The Gun Debate

[pawpaw]

Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... 

I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.

I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.

The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.

I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.

One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.   

[Tracy 2112]

Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... 

I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.

I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.

The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.

I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.

One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.   

What the fuck is up with this civil debate about guns? This is bullshit...

[ItBeats4Jew]

Nicholas Kristof on point as usual:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-do-we-have-the-courage-to-stop-this.html?_r=0

[tdb810]

I am not shy about my thoughts.

Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.

I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms.  I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.

A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.

Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons?  No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want.  And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.

And we would all be beter off if they were.

Amen.

[Tracy 2112]

America! Fuck yeah!

American Guns Tease | NEW Series Premiering Monday, October 10, 2011 at 10PM e/p

[exist10z]

Yeah, there's like half a dozen television shows about guns either explicitely or peripherally.  The glorification of firearms is disturbing.  But really, the problem is much deeper, and the firearms issue is just illustrative of our collective national (juvenile) obsession with 'freedom'.  The historically psychological roots of this are well known, no need to cover them here, but the idea that no freedom can be restricted, even for the good the overall society, is unrealistic in both practice and application.  We accept restrictions all the time, and some who cry the loudest about freedom would quickly limit others freedoms if given the opportunity (w/ regard to behavior they personally frown upon).  There has to be discussion about what is best for everyone, as a nation, and sometimes that calls for limiting freedoms.  We don't, or at least haven't, do/done a particularly good job determining good reasons for freedom limitation and bad reasons for freedom limitation.

[johnnYYac]

The Pats v. 49ers game was interupted for President Obama's remarks at a memorial service in CT last night.  Seems he grew a pair.  Let's hope he follows through.

Full Video of President Obama Speaking At Newtown Connecticut Vigil For Families of Shooting Victims

[Taterbug]

Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... 

I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.

I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.

The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.

I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.

One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.   

I just signed up for a conceal & carry class that allows me to carry in 37 states including my own, Illinois. It WAS the last state in the Nation to NOT allow C&C.  The Supreme Court just overturned the most recent ruling and the State has 180 days to draft a law allowing C&C.  Chicago had a hand gun ban in place since 1982 yet there are more guns in Chicago than any other city in the country and the murder rate is a reflection of that. Realistically speaking those guns are here to stay and they are in the hands of gang bangers.  The laws don't work unfortunately.  Chicago is not a model to be used for future gun policies. 
        My family is involved in Pistol target shooting. We go to matches around the state including making the annual pilgrimage to Camp Perry Ohio for the National Championships. My Mother was a Nationally Ranked Champion in 22 & 45 until she had some health issues that no longer allow her to shoot.  We have a good time doing at as family.  We go to the gun club on sunday mornings and then out to breakfast afterwards.  They are NRA members ( I'm not ) and we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. They believe in regulation, enforcement,  stringent background check and a  ban of large capacity clips or magazines.  All I know is that the time to get something done is now. 

[pawpaw]

Well, exist10z already thinks I'm a Republican, so I'll offer my point of view... 

I'm a gun owner, and a hunter. I also think shooting for sport is great fun.

I'm a parent. I store my guns properly, and will absolutely teach my kids how to handle a gun safely.

The shooting in CT was heartbreaking.

I have no problem making it very difficult to purchase guns. Other than the insurance, I agree with the points that John suggested in the opening post's graphic (most of them are already requirements in CA). Civilians don't need fully automatic assault rifles, and they should be banned.

One of the problems is that "we're" gun people. Not you guys apparently, but lots of Americans love guns, or think they need guns, even idiots and evil ones. The more guns that are banned, the larger the black market that will be created to supply them. Banning semi-automatic handguns sounds good (really, who needs one?), but I'd rather have those guns sold with background checks and licensing than by a criminal. Make it difficult to buy and keep that handgun, legally.   

I just signed up for a conceal & carry class that allows me to carry in 37 states including my own, Illinois. It WAS the last state in the Nation to NOT allow C&C.  The Supreme Court just overturned the most recent ruling and the State has 180 days to draft a law allowing C&C.  Chicago had a hand gun ban in place since 1982 yet there are more guns in Chicago than any other city in the country and the murder rate is a reflection of that. Realistically speaking those guns are here to stay and they are in the hands of gang bangers.  The laws don't work unfortunately.  Chicago is not a model to be used for future gun policies. 
        My family is involved in Pistol target shooting. We go to matches around the state including making the annual pilgrimage to Camp Perry Ohio for the National Championships. My Mother was a Nationally Ranked Champion in 22 & 45 until she had some health issues that no longer allow her to shoot.  We have a good time doing at as family.  We go to the gun club on sunday mornings and then out to breakfast afterwards.  They are NRA members ( I'm not ) and we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. They believe in regulation, enforcement,  stringent background check and a  ban of large capacity clips or magazines.  All I know is that the time to get something done is now.

[Paulie_Walnuts]

My own view from the UK, where gun ownership doesn't even enter the thoughts of most people, is that guns serve two purposes in America. The first is to make a lot of money for those who make/sell them, and the ammunition that goes with it. You blast away a hell of a lot more ammunition when discharching an automatic weapon or assault weapon and you need to replace those bullets! Get rid of some guns, or all guns, and there's a lot of profit going out of someone's pocket. The second purpose is to help convince half-witted retards that they are "free". Add it to shit TV and cheap alchohol (both of which we have here) and most people aren't really interested in real freedom or how they can make their country a better place.

Sad to say, but I believe there is just too much damn money and too much to lose politically for things to change. Soon enough the tragic loss of 27 lives will be forgotten until the next mass shooting.

As an afterthought having essentially no guns at all doesn't prevent this type of incident. There have been mass shootings over here in Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria. When someone is disturbed enough to want to kill large numbers of people they can find a way to do it.

[walterfredo]

simple facts...

[StaggerLee]

I am not shy about my thoughts.

Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.

I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms.  I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.

A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.

Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons?  No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want.  And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.

And we would all be beter off if they were.

Well said!  I own two guns both for hunting/household protection.  There is NO NEED for any civilain to own an automatic weapon of any kind.  You cant use them to hunt and you wouldnt want to be spraying bullets all over your house trying to stop an intruder.  I would also like to see the media refrain from pasting the name and identity of these assholes everywhere.  I think it is a contributing factor in these maniacs going out "in a blaze of glory".  I dont often get involved in discussions of this magnitude but just wanted to speak my peace.

[exist10z]

My own view from the UK, where gun ownership doesn't even enter the thoughts of most people, is that guns serve two purposes in America. The first is to make a lot of money for those who make/sell them, and the ammunition that goes with it. You blast away a hell of a lot more ammunition when discharching an automatic weapon or assault weapon and you need to replace those bullets! Get rid of some guns, or all guns, and there's a lot of profit going out of someone's pocket. The second purpose is to help convince half-witted retards that they are "free". Add it to shit TV and cheap alchohol (both of which we have here) and most people aren't really interested in real freedom or how they can make their country a better place.

Sad to say, but I believe there is just too much damn money and too much to lose politically for things to change. Soon enough the tragic loss of 27 lives will be forgotten until the next mass shooting.

As an afterthought having essentially no guns at all doesn't prevent this type of incident. There have been mass shootings over here in Hungerford, Dunblane and Cumbria. When someone is disturbed enough to want to kill large numbers of people they can find a way to do it.

You have a much better handle on it than many in this country.  Money and pseudo freedom are two of the core issues.  And you're correct, soon enough all this hype will fade and we'll be left with the same or even weaker gun laws than we have now.  It happens every time.

[ItBeats4Jew]

so this is what it's come to:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/18/utah-6th-grader-takes-gun-to-school-says-parents-encouraged-him/

[Shug]

interesting piece on the international view of America and guns

http://news.yahoo.com/connecticut-school-massacre-world-sees-us-105500647.html

[Jaimoe]

I'm convinced that if my country, Canada, didn't border the US, our gun-related fatalties would be as low as the UKs. We had around 150 deaths last year, which is still pretty low given our population is 36 million. I can tell you that we don't have the same attitude towards guns here. Heck, I don't always lock the doors to my house in downtown Toronto. 

[iLikeBeer]

I am not shy about my thoughts.

Regardless of one's views on the 2nd Amendment, I do not believe there is any legitimate reason why ordinary citizens should be able to purchase assault weapons.

I don't have a problem with the right to bear arms.  I do have an issue with what arms people have the right to bear.

A hunting rifle, weapons to protect one's home and family, fine.

Nukes, cannons, heat-seeking missles, military-style assault weapons?  No, people do not have the right to buy any weapon they want.  And if our political so-called leaders weren't so afraid of the NRA, these things would be banned.

And we would all be beter off if they were.

Well said!  I own two guns both for hunting/household protection.  There is NO NEED for any civilain to own an automatic weapon of any kind.  You cant use them to hunt and you wouldnt want to be spraying bullets all over your house trying to stop an intruder.  I would also like to see the media refrain from pasting the name and identity of these assholes everywhere.  I think it is a contributing factor in these maniacs going out "in a blaze of glory".  I dont often get involved in discussions of this magnitude but just wanted to speak my peace.

I completely agree with you both.  I see nothing wrong with people having the right to own rifles used for hunting or even handguns used for protecting your home.  But why in the hell is there any need to own any sort of auto or semi-auto assault rifle?  Why the hell did the mother of this lunatic feel the need to own those weapons?  Protection???  Yeah, they protected her so well she's now DEAD!  She too probably thought she had properly stored her guns!

As for arming teachers in school?  I also am not in favor of this, although, I would not be against maybe allowing the principal of the shool to be armed if there wasn't armed security on the premises.  I just look to the Sandy Hook Elementary principal who was defenseless and unarmed and still lunged at the shooter to try to stop him and I think how things might have been different had he been able to defend herself with a gun?

[Shug]

This AM just got word that SWAT are at my boy's high school, multiple shooters were identified at another school in town (Scottsdale, Arizona), so far it sounds like no shots were fired.  Kids from a middle school are being evacuated to my son's high school.  That's all the info we have right now.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am appalled that anyone thinks that giving out more guns is a viable option for solving the gun crisis in America.  To me, that is a hallmark of the kind of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place.  America is gun-sick, of that there is no doubt.

[zanjam]

This AM just got word that SWAT are at my boy's high school, multiple shooters were identified at another school in town (Scottsdale, Arizona), so far it sounds like no shots were fired.  Kids from a middle school are being evacuated to my son's high school.  That's all the info we have right now.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am appalled that anyone thinks that giving out more guns is a viable option for solving the gun crisis in America.  To me, that is a hallmark of the kind of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place.  America is gun-sick, of that there is no doubt.

WOW!  How fucking scary!!  Everything ok now? 

And we tell our kids how they are actually very safe, a shooting like this is so rare, etc. Then they go back to their schools thinking they are insulated and it couldn't happen to them.  Our words mean nothing when there are SWAT teams showing up at school only days after this horrible tragedy!!  What a nightmare. 

Hope things have settled and all are safe.

[Shug]

Thanks, zanjam.  Its all okay, this time anyway.  Before school, a janitor saw an older man in a trenchcoat with a handgun.  Not sure what happened, but he got away, was not apprehended.  No shots were fired.  Our kids are kinda freaked out, as you can imagine.  I'm freaked out, I hate this stuff.  I find my nerves are kinda frayed and I'm easily irritated this week.  Think of what this climate of fear does to people who are already on the edge, its downright scary, with copycats out there and people sending their kids to school with guns.  I'm really getting upset with this situation.