International Women's Day

[ali]

okaaay.... this is my little pseudo-rant in response.

bra-burning is not good, particularly if you're still wearing it.

when you think "feminist", please don't immediately think of some ultra-ultra-ultra scary man-hating beast. there is so much more to being a feminist than that, as there is more to being a woman than wearing a skirt. you guys out there don't call yourself a man just because you might wear a tie to work do you? they are just superficial labels and symbols that our societies and culture have attached to us to identify us as "woman" or "man". feminist is also just a label, one that most people (both men & women) probably don't fully understand or appreciate, hence the usual immediate "run a mile, she's a bra-burning feminist!!!" response. hey, i'm the first to admit i really don't know the full history of the feminist movement, but i do know what i feel about:

1. being a woman in a western "multicultural" but still quite anglo-saxon-biased society
2. being a woman in a traditionally male-dominated industry (although there are a lot more women coming up.. i work in an office of 5, 4 of whom are women)
3. living in a time & country where i can vote, i can drive, i can go to university, i can make my own life choices as an individual, not being denigrated or restricted because of my sex.

if women want to become a CEO or president, go for it. why the hell not. but why is a power-hungry woman seen as being worse than a power-hungry man? i don't see the difference. personally, regardless of sex, i find that particular HUMAN personality characteristic quite unattractive. and it is a HUMAN quality. there have always been ambitious women who wanted to take control of their lives and even other peoples lives too, they just weren't always out front waving the flag getting all the attention. look at ancient rome or egypt or many other ancient cultures. (some of which were matriarchal societies, god forbid).

women are paid less for doing the same jobs as men worldwide, its not just a US phenomenon. i'm not the most ambitious girl in the world, but i've worked damn hard to get where i am, i love my job, and if society dictated that i get paid less for the work i do and the hours i put in just because i am a woman, then surely everyone can see there is something wrong with that. i understand that there is work out there that women traditionally aren't deemed to be "suited" for (due to being smaller, weaker, less intelligent, whatever...), but if i wanted to be a construction worker or a mechanic or prime minister of australia, and that was my life's goal, then why the hell shouldn't i have the same opportunities? i admit i'd be a pretty crap construction worker, but brute physical strength or height is not always the answer. you have to understand what you have, and find the way to use what you've got to achieve the goal. i am sure i could build a house just as well as you blokes could.

on the other hand, if at 18 i had decided to have children & stay home to look after them, rather than going to uni... that
decision would not have made me any less of a person, any less fulfilled by my life and my decisions. i do think that, just because there are a lot more opportunities and choices out there for my generation than there were for even my mum's generation, there is an impression out there that if you don't become a career-driven workaholic maniac, then you are seen as less of a person, less of a "21st century" woman. which is just weird.  do what your head & heart tells you is the best for you.  and be happy.

international women's day is SURELY more about appreciating how far recognition, acceptance and promotion of women's rights in society have come (even in the last 100 years), and should make us all look at what life means for women around the world today and in the future. so long as there are countries around the world where female genital mutilation is condoned, where women are being stoned to death because they looked at a man not a blood relative or husband... there is a long way to go. we have it so good in the west sometimes. so IMD is not an opportunity for scoring "bonus points". geez, open your eyes...

in australia, aboriginal women only got the right to vote, and the "right" to be recognised as australian citizens in 1967. how incredibly WRONG is that?

ali  :)

[ali]

wow, i didn't realise quite how long that'd got...  ;)

[ratsprayer]

wow, i didn't realise quite how long that'd got...  ;)

you wordy woman   ::) ::)


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[ali]

that's me!! 8)

[tomEisenbraun]

if women want to become a CEO or president, go for it. why the hell not. but why is a power-hungry woman seen as being worse than a power-hungry man? i don't see the difference. personally, regardless of sex, i find that particular HUMAN personality characteristic quite unattractive. and it is a HUMAN quality. there have always been ambitious women who wanted to take control of their lives and even other peoples lives too, they just weren't always out front waving the flag getting all the attention. look at ancient rome or egypt or many other ancient cultures. (some of which were matriarchal societies, god forbid).

on the other hand, if at 18 i had decided to have children & stay home to look after them, rather than going to uni... that
decision would not have made me any less of a person, any less fulfilled by my life and my decisions. i do think that, just because there are a lot more opportunities and choices out there for my generation than there were for even my mum's generation, there is an impression out there that if you don't become a career-driven workaholic maniac, then you are seen as less of a person, less of a "21st century" woman. which is just weird.  do what your head & heart tells you is the best for you.  and be happy.

kick ass.

the first paragraph i  quoted, i wanted to come back and say that i guess i tip-toed around what you said without actually saying it, but meaning it. not that women don't belong as ceo's and that the type of woman that gets into that situation is unattractive, but that most people who head up companies like that are not very "attractive" people (personality-wise). that said, i think it is an unattractiveness that the world is used to seeing in men, which is why it has been brushed off more, because it's not seen as "abnormal." but since women in such a situation are relatively new to the scene, that's seen with some wary eyes.

and that second paragraph i just quoted because its truth, pure and simple. but the world forgets that. a lot of times people kind of go "you're just a stay-at-home mom?" and completely overlook the fact that that is probably one of the most important jobs a mother could take. and its not bad at all, it's one of the most beuatiful things out there--great moms.

i don't think i've got much else to say.

[ali]

i wouldn't be where i am today without my mum, who stayed at home to look after us, and my dad, who worked his arse off to give us a good life  :)

[EC]

Yipeee!  Quite enjoying this thread.  Most people have touched upon a lot of the stuff I wanted to say, but I still got a little left.  realdeal, I did enjoy your picture contributions quite a bit.  I knew those puppets were smart.  

I'm probably telling you stuff that you already know, but the world used to run in matriarchal societies.  Women were in charge, all of the god(esse)s were women, women made the decisions.  The men were kind of considered grunt work.  Which is wrong.  And then that changed a fair amount, and a lot of that had to do with the rise of Christianity and Judaism.  Well, organized religion in general.  And that's just the way it was, so nobody's blaming anybody who's alive today.  And then the pendulum swung pretty far in the opposite direction, and with the onslaught of the written word and with so much faith in organized religion, and a lot of rules about gender roles written within the holy texts, it stuck.  

I'm not a historian.  Most of this is just stuff I remember from lots of things.

Part of the reason it's really important for the Western world to incorporate equal rights (for everyone) is because the 2nd and 3rd world countries tend to follow suit.  Most rights are now equal, but opportunities and abidement of the rights are not necessarily so.

Yesterday I mostly thought about how glad I was that there's a lot of crap I don't have to deal with.  And then I thought about why I am able to think that way.

Tom, a few points about your comments about men and women.  Jaimoe hit the nail on the head when he said that thinking that way is dangerous - we're physically different therefore we have different roles.  I don't agree with that.  Not only because there are big women and small women and big men and small men, but also because the male/female relationship is no longer the only acceptable relationship.  There are many many homosexual couples.  And contrary to popular belief, they don't always fall into the "you're the girl and i'm the guy in this relationship".  People are dynamic.  And as far as families, the same goes.  There are incredible single parents, there are crappy single parents.  There are wonderful "normal" families, and there are wonderful families where both parents are gay.  And it's not just the lesbians adopting the babies.  I know a few gay couples who had to fight pretty hard to adopt their babes, but they did it, and they're tremendous fathers.  So it kind of doesn't make sense to think of the typical roles as valid anymore.

Same with the primary caregivers.  Women can do it, men can do it.  And the children turn out juuuuuust fine.  That may have been different many years ago because the babies needed the boobs, but we have breast pumps now, and a Dad can develop a strong bond with his child through bottle feeding.  Some Dads even choose to wear fake boobs.  Whatever you want.

BUT that does NOT mean that you CAN'T choose to follow the traditional roles.  Of course you can.  And, like in ratsprayer's situation, sometimes you'll get shit even for that, so what the hell, eh?  Everybody's gonna have somebody find something wrong with how they're doing things, but you have to be able to live in a society where YOU figure out what works best for you, and you proceed with your life that way.

I've mentioned this before, but the "year" as we know it was changed by some King back in (I think) medieval times.  Back when paganism was still strong, and Christianity and monarchies were beginning to form, months were called moonths and they were based on the moon cycle, which has 13 cycles in a "year".  Those cycles also followed the patterns of women's menstrual cycles, because women's cycles follow the moon.  The problem was that in the 13th moonth, the leaders (women) would sacrifice a man to the gods.  So when the Kings came on board, they changed the name and cyclical patterns so that there would never be a 13th month/moonth.  Hence the reason we hate the number 13.  Neat, eh?  There's a pretty good example of both sides being retarded.

I used to do freelance work for a feminist theatre company (Tom, those were the peeps who made the email I sent to you with all the stats.)  I remember the artistic director telling me that they did a poll, and most women between the ages of 13 and 30 did not define themselves as feminists because they all assumed that a feminist was an extremist, which is not the case.  As Jaimoe said, there are varying definitions, and unfortunately, that tends to only make it harder for everyone.

Should we go back to a matriarchal society?  Hell no.  Nor should we just go as we are in, what is for the most part, a patriarchal society.  And you can't change the world overnight, but everybody would agree that a lot of change has happened over the past 150-200 years.  There is awareness of equality for everybody that never existed before.

If you're a feminist, it doesn't mean you can't be other things, too: a pacifist, a Christian, a Muslim a stay-at-home-mom, a man.

And in case you don't think that there are still weird stereotypes, let me give you some personal examples:

-Thanksgiving, my Uncle John was talking about his "office ladies".  (He owns a company, and every person who works in the financial management side is a man, and every person who is a "secretary" or does boring office work is a woman.)  So he said something about how they're always on about something or other.  "You know how women are - they always have to bitch and complain."  To ME, he says this.  So upon further questioning, the women were asking for the same health benefits as the men.

-My Dad is pretty good, but every once in a while throws me a curveball (like his George W love), and I can't believe I am a product of his loins.  We were driving around downtown and there was a strike, and yep, most of the strikers were women.  And my Dad goes "Jeez, look at that.  Isn't that typical - the women trying to prove their point."  And, again, he says this to ME.  

-You would not BELIEVE how many people talk about the fact that I'm a woman when we're talking about music.  I gave a demo thing to some dude for some thing, and he writes back and says nice things, and THEN says "I was surprised, because generally I'm not very interested in most female singer/songwriters."  And that made me feel like suddenly I wasn't even in the "singer/songwriter" category, but I was in the lesser, female version.

And you know that most people don't mean shit that way, but it's also interesting to see what people actually do believe.  And hell, let me tell you, it works in the opposite direction.  I have said stupid shit like "You're such a fucking guy." or, assuming that somebody's behaving badly because they're a man.  So none of that is cool.

Oh lord how long is this going to be.  I think I've made all my points.  Roles aren't set in stone anymore, women still get the shaft because they're women... oh wait!!

I can't remember what it's called off the top of my head, but it used to be the law, until LAST YEAR, that family disputes within Jewish or Muslim familes could be settled in Religious Courts.  Some of the rulings CONDONED beating your wife.  (Is it the Koran, or possibly the Torah as well, that gives a husband a lot of leeway in the violence department?)  Yeah dudes.  That's fucking CA-NA-DA.  The government finally overuled and said that all disputes must be settled in regular courts.

So there.  That's enough.  I really liked reading what everybody had to say.  :)

[ali]

it's all interesting isn't it? i love reading & writing in these massive discussions we get goin on here...

Yesterday I mostly thought about how glad I was that there's a lot of crap I don't have to deal with.

me too. we are soooo lucky

[ycartrob]

now this is a can of worms! Great discussion. I consider myself a quasi-femininst and use plenty of feminist tenents in counseling, exploring issues of power.

 I can add that men need to question why we are fearful of women being powerful. Rush Limbaugh came up with "femi nazi" b/c that scares people (as nazism should). Like terrorist. FEAR. So many of us are raised to feel if a woman is in power, then we are "less than". And if you are "less than", then you lose. Men aren't supposed to lose, especially to women. (I have had groups around date rape, exploring the American fascination with winning. When a woman on a date says NO, in theory, she has WON. That doesn't sit well with many maschismos, so the man must WIN...). I could go on and on and on....

Glad to say I am proud to be a part of a message board that's willing to talk about this stuff.

[EC]

now this is a can of worms! Great discussion. I consider myself a quasi-femininst and use plenty of feminist tenents in counseling, exploring issues of power.

I can add that men need to question why we are fearful of women being powerful. Rush Limbaugh came up with "femi nazi" b/c that scares people (as nazism should). Like terrorist. FEAR. So many of us are raised to feel if a woman is in power, then we are "less than". And if you are "less than", then you lose. Men aren't supposed to lose, especially to women. (I have had groups around date rape, exploring the American fascination with winning. When a woman on a date says NO, in theory, she has WON. That doesn't sit well with many maschismos, so the man must WIN...). I could go on and on and on....

Glad to say I am proud to be a part of a message board that's willing to talk about this stuff.

I'm really glad that you brought those points up.  I never really thought about date rape being a power issue - I mean, aside from the obvious.  That's a very interesting way of looking at it.  What about date rape between men?

[ycartrob]

I'm really glad that you brought those points up.  I never really thought about date rape being a power issue - I mean, aside from the obvious.  That's a very interesting way of looking at it.  What about date rape between men?

What I have learned is it's about power So much of what we do in life falls in where our power is. You can really dissect people's actions when you look at power; who has it, who doesn't, and what some will do to get it, even if brief or destructive.

[jrat]

some fuckin jerk off drugged my sister and her friend at a bar. i came home at 3 am and saw lying on the floor all fucked up and crying. she didnt get raped thank god, cause an all out massacre would have happened, garnered world wide attention. she knew something was happening and she left before she could become prey. she was found by a friend in a snow bank about 2 miles from my house. i sobered up real quick thats for sure. woke my parents and brought her and her other friend, whos boyfriend had taken her home, and brought them both to the hospital. it could have been one of her friends she was drinking with too, some sort of nasty joke. no idea. i dont think it was GHB, cause she would have never been awake for several hours, but she rememebrs most of it. what ever it was, her friend just got denied health insurance from that toxicology report. hoping to find out tommrow what it was, maybe track down some loser skid drug peddler and fuck him up. now im getting furious, putting on AT DAWN right now >:(

[ali]

that is seriously awful.... hope your sister & her friend are ok... there are some shit people out there

[EC]

Wow jrat.  I'm really sorry to hear that.  That must be so hard.  I have heard so many stories like that in the last while, and it's disturbing and frustrating.  Especially when it's your sister.

I hope everybody is okay.  Man alive.

Date rape and that drug were only briefly starting to get talked about when I was in highschool and University, and it wasn't really an issue in the theatre school.  But when Jen wento to University of Iowa, they actually gave a lecture to the students about how to avoid getting slipped something.  And she said to some people afterwards "Wow, people are really paranoid here."  And then she heard about five stories of people having had it happen to them.  It's a sad world when you can't put your beer down to go to the bathroom.

What I have learned is it's about power So much of what we do in life falls in where our power is. You can really dissect people's actions when you look at power; who has it, who doesn't, and what some will do to get it, even if brief or destructive.

So, when  you're talking to your groups, what do you tell them is the way to do it?  Is it that power is ultimately in yourself, and if you feel that then you'll be okay in most situations?  (I'm talking about self esteem here, NOT about physical abuse.)  And what kind of stuff does a person do to feel their own power?

(I hope it's clear that I am really interested, and I'm not trying to set you up or anything.  Internet clarification.)

[ycartrob]

I get power by giving it away. I spend time with people. Time is power, especially with adolescents who don't have positive adult role models.

Being with someone in a non-judgemental, caring way is empowering to the other person, if they don't ever get that.

Story: waiting for the Jacket to come on in Nashville I was like 3 rows from the stage when this frat looking guy, 2-fisted-draft-beered, smoke hanging from his lip came busting through to the front. He eventually stopped next to me, holding his beers over his head, people scoffing at him, him basically saying "Fuck ya'll". So I thought, this guy is way out of line and he is expecting some shit from someone (and he looked like he had been through some shit in his day) and the way people are looking at him, some shit could happen soon. BAD KARMA! BAD KARMA! So I thought, well, this guy obviously loves the Jacket, so do I, so perhaps I have an in. Plus, this guy was pretty much controlling how everyone else felt, and I wasn't going to let him do that to me, so I excerted my power. SO I started to talk to him, like a real person, not like some ass who just busted up to the front. "You seen these guys?" "Fuck yeah" he said, "I don't listen to anything but My Morning Jacket".  I could feel the tension lowering and we talked more. I broke out my ID to prove I was 41 cuz he did not believe me. He started talking about school, how he was a senior in college and failing out b/c he was drinking/smoking too much, he talked about not knowing what he wanted to do with his life, etc...and The Jacket just made him forget about all that shit. and in the middle of that crowd, with all that bad karma, it all turned around b/c I gave up my power; I could have been a dick to someone who was being a dick, but I chose not to, I decided to do something different.  And in turn, he gave up his power of being a dick and shared some heavy shit with a total stranger. And after that, 1 or 2 people around him actually spkoe to him and the karma was back to better. Then the Jacket came on stage and blew our minds!!

Point? Instead of letting this guy dictate how I felt, I took back my power (b/c I let him take it from me) and empowered him enough (treated him like a person, like me) to where we had a meaningful conversation (well, for 2 total strangers in the middle of a crowd at a concert it was meaningful). The power was in the caring and figuring out a commanality (The Jacket).

That may be vague and it's late, and I will figure a better way to describe that situation some day, but fer now it will have to do.

And if that guy posts here, that's how I saw what went down.

[EC]

word.  :)

[jrat]

nice explanation. my brothers a bouncer, and has used that tactic more than strong arming people ,to defuse a volatile situation. keep the peace!

[EC]

So today google has a little cartoon for Percival Lowell because it's his birthday.  That's neat.

But it made me decide to write to google and ask them why they didn't do anything for International Women's Day.  I know they don't have to or anything, I just thought I'd see if I got a response.  I'll let you know.

And Tracy, I've been thinking a fair amount about what you've written about power.  For some reason it's just the word that I'm not connecting with, and I'm wondering if you felt like defining it.  I'm wondering if power is synonymous for self worth in this equation.  I think I don't quite understand it.

[Jellyfish]

I love women...have a happy day. ;D

[ycartrob]

And Tracy, I've been thinking a fair amount about what you've written about power.  For some reason it's just the word that I'm not connecting with, and I'm wondering if you felt like defining it.  I'm wondering if power is synonymous for self worth in this equation.  I think I don't quite understand it.

Not to sound too relativistic, but where do you feel most powerful? (physically, doing what; mentally, thinking which way; emotionally, feeling what?). And where/when do you least powerful?

Now, how do you compensate for those weak times? Or do you? Is part of your power accepting things you are powerless over?  Do you try to change those things? How do you share your strengths with others?

People get their power from anywhere and everywhere. The trick is to figure out  if you're excerting your power one place (example: gay bashing) b/c you feel less power in another place (failure to admit same sex attraction). Or, are you using your own strengths and power to your benefit? Some would say making millions is using power constructively, others say being a social worker and working with the poor is using your power constructively.

Tough call...

Great movie about power? Amercian Beauty (there are hundreds of other great movies about power, but this one covers so many levels of power, escpecially in the milieu of "ordinary folks").