??
is he an RnB artist? Why is he so famous? Why is he the artist of the year? Did I miss something? I don't get it.
Have you heard Channel Orange? It's really good and avoids all the cliche's of a typical r&b album. I'm not sure that I'd name him artist of the year, but he is extremely talented. He was the singer on No Church in the Wild off Watch the Throne as well. He works with Odd Future - but I truthfully don't get them. He's probably not an artist you listen to very much, but he does make some very good music. If you have spotify, listen to Super Rich Kids or Crack Rock. Those are the two most interesting songs off that album, IMO.
Ummmm,.... He's awesome. :shocked:
I guess I'd say he's R&B/Pop, but since I don't really listen to modern R&B or pop, I like to think of him as alt-R&B (it's a little catogorie I use to lessen the embarrassment of my love for Frank Ocean, The Weeknd and Drake). If his album Channel Orange wasn't my favorite album from this year, it was certainly my most played; and his last album Nostalgia remained on heavy rotation as well. I honestly can't get enough, I think he's kinda genius.
So what's it sound like? I guess I would describe it as what I would imagine would be playing in a very cool version of heaven. But really, for instance, on Nostalgia he 'covers' Coldplay's song Strawberry Swing, and re-imagines The Eagles' Hotel California and MGMT's Electric Feel. He also uses a snippet of Radiohead, and during an interlude semi-mocks his peers who might not know their music.
On Channel Orange, one of the songs has Elton John's Bennie and the Jets intro running through the whole song. Oh, and for further 'credibility', Divine Fits recently covered his song Lost. To me, he's really clever lyrically, and talks about things I wouldn't expect most in his position would or wouldn't as well as he does. Oh, and the beats, they're great too.
So would I suggest everyone check it out? Meh, maybe not. This is a My Morning Jacket board, and while I give everyone here credit for good taste and openmindedness, there aren't really any guitars...
But, if you find you do like it, you should still be able to google-up a free download of Nostalgia, which he released on tumblr a couple years ago, unless they took them all down since they're selling it now that he's big-ish (actually, he's probably gonna be huge, grammys and all, which is sorta a bummer...).
Channel Orange is probably my favorite/most played album of the year (maybe tied with Celebration Rock by Japandroids).
I love that guy!
Billy Ocean-Get Out Of My Dreams (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvarxGzIU3M#)
I'll raise your Billy Ocean with two Frank Oceans.
http://youtu.be/0rdJZbJWb7g (http://youtu.be/0rdJZbJWb7g)
http://youtu.be/8v9m0Bfm0YQ (http://youtu.be/8v9m0Bfm0YQ)
Quote from: Fully on Dec 11, 2012, 07:28 PM
I'll raise your Billy Ocean with two Frank Oceans.
http://youtu.be/0rdJZbJWb7g (http://youtu.be/0rdJZbJWb7g)
http://youtu.be/8v9m0Bfm0YQ (http://youtu.be/8v9m0Bfm0YQ)
I had heard his name but not his music.
After listening to just these 2, I gotta agree w/ e_wind.
Any other suggestions that aren't so pop, or covers?
You might just check out the video for Novacaine on YouTube, but if it's too pop for you, then it's probably gonna be too pop for you.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 11, 2012, 09:43 PM
You might just check out the video for Novacaine on YouTube, but if it's too pop for you, then it's probably gonna be too pop for you.
Checked out Novacaine, liked it a bit more but you're right - just too pop for me.
Kinda cool video though.
Watched a few more of his ... same feeling for me. Did hear a guitar, if not a guitar player. :grin:
Quote from: YimYodd on Dec 11, 2012, 10:21 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 11, 2012, 09:43 PM
You might just check out the video for Novacaine on YouTube, but if it's too pop for you, then it's probably gonna be too pop for you.
Checked out Novacaine, liked it a bit more but you're right - just too pop for me.
Kinda cool video though.
Watched a few more of his ... same feeling for me. Did hear a guitar, if not a guitar player. :grin:
I saw some video of him playing Coachella last year and it appeared he had an actual band, with a guitar player! :grin:
I know he's a bit of a Radiohead fan, as I mentioned above, and there a video circulating of him introing one of his songs with a partial cover of Fake Plastic Trees, so I know he at least appreciates good music, which I like about him. I am generally not much of a lyrics guy anymore, maybe I'm just to old to relate much to music lyrics, but I really like Frank Oceans'. Like I said, I find him witty and funny and self-deprecating, which is refreshing.
I'm a fan, but I can see how people drawn to more traditional rock might not find it all that appealing.
the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality? When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed
video is not the best but what I could find
http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU (http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU)
I also think the music stands on it's own, but the sexuality thing made me like him even more. Not being gay myself, but a big supporter of LGBT rights and having gay friends, it's an issue I'm sensitive to, and I thought his 'revelation' was highly courageous. I guess it's the courage aspect as much as anything that increased my appreciation, but like I said, I was a huge fan before and loved Nostalgia. I am not sure it helped or increased his popularity though, if anything I think it was a pretty big risk, as average fans of R&B don't necessarily overlap with supporters of LGBT rights, hence the courageous aspect.
He's pretty good. don't understand why he's being praised like he's the greatest thing since sliced McCartney, but i dig it.
I'm not hating at all. It just came a surprise. And I wondered if I was the only with questions
Hey exist10z
" Watched a few more of his ... same feeling for me. Did hear a guitar, if not a guitar player. "
My attempt at a bit of humor - was gonna say "real" or "wicked" guitar" player but didn't wanna dis the player too much - & confirming your initial response to e_wind about this music not having much guitar.
I did watch his Coachella performance , still couldn't get into it much. Opens with a kinda tepid, "throw-away" version of Dylans' Long Time Gone that he doesn't finish.
I don't know if he's givin Bob props or dissin him (wouldn't be the first to do either).
Watched Divine Fits cover of Lost and liked it better than the original, although I did like original more than his other stuff I've heard. I put his version on my ipod ,will keep looking for a couple others - to have some more "new" stuff to play.
i don't know much about him but I saw the Fake Plastic Trees vid and it's pretty cool.
Frank Ocean - Fake Plastic Trees (Radiohead Cover) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClTDuQNZAkM#)
Quote from: parkervb on Dec 12, 2012, 10:33 AM
the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality? When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed
video is not the best but what I could find
http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU (http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU)
For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......
Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 AM
Quote from: parkervb on Dec 12, 2012, 10:33 AM
the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality? When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed
video is not the best but what I could find
http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU (http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU)
For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......
Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!
Really? A marketing niche? Cynical much?
As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.
If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged. He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.
I feel like his publicist. But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.
In a market swamped with mediocre R&B, which isn't R&B anyway if we really want to be honest, how better to make yourself stand out than with a little cryptic message about your sexuality that gets everybody talking about you?
Cynical.....hell yes!
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 09:22 AM
In a market swamped with mediocre R&B, which isn't R&B anyway if we really want to be honest, how better to make yourself stand out than with a little cryptic message about your sexuality that gets everybody talking about you?
Cynical.....hell yes!
Agree
A friend of mine is a sculptor and pretty good, but socially he is awkward, plus he is a conservative and dresses like an average guy. We have had a running joke for about 20 years that if he marketed himself as a gay guy with some sort of a fetish (a parrot? a muslim boyfriend? a name change?) he would at least be more popular as an artist.
I always thought a lot of R & B guys and rappers were gay (Kanye West) but just dared not come out.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 AM
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 AM
Quote from: parkervb on Dec 12, 2012, 10:33 AM
the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality? When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed
video is not the best but what I could find
http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU (http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU)
For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......
Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!
Really? A marketing niche? Cynical much?
As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.
If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged. He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.
I feel like his publicist. But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.
It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen :rolleyes:
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 09:22 AM
In a market swamped with mediocre R&B, which isn't R&B anyway if we really want to be honest, how better to make yourself stand out than with a little cryptic message about your sexuality that gets everybody talking about you?
Cynical.....hell yes!
Cynical and true. Modern R&B is so far out of my wheelhouse I won't listen to anyone with that moniker because it mostly blows. All the news reports about Frank Ocean and his sexuality intrigued me, and therefore I actually listened to the music, and Channel Orange is most definitely in my top 5 albums this year.
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 09:59 AM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 AM
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 AM
Quote from: parkervb on Dec 12, 2012, 10:33 AM
the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality? When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed
video is not the best but what I could find
http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU (http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU)
For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......
Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!
Really? A marketing niche? Cynical much?
As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.
If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged. He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.
I feel like his publicist. But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.
It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen :rolleyes:
"Being gay in the black community isn't in,...." also spot on. Try to spot the black faces in the clip posted earlier in the thread....all I saw were a lot of winsome white student-types!
Anyway, each to their own but on a musical front the four clips I just listened to were mediocre at best to me. But then again that type of "R&B" isn't my thing anyway.
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 09:59 AM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 AM
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 AM
Quote from: parkervb on Dec 12, 2012, 10:33 AM
the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality? When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed
video is not the best but what I could find
http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU (http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU)
For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......
Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!
Really? A marketing niche? Cynical much?
As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.
If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged. He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.
I feel like his publicist. But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.
It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen :rolleyes:
I can't decide whether that's more homophobic or racist, it's probably a tie. I am sure you don't think it's either, and I guess that's why it's so disappointing. I kinda hope you're not serious, but it's tough to tell (and others clearly have similar feelings, not everyone is kidding).
I guess MMJ just covers Erykah Badu, Curtis Mayfield and Lionle Ritchie to lure in black listeners? Or maybe to appear particularly 'cool' and hip, and get people like me to listen? Or, here's a novel concept, maybe they just appreciate the music. Maybe it's not a marketing angle. But we would never accuse MMJ of working a marketing angle, they're sincere (I believe they are), but Frank Ocean (since you don't like his music, and maybe because he's black?) is inventing sexual orientations and musical tastes simply to sell more records. He couldn't possibly be sincere. Do you have any idea how cynical that sounds?
Have you actually listened to the music? You realize a large part of his appeal is what he sings about and how he says it right? You may or may not have any interest in the topics he covers, the people he describes, or the situations he illuminates, but his lyrical expositions on the world he encounters, and his 'honesty' (genuine?) is generally why he is praised. Do we ever take anyone at face value anymore? I guess we are really off of Frank Ocean entirely at this point, and onto a discussion of 'reality' and marketing in modern entertainment culture.
The direction this thread has taken makes me really sad. It's one thing to not like certain music, this has gone somewhere else entirely...
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 11:00 AM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 09:59 AM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 06:57 AM
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 06:46 AM
Quote from: parkervb on Dec 12, 2012, 10:33 AM
the music stands on its own, but do you think any piece of his success is the buzz that came from his openness about his sexuality? When he performed Bad Religion on Fallon...slayed
video is not the best but what I could find
http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU (http://youtu.be/sDSPybTFYHU)
For sure he's found himself a nice little marketing niche there......
Listened to those first two clips and that's enough.....doesn't do anything for me musically or sexually!
Really? A marketing niche? Cynical much?
As I said in an earlier post, I suspect if anything he hurt his commercial viability.
If you know the story, he basically just posted a short message about accepting other people and a story about his first love being man, and how it's difficult enough to get through life without being judged. He hasn't said anything about his sexuality after that one brief missive.
I feel like his publicist. But really, it sounds like you didn't dig the music, which is fine, and then sort of wrote him off entirely.
It absolutely doesn't hurt his commercial viability. Have you watched a TV lately? Gay is in! Black is in! Now, being gay in the black community isn't in, but Obama supports gay marriage! He's a rebel! Plus, how clever is it to have a gay black man do Radiohead covers? You have any ideas how many markets you hit with that move? It got you to listen :rolleyes:
I can't decide whether that's more homophobic or racist, it's probably a tie. I am sure you don't think it's either, and I guess that's why it's so disappointing. I kinda hope you're not serious, but it's tough to tell (and others clearly have similar feelings, not everyone is kidding).
I guess MMJ just covers Erykah Badu, Curtis Mayfield and Lionle Ritchie to lure in black listeners? Or maybe to appear particularly 'cool' and hip, and get people like me to listen? Or, here's a novel concept, maybe they just appreciate the music. Maybe it's not a marketing angle. But we would never accuse MMJ of working a marketing angle, they're sincere (I believe they are), but Frank Ocean (since you don't like his music, and maybe because he's black?) is inventing sexual orientations and musical tastes simply to sell more records. He couldn't possibly be sincere. Do you have any idea how cynical that sounds?
Have you actually listened to the music? You realize a large part of his appeal is what he sings about and how he says it right? You may or may not have any interest in the topics he covers, the people he describes, or the situations he illuminates, but his lyrical expositions on the world he encounters, and his 'honesty' (genuine?) is generally why he is praised. Do we ever take anyone at face value anymore? I guess we are really off of Frank Ocean entirely at this point, and onto a discussion of 'reality' and marketing in modern entertainment culture.
The direction this thread has taken makes me really sad. It's one thing to not like certain music, this has gone somewhere else entirely...
Did I say he
invented his sexual orientation? Your knee jerk reaction is seeing that. Please read my post again; you are making stuff up.
I never said he invented his sexual orientation.Do you think when Madonna kissed Christina and Britney on stage that they are all gay? Or were they marketing something?
When record execs get the gangster rap out to white suburbia (where a large % of the revenue comes from) are they marketing the music or the message or the fear?
Open your eyes man. He is a commercial commodity.
I tell people how anything dealing with race and sexual orientation can be twisted into racism and homophobia; it's 1 step short of critical thinking.
Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic? I have never been accused of being either, so, please, enlighten me. (however, I was called a N lover in high school back in the 70's)
This would be a much better discussion about Frank Ocean if you weren't so emotional and weren't putting words in my mouth.
Well the title of the thread is "What's the deal with Frank Ocean" so I don't think the thread has taken a turn in any particular direction. It was saying, "I don't get it at all." If the thread was an "I love Frank Ocean's music" thread you could say people were out of order for using it to criticise.
I'd never listened to Frank Ocean and this thread made me at least listen to four songs, none of which really get me going. I don't think anyone was offensive about his music, but simply commented that they either liked it or didn't like it.
As for anything "homophobic" or "racist" in Tracy's post you might need to explain yourself there I'm afraid. You've certainly made me chuckle on a Friday afternoon! I can't see any homophobic or racist comments. Cynical yes, and we're holding our hands up to that one. We might allege that you are naive but that's just a question of how people look at things. It's not a crime.
We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.). This is in the music section. You don't like his music, it's been noted. Like I care. I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever. Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged. I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not. Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in. Because gay and black is 'in'. :rolleyes:
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 11:55 AM
We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.). This is in the music section. You don't like his music, it's been noted. Like I care. I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever. Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged. I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not. Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in. Because gay and black is 'in'. :rolleyes:
You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!
Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 11:58 AM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 11:55 AM
We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.). This is in the music section. You don't like his music, it's been noted. Like I care. I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever. Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged. I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not. Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in. Because gay and black is 'in'. :rolleyes:
You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!
Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?
Again, not the place. Start another thread in off-topics, quote what you wrote, and I'll try to explain. I don't think you'll get it or agree, but I assure you I will take the time and effort to make my case.
Oh, and I didn't call you a racist and a homophobe, I said what you wrote was racist and homophobic. Big difference, which is often overlooked. Even the most mellow people sometimes lose their temper, if every action we ever took signified everything we ever were, we would all be in trouble.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 12:03 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 11:58 AM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 11:55 AM
We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.). This is in the music section. You don't like his music, it's been noted. Like I care. I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever. Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged. I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not. Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in. Because gay and black is 'in'. :rolleyes:
You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!
Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?
Again, not the place. Start another thread in off-topics, quote what you wrote, and I'll try to explain. I don't think you'll get it or agree, but I assure you I will take the time and effort to make my case.
All I will say is I posted the same way as if I were talking to any of my dear gay or black friends. And I know they would understand my point b/c of the depth of the discussions we have had about race and sexual orientation and how they have enlightened this white guy into what it's like being oppressed in our society.
You want to jump to a conclusion so quickly that I am racist or homophobic simply b/c I pointed out that a certain race and sexual orientation may be more commercially viable than another at this point in time really doesn't warrant an interest in me about your opinion of anything else. I am glad black is in. I am glad gay is in. I am glad Hispanic is in. And, I am glad that playing the race card is on its way out.
I don't see why this thread can't contain this discussion, the title isn't "What's the deal with Frank Ocean's music?" (employing capitalization and punctuation, just because) and it seemed like e_wind was asking about the guy himself in addition to the music. The mention of race or sexual orientation, even as possible factors in his popularity, doesn't imply racism or homophobia.
That said,
(http://stylealchemy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/kingofpopcorn1.gif)
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 12:11 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 12:03 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 11:58 AM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 11:55 AM
We really ought to start another topic/thread, in the off-topics section, to discuss racism (homophobia, bigotry, misogyny, etc.). This is in the music section. You don't like his music, it's been noted. Like I care. I bet you don't like The Smiths either, pasty white guys from Manchester, and one of my favorite bands ever. Having varied tastes is fine, encouraged. I am sure Frank Ocean is going to make plenty of money and be plenty successful, whether any of us Jacket fans like him or not. Hell, from the way I read it here, all you have to do is be gay and black and the money and praise just start rolling in. Because gay and black is 'in'. :rolleyes:
You're just going to call me a racist and homophobic and just go tooling along? Come on man, step up!
Tell me, how is my post racist or homophobic?
Again, not the place. Start another thread in off-topics, quote what you wrote, and I'll try to explain. I don't think you'll get it or agree, but I assure you I will take the time and effort to make my case.
All I will say is I posted the same way as if I were talking to any of my dear gay or black friends. And I know they would understand my point b/c of the depth of the discussions we have had about race and sexual orientation and how they have enlightened this white guy into what it's like being oppressed in our society.
You want to jump to a conclusion so quickly that I am racist or homophobic simply b/c I pointed out that a certain race and sexual orientation may be more commercially viable than another at this point in time really doesn't warrant an interest in me about your opinion of anything else. I am glad black is in. I am glad gay is in. I am glad Hispanic is in. And, I am glad that playing the race card is on its way out.
I must have added this while you were writing a response, wish you would have seen it first...
Oh, and I didn't call you a racist and a homophobe, I said what you wrote was racist and homophobic. Big difference, which is often overlooked. Even the most mellow people sometimes lose their temper, if every action we ever took signified everything we ever were, we would all be in trouble.But regardless, I am sure people who know you would have known what you meant, but people who don't wouldn't necessarily. Because it was racist and homophobic. There's a reason there's a 'race card' and those reasons are as valid today as they ever were. I am sure if your gay and black friends are lucky enough not to be able to explain the reasons to you, you could easily find others who could.
Quote from: Crispy on Dec 14, 2012, 12:19 PM
I don't see why this thread can't contain this discussion, the title isn't "What's the deal with Frank Ocean's music?" (employing capitalization and punctuation, just because) and it seemed like e_wind was asking about the guy himself in addition to the music. The mention of race or sexual orientation, even as possible factors in his popularity, doesn't imply racism or homophobia.
That said,
(http://stylealchemy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/kingofpopcorn1.gif)
2 weeks ago I had never heard of Frank Ocean and now I am defending my integrity and honor b/c of him.
I tell you, his marketing team is brilliant!
BTW - Consequence of Sound's album of the year... You guessed it! Frank Ocean - Channel Orange :thumbsup:
Guess they just wanted to give it to a black gay guy... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 14, 2012, 11:28 AM
As for anything "homophobic" or "racist" in Tracy's post you might need to explain yourself there I'm afraid. You've certainly made me chuckle on a Friday afternoon! I can't see any homophobic or racist comments. Cynical yes, and we're holding our hands up to that one. We might allege that you are naive but that's just a question of how people look at things. It's not a crime.
This pretty much sums up this argument. Tracy's post certainly wasn't racist or homo, but it certainly was cynical (and spot on).
As for the content of this thread, It was a question encompassing everything that is Frank Ocean. I hadn't heard of him until CoS posted that Fake Plastic Trees cover and now he's everywhere.
I have no idea who Frank Ocean is, but seems like Tracy was talking about EFFECT not INTENT of the artist..
Tracy is just stating that he probably appeals to this audience, fills this niche (not racist or homophobic, just making a statement). I think it's okay to talk about gender/race/sexual persuasion when making statements about demographics or why something's popular. Tracy isn't saying that he's good or not good based on those reasons.
At least that's how I took it..but exist, I totally see why you could take it that way.
I really took what Tracy said as cynicism about the timing and publicizing of Ocean's statement. I didn't take it as racist or homophobic at all.
yea, i didn't see much racism/homophobia in some of the posts. The acknowledged cynicism is kind of sad IMO. It has to be a bummer to always see things through that lens.
Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic. I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic. However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic. I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.
Maybe it's a perception problem. As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me. If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me. I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.
I guess the other issue, is that this whole thing has been presented as a, 'this must be all marketing because I don't get it'. That's pretty arrogant. Like I said, CoS and Paste both rated it the best album of the year (Paste's #2 was Father John Misti, was that all 'white beard guy' marketing?). So, it starts to look like, 'well, I don't like it, so it couldn't be very good, and since it's getting blown up, the hype must be because of the sexuality or the race.' There's lot's of shit getting hyped up that I don't get at all, but that's not necessarily because there's anything wrong with the music, or it really isn't as good as purported, just maybe that it isn't what I am into. I'm sure Swans and Death Grips and Godspeed! are great, innovative and amazing albums, but it's not my thing. I don't suggest they're all hype, or that their accliam is the product of select sub-groups though, I assume it has value that I just don't appreciate. That aspect of this thread has also bothered me.
Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time. I'm gonna go put on some Frank Ocean and chill out, because his gay black hipster R&B hype appeals to 'people like me'... :smiley:
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic. I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic. However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic. I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.
Maybe it's a perception problem. As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me. If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me. I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.
Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.
People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?
Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you
choose not to.
You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.
And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time.
Right. You're just going to throw out the race card and carry on your merry little way, talking about how you don't like disagreements on message boards.
You're a piece of work.
Unless you're trolling me up, then it's on me, but I can handle that.
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:04 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic. I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic. However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic. I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.
Maybe it's a perception problem. As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me. If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me. I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.
Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.
People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?
Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.
You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.
And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.
Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks. That's constructive.
At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. :wink:
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:14 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time.
Right. You're just going to throw out the race card and carry on your merry little way, talking about how you don't like disagreements on message boards.
You're a piece of work.
Unless you're trolling me up, then it's on me, but I can handle that.
So which is greater, my white guilt or your white persecution complex? :grin:
Exist- I like Ocean's album myself, so take that for what it's worth. But I still can agree with Tracy that it's very trendy to be gay or bisexual. I'm not as cynical about Ocean's letter though. In the black community, homosexuality is much less accepted particularly for males. Even though it garnered Ocean a lot of publicity as his album was coming out, it was a very ballsy move for an African American male to publicly announce his sexual ambiguity to the world. When was the last time we saw a rap artist announce his homosexuality? Never. Does anyone really think there aren't gay, black rappers? Ocean is on the vanguard with his announcement. As someone who has watched her gay students come out of the closet at younger and younger ages over the past 22 years, it has to be a good thing when artists and others in the public eye are also open about their homosexuality. Hell, even that stupid Katy Perry song about kissing a girl brought about a change. That school year lesbians blossomed like the mold that covers my walls in my classroom.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 03:19 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:04 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic. I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic. However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic. I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.
Maybe it's a perception problem. As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me. If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me. I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.
Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.
People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?
Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.
You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.
And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.
Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks. That's constructive.
At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. :wink:
No, no, no; I didn't say YOU were suffering from white guilt, I said you "sound" like you are suffering from white guilt. And I didn't say you "are" one of those PC people I used to work with, I said you "reminded" me of them. You are reading waaaay too much into my statements.
Did I do that right? Did I effectively back out of a statement I made? I sure wouldn't want to say anything I didn't mean and I am not here to make waves or ruffle feathers. I am hear to figure out what the deal is with Frank Ocean.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 03:22 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:14 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Again, whatever, I hate getting into disagreements on message boards, it's generally a waste of time.
Right. You're just going to throw out the race card and carry on your merry little way, talking about how you don't like disagreements on message boards.
You're a piece of work.
Unless you're trolling me up, then it's on me, but I can handle that.
So which is greater, my white guilt or your white persecution complex? :grin:
I smell a troll
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:24 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 03:19 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:04 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic. I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic. However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic. I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.
Maybe it's a perception problem. As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me. If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me. I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.
Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.
People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?
Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.
You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.
And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.
Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks. That's constructive.
At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. :wink:
No, no, no; I didn't say YOU were suffering from white guilt, I said you "sound" like you are suffering from white guilt. And I didn't say you "are" one of those PC people I used to work with, I said you "reminded" me of them. You are reading waaaay too much into my statements.
Did I do that right? Did I effectively back out of a statement I made? I sure wouldn't want to say anything I didn't mean and I am not here to make waves or ruffle feathers. I am hear to figure out what the deal is with Frank Ocean.
That actually would have been a pretty nice attempt, except you actually did say, "and you got a bad case of it." in reference to 'white guilt'. So there was nothing veiled about about your attempt to undermine my argument by undermining me personally (ad hominem).
And for the record, I do indeed have 'white guilt', if what that entails is feeling regret about what people in power, people like me and my family and friends, did and continue to do to a vast segment of the population for no other reason than the color of their skin. But that was a long time ago right? 150 years, or wait 50 years, oh wait, maybe yesterday.
If you think that invalidates my opinion, or I'm too sensitive, or that I just don't see things clearly and am misguided, that's fine. I wasn't here to receive validation of my socio-political, social justice or humanitarian positions. I was here to discuss music. I am having a tough time recalling now, but I think I recall enjoying your thoughts on music.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 03:44 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:24 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 03:19 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 14, 2012, 03:04 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 14, 2012, 02:43 PM
Just to reiterate, I wasn't calling anyone racist or homophobic. I said I thought the comments were racist and homophobic. However, I probably should have even toned THAT down and said that 'through the lens that I view the world' the comments are racist and homophobic. I don't expect everyone to see the world as I do.
Maybe it's a perception problem. As for the perception that Tracy was simply commenting on who Frank Ocean might be marketed to, and referencing being black or gay in that context, that doesn't bother me (although I still can't see how those factors help him from a marketing standpoint, as has been noted, many/most of his fans are clearly white and straight). However, the idea that being black or gay is 'in', is offensive to me. If anyone seriously thinks being either black or gay is 'in', and that these groups don't face massive predjudice and discrimination, you must be living in a different country than me. I'm a straight educated white upper-class male, I'll always be 'IN', and to suggest that these other groups have some sort of advantage from a marketing or economic standpoint because they're 'in', is patently absurd.
Sounds like you suffer from white guilt. My black friends tell me there is nothing that gets in the way of real discussions on race more than white guilt. And you got a bad case of it. You are bringing in such a loaded agenda into this discussion I wouldn't even know where to begin.
People may be using Frank Ocean's race and sexual orientation for marketing purposes = there is no racism in America? That's what you got from my post?
Most everyone else can see my point I was making; you choose not to.
You remind me of some of the uber PC white people I used to work with. I used to facilitate a parenting group for mainly inner city families. 90% of the black families we served came from single mother homes. When I asked the question at a staffing: "Why are there so many absent fathers in the black community?" I got accused of being a racist and out of touch. For asking a question. You remind me of those people.
And another thing, if you think that being a well-educated, white male will ALWAYS be "in", I suggest you not take that to the bank; for the times they are a changin'.
Oh good, we've moved from strawman arguments to ad hominem attacks. That's constructive.
At least we can agree on one thing, we'll never see eye to eye. :wink:
No, no, no; I didn't say YOU were suffering from white guilt, I said you "sound" like you are suffering from white guilt. And I didn't say you "are" one of those PC people I used to work with, I said you "reminded" me of them. You are reading waaaay too much into my statements.
Did I do that right? Did I effectively back out of a statement I made? I sure wouldn't want to say anything I didn't mean and I am not here to make waves or ruffle feathers. I am hear to figure out what the deal is with Frank Ocean.
That actually would have been a pretty nice attempt, except you actually did say, "and you got a bad case of it." in reference to 'white guilt'. So there was nothing veiled about about your attempt to undermine my argument by undermining me personally (ad hominem).
And for the record, I do indeed have 'white guilt', if what that entails is feeling regret about what people in power, people like me and my family and friends, did and continue to do to a vast segment of the population for no other reason than the color of their skin. But that was a long time ago right? 150 years, or wait 50 years, oh wait, maybe yesterday.
If you think that invalidates my opinion, or I'm too sensitive, or that I just don't see things clearly and am misguided, that's fine. I wasn't here to receive validation of my socio-political, social justice or humanitarian positions. I was here to discuss music. I am having a tough time recalling now, but I think I recall enjoying your thoughts on music.
I suggest you address the other 6-7 people who agree with me; I am done.
I'm with Tracy on this one. I remember when it was a huge deal when Ellen Degeneres's character came out on her TV show, now it's like required to have at least one gay character on every show.
Posted this on another message board about a week ago, & Ill just stick with it
"I had listened to samples of the album awhile back and it didnt grab me, but that was a poor choice as this sort of r&b fusion (dont know what else to call it) is way out of my wheelhouse. After continuing to see it at the top of year end lists, had to give it a proper listen a few days ago. It is very good, was especially surprised I like(d) it as much as I did. Great song writing, some very intelligent lyrics and wordplay. I like how this has a sound based in r&b, and there are definitely some pure r&b songs there like Thinkin Bout You, but a lot of the album has more hip hop influenced lyrics. I can't argue seeing it so highly rated. Didnt realize he was affiliated with Odd Future."
There was at least a half dozen people giving the album props on that board, and it isnt even a music related forum, but I had no clue about his gay comment or him being gay, and no one there mentioned it. I would have assumed before reading this thread an album like this isnt something most MMJ fans would enjoy, so Im not surprised, but I think this is a great album. I listen to a pretty wide range of music (current country and rap rap excluded), and I could see why many are praising this album from the first listen. I listened to Nostalgia, Ultra yesterday for the first time, and it might be even better. Guy has talent.
If you wanna talk about about overrated albums and whats the deal, I present Kendrick Lamar. I appreciate the concept album aspect of Good Kid, mAAd city, but that album does nothing for me for the most part. A few interesting songs, but mostly it sounds like any other mainstream rap album these days to me.
Quote from: capt. scotty on Jan 01, 2013, 04:43 PM
Posted this on another message board about a week ago, & Ill just stick with it
"I had listened to samples of the album awhile back and it didnt grab me, but that was a poor choice as this sort of r&b fusion (dont know what else to call it) is way out of my wheelhouse. After continuing to see it at the top of year end lists, had to give it a proper listen a few days ago. It is very good, was especially surprised I like(d) it as much as I did. Great song writing, some very intelligent lyrics and wordplay. I like how this has a sound based in r&b, and there are definitely some pure r&b songs there like Thinkin Bout You, but a lot of the album has more hip hop influenced lyrics. I can't argue seeing it so highly rated. Didnt realize he was affiliated with Odd Future."
There was at least a half dozen people giving the album props on that board, and it isnt even a music related forum, but I had no clue about his gay comment or him being gay, and no one there mentioned it. I would have assumed before reading this thread an album like this isnt something most MMJ fans would enjoy, so Im not surprised, but I think this is a great album. I listen to a pretty wide range of music (current country and rap rap excluded), and I could see why many are praising this album from the first listen. I listened to Nostalgia, Ultra yesterday for the first time, and it might be even better. Guy has talent.
If you wanna talk about about overrated albums and whats the deal, I present Kendrick Lamar. I appreciate the concept album aspect of Good Kid, mAAd city, but that album does nothing for me for the most part. A few interesting songs, but mostly it sounds like any other mainstream rap album these days to me.
This. It's the lyrics, it's the beats. It's just freaking great. If you don't like it, that's cool, but the cat is super talented...
....another point of view
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/12/frank_ocean_is_boring.php (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/12/frank_ocean_is_boring.php)
Quote from: YimYodd on Jan 01, 2013, 09:04 PM
....another point of view
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/12/frank_ocean_is_boring.php (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/12/frank_ocean_is_boring.php)
Cant believe I read that whole review. Not only did it take forever to actually talk about this album, but it pretty much wrote it off all together. Like exist10z said before me, this isnt an album for everyone, but to just completely throw it aside like this reviewer did and not give Ocean any credit is ridiculous. Whether you like it or not, this is a good album.