Re: Praise for Evil Urges?

[bignewt]

Just lay low and run through the masterplan, remember what a wonderful man he was!

;)

[tannisroot]

I think ultimately any reservations about the spiritual overtones on this album will subside, once we can look back on the MMJ catalog as a whole and see Jim's complete master plan, assuming he keeps being artistically challenging like Neil Young and Tom Waits have continued to be.  Or at least it'll seem less important.  It's just that it is so in your face and present right now on the (ahem, soon to be) new album that's it's a little disconcerting.  It's just that we're living in an era where politicians have latched onto and abused the public's affinity for religion and faith to get elected, so much so that I am automatically averse to anything that even hints at religion, even in the form of music coming from a band that is quietly becoming one of the most acclaimed and important bands since we got the interweb.  MMJ has the potential to break out and reach beyond music afficionados and into the general public, and I'd rather see them do that by espousing a viewpoint that challenges the prevailing philosophies of the masses, than by using one that so comfortably fits.  I don't know if any of this is making sense and I almost regret starting this topic.  That's usually my reaction to anything I post in a chat room - I question later what good it did to even voice such an opinion, or if fostering "good" was even my goal in the first place.  Perhaps conjuring controversy is the real motivator.  O is the one that is real.

[evilPaauwe]

i think this thread is totally unnecessary and is accomplishing no good.
Nikkogino Part 2, you are really going out of your way and calling someone out which just makes you look like an ass.

[fitzcarraldo]

shot

[theguy]

This topic grabs on to me, so it will now be my first post.

First thing: religiousness means following doctrine, worshipping in specific days and at specific times. Spirituality simply means recognizing something larger than yourself. I think of it as a recognition of the continuity of the universe from the molecular to the cellular to the personal to the cultural to the cosmological level. Maybe I took too many science classes/drugs, but that's my view.

I agree that we are living in an era where religion is exploited as a means for political gain, tyranny, violence, misogyny, and the list continues. But that's nothing new. Religion is a double edged sword. There will always be more thoughtful people who understand religion as a means of expressing spirituality and would be find without church/proselytizing etc. Then you have the Pat Robertsons, the Eric Rudolphs, and the Osama bin Ladens (man Robertson would shit his pants to see him lumped in here) who simply obey a set of rules as they see them fit, but without understanding the underlying humanistic, altruistic message. They fail to see the beauty of the world because they have too strict a view of what is good.

Songs like Look At You are not religious songs in that they invite us to sing about how many sons Father Abraham had, but rely on the completely non-Biblical and non-denominational affirmation that the world can be surreal sometimes, and that it may invite some to commune with the divine. Communing with the divine, though we may not call it that, is why we allow ourselves to get lost in the guitar of Lay Low, to get warm and drunk with our friends, and to eat mushrooms and try to find our lost faces. If he starts singing about Jesus rocking, that will scare me, but as long he's singing about how the world still has the potential to amaze us to the point that we think some higher power must be making it happen this way, that's cool with me.

[TheBigChicken]

If I remember correctly Jesus Christ IS a board member.....Where IS that dude when you really need him :-/

[RedPatokaSea]

This topic grabs on to me, so it will now be my first post.

First thing: religiousness means following doctrine, worshipping in specific days and at specific times. Spirituality simply means recognizing something larger than yourself. I think of it as a recognition of the continuity of the universe from the molecular to the cellular to the personal to the cultural to the cosmological level. Maybe I took too many science classes/drugs, but that's my view.

I agree that we are living in an era where religion is exploited as a means for political gain, tyranny, violence, misogyny, and the list continues. But that's nothing new. Religion is a double edged sword. There will always be more thoughtful people who understand religion as a means of expressing spirituality and would be find without church/proselytizing etc. Then you have the Pat Robertsons, the Eric Rudolphs, and the Osama bin Ladens (man Robertson would shit his pants to see him lumped in here) who simply obey a set of rules as they see them fit, but without understanding the underlying humanistic, altruistic message. They fail to see the beauty of the world because they have too strict a view of what is good.

Songs like Look At You are not religious songs in that they invite us to sing about how many sons Father Abraham had, but rely on the completely non-Biblical and non-denominational affirmation that the world can be surreal sometimes, and that it may invite some to commune with the divine. Communing with the divine, though we may not call it that, is why we allow ourselves to get lost in the guitar of Lay Low, to get warm and drunk with our friends, and to eat mushrooms and try to find our lost faces. If he starts singing about Jesus rocking, that will scare me, but as long he's singing about how the world still has the potential to amaze us to the point that we think some higher power must be making it happen this way, that's cool with me.

Yes!  Thank you for adding some sane words to this convoluted thread. ;)

To get more off topic (because I like where this is going), I'll add a few more thoughts, although I'm afraid most posters will probably just read the title and post away.  Anyhow ...

When one can see that all religions are focused on the same light source, it's easy to understand how, when that light shines through the frames of human culture and institutionalized religion, it can appear quite different.  Religiosity is neither a necessary nor a sufficient indicator of spirituality.

Western religion personalizes a deity.  Christianity goes beyond anthropomorphizing "God" by giving Him a literal human form. It's palatable as it doesn't require any real thinking. The problem is that many religions make the spiritual experience less accessible, rather than more. And it sets the scene for the most profound level of manipulation ... do what we tell you, or you will be punished for eternity.  

Spirituality, on the other hand, is intuitive. For me, it's about striving to understand the true relationship of subject and object, one's own relationship with the cosmos.  Spirituality is about being fascinated with the simple fact that anything exists at all.  It entails a sense of gratefulness for being granted the privilege to take part in this human experience and to have the sound of MMJ grace my eardrums.   :)

In the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"... We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related, the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are shining parts, is the soul."

Chew on that last bit for a while.  Those words contain the most relevatory message a human being is capable of conceiving.  

Or perhaps, just go on posting about how MMJ is now a Christian rock band.  

[RedPatokaSea]

I can honestly say I completely disagree with one of the lyric lines of Smokin from Shootin.

The line about Evolution and faith.  To me, there is one answer to the question.  There are no two sides to that story in my world.  But hey, that's just me.

:)

Listen to the lyrics again.  

I think you just heard the words "evolution" and "faith" too close together and jumped to conclusions.  

He's not talking about what you're talking about.   ;)

[tomEisenbraun]

This topic grabs on to me, so it will now be my first post.

First thing: religiousness means following doctrine, worshipping in specific days and at specific times. Spirituality simply means recognizing something larger than yourself. I think of it as a recognition of the continuity of the universe from the molecular to the cellular to the personal to the cultural to the cosmological level. Maybe I took too many science classes/drugs, but that's my view.

I agree that we are living in an era where religion is exploited as a means for political gain, tyranny, violence, misogyny, and the list continues. But that's nothing new. Religion is a double edged sword. There will always be more thoughtful people who understand religion as a means of expressing spirituality and would be find without church/proselytizing etc. Then you have the Pat Robertsons, the Eric Rudolphs, and the Osama bin Ladens (man Robertson would shit his pants to see him lumped in here) who simply obey a set of rules as they see them fit, but without understanding the underlying humanistic, altruistic message. They fail to see the beauty of the world because they have too strict a view of what is good.

Songs like Look At You are not religious songs in that they invite us to sing about how many sons Father Abraham had, but rely on the completely non-Biblical and non-denominational affirmation that the world can be surreal sometimes, and that it may invite some to commune with the divine. Communing with the divine, though we may not call it that, is why we allow ourselves to get lost in the guitar of Lay Low, to get warm and drunk with our friends, and to eat mushrooms and try to find our lost faces. If he starts singing about Jesus rocking, that will scare me, but as long he's singing about how the world still has the potential to amaze us to the point that we think some higher power must be making it happen this way, that's cool with me.

Welcome home, man. Take your shoes off, get comfy. Please stay a while. Let me know if I can help you out in any way shape or form.

Other new guys, take note: This is GOOD FORM.

[tomEisenbraun]

This topic grabs on to me, so it will now be my first post.

First thing: religiousness means following doctrine, worshipping in specific days and at specific times. Spirituality simply means recognizing something larger than yourself. I think of it as a recognition of the continuity of the universe from the molecular to the cellular to the personal to the cultural to the cosmological level. Maybe I took too many science classes/drugs, but that's my view.

I agree that we are living in an era where religion is exploited as a means for political gain, tyranny, violence, misogyny, and the list continues. But that's nothing new. Religion is a double edged sword. There will always be more thoughtful people who understand religion as a means of expressing spirituality and would be find without church/proselytizing etc. Then you have the Pat Robertsons, the Eric Rudolphs, and the Osama bin Ladens (man Robertson would shit his pants to see him lumped in here) who simply obey a set of rules as they see them fit, but without understanding the underlying humanistic, altruistic message. They fail to see the beauty of the world because they have too strict a view of what is good.

Songs like Look At You are not religious songs in that they invite us to sing about how many sons Father Abraham had, but rely on the completely non-Biblical and non-denominational affirmation that the world can be surreal sometimes, and that it may invite some to commune with the divine. Communing with the divine, though we may not call it that, is why we allow ourselves to get lost in the guitar of Lay Low, to get warm and drunk with our friends, and to eat mushrooms and try to find our lost faces. If he starts singing about Jesus rocking, that will scare me, but as long he's singing about how the world still has the potential to amaze us to the point that we think some higher power must be making it happen this way, that's cool with me.

Yes!  Thank you for adding some sane words to this convoluted thread. ;)

To get more off topic (because I like where this is going), I'll add a few more thoughts, although I'm afraid most posters will probably just read the title and post away.  Anyhow ...

When one can see that all religions are focused on the same light source, it's easy to understand how, when that light shines through the frames of human culture and institutionalized religion, it can appear quite different.  Religiosity is neither a necessary nor a sufficient indicator of spirituality.

Western religion personalizes a deity.  Christianity goes beyond anthropomorphizing "God" by giving Him a literal human form. It's palatable as it doesn't require any real thinking. The problem is that many religions make the spiritual experience more inaccessible, rather than less. And it sets the scene for the most profound level of manipulation ... do what we tell you, or you will be punished for eternity.  

Spirituality, on the other hand, is intuitive. For me, it's about striving to understand the true relationship of subject and object, one's own relationship with the cosmos.  Spirituality is about being fascinated with the simple fact that anything exists at all.  It entails a sense of gratefulness for being granted the privilege to take part in this human experience.  

In the words of Ralph Waldo Emerson:

"... We live in succession, in division, in parts, in particles. Meantime within man is the soul of the whole; the wise silence; the universal beauty, to which every part and particle is equally related, the eternal ONE. And this deep power in which we exist and whose beatitude is all accessible to us, is not only self-sufficing and perfect in every hour, but the act of seeing and the thing seen, the seer and the spectacle, the subject and the object, are one. We see the world piece by piece, as the sun, the moon, the animal, the tree; but the whole, of which these are shining parts, is the soul."

Chew on that last bit for a while.  Those words contain the most relevatory message a human being is capable of conceiving.  

Or perhaps, just go on posting about how MMJ is now a Christian rock band.  

Amen.

[Angry Ewok]

Amen.

*snicker*

[Nikkogino]

i think this thread is totally unnecessary and is accomplishing no good.
Nikkogino Part 2, you are really going out of your way and calling someone out which just makes you look like an ass.

I didn't start this thread....tannisroot was the originator of the thread and he deleted his post and now it looks like I made it.  He came on asking people what they thought...I answered.  How does that make me look like an ass?  

Tannisroot...why did you delete your original post?

[BH]

i think this thread is totally unnecessary and is accomplishing no good.
Nikkogino Part 2, you are really going out of your way and calling someone out which just makes you look like an ass.

I didn't start this thread....tannisroot was the originator of the thread and he deleted his post and now it looks like I made it.  He came on asking for people what they thought...I answered.  How does that make me look like an ass?  

Tannisroot...why did you delete your original post?

You should delete your post and then things will really get confusing! ;D

[Nikkogino]

i think this thread is totally unnecessary and is accomplishing no good.
Nikkogino Part 2, you are really going out of your way and calling someone out which just makes you look like an ass.

I didn't start this thread....tannisroot was the originator of the thread and he deleted his post and now it looks like I made it.  He came on asking for people what they thought...I answered.  How does that make me look like an ass?  

Tannisroot...why did you delete your original post?

You should delete your post and then things will really get confusing! ;D

I know right.

Seriously though...I love the new album and I love the SPIRITUALITY that some people seem to be so afraid off.  I don't go to church on Sundays and I'm not a bible-beater.  But I like how Jim is singing about shit he cares about.  I don't see what the fuss is about.  I'm suprised we didn't hear some of these people whining about "I think I'm going to hell."  

[tannisroot]

I guess I deleted my original post because I was somewhat embarrassed or maybe even ashamed of even posting it.  I dunno.  I have a tendency to write something up real quick before a crystallized idea of what I'm saying has formed and then regretting it after the fact.  But some cool stuff is being said here now.  I like how MMJ has attracted an audience able to eloquently verse and discuss such transcendent concepts.  If that's really where Jim is coming from then that's pretty inspiring.  Looking back, that's maybe while I stayed up all night (completely sober and drug free mind you) after first seeing them, listening over and over to It Still Moves and looking at the lyrics, then watching a Joseph Campbell DVD, then talking about the concert to people for days on end.  At the time it was January and I was receptive to a spiritual message and I received one.  Now four years later I'm not as receptive to this message although it seems to be getting stronger in the music.  It's better that we don't know for sure where he's coming from.  I guess it's hard to convey these abstract concepts, especially in the form of rock music that hits your right in the groin and not the brain at times.  It's just that upon hearing Evil Urges I was thinking that my worst fears regarding this band were coming true...that this guy who I thought had great insight into the world really is no more than just another guy from Kentucky with not quite the expanded world view that I once thought he had.  

The only thing I saw in that Emerson quote that I'm not sure I agree with is the part about "within man is the soul of the whole".  While that may be true, whatever he means by the word "soul" probably resides in more than just man.    I'm kind of the Robinson Jeffers point of view, that man is just an evolutionary aberration.  Here's my favorite (non-poetic) Jeffers quote:
I believe that the Universe is one being, all its parts are different
expressions of the same energy, and they are all in communication with each
other, therefore parts of one organic whole.This whole is in all its parts
so beautiful, and is felt by me to be so intensely in earnest, that I am
compelled to love it and to think of it as divine. It seems to me that this
whole alone is worthy of the deeper sort of love and there is peace,
freedom, I might say a kind of salvation, in turning one's affections
outward toward this one God, rather than inwards on one's self, or on
humanity, or on human imaginations and abstractions--the world of spirits.

[ultravisitor]

Anyone who is shocked at the spirituality that may exist in Evil Urges is clearly an enormous idiot who has never paid close attention to My Morning Jacket's music on previous albums.  I mean, you needn't even go further back than Z to see it: "What a Wonderful Man" could very easily be (and, indeed, often is) interpreted to be about God or Jesus.  And "Gideon"?  There is obviously a concern for religion in that song.

So, for some reason, someone is listening to Evil Urges and all of a sudden sees Christianity or spirituality in the music?  Um, no fucking duh.  Where the hell have you been?

[Nikkogino]

Anyone who is shocked at the spirituality that may exist in Evil Urges is clearly an enormous idiot who has never paid close attention to My Morning Jacket's music on previous albums.  I mean, you needn't even go further back than Z to see it: "What a Wonderful Man" could very easily be (and, indeed, often is) interpreted to be about God or Jesus.  And "Gideon"?  There is obviously a concern for religion in that song.

So, for some reason, someone is listening to Evil Urges and all of a sudden sees Christianity or spirituality in the music?  Um, no fucking duh.  Where the hell have you been?

agreed.

[Angry Ewok]

And "Gideon"?  There is obviously a concern for religion in that song.

On the subject of Gideon, I wrote this post a year or so ago. Hope you don't mind the short novel I have written,

I have met people who are so quick to advertise christianity "If your saved you can do anything you want and stiil be forgiven!" I think this gives people an excuse to piss on their fellow human beings without being punished.

Unfortunately, many people (both the young and old) choose to decide on what their Bible says about particulars without ever actually picking it up and studying it. For this reason, you may find that most self-proclaimed Christians are, in fact, not Christians - but what I call members of the ever-growing Custom-fitted Religion.

More and more people are deciding, "Hmm. This particular law of the Word doesn't really sit well with me, so I think I want my God to say it's okay to be a dickhead my entire life, so long as I say "Sorry" on my deathbed. Yea, that works for me."

And fewer and fewer people are coming to understand the teachings of Christ and what he came for. It's your typical realworld paradox that so many prejudiced, hateful people pretend to be deeply religious followers of Jesus.

In my book, Jesus clearly states to his disciples that he came here only for the sick - who he called the lost sheep. This is why I believe that, of all people, Jesus holds priority for those "on the fringe" that are cast out by society... Afterall, Jesus said it himself, it is not the healthy who need a doctor.

I think the worst part about this 'Custom Religion' thing is that the Church and its Leaders have often shown our youth that it is okay to pick-and-choose what the Bible says, because no matter what you do and who you hurt - you'll be forgiven. Just look at the number of Priests and TV Elitists (no, I didn't mean to say Evangelists) who have been caught with hookers and little choir boys...

As a Christian of 2 years, it's fucking disgusting and disheartening to see these things happening.

TRULY. TRULY WE HAVE BECOME. HATED AND FEARED FOR SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT.
LISTEN. LISTEN. MOST OF US BELIEVE THAT THIS IS WRONG.

Does this line not sound as if its coming from the heart and soul of a present day Christian? Are not Christians feared and hated for something that we (Christians) have clearly defined as wrong? Most of us believe that this, that is, the new standards of Custom-fitted Christians, is completely wrong!

So lets back it up, I'll explain why I think this refers to the Custom-fitted Religion (and I've only used Christianity as an example because that's who I am).

RELIGION - SHOULD APPEAL TO THE HEARTS OF THE YOUNG. WHO ARE YOU? WHAT HAVE YOU BECOME?
YOU ANIMAL. COME ON. WHAT DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF?

Religion should appeal to the hearts of the young - as the youth is universally associated with being pure and uncorrupted. I think we all agree on that, so far...

So, what has become this religion? I'd certainly define present day organized religion as an animal, and I'd even go so far as to relate the current day Church (a social affair, as opposed to a forum of faith), as the same Church that existed during the day of the Judges (where we meet Gideon)... Corrupt.

The Book of Judges. That's what this reminds me of.


Who knows, I may be way off... It's how I've come to interpret it, though. Perhaps this song is asking for another Judge, of sorts? Someone, like Gideon, to come out of the woodwork (or off the wall, so to speak), and rescue the hearts of the young from the corruption of the Church. Someone to remind his assembly of who Gideon, that guy collecting dust in the stained glass windows, exactly was - and what he stood for.

While they're at it - go ahead and remind their assembly of who exactly that Jesus Christ guy was, too.

[Ive got an EVIL plan babe]

I don't really care, but I thought some of you might not have heard the Jim James interview presented on NPR before the live SXSW stream.  You can hear the interview here (The interview link is below the Hear Complete Concert link):  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88163634

He talks about religion/spirituality and, specifically, THE ZONE.

Or check out MMJ breaking down some of their new songs at Rolling Stone:  http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/mymorningjacket/videos/video/20177625/my_morning_jacket_break_down_tracks_from_the_bands_upcoming_record

[pawpaw]

...that this guy who I thought had great insight into the world really is no more than just another guy from Kentucky with not quite the expanded world view that I once thought he had.

Ouch.

I'm not in any position to disagree with you t, I haven't heard the new songs. You've obviously thought about this though, and I appreciate that. I have a feeling that your interpreations are a little (maybe a lot) off-base, and I'm fairly certain that we don't need to worry about MMJ going all God Rock on us.

A few months ago, I was wondering about how writing in Colorado would affect the songs on their upcoming album. Maybe these lyrical references you guys have been discussing came about from Jim's spirituality being tickled by the natural beauty of the Rockies. I know I've had really profound spiritual inspiration bubble up while being surrounded by an amazing natural environment.

Thanks for starting the thread though t...it's brought up some good discussion.