What is the meaning of rock 'n roll?

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

Like the character Phadreus in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" who is going insane trying to chase down a real definition of the word "quality", I too have been racking my brain trying to come up with a meaning of the term "rock 'n roll".  A daunting task, I would say.

Is it defined as one person, one band, one sound, one guitar?  Is Neil Young rock n roll?  Is the Les Paul guitar rock n roll?  Does James Brown equal rock n roll?  Did Jimi Hendrix embody rock n roll?  When you see a picture of Elvis, does that make you think rock n roll, or something else?  

Perhaps it is the bastardization of several art forms into one, living organism.  Or is it it's own art form that's not the sum of it's parts??

Thoughts please, I'm losing it.

[corey]

Rock N Roll is like a big "fuck you", I guess. It's a "stickin' it to the man" feeling, a feeling of rebelliousness.

Oh, and the Flying V is totally rock N roll. Where a Les Paul can be used for other things, you never see a Flying V unless someone is kickin' some serious ass with it.

:)

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

ah, but what about Miles Davis?  He had a flying V...

[corey]

Shit. There goes my theory.  

 ;D

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

well, not necessarily...

I mean, Randy Rhodes had a Flying V, and he was totally rawkin'.  But is it just the instrument?  Morphine was devoid of electric guitars per se (2 string electric bass is not a Stratocaster hooked to a Gorilla amp, IMHO) and they certainly rocked in their time.

[corey]

I'm not sayin' that you must have a V to rock, I'm just sayin' it's probably the most ROCK guitar out there, all things considered.
:)

And yes, Morphine did rock. I was fortunate enough to see them about a year before Sandman passed.

[primushead]

Dude, rock n roll is all about the buzz.  "Like you sayin' you liked feverdog...that is the fucking buzz!  And it's not about the money...although some money would be nice.  And the chicks are great."  Almost Famous anyone?

[corey]

Almost Famous anyone?

Yes, please!
I watched that again not too long ago. I have the "bootleg cut" or whatever it's called with the extra footage. God, I love that movie.

I love how they call William "the enemy".

[EC]

I think rock and roll began as one thing and has evolved into something else.  It began as a style (a fusion of different forms), and now (to me anyhow) seems to be more about an attitude.  I think the attitude was there in the beginning, too - people trying to mess around and create new things.  There's a certain sex factor to rock, as well.  ;)

[tomEisenbraun]

hmmm...

it was, indeed,  born a hybrid. It took the classic feel of americana, and the raucousness of black R&B (back when that actually DID mean rhythm and blues) and mixed it into one dangerous controlled substance. It was explosive from birth, with Elvis, and Jerry Lee Lewis. It was overtly sexual, but in a way that was so crafty and subliminal, that most parents didnt "get it".

So now what is it?

Rock 'n roll embodies a spirit. It is much of that "fuck you" mentioned earlier, but not always just to "the man", but to convention. Hendrix using feeback as a musical weapon, or Page with his alternate tunings, new production methods, and use of the bow. Townshend with his windmill strumming and Ginger Bakers exploding drumset. Twisted Sister, with their freakish take on the sexual scene of the 80s. Nirvana, with a complete "screw you" guitar method and amazing songwriting, leaving most people hooked.

And now My Morning Jacket, with their indescribability. I think part of the essence of rock is that it transcends the song, and becomes more of a sensation. It's a feelin I understand. It doesn't lend itself to easy examination, but has something in it that draws you in and grabs you by the goosebumps that run up and down your arms. My Morning Jacket can do anything they want with their music, whether it be reggae, or a twenty minute long country dance epic, and when else other categorization fails, they are rock and roll.

[EC]

Well said, Eisey!


(John, I should also mention that it's interesting that you mentioned Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...  that book keeps popping up in my world.  Are you reading it again?)

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

Well said, Eisey!


(John, I should also mention that it's interesting that you mentioned Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...  that book keeps popping up in my world.  Are you reading it again?)

Nope, but I have been recommending it to people since I did read it back in the day....why, are you reading it right now?

I haven't read in ages, the last books I finished were the LOTR trilogies...

Question:  Is '50s music somehow more "pure" rock n roll than say, The Eagles or Steely Dan?  

I've been hankering for some Everly Brothers lately.  "dreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaam.....dream dream dream......"

[EC]

Nope, but I have been recommending it to people since I did read it back in the day....why, are you reading it right now?

No, I've read it a couple of times, and a few people have mentioned it, and every time I look at my book shelf, for some reason, it's the first book I see...  Maybe that's a sign....  (I just don't know if I could make it through the quality manifesto again...  Did you ever read the 2nd one, I think it's called Lila?)

Question:  Is '50s music somehow more "pure" rock n roll than say, The Eagles or Steely Dan?  

I've been hankering for some Everly Brothers lately.  "dreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaam.....dream dream dream......"

Well perhaps...  But only because back then you could say something was rock and roll, and you knew what it was.  Now we have so many layers of sub-genres...  I still think it's more attitude than anything, though.  

I love the Everly Brothers.  I think we had the best of or something in a tape when I was a kid, and I remember playing it nonstop and getting my friends totally into it.  


Another thing I just thought of...  I hardly ever say that anything is rock 'n roll.  I might say that it's [enter adjective here] rock, or rockin', or just plain rock, but I think if I was to use the term rock 'n roll, it would probably be to describe something older...  I always think that Led Zepplin is rock 'n roll.  (What is their true category?  Are they prog rock?  I don't really understand the term "progressive rock".  Does that mean that the songs progress, ie, are longer and, ah, in the case of LZ, perhaps a little more metaphoric?  Or is it just because they branched off of the original category?)

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

My very first 45 was "Bird Dog" by the Everly Brothers...we played it nonstop for years, until it didn't play anymore.  I remember getting a big hoot out of the hook "just a bird"...

[EC]

My very first 45 was "Bird Dog" by the Everly Brothers...we played it nonstop for years, until it didn't play anymore.  I remember getting a big hoot out of the hook "just a bird"...

Man, now you've got me running all the Everly Brothers songs that I know through my head.  Bird Dog is great.  I love Wake Up Little Suzy, because it was so bad.  I remember asking my Dad how come they'd get in so much trouble just because she fell asleep, and how come everyone was gonna say "ooh la la".  heh.  He said, "Cuz everyone would think they were gal durn neckin'."  (My Dad does NOT have an accent, he just used to use a weird voice.)

ANYHOW.  Yeah, beautiful.  I think they're the reason I love harmonies so much.  :)

[tomEisenbraun]

Ok, I would say that the ultimate definition of Prog Rock would be Rush. They use crazy time signatures, and create sonic atmospheres. That's not to say Zeppelin didn't do that, but they were much more "rock" in their roots. The base of that band was the blues formula. I think, at it's essence, Rock is basically Delta blues on steroids. You could argue Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters and all kinds of unknown bluesmen as the forefathers of rock, since most original rock was basically that. Just really raucous blues.

But Zeppelin basically did reggae, funk, a mysterious epic, and a 7/8 time signature all on Houses of the Holy. On Presence, they had the epic Achilles Last Stand. III was half folk/acoustic/traditionals.

And this is why the categorization "Rock and Roll" is beautiful, because it encompasses so many of these different aspects. "The Way That He Sings" encapsulates what it is so perfectly. It's a meanin I understand. That's waht rock is, I think. There's a certain indescribable soul to it, and if you fit in that category, you know you do. There's no question, you just do.

[EC]

I think I just had a psychic flash of you in the future.  You and Katie will be living on a big farm and will have about 87 children.  You will make custom-made guitars for a living, but you'll only be able to do that part-time because the rest of the time you'll be a music writer.  Every few years you'll get the itch again and release double LP's of the songs you've been working on.  :)

So, what is the definition of prog rock, then?  Like, rock that people stuck technical difficulty into?  Is it defined by weird time signatures?

I'm going to look it up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prog_rock That's what wikipedia says (and answers.com sends you there, too) It's pretty big.  

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

After seeing Rush 5 times in the 80's, I can agree with that statement.  Prog rock's poster child is certainly Rush.  

Yes and Genesis, in their earlier periods, are certainly proggy as well.  Think classical sounding music, filtered with drugs through Moog's and bass pedals, thrown in some chimes and gongs at 7/8 time signatures, make the songs last 45 minutes each, and you pretty much got it.  A less known, but equally as proggy brethren would be Marillion (who still play, apparently).  "progressive" would be used to describe rock music that wasn't rooted in the mook factor of things-that is, not beery, good time stompers, but LSD/mushroom fueled epics with titles like "By-Tor the Snow Dog" and whatnot.

Pink Floyd was pretty proggy, but early Genesis, Rush, Yes, etc. perfected the art form.  Think Peter Gabriel in a fox head mask and a dress.

[EC]

All right, would Cobra be considered Prog Rock?

[peanut butter puddin surprise]

All right, would Cobra be considered Prog Rock?

hmmmmmm....maybe.  Using disparate elements (like a funky bassline, drum machine and banjo) is a touchstone of "prog".  Ultimately, I think Cobra is a suite of songs put together to challenge the listener.  It sounds like no other MMJ or Jim song, but it sounds like elements of their sound fragmented into something else.  I think Jim was interested in tweaking the audience a bit.  It took me months to fully digest the fuck-it-all, kitchen sink approach he took in that song (s).  (for me, at least)