I am a teacher. This is my 18th year. As a student teacher in Greensboro, NC, I faced an armed student (loaded 45 caliber handgun). In my current school, here in NH, I detained a student for a weapon; turned out to be a loaded revolver of some kind. The events of Friday in CT tear at my heart.
The intent of the 18-century 2nd Amendment was not this. We need to make it difficult for ordinary folks to own guns designed to kill a lot of people, easily. I'm not saying ban them, but there is a difference between a drivers license and a commercial drivers license. There should be a higher standard for non-hunting weapons, as well. There need to be strict laws regarding the safe storage of guns and ammunition. We need a limit on high-capacity clips. We need a waiting period and thorough and fair background check. And a permanent ban on assault weapons and fully-automatic firearms.
Some interesting things...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NFZZrZxYzCs/UBQqAe1WClI/AAAAAAAAAuA/lMuitY8xURU/s1600/guns+and+cars.jpg)
DID YOU KNOW? In one year on average, almost 100,000 people in America are shot or killed with a gun.
•In one year, 31,593 people died from gun violence and 66,769 people survived gun injuries (National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC)). That includes:
◦12,179 people murdered and 44,466 people shot in an attack (NCIPC).
◦18,223 people who killed themselves and 3,031 people who survived a suicide attempt with a gun (NCIPC).
◦592 people who were killed unintentionally and 18,610 who were shot unintentionally but survived (NCIPC).
•Over a million people have been killed with guns in the United States since 1968, when Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy were assassinated (Childrens' Defense Fund, p. 20).
•U.S. homicide rates are 6.9 times higher than rates in 22 other populous high-income countries combined, despite similar non-lethal crime and violence rates. The firearm homicide rate in the U.S. is 19.5 times higher (Richardson, p.1).
•Among 23 populous, high-income countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States (Richardson, p. 1).
•Gun violence impacts society in countless ways: medical costs, costs of the criminal justice system, security precautions such as metal detectors, and reductions in quality of life because of fear of gun violence. These impacts are estimated to cost U.S. citizens $100 billion annually (Cook, 2000).
DID YOU KNOW? Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths. •An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).
•Higher household gun ownership correlates with higher rates of homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings (Harvard Injury Control Center).
•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17 (Kellermann, 1992, p. 467; Wiebe, p. 771).
•Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of homicide by a factor of 3 (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).
DID YOU KNOW? On the whole, guns are more likely to raise the risk of injury than to confer protection.
•A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a completed or attempted suicide (11x), criminal assault or homicide (7x), or unintentional shooting death or injury (4x) than to be used in a self-defense shooting. (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).
•Guns are used to intimidate and threaten 4 to 6 times more often than they are used to thwart crime (Hemenway, p. 269).
•Every year there are only about 200 legally justified self-defense homicides by private citizens (FBI, Expanded Homicide Data, Table 15) compared with over 30,000 gun deaths (NCIPC).
•A 2009 study found that people in possession of a gun are 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault (Branas).
DID YOU KNOW? Assaults and suicide attempts with firearms are much more likely to be fatal than those perpetrated with less lethal weapons or means. Removing guns saves lives.
•There are five times as many deaths from gun assaults as from knife assaults, where the rates of assault with knives and with guns are similar (Zimring, p. 199).
•More than 90 percent of suicide attempts with a gun are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626). In comparison, only 3 percent of attempts with drugs or cutting are fatal (Miller, 2004, p. 626).
DID YOU KNOW? Guns can be sold in the United States without a background check to screen out criminals or the mentally ill.
•It is estimated that over forty percent of gun acquisitions occur in the secondary market. That means that they happen without a Brady background check at a federally licensed dealer (Cook, p. 26).
•Sales from federal firearm licensees (FFLs) require a background check. Sales between individuals, under federal law, do not require a background check. This means that felons can "lie and buy" at gun shows and other places where guns are readily available.
SOLUTION: We need to make it harder for convicted felons, the dangerously mentally ill, and other prohibited persons to obtain guns by implementing strong gun laws and policies that will protect our families and communities from gun violence.
Sources
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, based on Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, "Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 1997, 46(5): 101-105; United Nations Tenth Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, 2005-2006; Australian Institute of Criminology. National Homicide Monitoring Program Annual Report 2006-2007; Home Office Statistical Bulletin, "England / Wales: Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2006/07"; Population References (except England and Wales): Population Reference Bureau, 2006 World Population Data Sheet; Population estimates for England and Wales
Branas et al, "Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault," American Journal of Public Health, 99(11)(2009), published online ahead of print, Sep 17, 2009
Children's Defense Fund, Protect Children Not Guns 2009, September 2009
Cook, Philip J, and Jens Ludwig, Gun Violence: The Real Costs, New York, NY: Oxford University Press, 2000
Cook, PJ and J Ludwig, Guns in America: Results of a Comprehensive National Survey on Firearms Ownership and Use, (Washington, DC: Police Foundation, 1996).
Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports, Crime in the United States, 2008, Expanded Homicide Data Table 15 and Table 15
Harvard School of Public Health: Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Homicide – Suicide – Accidents – Children and Women, Boston: Harvard School of Public Health, 2009, http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html)
Hemenway, David and Deborah Azrael., "The Relative Frequency of Offensive and Defensive Gun Uses: Results From a National Survey," Violence and Victims, 15(3) (2000): 257-272
Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., "Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home," Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, 45(2) (1998): 263-267
Kellermann, Arthur L. MD, MPH, et al., "Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home," New England Journal of Medicine, 329(15) (1993): 1084-1091
Kellermann, Arthur L. et al., "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership," New England Journal of Medicine, 327(7) (1992): 467-472
Miller, Matthew, David Hemenway, Deborah Azrael, "Firearms and Suicide in the Northeast," Journal of Trauma 57 (2004):626-632. (See also: E. D. Shenassa, S. N. Catlin, S. L Buka, "Lethality of Firearms Relative to Other Suicide Methods: A Population Based Study," Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health 57 (2003): 120-124.
National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System (2008 (deaths) and 2009 (injuries). Calculations by Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.
Richardson, Erin G., and David Hemenway, "Homicide, Suicide, and Unintentional Firearm Fatality: Comparing the United States With Other High-Income Countries, 2003," Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care, published online ahead of print, June 2010
Wiebe, Douglas J. PhD. "Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated With Firearms in the Home: A National Case-Control Study," Annals of Emergency Medicine 41 (2003): 771-82.
Zimring, Franklin, and Gordon Hawkins, Crime is not the Problem: Lethal Violence in America, New York: Oxford University Press, 1997
I couldn't agree more. I'm so tired of the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" bullshit. People are killing people with no method of defense. Our current laws are beyond fucked up.
Thank you for all that information, John. I'm with ya.
Here's some more info.
http://gunvictimsaction.org/blog/2012/09/gun-fact-3-number-of-police-officers-killed-by-guns-last-22-years-u-s-1132-england-10-why/ (http://gunvictimsaction.org/blog/2012/09/gun-fact-3-number-of-police-officers-killed-by-guns-last-22-years-u-s-1132-england-10-why/)
But if everyone had a gun we could shoot the people who are shooting people, we need more guns, like the old west... :rolleyes:
You can't talk sense to gun people. Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox.
Like so many subjects in this country, you're never going to have people looking at things honestly and objectively, or look at facts, because they have an interest in a particular side (money, ideology, in-group identification, politics, so-called 'freedom', whatever). There is a foundational issue in our country, one more prevalent here than in other modern industrialized societies, and guns are just a small slice of that maladaptive pie. :cry:
I appreciate the thread JY. I was wondering how we have a civil and sane discussion about guns in our nation without the fringe elements from both sides taking over. It's a discussion deeply rooted in fear on both sides; real and imagined fears. I certainly don't want to live in a society where the only armed people are government officials and I certainly don't want to live in a society where everyone is armed. It's not an-all or-nothing argument (as a FB friend suggested that if we ban guns we will need to ban electrical cords b/c you can kill someone with an electrical cord too), it's about sanity and compromise. We don't "need" assault rifles. And as I type that, I can hear some of my more conservative friends reply, "Well, you don't 'need' a car (as another said on my FB page). Anyone know how easy at is to get a gun at a gun show or are familiar with Gun Show Background Check Act of 2009 (H.R. 2324, S. 843)? Check it out. Should it be easier to get a gun than to access and receive decent metal health counseling? It should be really hard to get a gun, but it's not. The whole issue is overwhelming to me, but if we sit back and do nothing after the murdering of children in Connecticut, then nothing will change our minds and hearts.
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 16, 2012, 04:20 PM
You can't talk sense to gun people. Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox.
You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 16, 2012, 04:20 PM
You can't talk sense to gun people. Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox.
You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.
I really want to believe this too - I think if responsible people want to own guns, they should support whatever it takes for that to not be threatened. Not just scream 2nd Amendment and from my cold dead hands bullshit.
Yes, there will always be bad people doing bad things, but let's not make it so easy for them!
Thanks for those links John
:cry: Tell it like it is ,JohnnYY! :thumbsup: :angry:
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 16, 2012, 04:20 PM
You can't talk sense to gun people. Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox.
You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.
That's good to hear. I suspect as you suggest, individuals are sometimes more sensible, but then unfortunately the issue of guns is co-mingled with other causes, to create a mindset that is resistant to hearing any views that stray from the overall orthodoxy. Indeed we all do need to have open minds, and minds willing to put aside 'our' sides conventional wisdom to judge issues objectively, based on facts and with good reason.
It just gets to be overwhelmingly frustrating, trying to discuss an issue like guns, with people who's positions are based on emotions, fear, and propaganda.
The stance of "If teachers were armed, this wouldn't happen." concerns me. I don't want to carry a weapon and I don't want to work in a building with other armed teachers. We've had weapons brought to our school. One of the shootings that occurred in the 90's happened thirty minutes away from us. One of my colleagues' wife was an intended victim who was saved only when a student walked in front of her not realizing that she was in danger. That girl died in my friend's wife's arms. However arming teachers is not the answer. Guns have no place around children. They accidentally discharge. A distraught student could take it from a teacher. It opens the door for many disastrous scenarios. I refuse to live my life in fear of what may happen. Going out in public, there are just as many opportunities for random violence. We as a nation must focus on mental illness in addition to restricting gun ownership. It shouldn't be easy to own semi automatic weapons. I support hunters, but if one needs an assault rifle to hunt, one must be rather bad at hunting.
I am not shy about my thoughts.
Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.
I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms. I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.
A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.
Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons? No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want. And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.
And we would all be beter off if they were.
Hand guns and assault weapons - normal folks have no legit reason to own one. Hunting rifles are fine. I absolutely agree with John's proposed idea (not his I realise, but he brought it up here) that gun ownership be treated EXACTLY the same as vehicle ownership/use.
At the risk of side-tracking this discussion, guns are not necessarily the only factor that needs addressing if we are looking at curtailing such incidents as we have endured this week (and at other places of over the years such as Virginia Tech and Columbine) and that is easy access to mental health services.
As a Canadian, it would not be at all hard for me to obtain a weapon. Al Simmon's Gun Shop is on one of the poshest shopping streets in my city, a 10 minute walk from my home. I firmly believe the reason mass shootings - such as happens in the US with heart breaking regularity - don't happen as much in Canada is in large part because we have socialised medicine that ensures those who ask for help get it, pretty quickly (mental health issues related to violence generally are dealt with immediately), for free. This helps us ensure that more people get treated and appropriately tracked.
As civilised societies we really should have a better way of taking care of people.
Quote from: LeanneP on Dec 16, 2012, 09:03 PM
Hand guns and assault weapons - normal folks have no legit reason to own one. Hunting rifles are fine. I absolutely agree with John's proposed idea (not his I realise, but he brought it up here) that gun ownership be treated EXACTLY the same as vehicle ownership/use.
At the risk of side-tracking this discussion, guns are not necessarily the only factor that needs addressing if we are looking at curtailing such incidents as we have endured this week (and at other places of over the years such as Virginia Tech and Columbine) and that is easy access to mental health services.
As a Canadian, it would not be at all hard for me to obtain a weapon. Al Simmon's Gun Shop is on one of the poshest shopping streets in my city, a 10 minute walk from my home. I firmly believe the reason mass shootings - such as happens in the US with heart breaking regularity - don't happen as much in Canada is in large part because we have socialised medicine that ensures those who ask for help get it, pretty quickly (mental health issues related to violence generally are dealt with immediately), for free. This helps us ensure that more people get treated and appropriately tracked.
As civilised societies we really should have a better way of taking care of people.
Yup
Quote from: LeanneP on Dec 16, 2012, 09:03 PM
I firmly believe the reason mass shootings - such as happens in the US with heart breaking regularity - don't happen as much in Canada is in large part because we have socialised medicine that ensures those who ask for help get it, pretty quickly (mental health issues related to violence generally are dealt with immediately), for free. This helps us ensure that more people get treated and appropriately tracked.
As civilised societies we really should have a better way of taking care of people.
I still believe easy access to weapons should be our main concern. Both the Va. Tech shooter and the Aurora Theater shooter had histories of receiving psychiatric treatment, so, the issue of the abiltiy to receive psychiatric services is moot. Now, were they getting quality tx? Who knows. However, both shooters were able to buy firearms. Federal and state statutes in Virginia are worded differently, so when the Va. Tech shooter voluntarily committed himself to psychiatric tx, he did not forfeit his right to buy a weapon. I just think it's too easy to buy weapons and there are so many people with a lot of money advocating for less restrictions.
And, there are a lot of factors that bring someone to the point of killing others.
You can hunt with a shotgun or a bolt action rifle, shotgun also works well for home defense, if you must have something smaller for home defense, a revolver would suffice. This criteria, by which it's difficult to see an opening for dispute (among non-zealots), no semi-automatic rifles or hand-guns should be allowed, under any circumstances. These semi-autos, both rifle and pistol, are purely for the purpose of assaulting and killing human beings: assault-rifle, it's right there in the name, and the same goes for pistols with magazines.
The argument about 'sport' shooting? Bullshit, find a new sport. Your right to sport and your guns is infringing on other peoples right to life, sport loses. That's how a civilized society works. Sure, we all want maximum freedom, but once that freedom infringes on others freedom, that's where the freedom ends in a civilized society. I don't even like hunting and don't see the sport or appeal of killing less intelligent animals with sophisticated weapons, but at least that's a point where reasonable disagreement is possible. That 'reasonable' disagreement ends with weapons specifically designed to kill mass numbers of human beings.
Of course none of this makes any difference, half the people in this country can't be reasoned with, because they are devoid of reason. They're more dangerous than the 'mentally ill', because they vote.
You are right on, John, along with the other posters.
It's time to get on top of this and reign in the nonsense. Those who drag out the tired old arguments to prevent reasonable controls have the blood of children on their hands today and of the 10s of thousands killed senselessly every year.
And the mental health problem needs to be dealt with as well as some have pointed out, along with enforcement all around. My son-in-law, who some of you met at the MPP get-together in Aug, narrowly escaped death preventing another slaughter here in MD in March of this year when a mentally ill person fired on him at almost point blank range; he eventually brought the guy down after a protracted shootout. This guy was headed to an apartment complex to fire on bunch of unsuspecting people; who knows how many he might have killed by virtue of having a gun?
Now get this. The guy barely survived but has been back on the street since Sept, free to roam anywhere with an ankle bracelet that restricts nothing. His trial is not until next April. After shooting at three cops and almost killing them, and with clear intent to harm others, this guy is back on the street while he awaits trial. Are you kidding?
We need to get serious about making our country a safer place. If we objectively look at the facts about risk where guns are concerned and compare it to other risks we control it is obvious that big changes are needed.
I work in the UK where guns are extremely hard to get. The only legal weapons are shotguns, and you require a license, proper storage, and a reason to have one (ie living on a farm / sports shooting). The only armed police are at airports and government buildings. Some criminals have guns, but it's not the norm.
I spend weekends is Spain. All police are armed, and gun ownership is more widespread, but again restricted to sporting use; it is not legal to carry a weapon.
In 2011, the US had 9 gun deaths per 100,000 of population. Spain had 0.63 per 100,000 and the UK had 0.25 per 100,000. That's a 36-fold difference in your chances of getting shot each year between the UK and the US.
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 16, 2012, 04:20 PM
You can't talk sense to gun people. Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox.
You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.
why does he need assault weapons (and multiple ones at that)? to accomplish what exactly? not trying to be snarky here, I'm really trying to understand this?
Quote from: ItBeats4Jew on Dec 17, 2012, 12:28 PM
Quote from: Tracy 2112 on Dec 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
Quote from: exist10z on Dec 16, 2012, 04:20 PM
You can't talk sense to gun people. Don't try and confuse them with those pesky facts, they know the truth, Obama is gonna come around and personally take their hunting rifles away - it has to be true, they heard it on Fox.
You can, actually. I have a friend who is very conservative Fox watcher who owns multiple assault weapons. He is totally down for more hurdles to jump over to buy weapons and believes they are too readily accessible and need harsher regulations. You can't really lump gun people all into one mindless entity; you're basically doing to them what you believe they are doing to you and nothing changes. We ALL need to have a more open mind.
why does he need assault weapons (and multiple ones at that)? to accomplish what exactly? not trying to be snarky here, I'm really trying to understand this?
Pretty sure he doesn't "need" an assault weapon, that's why he is willing to have tougher screenings to get one. It's sport to him; he enjoys it. Having served in the military, I can say there
is a rush shooting a 50mm or M-16 on automatic. I received expert marksmanship ribbon on the 9mm.
I would personally like to see assault weapons banned. I am sure there are other hobbies that would sufficiently replace it. However, like me, I am sure he doesn't want other people's irresponsible behavior to effect his rights as a safety oriented, law abiding citizen.
I do not think banning all guns is the answer.
Thanks for all the stats, JY. I've been using them on Facebook.
The best thing I think I've read is...'well after timothy mcveigh--i guess we need to ban fertilizer..'
Agree about banning handguns and assault weapons.
Rifles, I'm okay with.
Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... :grin:
I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.
I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.
The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.
I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.
One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.
Quote from: bbill on Dec 17, 2012, 01:55 PM
Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... :grin:
I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.
I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.
The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.
I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.
One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.
What the fuck is up with this civil debate about guns? This is bullshit...
Nicholas Kristof on point as usual:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-do-we-have-the-courage-to-stop-this.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-do-we-have-the-courage-to-stop-this.html?_r=0)
Quote from: headhunter on Dec 16, 2012, 06:52 PM
I am not shy about my thoughts.
Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.
I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms. I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.
A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.
Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons? No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want. And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.
And we would all be beter off if they were.
Amen.
America! Fuck yeah!
American Guns Tease | NEW Series Premiering Monday, October 10, 2011 at 10PM e/p (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKi00APG9zs#ws)
Yeah, there's like half a dozen television shows about guns either explicitely or peripherally. The glorification of firearms is disturbing. But really, the problem is much deeper, and the firearms issue is just illustrative of our collective national (juvenile) obsession with 'freedom'. The historically psychological roots of this are well known, no need to cover them here, but the idea that no freedom can be restricted, even for the good the overall society, is unrealistic in both practice and application. We accept restrictions all the time, and some who cry the loudest about freedom would quickly limit others freedoms if given the opportunity (w/ regard to behavior they personally frown upon). There has to be discussion about what is best for everyone, as a nation, and sometimes that calls for limiting freedoms. We don't, or at least haven't, do/done a particularly good job determining good reasons for freedom limitation and bad reasons for freedom limitation.
The Pats v. 49ers game was interupted for President Obama's remarks at a memorial service in CT last night. Seems he grew a pair. Let's hope he follows through.
Full Video of President Obama Speaking At Newtown Connecticut Vigil For Families of Shooting Victims (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlhlNiHQPs8#ws)
Quote from: bbill on Dec 17, 2012, 01:55 PM
Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... :grin:
I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.
I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.
The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.
I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.
One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.
I just signed up for a conceal & carry class that allows me to carry in 37 states including my own, Illinois. It WAS the last state in the Nation to NOT allow C&C. The Supreme Court just overturned the most recent ruling and the State has 180 days to draft a law allowing C&C. Chicago had a hand gun ban in place since 1982 yet there are more guns in Chicago than any other city in the country and the murder rate is a reflection of that. Realistically speaking those guns are here to stay and they are in the hands of gang bangers. The laws don't work unfortunately. Chicago is not a model to be used for future gun policies.
My family is involved in Pistol target shooting. We go to matches around the state including making the annual pilgrimage to Camp Perry Ohio for the National Championships. My Mother was a Nationally Ranked Champion in 22 & 45 until she had some health issues that no longer allow her to shoot. We have a good time doing at as family. We go to the gun club on sunday mornings and then out to breakfast afterwards. They are NRA members ( I'm not ) and we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. They believe in regulation, enforcement, stringent background check and a ban of large capacity clips or magazines. All I know is that the time to get something done is now.
Quote from: Taterbug on Dec 17, 2012, 03:34 PM
Quote from: bbill on Dec 17, 2012, 01:55 PM
Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... :grin:
I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.
I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.
The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.
I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.
One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.
I just signed up for a conceal & carry class that allows me to carry in 37 states including my own, Illinois. It WAS the last state in the Nation to NOT allow C&C. The Supreme Court just overturned the most recent ruling and the State has 180 days to draft a law allowing C&C. Chicago had a hand gun ban in place since 1982 yet there are more guns in Chicago than any other city in the country and the murder rate is a reflection of that. Realistically speaking those guns are here to stay and they are in the hands of gang bangers. The laws don't work unfortunately. Chicago is not a model to be used for future gun policies.
My family is involved in Pistol target shooting. We go to matches around the state including making the annual pilgrimage to Camp Perry Ohio for the National Championships. My Mother was a Nationally Ranked Champion in 22 & 45 until she had some health issues that no longer allow her to shoot. We have a good time doing at as family. We go to the gun club on sunday mornings and then out to breakfast afterwards. They are NRA members ( I'm not ) and we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. They believe in regulation, enforcement, stringent background check and a ban of large capacity clips or magazines. All I know is that the time to get something done is now.
:beer:
My own view from the UK, where gun ownership doesn't even enter the thoughts of most people, is that guns serve two purposes in America. The first is to make a lot of money for those who make/sell them, and the ammunition that goes with it. You blast away a hell of a lot more ammunition when discharching an automatic weapon or assault weapon and you need to replace those bullets! Get rid of some guns, or all guns, and there's a lot of profit going out of someone's pocket. The second purpose is to help convince half-witted retards that they are "free". Add it to shit TV and cheap alchohol (both of which we have here) and most people aren't really interested in real freedom or how they can make their country a better place.
Sad to say, but I believe there is just too much damn money and too much to lose politically for things to change. Soon enough the tragic loss of 27 lives will be forgotten until the next mass shooting.
As an afterthought having essentially no guns at all doesn't prevent this type of incident. There have been mass shootings over here in Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria. When someone is disturbed enough to want to kill large numbers of people they can find a way to do it.
simple facts...
(http://www.adweek.com/files/imagecache/node-blog/blogs/stop_handguns.png)
Quote from: headhunter on Dec 16, 2012, 06:52 PM
I am not shy about my thoughts.
Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.
I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms. I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.
A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.
Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons? No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want. And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.
And we would all be beter off if they were.
Well said! I own two guns both for hunting/household protection. There is NO NEED for any civilain to own an automatic weapon of any kind. You cant use them to hunt and you wouldnt want to be spraying bullets all over your house trying to stop an intruder. I would also like to see the media refrain from pasting the name and identity of these assholes everywhere. I think it is a contributing factor in these maniacs going out "in a blaze of glory". I dont often get involved in discussions of this magnitude but just wanted to speak my peace.
Quote from: Paulie_Walnuts on Dec 18, 2012, 11:33 AM
My own view from the UK, where gun ownership doesn't even enter the thoughts of most people, is that guns serve two purposes in America. The first is to make a lot of money for those who make/sell them, and the ammunition that goes with it. You blast away a hell of a lot more ammunition when discharching an automatic weapon or assault weapon and you need to replace those bullets! Get rid of some guns, or all guns, and there's a lot of profit going out of someone's pocket. The second purpose is to help convince half-witted retards that they are "free". Add it to shit TV and cheap alchohol (both of which we have here) and most people aren't really interested in real freedom or how they can make their country a better place.
Sad to say, but I believe there is just too much damn money and too much to lose politically for things to change. Soon enough the tragic loss of 27 lives will be forgotten until the next mass shooting.
As an afterthought having essentially no guns at all doesn't prevent this type of incident. There have been mass shootings over here in Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria. When someone is disturbed enough to want to kill large numbers of people they can find a way to do it.
You have a much better handle on it than many in this country. Money and pseudo freedom are two of the core issues. And you're correct, soon enough all this hype will fade and we'll be left with the same or even weaker gun laws than we have now. It happens every time. :angry:
so this is what it's come to:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/18/utah-6th-grader-takes-gun-to-school-says-parents-encouraged-him/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/18/utah-6th-grader-takes-gun-to-school-says-parents-encouraged-him/)
interesting piece on the international view of America and guns
http://news.yahoo.com/connecticut-school-massacre-world-sees-us-105500647.html (http://news.yahoo.com/connecticut-school-massacre-world-sees-us-105500647.html)
I'm convinced that if my country, Canada, didn't border the US, our gun-related fatalties would be as low as the UKs. We had around 150 deaths last year, which is still pretty low given our population is 36 million. I can tell you that we don't have the same attitude towards guns here. Heck, I don't always lock the doors to my house in downtown Toronto.
Quote from: StaggerLee on Dec 18, 2012, 12:56 PM
Quote from: headhunter on Dec 16, 2012, 06:52 PM
I am not shy about my thoughts.
Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.
I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms. I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.
A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.
Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons? No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want. And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.
And we would all be beter off if they were.
Well said! I own two guns both for hunting/household protection. There is NO NEED for any civilain to own an automatic weapon of any kind. You cant use them to hunt and you wouldnt want to be spraying bullets all over your house trying to stop an intruder. I would also like to see the media refrain from pasting the name and identity of these assholes everywhere. I think it is a contributing factor in these maniacs going out "in a blaze of glory". I dont often get involved in discussions of this magnitude but just wanted to speak my peace.
I completely agree with you both. I see nothing wrong with people having the right to own rifles used for hunting or even handguns used for protecting your home. But why in the hell is there any need to own any sort of auto or semi-auto assault rifle? Why the hell did the mother of this lunatic feel the need to own those weapons? Protection??? Yeah, they protected her so well she's now DEAD! She too probably thought she had properly stored her guns!
As for arming teachers in school? I also am not in favor of this, although, I would not be against maybe allowing the principal of the shool to be armed if there wasn't armed security on the premises. I just look to the Sandy Hook Elementary principal who was defenseless and unarmed and still lunged at the shooter to try to stop him and I think how things might have been different had he been able to defend herself with a gun?
This AM just got word that SWAT are at my boy's high school, multiple shooters were identified at another school in town (Scottsdale, Arizona), so far it sounds like no shots were fired. Kids from a middle school are being evacuated to my son's high school. That's all the info we have right now.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am appalled that anyone thinks that giving out more guns is a viable option for solving the gun crisis in America. To me, that is a hallmark of the kind of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place. America is gun-sick, of that there is no doubt.
Quote from: Shug on Dec 19, 2012, 10:39 AM
This AM just got word that SWAT are at my boy's high school, multiple shooters were identified at another school in town (Scottsdale, Arizona), so far it sounds like no shots were fired. Kids from a middle school are being evacuated to my son's high school. That's all the info we have right now.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am appalled that anyone thinks that giving out more guns is a viable option for solving the gun crisis in America. To me, that is a hallmark of the kind of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place. America is gun-sick, of that there is no doubt.
WOW! How fucking scary!! Everything ok now?
And we tell our kids how they are actually very safe, a shooting like this is so rare, etc. Then they go back to their schools thinking they are insulated and it couldn't happen to them. Our words mean nothing when there are SWAT teams showing up at school only days after this horrible tragedy!! What a nightmare.
Hope things have settled and all are safe.
Thanks, zanjam. Its all okay, this time anyway. Before school, a janitor saw an older man in a trenchcoat with a handgun. Not sure what happened, but he got away, was not apprehended. No shots were fired. Our kids are kinda freaked out, as you can imagine. I'm freaked out, I hate this stuff. I find my nerves are kinda frayed and I'm easily irritated this week. Think of what this climate of fear does to people who are already on the edge, its downright scary, with copycats out there and people sending their kids to school with guns. I'm really getting upset with this situation.
Quote from: Shug on Dec 19, 2012, 10:39 AM
This AM just got word that SWAT are at my boy's high school, multiple shooters were identified at another school in town (Scottsdale, Arizona), so far it sounds like no shots were fired. Kids from a middle school are being evacuated to my son's high school. That's all the info we have right now.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am appalled that anyone thinks that giving out more guns is a viable option for solving the gun crisis in America. To me, that is a hallmark of the kind of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place. America is gun-sick, of that there is no doubt.
Indeed. After considering all the scenarios and seeing all the statistics (legal guns, illegal guns, types of guns, suicides, homicides, crime, proper storage, sport, hunting, accidents, etc.), I have yet to hear a question where the best answer is more guns or lessened regulation. Or even the old standby 'enforce the laws we have!', much of the carnage, especially accidents, suicides, domestic homicides and mass shootings, are caused by perfectly legal guns: guns that no one would consider 'bad' and by gun owners that no one would have considered 'mentally unstable' at time of purchase.
:angry: Add to the list. :angry:
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
First Posted: December 19, 2012 - 6:16 am
BLOOMINGTON, Indiana — Police say six guns were removed from the home of a Bloomington youth who threatened a copycat school shooting, while students in two other Indiana cities have been arrested for making school violence threats
Bloomington police say the Bloomington South High School student is undergoing an evaluation after telling another student on Monday he had a gun in his locker. The Herald-Times reports police say a search found he had no weapons at school and that the seized guns didn't belong to him.
NEXT!......Not far from my friends' place.
Alabama Shakes lead singer robbed in Nashville
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Brittany Howard of the Alabama Shakes is unharmed after being robbed at gunpoint over the weekend.
Nashville police say Howard and four others that included members of the Brooklyn-based band Clear Plastic Masks were robbed Sunday night in east Nashville by two unidentified teens wearing hoodies.
Howard and the Shakes are up for three Grammy Awards in February, including best new artist, after releasing their debut album "Boys & Girls" earlier this year. A spokeswoman says the 24-year-old singer from Athens, Ala., has no comment.
The thieves were both armed with handguns and stole cellphones and a small amount of cash, but didn't harm anyone before taking off. Some of the items were found a short time later at a nearby park.
Quote from: iLikeBeer on Dec 19, 2012, 10:07 AM
Quote from: StaggerLee on Dec 18, 2012, 12:56 PM
Quote from: headhunter on Dec 16, 2012, 06:52 PM
I am not shy about my thoughts.
Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.
I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms. I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.
A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.
Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons? No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want. And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.
And we would all be beter off if they were.
Well said! I own two guns both for hunting/household protection. There is NO NEED for any civilain to own an automatic weapon of any kind. You cant use them to hunt and you wouldnt want to be spraying bullets all over your house trying to stop an intruder. I would also like to see the media refrain from pasting the name and identity of these assholes everywhere. I think it is a contributing factor in these maniacs going out "in a blaze of glory". I dont often get involved in discussions of this magnitude but just wanted to speak my peace.
I completely agree with you both. I see nothing wrong with people having the right to own rifles used for hunting or even handguns used for protecting your home. But why in the hell is there any need to own any sort of auto or semi-auto assault rifle? Why the hell did the mother of this lunatic feel the need to own those weapons? Protection??? Yeah, they protected her so well she's now DEAD! She too probably thought she had properly stored her guns!
As for arming teachers in school? I also am not in favor of this, although, I would not be against maybe allowing the principal of the shool to be armed if there wasn't armed security on the premises. I just look to the Sandy Hook Elementary principal who was defenseless and unarmed and still lunged at the shooter to try to stop him and I think how things might have been different had he been able to defend herself with a gun?
Yeah I can't get behind automatic weapons as they are intended for assault purposes as that is what they are designed for. I would however be in favor of at least one police officer at every school for added security, but wouldn't be too comfortable with the principal having a weapon on the grounds.
I think one thing that gets overlooked by reading a lot of these comments is rural america, like where I grew up outside of a small town. The closest police station was probaby 15 minutes away and with a response time even slower. Most people do own guns for home protection out of necessity as you never know what can happen. With that said living in a city now I feel no need to own a handgun, but if I lived where I was raised I probably would as a fall back plan. Granted I do come from a family with a few state troopers and military officers who taught me to shoot at a very young age.
I actually thought the NRA folks were going to suggest something helpful.
great response: https://twitter.com/davidfrum
Quote from: jaye on Dec 21, 2012, 09:52 PM
I actually thought the NRA folks were going to suggest something helpful.
great response: https://twitter.com/davidfrum
Yeah, pretty disappointing.
I thought this was the NRA's bogeyman in the first place - a tyrannical government with guns that they would have to be capable of taking down with more guns.
Have you all seen this Marine who went to stand guard outside of a school, and is now facing 5yrs in prison? I mean, sucks for him, but I'm shocked by how many people support him and MILITARY FUCKING PROTECTION outside all schools. This is mental, and terrifying.
Quote from: e_wind on Dec 22, 2012, 12:18 PM
Have you all seen this Marine who went to stand guard outside of a school, and is now facing 5yrs in prison? I mean, sucks for him, but I'm shocked by how many people support him and MILITARY FUCKING PROTECTION outside all schools. This is mental, and terrifying.
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/2012/12/21/on-video-marine-caught-lying-about-his-service/ (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/battle-rattle/2012/12/21/on-video-marine-caught-lying-about-his-service/)
yeah just what I want at my kids school. :rolleyes: Besides lying he said "if a gunman comes into this school, I'm not going to kill him, I'm going to drag him out of here and let the law deal with him". Um, ok.
As a hunter and recreational target shooter, I'm pro-gun. However, I'm all for beefing up the background checks. I firmly believe in my right to protect myself, as well as enjoy my hobby. Also, since they essentially banned guns in Chicago in 1980's the murder rate has gone up-928 in 1991 and there have been over 500 just this year (up since 2008).
It is no mystery how guns are made/operate, they have been around for hundreds of years, what would the government have gunsmiths do all over the country, simply forget their trade?
In 2010 8 kids were murdered with a knife in China, we can't ban knives? I don't think you can stop crazy/evil people with bad intentions (even the Aurora shooter had managed to wire a bomb in his apartment).
Again, I do believe we should increase background checks etc. but I think its time for people to be held accountable for their actions.
Thought this is relevant, perhaps even scary?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzJlBcCsow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzJlBcCsow)
Can't help but wonder how long before the average person is able to afford or get access to 3D printers...
WATCH: Hyper-Pro-Gun Activist's Argument Gets Destroyed By Smart Lady's Calm Decency
http://www.upworthy.com/watch-hyper-pro-gun-activists-argument-gets-destroyed-by-smart-ladys-calm-decenc?c=ufb1 (http://www.upworthy.com/watch-hyper-pro-gun-activists-argument-gets-destroyed-by-smart-ladys-calm-decenc?c=ufb1)
Working in newark makes me realize the debate is really about how outraged people get when guns leave the inner city.
I'm a bit disappointed because I can almost predict exist10z's reply to this post, and it'd be good.
This debate is almost futile. There is a well established culture of private gun ownership in this country. It is like a tattoo. I know many people, mostly old friends from high school on Facebook, that are so pro gun that nothing will convince them that any more control over guns is anything less that the government taking control, and leaving them vulnerable to the governments control. The argument they will give about automatic weapons and high capacity clips is reenforce by the media, whether it be The Walking Dead, or some imagined totalitarian state where they need defense from their own government. The latter is far more realistic, but in my mind does not justify the risk of human killing machines being available to anyone who wants them. I am 51, have never owned a gun, but am considering purchasing a Henry .22 lever action rifle. It is not due to paranoia about the government, if they are really trying to kill me, I give up. It is not for home protection, the stats verify it is more likely to end in a tragedy than "killing the bad guys". It would be because I find it to be a work of art and a tool for enjoyment. I also would rather teach my sons about gun safety and responsibility, than them going out and just buying something on their own without any training. Plus, if the Zombie Apocalypse does happen, I will pick off a few, before I become some brainless creatures dinner. The bottom line is this country is VERY split on this subject, and whatever actions, or inaction, are taken, at least 40% of the population is going to be pissed. that is why I feel this problem is not going to be resolved in our lifetime. Comprehensive background checks and restrictions on clip capacity are fucking no brainers. One set of the 40% may not have a brain.
As far as the mental health aspect of this issue goes, it is a red herring. I have 30 years experience in the mental health field. The last 22 years as a crisis evaluator for involuntary psychiatric admissions. The guy in Tucson fits the best profile for involuntary confinement, because he was clearly nuts, but there is NO LAW AGAINST BEING CRAZY IN ANY STATE. You have to be determined to be a threat due to mental illness, and these killers don't show their hand. The real facts are there are 300 million people in this country, a significant percentage have mental illness, like at least 10 million, and their is no possible way to prevent these instances of violence from happening by mental health screenings. The only involuntary treatment available is if someone meets state regulated criteria for danger to self (suicidal), danger to others due to mental illness( not criminal intent), and gravely disabled due to mental illness, which is extraordinarily subjective. No one I know in my field knows exactly what better mental health care availability as being a factor in helping to prevent these tragedies from happening really means. If someone is able to function enough to keep themselves from being forcibly hospitalized, they can do whatever they choose. Bottom line is gun control restrictions, as well as more mental health options (but just what are they?) are both required, but both of these are very sensitive and volatile issues. P.S. The MMJ video from Austin 2003 rocks!!
My solution is to ignore it. It always seems to be a cry for attention/revenge to get people to see how the shooter was wronged. Notice we keep getting spikes while we keep paying attention. These people are trolls.
Compare to my experience in Newark and surrounding areas. Kids typically have unlimited access to guns (with extended mags and special bullets) and are no stranger to violence (despite NJ having the second most restrictive gun laws in the country). Why don't we see school shootings in these areas? True, we see many out of school shootings, often by young kids (google "Schoolyard Slayings"). Yes, we often write it off as "more ghetto violence", but the way I see i, either we only care when it hits the suburbs, or "gun control" is a straw man put forth by people who forget how poorly any sort of commodity or product prohibition is. As a result, we solve nothing by focusing on the wrong issues.