stopped downloading. smallish bands need this money. i can see how someone downloading the new U2 album can justify it as stealing from the rich. but non-brand name bands are hurt by downloading.
i have nothing against downloading to preview an album and see if you like it. but i don't think it's fair to obtain something for nothing. to me, it's like a fake gucci bag. a designer has his life's work in a particular design, and someone knocks it off and sells it for next to nothing? personally, it just ain't fair to artists...
if bands don't move albums, they get dropped from their labels. and that's sad...  :(

[ratsprayer]

i know downloading isnt a subject that can be agreed upon, like most things.  i support bands by going to live shows which is where they make their money.  even if a cd is $15, a band doesnt see $1 of that.  its a sad world.  i cant vouch for all those who downloaded Z and werent arsed to buy it.  obviously its happened, probabaly a lot more than we realise.  its becoming more and more that a band doesnt need a label.  clap your hands say yeah just signed to a label recently after selling their cd like crazy for months making them themselves.  dan bern is on messenger records which has maybe 2 other artists on it. dan decides when hell put out a cd and has no recording obligation.  david tibet of current 93 started his own label and puts out whatever the fuck he wants.  these are just a few examples.  the major label is useless in this day and age.  being signed to warner just seems more symbolic now than the meaning it had 10 years ago.  the smaller indie labels are eventually going to win out, and when cd prices are dropped to the logical $8 or so they should be, ill start buying again.    all artists, big or small, make 90% or more of their money from touring and merchandise.  thats where i choose to focus my attention.  im not saying its right or wrong, just my personal choice.

[pubmonkey]

Dustin, i agree with what you say.  i saw wilco in clev. for 35bucks a pop at a sold out show.  too band 1/2 the crownd showed up to be cool.  MMJ could be on the same level, making a great living without having to compromise any musical integrity.  been superb everytime i've seen, turned on all my friends, even metalheads i know love this band, they see them live and cry like childeren. horrible spelling, need to stop the boozing. one of the last bands this old man travels to see, (also wilco and the good old days gbv).  would pay whatever it took to see these guys live.  

[EC]

i know downloading isnt a subject that can be agreed upon, like most things.  i support bands by going to live shows which is where they make their money.  even if a cd is $15, a band doesnt see $1 of that.  its a sad world.  i cant vouch for all those who downloaded Z and werent arsed to buy it.  obviously its happened, probabaly a lot more than we realise.  its becoming more and more that a band doesnt need a label.  clap your hands say yeah just signed to a label recently after selling their cd like crazy for months making them themselves.  dan bern is on messenger records which has maybe 2 other artists on it. dan decides when hell put out a cd and has no recording obligation.  david tibet of current 93 started his own label and puts out whatever the fuck he wants.  these are just a few examples.  the major label is useless in this day and age.  being signed to warner just seems more symbolic now than the meaning it had 10 years ago.  the smaller indie labels are eventually going to win out, and when cd prices are dropped to the logical $8 or so they should be, ill start buying again.    all artists, big or small, make 90% or more of their money from touring and merchandise.  thats where i choose to focus my attention.  im not saying its right or wrong, just my personal choice.

Okee dokes.  I'm not an expert on all of this.  But here's the thing - if you're on a major label and your record doesn't sell, you don't have a lot of credit going for you for deals and such.  I remember learning how much it cost to rent a bus for one day from my friend who works with bands.  You don't even want to know, it's beyond comprehension.  Major labels will front that kind of money for you - and believe me, you don't want to be in charge of finding that kind of INSANE money yourself.

Actually, honestly, don't believe me.  I'm kind of speculating based on the very little that I know.

It's very cool if you can release something on your own label and have it go somewhere, but I swear to everything that's important, a lot of that has to do with luck.  People don't talk to you unless you have another person call on your behalf.  It is the way it is.  

If you're an indie dude putting out your own record, you can't charge $8 a record.  You will make zero money.  Unless you have enough money to create 10, 000 cds at a time, usually you press 1000 cds at a time, and after you figure how much you spent making the album (which, even if you do it cheaply, it's not cheap), you might recoup your costs if you sell whatever is left of the 1000 cds after you send out a bunch to promo and such.

A bus costs more in two days than pressing 1000 cds.  (If I remember correctly.)

There are definitely pros and cons to being on a major label.  There are pros and cons to everything.  There's a lot of interesting details about the music industry that are CRAZY.  :)

[Coltrane]

I love MMJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






peanuts

[wellfleet]

i think that the 2 entity model (label & artist) is a really shortsighted way to look at the record business. i'm amazed by people who don't take the big picture into consideration. by stealing music, you're not only screwing the label out of at least recouping its A&R and promotion costs, you're screwing the artist out of his advance which is based on potential album sales, THEN, you really go to work and royally fuck:
the sound engineer
the sound mixer
the CD pressing factory
the guys who package CDs into boxes
the delivery guys
the artwork guys
all of whom get paid out of album revenue.

the cost of touring, advertising and promotion is enormous. labels pay for in-store placement, in-store signage, special discounts and coupons. not to mention that in most big box retailers, the CDs are actually sold at a LOSS. i.e., Best Buy pays 9$ for a CD they sell for 7.99$
i love indie labels, but they have do not have the muscle or the finances to really push artists, which is why many a popular indie artist never get past their first album. advertising and store placement cost a fortune and it's amazing to me that some people are unable to think that far ahead.
if MMJ sells out a club of 1000 seats, and that's big for them, let's say at 35$ a pop, which is a lot more than they charge. that's a very optimistic 35,000$, let's say we include merch in that figure to make it fair. they have to pay:
the band members
the roadies
the drivers
the bus
the gas
the food
the equipment
insurance
the venue
accomodations sometimes
that's a whole bunch of money for a little band that gets no love from pepsi or nike or hershey's...

[thebigbang]

Actually, if you don't say that Jim is sending us secret messages that he is selling out and/or that the PR team sux ass, people are pretty open minded around here to CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

I'm way late to this thread but I couldn't resist posting some Constructive Criticism. And do take special note of the necessary foundation blocks:

[wellfleet]

huh??

[ratsprayer]

i think that the 2 entity model (label & artist) is a really shortsighted way to look at the record business. i'm amazed by people who don't take the big picture into consideration. by stealing music, you're not only screwing the label out of at least recouping its A&R and promotion costs, you're screwing the artist out of his advance which is based on potential album sales, THEN, you really go to work and royally fuck:
the sound engineer
the sound mixer
the CD pressing factory
the guys who package CDs into boxes
the delivery guys
the artwork guys
all of whom get paid out of album revenue.

the cost of touring, advertising and promotion is enormous. labels pay for in-store placement, in-store signage, special discounts and coupons. not to mention that in most big box retailers, the CDs are actually sold at a LOSS. i.e., Best Buy pays 9$ for a CD they sell for 7.99$
i love indie labels, but they have do not have the muscle or the finances to really push artists, which is why many a popular indie artist never get past their first album. advertising and store placement cost a fortune and it's amazing to me that some people are unable to think that far ahead.
if MMJ sells out a club of 1000 seats, and that's big for them, let's say at 35$ a pop, which is a lot more than they charge. that's a very optimistic 35,000$, let's say we include merch in that figure to make it fair. they have to pay:
the band members
the roadies
the drivers
the bus
the gas
the food
the equipment
insurance
the venue
accomodations sometimes
that's a whole bunch of money for a little band that gets no love from pepsi or nike or hershey's...

you said in your post before this you werent going to pass judgement or call anyone a thief?  isnt that what youve just done?

[wellfleet]

ratsprayer, i'm not passing judgment. someone who steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving kids is technically a thief, but not necessarily a bad person. i didn't say anyone was a terrible being for downloading music.
but downloading copyrighted music without paying for it or obtaining the consent of the copyright owner IS stealing. it's copyright infringement and it's not what *I* believe in. i think that if an album or song is available for sale, it should be bought, not copied.
imagine you're an artist and you have an on-line portfolio. is it ok for me to print out the pictures of your artwork and give them away for free? why, then, would people buy your artwork if they can get a copy from me for nothing? if you subsist on selling your artwork, you're out of luck. is that morally acceptable? i'm sure angry ewok would be pretty freakin' angry if i used the photos on his site to make prints for my friends and family.
making music is a musician's JOB. sure, they enjoy their work, but it's their means of feeding their kids, planning for their retirement, buying a home...

[wellfleet]

not to mention that, in the united states anyway, and i'm not even in favor of prosecuting downloaders, you would be successfully prosecuted and hugely fined for "dowloading thousands of albums".
i don't know if giving teenagers a $10,000 fine is a good way to teach them a lesson. instead, they should be compelled to face all the people that are affected by music/movie downloading. the guy who works in a warehouse packaging CDs at 5.50$ an hour is not part of the major label conspiracy. for him, packaging fewer CDs and thus working fewer hours can have devastating consequences.

[ratsprayer]

at the current rate of prosecution, it would take 8,000 years for them to get to everyone.  ill be waiting.   :)

with the amount of money i spent on cds back in the day, (over 500 in less than 2 years) the pure truth is im still making up for all the money i was overcharged.  im a terrible asshole, and no matter what i say, my case wont be justified for those who oppose downloading.  i still support bands in the ways i feel is right, and thats all i can say.  to each his or her own.

[ycartrob]

I used to download for free, now I don't. I still make copies for people and sometimes I make mixed CD's. I'll always do that.

Also a little curious how used CD stores get past the concept of stealing music. Aren't they undercutting (and profiting) the record stores by selling copyrighted material?

Here's how Bob Mould (Husker Du, Sugar; 25 plus years in the industry) swayed me into not downloading for free. I will re-re-post what Bob Mould said when his unreleased music found the internet before official release date:
 
I totally understand the temptation to download tracks. The part that worries me, and I think it's justified, is that people will forget to pay. Let me draw a distinction between "the real Bob fans" and "the people who gather and trade music freely, without concern for the artists' livelihoods".  
  
One of the sites which had the record neatly compressed for instant gratification is maintained by someone who is clearly a big fan. A fan who got caught up in the excitement, enjoyed the record, and wanted to share the forbidden (or not quite ready to eat) fruit. Understandable. the disconnect comes with making it so easily available. Let's say 20 people downloaded it during its' last day on the site. If all of them liked it, and told a few friends, and it continued on like that for the next NINE weeks, we can all guess how many people would have the full album. How many of these people do we think would pay for an official release on July 26? Hard to say, but as the music spreads away from the "real Bob fans" (and how do we make the distinction?), the odds become less and less that I will see any money for my work.  
  
I think there's a great difference between sharing something directly with someone in a discreet manner, and making it available to everyone everywhere. It's the difference between tape trading (which it what everyone likens file sharing to) and wholesale distribution (think iTunes with less promotion and no fee required). I hope the analogy makes sense to some of you.  
  
Here's a thought: if you absolutely HAVE TO HAVE the album before street date, do me (and the record company) a favor: as you're waiting for the files to download, head over to the Yep Roc site, and pre-order whichever configuration you prefer. I'll be happy, you'll sleep better at night, and maybe the record company will make enough money to put out another Bob record next year. Oh - there's vinyl coming as well.  
  
I'm happy people are as excited about the record as I was when I finished it. Just don't be taking food off my table, OK? I work hard, and would like to be rewarded, same as all of you who go to work every day. I wish my life was so glamourous that I need not worry about paying bills, buying health insurance, or stashing a few bucks away for my retirement. Truth is: I work hard, and I expect to be paid for what I have to offer. Try to do the right thing, whatever that is these days.