Just for fun wanted to get everyone's take on this topic. My friends and I had a very intense conversation at around 3 AM after a long night of Manhattans.
I made the case that Steam Engine and Dondante are MMJ's two most epic tunes, their masterpieces if you will, what November Rain and Estranged were to Guns and Roses.
The question was which is the more epic tune, studio or live?
My answer for both was Steam Engine, the song puts me in another world just a beautiful piece of music in everyway possible. I still love Dondante but not at the same level as SE.
My friends all went against me and went Dondante, I think the recent version we saw at Bonnaroo helped persuade their decision a bit.
Anyway, what is the consensus around here? Or better question, is there an additional tune that should be included in the discussion? PWW or Strangulation maybe? I personally wouldn't put either at the level of SE or Dondante but I can see if they join the debate.
And just for the record both songs are incredible, this isn't a competition just curious of preference.
I think the one thing we'd all agree on is that live, in the moment, is the best way to take in any Jacket tune. Any Waterfall song is a perfect example if you've had the chance to see them recently.
As for the main topic, this is where everyone could have their own choice. Especially if we're talking from a personal live experience. I still remember the first time I saw SE live. I felt like I was floating.
My pick to add to this would be Run Thru, the full version. It's a song that has always hit me a little differently than others. And when I have seen it live, it takes me somewhere else completely.
Both parts of Touch Me played consecutively was pretty epic in it's own way as well.
Again, it's all about everyone's preferences, and more importantly, the time and place witnessed.
I'd love to hear more people's opinions.
That sounds like a conversation that we might have over a few bourbons...
Here's my two cents...
First, don't sleep on Don't Cry in that GNR epic song comparison!
Second, I think the consensus would easily be those two songs...they were epic and large in birth and have only grown since then as they mature in the live setting. I, personally, side on the Steam Engine for the answer to both questions.
Now, I would add in the recent version of Touch Me Pt 2 to the live epic and also suggest I Will Sing You Songs be added as a consideration (the Don't Cry of this thing - see what I did there?) as one that is both epic in the studio version and live setting.
Quote from: parkervb on Aug 03, 2015, 03:24 PM
That sounds like a conversation that we might have over a few bourbons...
Here's my two cents...
First, don't sleep on Don't Cry in that GNR epic song comparison!
Second, I think the consensus would easily be those two songs...they were epic and large in birth and have only grown since then as they mature in the live setting. I, personally, side on the Steam Engine for the answer to both questions.
Now, I would add in the recent version of Touch Me Pt 2 to the live epic and also suggest I Will Sing You Songs be added as a consideration (the Don't Cry of this thing - see what I did there?) as one that is both epic in the studio version and live setting.
Don't Cry is a great tune but Epic? I'm not sure I agree. Just doesn't have the same layers as Estranged or November Rain... I'd also probably add Coma to the GnR discussion although less known then the other tunes I originally brought up in comparison.
I kind of feel the same way with I Will Sing you Songs, great tune, just doesn't have the depth (in my opinion) to strike that "masterpiece" level.
Run Thru was originally in my consideration and came up during my friendly argument, but the live version and studio versions are kind of similar, they also tend to cut the live version short or just play the ending which kind of automatically eliminates it from the running.
Touch Me Part 2 is great live, personally studio wise I enjoy 1 more, live I enjoy 2 more.. but still not sure if i'd add Part 2 to the same level as Dondante or SE.. If Dondante and SE are Tier 1, it'd put Part 2 and Run Thru Tier 1.A
Here is a curveball, and actually another one I brought up that night. I think in another few years Tropics will get added to the "Epic" song discussion. The live version of the song is already amazing, I think in a few years it enters the world of being something truly special.. It definitely gave me chills at Bonnaroo.
i guess the crux of this is how "epic" is defined.
I am going to go out on a limb here and keep it 100 as the kids say: I think Dondante has gotten too "epic". (insert audible gasps)
The 20+ minute versions are too aimless for my taste.
Today.........Steam Engine ......tomorrow......??
I don't know if I could pick. I will say the following tunes are all considered the "epics" in my mind and I will take any of them every night
Steam Engine
Dondante
Strangulation
I Will Sing You Songs
War Begun
I Think I'm Going to Hell
Phone Went West
I think the 2011 lollapalooza version of Dondante forever put that at the top of my list. However steam engine is not far behind. They both have two very different "atmospheres" if that makes sense. I enjoy the shreddin on Dondante more, but I prefer the atmosphere of Steam engine.
Steam Engine
/thread
Steam Engine in any form is my favorite song of all time. It gives the feeling of that 10 minutes after sex where you semi doze off and feel like you are floating in the clouds. Snoregasm. Exceptionally beautiful tune. Dondonte is not far behind. More chills, less float.
Your skin looks good in moonlight
And goddamn those shaky knees
The fact that my heart's beating
Is all the proof you need
Steam Engine is the best song I have ever heard.
Have been contemplating getting "the fact that my heart's beating is all the proof you need" tattoed on me for a while now...
But, if you must, I would add Touch Me Pt 2 to this discussion.
Great topic and 2 great songs to debate over.
They are both on the top of my list... But have to go with Steam.
It's my all time favorite.
Would definitely put PWW in that discussion as well.
Quote from: dookie shoot bandit on Aug 03, 2015, 11:09 PM
Great topic and 2 great songs to debate over.
They are both on the top of my list... But have to go with Steam.
It's my all time favorite.
Would definitely put PWW in that discussion as well.
I agree. PWW should be added to the list.
Out of the other two though, I'd pick Dondante.
I think Steam Engine is a better song. Only reason right now I'd say I would rather hear Dondante live more is that I have only heard it one time live and it was in 2008. I have heard Steam Engine at nearly every show I've seen, which is just fine with me :) .
For the record, I like Phone Went West just slightly better than either.
I think we can all agree that any MMJ song is a masterpiece... But I would have to go with Dondante over Steam Engine here.
One of my favorite qualities about MMJ is their ability to convey such deep emotion to the point where each song has its own colors and moves me to the point of tears.
Dondante is the best example of this in my opinion... Just how in different stages of the song you can feel the different stages of mourning that Jim has experienced... Denial, depression, desperation, anger, and eventually acceptance.
The Okonokos version gets me every time- never have I listened to a recording and felt such powerful raw emotions pouring out of a guitar solo.
I've only seen Dondante live once (at Bonnaroo) and it was the most surreal thing ever... So much energy flowing between 50,000 people, all coming from Jim pouring his heart out over something that has very deep meaning to him (and others)
Whenever I'm having a rough day I get out my saxophone, put on Dondante from Okonokos and jam along with the boys... Always a transcendental experience for me
Quote from: johnnYYac on Aug 03, 2015, 09:24 PM
Your skin looks good in moonlight
And goddamn those shaky knees
The fact that my heart's beating
Is all the proof you need
This. 1,000 times over.
Or maybe War Begun...
Quote from: Nepthys on Aug 04, 2015, 11:43 AM
Quote from: johnnYYac on Aug 03, 2015, 09:24 PM
Your skin looks good in moonlight
And goddamn those shaky knees
The fact that my heart's beating
Is all the proof you need
This. 1,000 times over.
A million times over!!
That verse gets me every time!!! Whether at the show... Or in the car... Every version of the song.
GOD DAMN THOSE SHAKY KNEES!
This is why this band is so amazing!!!
You can have friendly (heated) debates (arguments) about a list of songs...
Steam vs Dondante
PWW vs Touch Me or 2
Lowdown vs Dancefloors
Mahgeetah vs Lay Low
Off the Record vs Tropics
The Bear vs IWSYS
War Begun vs Gideon
Anytime vs Run Thru
And so on and so on... Etc. etc..
Just such electrifying music!!!!
Well, I've seen Dondante every time I've seen them and I love it every time.
But I saw them play Steam Engine at Bonnaroo 2008 and I was talking to God during that song, so there's that.
Quote from: dookie shoot bandit on Aug 04, 2015, 02:20 PM
This is why this band is so amazing!!!
You can have friendly (heated) debates (arguments) about a list of songs...
Steam vs Dondante
PWW vs Touch Me or 2
Lowdown vs Dancefloors
Mahgeetah vs Lay Low
Off the Record vs Tropics
The Bear vs IWSYS
War Begun vs Gideon
Anytime vs Run Thru
And so on and so on... Etc. etc..
Just such electrifying music!!!!
This list is like the cruelest 'would you rather' I have ever seen
Live: Steam Engine
Studio: Dondante
Keep in mind I've never seen either song live in person, just going off of numerous tapings I've listened to, the easiest and most obvious example being 04 Bonnaroo. Even with the recording being crap, which wasn't the taper's fault - you have to consider what was going on at the time - it still feels epic as [expletive deleted]. Even without being there, listening to the entire show, you still get the sense that the band was interacting with nature, or had somehow summoned a summer thunderstorm with music. I was in tears the first time I heard it.
On the other hand, the studio version of Steam Engine is alright, but peanuts compared to Dondante. I'd say it's one of the greatest moments captured in a recording studio ever, by any band, in any discography. Pure, raw... I can't use words to describe it.
Quote from: johnnYYac on Aug 03, 2015, 09:24 PM
Your skin looks good in moonlight
And goddamn those shaky knees
The fact that my heart's beating
Is all the proof you need
Probably some of the best lyrics Yim EVER penned...!
:thumbsup:
Both are Top 10 MMJ songs for me but I'll go with Steam Engine.
Discovering Dondante was one of the songs that converted me from a casual fan to a engaged fan. Steam Engine transitioned me from an engaged fan to a "this is one of the best live bands of all-time and I need to see them every chance I get!"
Steam engine for the win. For all the reasons everyone has said. I like a good buildup and release. The verse quoted above is way more fun than dondante, which has the "you had me worried"
Ps I love PWW too but not wild about how it has evolved over the past few years. I don't like the flavor of the end jam as much as they used to do
Quote from: mahg33ta on Aug 05, 2015, 01:26 PM
Ps I love PWW too but not wild about how it has evolved over the past few years. I don't like the flavor of the end jam as much as they used to do
I agree. The best PWW I have heard in 30+ shows (about half with PWWs) was in 2008 in Philly.
I'm a Steam man.
Quote from: GO4IT on Aug 05, 2015, 11:28 PM
Quote from: mahg33ta on Aug 05, 2015, 01:26 PM
Ps I love PWW too but not wild about how it has evolved over the past few years. I don't like the flavor of the end jam as much as they used to do
I agree. The best PWW I have heard in 30+ shows (about half with PWWs) was in 2008 in Philly.
Festival pier?
I honestly feel like Rollin Back doesn't get nearly enough credit. Maybe not "epic" in the traditional sense but just an unbelievable song studio or live. One of my favorites by any band
Dondante is it for me. Steam Engine is amazing. No doubt. Just Dondante moves me everytime I listen to it. Off the new album, Like A River has that same impact. Perhaps its just me but I love that song. Anyways, good debate/discussion to be had as both are epic in their on rights.
Quote from: dookie shoot bandit on Aug 06, 2015, 08:53 AM
Quote from: GO4IT on Aug 05, 2015, 11:28 PM
Quote from: mahg33ta on Aug 05, 2015, 01:26 PM
Ps I love PWW too but not wild about how it has evolved over the past few years. I don't like the flavor of the end jam as much as they used to do
I agree. The best PWW I have heard in 30+ shows (about half with PWWs) was in 2008 in Philly.
Festival pier?
Yup. And I have it on my channel if you'd like to relive it.
Steam Engine, although I think PWW is on that plateau as well.
Wow... after hearing Steam Engine again last night in Nashville it's gaining ground on Dondante in my book!
"The fact that my heart's beating
Is all the proof you need"
Got some major chills when this line was sung!
Phone Went West @ Red Rocks on August 4th, 2012 was the best song they have ever played live.
DONDONTE vs. Steam Engine, for me, is like asking if you wanna drink water or breath?
Gotta do both to live. Please don't make me choose :) :thumbsup:
Quote from: parkervb on Aug 03, 2015, 03:24 PM
That sounds like a conversation that we might have over a few bourbons...
Here's my two cents...
First, don't sleep on Don't Cry in that GNR epic song comparison!
I would submit Coma and The Garden as candidates as well, though I think Estranged is head and shoulders above them (and November Rain). As an aside, how perfect is So Fine leading into Estranged? The Illusions are littered with excellence. I can't remember the last time I had Appetite on, but the Illusions find their way into my rotation stupid often.
I have a much harder time choosing between Steam Engine and Dodante- they're as even as it gets. If live versions can be thrown in for consideration, I think Steam Engine would be my choice, based on what happened in Port Chester.
Quote from: WinstonLegthigh on Aug 11, 2015, 09:50 AM
Quote from: parkervb on Aug 03, 2015, 03:24 PM
That sounds like a conversation that we might have over a few bourbons...
Here's my two cents...
First, don't sleep on Don't Cry in that GNR epic song comparison!
I would submit Coma and The Garden as candidates as well, though I think Estranged is head and shoulders above them (and November Rain). As an aside, how perfect is So Fine leading into Estranged? The Illusions are littered with excellence. I can't remember the last time I had Appetite on, but the Illusions find their way into my rotation stupid often.
I have a much harder time choosing between Steam Engine and Dodante- they're as even as it gets. If live versions can be thrown in for consideration, I think Steam Engine would be my choice, based on what happened in Port Chester.
damn! beat me to Coma!
Quote from: jo_mama on Aug 07, 2015, 02:51 PM
Phone Went West @ Red Rocks on August 4th, 2012 was the best song they have ever played live.
EXACTLY!!!! one of the greatest things we'll ever see the band do!
I'm obsessed with both, and considering i've seen them once and haven't seen either Steam Engine or Dondante, I'm kinda hankering for both. What do I lean to more? STEAM ENGINE...right now i'm listening to the 8/17/2012 Mann Center version and holy shit...its melting my face....there's so many damn inspired versions of Steam Engine but for every perfect Dondante there's one that gets lost in the harmonizer pedal antics, although they sound cool still
GREAT DEBATE!
BTW, the Phone Went West's of 2012 were the peak of that song, and im privileged to have seen Phone Went West two nights before that Red Rocks version and its pretty much the same, it gives me chills
Quote from: Lonndown27 on Aug 11, 2015, 02:38 PM
Quote from: WinstonLegthigh on Aug 11, 2015, 09:50 AM
Quote from: parkervb on Aug 03, 2015, 03:24 PM
That sounds like a conversation that we might have over a few bourbons...
Here's my two cents...
First, don't sleep on Don't Cry in that GNR epic song comparison!
I would submit Coma and The Garden as candidates as well, though I think Estranged is head and shoulders above them (and November Rain). As an aside, how perfect is So Fine leading into Estranged? The Illusions are littered with excellence. I can't remember the last time I had Appetite on, but the Illusions find their way into my rotation stupid often.
I have a much harder time choosing between Steam Engine and Dodante- they're as even as it gets. If live versions can be thrown in for consideration, I think Steam Engine would be my choice, based on what happened in Port Chester.
damn! beat me to Coma!
Beat you both, I brought up Coma 4th reply in!
Both are perfect. If I went to an mmj show and they only played Steam Engine, Dondante, and Phone Went West and then left I would be happy. If I had to pick one, I'd go with Steam Engine any day....although they are both 10/10.
First tier:
STEAM ENGINE
DONDANTE
RUN THRU
PHONE WENT WEST
WAR BEGUN
COBRA
Second Tier:
OBH
MAHGEETAH
TOUCH ME PT. II
VICTORY DANCE
I WILL SING YOU SONGS
STRANGULATION!
am i close??
I started this thread, said I was a Steam Engine guy but have the '08 Bonnaroo Dondante on right now (first time listening to it) and it's absolutely perfect.. Not saying I'm switching sides but now its damn close.
For those who haven't heard this version yet please make it appoint to do so today.
Quote from: Lonndown27 on Aug 11, 2015, 02:45 PM
GREAT DEBATE!
BTW, the Phone Went West's of 2012 were the peak of that song, and im privileged to have seen Phone Went West two nights before that Red Rocks version and its pretty much the same, it gives me chills
it is a fun debate! I have heard the 2012 versions many times and for me, I prefer the older versions. But that's what makes music so fascinating. I feel like it's more blissed out mellow ending when before (Quaid era) it was hard hitting.
Quote from: Jbpats on Aug 13, 2015, 07:25 AM
I started this thread, said I was a Steam Engine guy but have the '08 Bonnaroo Dondante on right now (first time listening to it) and it's absolutely perfect.. Not saying I'm switching sides but now its damn close.
For those who haven't heard this version yet please make it appoint to do so today.
Check out Dondante from Port Chester 2012. It's ridiculous!
I'm not taking sides in this debate except I wanted to say that's it's these two songs that stand out in length, variety of jam, etc......whatever one thinks of in regards to "epic." It's hard to add Run Thru (although it's my favorite live), War Begun, etc to this conversation as that changes the original posts' debate. It doesn't make the debate less fun....just different and requiring more time and thought.
My vote goes to Steam Engine only because it pairs nicely with one of my favorite beverages, the Squirt Engine.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Squirt+engine
Quote from: APR on Aug 13, 2015, 06:06 PM
Quote from: Jbpats on Aug 13, 2015, 07:25 AM
I started this thread, said I was a Steam Engine guy but have the '08 Bonnaroo Dondante on right now (first time listening to it) and it's absolutely perfect.. Not saying I'm switching sides but now its damn close.
For those who haven't heard this version yet please make it appoint to do so today.
Check out Dondante from Port Chester 2012. It's ridiculous!
I'm not taking sides in this debate except I wanted to say that's it's these two songs that stand out in length, variety of jam, etc......whatever one thinks of in regards to "epic." It's hard to add Run Thru (although it's my favorite live), War Begun, etc to this conversation as that changes the original posts' debate. It doesn't make the debate less fun....just different and requiring more time and thought.
the PC12 Dondante is actually one of the versions of Dondate that is too "epic" for my taste. I feel it just kinda meandered a bit (what was it, like 25+ minutes? i was there and I thought it was too long). The Okonokos Dondante is peak.
I agree....love the okonokos Dondante. I love okonokos in general....especially on vinyl with the inclusion of strangulation.
I think Okonokos is the perfect summary of MMJ's first phase....the four original albums the way they should be heard, live. I am always sad though that Phone Went West didn't make it on. :(
Quote from: Nikkogino on Aug 14, 2015, 12:26 PM
I agree....love the okonokos Dondante. I love okonokos in general....especially on vinyl with the inclusion of strangulation.
I think Okonokos is the perfect summary of MMJ's first phase....the four original albums the way they should be heard, live. I am always sad though that Phone Went West didn't make it on. :(
me fuckin too! i mean they filmed and recorded everything they played those two nights and why didnt they put everything in one ? both nights? I dunno, Okonokos was amazing as it was, and I've ALWAYS loved the versions on there, How Do You Know is DEFINITIVE , I WIll Sing You Songs is definitive in my mind, like THE version...so fucking magical...takes me to these places every time.
Steam Engine totally gets my vote but christ I love Dondante.
Ill make a point to check Bonnaroo 2008's Dondante at once!
Good god...Red Rocks was fucking insanity...2012 and now 2015...both just outrageous moments of magic for this perfect band..both landmark moments, like Earls 75 or La Forum 1970,1977 etc for Zeppelin
ok......that Bonnaroo 2008 Dondante is like.........HOLY XMASFUCKGOD
its endless fun to play!!! this was my first run through after looking up the chords , i think posted on ultimate guitar by our friend on the forum hendo, at least it said transcribed by hendo on the page on ultimate guitar. I get off at 2 places but meh, its all good, it was so fun to play, anyone who plays guitar I encourag you to look up the chords and practice along to live MMJ versions of Steam! Its so much fun!! my Les Paul should be in the right channel
gear: fender mini twin, Big Muff Russian fuzz, digitech processor (used for smooth distortion), MXR Phase 90 (modified), EHX Small Clone, MXR Carbon Copy, Crybaby Pearly White Lim. Edishhhh and my Les Paul
Steam Engine forever (notice the avatar). I have loved Steam Engine for years and, it just has so much personal meaning to me. I still remember the exact moment it became my favorite jacket song. I was driving around late at night, deeply upset about something, and it was reeeally dark out, only the orange glow from the street lamps. I was listening to It Still Moves and Steam Engine started, and though I had listened to it many times before, in that moment, it just hit me in some way I'll never forget (clearly, years later I can still see myself in the car and remember that moment). It stirred something up in me, spoke clearly to me, and years and years, not to mention several albums later, it's still my favorite and always will be.
I haven't posted on here in four years!
Quote from: JxD1903 on Aug 17, 2015, 08:57 PM
Steam Engine forever (notice the avatar). I have loved Steam Engine for years and, it just has so much personal meaning to me. I still remember the exact moment it became my favorite jacket song. I was driving around late at night, deeply upset about something, and it was reeeally dark out, only the orange glow from the street lamps. I was listening to It Still Moves and Steam Engine started, and though I had listened to it many times before, in that moment, it just hit me in some way I'll never forget (clearly, years later I can still see myself in the car and remember that moment). It stirred something up in me, spoke clearly to me, and years and years, not to mention several albums later, it's still my favorite and always will be.
I haven't posted on here in four years!
WELCOME BACK BRO!
Really dig your post because that moment just happened for me within the last couple days...there's something about the way the Steam Engine at Red Rocks 2015 was starting, the way his voice sang "at leaaaast not to meeeeee" it was just...id heard and loved the song a billion trillion fucking times but it just hit me right there....wow...this is it...this is as good as music gets.... :beer:
(https://professormortis.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/gvm.jpg)
steam engine.
although, i have no preference if heard live; both songs are fueled by a tangible emotion that create a unique and memorable experience.
I think this whole matter should be resolved via an arm wrestling match or who lasts the longest in a steam room!
Quote from: Lonndown27 on Aug 18, 2015, 05:47 AM
Quote from: JxD1903 on Aug 17, 2015, 08:57 PM
Steam Engine forever (notice the avatar). I have loved Steam Engine for years and, it just has so much personal meaning to me. I still remember the exact moment it became my favorite jacket song. I was driving around late at night, deeply upset about something, and it was reeeally dark out, only the orange glow from the street lamps. I was listening to It Still Moves and Steam Engine started, and though I had listened to it many times before, in that moment, it just hit me in some way I'll never forget (clearly, years later I can still see myself in the car and remember that moment). It stirred something up in me, spoke clearly to me, and years and years, not to mention several albums later, it's still my favorite and always will be.
I haven't posted on here in four years!
WELCOME BACK BRO!
Really dig your post because that moment just happened for me within the last couple days...there's something about the way the Steam Engine at Red Rocks 2015 was starting, the way his voice sang "at leaaaast not to meeeeee" it was just...id heard and loved the song a billion trillion fucking times but it just hit me right there....wow...this is it...this is as good as music gets.... :beer:
Yes! Those lyrics always cut right through me! It's funny, I was looking over my old posts on here and most of them are about just Steam Engine lol. I'd LOVE to be able to see them at Red Rocks, aye.
Quote from: My Morning Tube top on Aug 18, 2015, 11:50 AM
I think this whole matter should be resolved via an arm wrestling match or who lasts the longest in a steam room!
settle it the usual way!
(http://kaapow.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/skittles-settle-it-kaapow.jpg)
Hahahah I love your avatar Mr. Offerman haha every time you post its like its Nick Offerman aka Ron Swanson speaking (in my mind) haha
Steam Engine
Smokin
Run Thru