International Women's Day

[EC]

I think I understand what you're saying, Tracy.  It's the word power that I'm not understanding.  I'm not sure why the word "power" is being used.  

Okay, if I'm having an argument with someone, and I know that it's a "power" struggle, that I can understand.  One person is feeling like the other person has more power, and they react to that, trying to regain their own.  The various techniques to do so are either helpful or not helpful, but the struggle is the imbalance of  "power".

But what I want to know is what does that mean?  Does power boil down to self confidence?  Because if you're a comfortable person, not much can phase you unless you're in situations of potential abuse.  You can have an argument with somebody, but if you're cool with you, it rarely matters with they say to you.  They can even think they have the "power", but that may not be the case.  

(I'm only quoting power because I'm still not sure what it means.)  Again, I get the premise of the techniques, it's the word that I struggle with.  Because, as I think you've implied and I agree, the only way to have power is to get it yourself.  You can help other people achieve their own, but you can't give it to them.  

Anyhow, if I'm not making sense, let me know.  It's the definition of power that is confusing me.

Thanks.  :)

[ratsprayer]

i think power is all subjective, just like anything else.  it means what you want it to mean for yourself.  thats just my opinion though.   ;)

[ycartrob]

Let's not confuse powerful people with empowerment. I know a lot of powerful people without self-confidence; that's why they put themselves into powerful positions.

Let's take Bill Clinton. The most "powerful" man on the planet potentially compromises his presidency b/c some intern wants to give him a hummer (or 2). Now where in this man's life could he feel so powerless, so weak, that he puts the presidency on the line? I mean, if I have sex with an intern at work, I am done. Out. Finished. (Plus I would have broken a vow to my wife, but that's a whole other can of wormage). This could easily have happened to Clinton, but some part of his life had a void that needed to be filled, some void that being the president of the US  could not fill. Catch my drift?

I like to think of power as strength. If Clinton could have admitted that his weakness was women (supplant  the applicable Freud analogy about mommy/daddy and anuses here) then he could have avoided almost being impeached. Or perhaps he was not empowered enough to make such an admission. But, due to lack of self confidence (IMO), which he covered up with his intellect and drive, he nearly got impeached.

This is my opinion and it's been my experience that power drives us. We could discuss millions of analogies and what ifs, and buts and such, but that's hard to do in this format. I don't have the sole answer but I have given it a lot of thought.

Clear as mud now?  ;)

[ratsprayer]

hmm, i guess the huge piles of coke on his desk at the governor's mansion in arkansas never helped him to get empowered.


(the above statement is fact, verified by someone my family personally knows who did contracting work at said mansion.)

anyway, clinton is/was a dick, too.  to keep with the subject here, i think clinton knew he was a very powerful man, the pres of the US knows that, no matter who he is.  i think he empowered himself with the belief he thought hed get away with it, on every level.  no trouble with his wife, certainly i dont think he ever thought that something as mundane as sex would have him considered for impeachment.  he may have a weakness for women, that can easily be said, but my opinion is it was a personal misuse of misunderstanding of one's own power that led him to do it.  of course, im not him, and thats only speculation and my opinion and take on his motives.

[Jaimoe]

hmm, i guess the huge piles of coke on his desk at the governor's mansion in arkansas never helped him to get empowered.


(the above statement is fact, verified by someone my family personally knows who did contracting work at said mansion.)

Well,  to some extent, that finally explains where he developed some of his heart problems.  

[ycartrob]

If Clinton didn't think he could get in trouble for having a sexual relationship with an intern then he would never have waved his finger at America and said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman". As far as I know, having sexual relations with an intern is a pretty serious ethics violation. It's not the same as a co-worker.

Pretty sure he knew what he was doing and what the ramifications would be if caught; that's why he lied about it.

Now there is a certain grandiosity and narcissism for him to believe he would not get caught, but I truly feel he knew he was taking a risk.

I always wonder what would have happened if Lewinsky would have been a male intern. Wonder how Clinton would have been treated if that were the case...

[EC]

I like to think of power as strength.

Okay, that's what I was looking for.  I'll get to the Clinton/Lewinsky sidetrack in a sec.  

So is power then an ethical thing?  Are you powerful if you follow your code of ethics?  Or maybe you're powerful if you think things through and decide to make (what you think is) the right decision?  Is a good person a powerful person?  Or, maybe the opposite is more true - a powerful person is a good person.  

Man I keep getting a hint of what I'm driving at and then it escapes me before I have a chance to fully think it out.  So bear with me here because I'm going to try and work it through.

It starts with debating.  I have a really big problem with debating.  Sorry, I mean that I know how to debate, but I don't like the form.  It involves two people, each trying to win the debate (to tie things together, each trying to gain the "power" in the situation.)  And it may not even be so that each person is working together to try and get to the bottom of the topic, instead, they're using techniques to try and disarm the other person with their oratorial skills.  It's a rare debate (formal debate) where the other guy says "oh man, you know, you're absolutely right.  I never thought of that."  Instead, they will search their brainy bag of tricks for a way to manipulate the situation so that they seem right.  

It's always bugged me.  It teaches people how to win arguments and not how to listen to each other, and try to work together to figure out the right answer.  I may have a certain sensitivity to it because an old boyfriend was a master debator and logical genius, and trying to have any kind of argument about any kind of issue was impossible because he would use his sneaky techniques and I wasn't skilled enough to follow my own through.  And I find myself doing that sometimes, too.  Not answering somebody's question directly because I don't know how, and instead saying something as assinine as "You'll change your mind when you're older - believe me."

Back to power.  The same can be said about power as I just said about debating.  There are tricks that you can learn in order to either increase your power or to manipulate situations to your own favour.  IF you don't really understand what power (or strength) is.  So Bill Clinton (just to get even messier and throw that stuff in) manipulated his position of power in order to bang an intern.

Maybe  It's entirely possible that Monica Lewinsky really wanted to suck him off.  It's also entirely possible that she had ulterior (power) motives in the bargain, as well.  Or maybe they were both so high on coke that neither could really make a good decision.  

I also don't think Ms. Lewinsky was the first or the last woman that messed around with Bill Clinton.  

And I think that ratsprayer was right when he brought subjectivity into this mix.  If we follow your definition of power as being about strength, and then follow my lead to include ethics, then power does become subjective, as most peoples' ethical codes vary.

Oh I've dug such a hole for myself here.  I really appreciate your humouring me on this Tracy, but it really is something I'm trying to sort out and understand.

I suppose the true wonderment is whether or not there are certain situations where you are powerless, and are unable to gain that power back.  Is there always a way to get your power back?

If it's helpful, I'll use an example.  And maybe this is a good thread to use this example.  Let's say a woman is married to a man in a situation where the man has the freedom to exert any punishment he deems necessary upon the woman, be it violence or emotional abuse or both.  That woman lives in a society where that kind of behaviour is condoned.  She is basically powerless.  Let's even make it harder - let's say she has tried to escape to another country, and was caught, and given back to her husband.  What can a woman like that do in order to gain back her power?

(That's really hard.  I'm not actually asking you to answer that question, it's kind of the extreme example of a case where somebody truly has no power aside from ending her life.)

Would that be a situation where it would be impossible for her to have any power?

[ratsprayer]

i dont have the power to answer any of these questions.






:-/

[EC]

hahahaha.  :)  that actually made me laugh really hard.  :)

[ycartrob]

Not sure that woman in that position can do much. Like people being enslaved and what not, power is hard (if not impossible) to find. I feel that's where spirituality can lift up one to power.

And I do agree with Ratsprayer about subjectivity (but don't tell him I agree, I have a reputation to uphold). And ethics play in too. Did you see the movie Wallstreet? When Gordon Ghecko said, "Greed is good"? Well, to him, that was true. And to many Americans, being rich is "good" (though some won't admit it). It's the ones who try to make wealth and power fill some void in their life that I have an issue with (or a saddness). Because money cannot fill that void. It took me a long time to figure out that there are good rich people who do good things and generate wealth for communities. But see, I grew up with wealth and unhappiness, therefore, I projected my unhappiness onto other wealthy folks, thinking (beyond a doubt) that they were all miserable and unhappy; I have come to find out that some are, some aren't.

I would challenge you to think about what message you give yourself (subconsciously) when you lose a debate. Is this a familiar (old) message? Does this message come out in other parts of your life? Is their reality based in this message? And is their fear attatched to this message? I feel we are driven by power and fear. We try to have power over the things we fear and we fear what we do not have power over.

For some reason a Jeff Tweedy line comes to mind: All my lies are only wishes.

But Clinton? Does he get some from the intern if he is working at McDonalds? Well, of course it depends; if he is manager he has better odds than the fry guy. However, there are some McDonald's managers who are faithful to their wives and who feel like such a sexual escapade would not be in the best interest of their future, career wise or relationship wise. So there are less educated, less "driven" people making better moral and ethical decisions than rich, fat cats.

And the hard part of all of this is, SO WHAT?

And what about Hillary? Does she empower women by standing by her man through his sexual impropieties? Or does she know she can get to where she needs to go by hanging on to her man? Does it matter?

I once told a classroom of 40 women (I was the only male in my social work program) that women could be running the planet in 25 days if they abstained from sex (not just fornication, but stopping selling themselves to men as sexual objects) for 1 month. I got some grief, however, the professor later told me she agreed with me and some people just aren't able to hear the truth.

Talk about strength and power! Women have it and give it to men constantly. (now THAT'S a can of worms!)  ;D

[EC]

Iiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting, you are quite a sneak.

All right.  I agree with you about spirituality being able to lift people up from horrible situations.  I think that has a lot to do with hope.  I don't know what it feels like to be in a situation like that, and I find it extremely difficult to think that a person could find hope there, but then some do, and you love them for being such heroes.  There are many examples of people like that in history (stories from Nazi prison camps come to mind first), and I find those stories incredibly uplifting.

I also hear you on projection.  I almost always question my initial reactions to things to see if what I'm really feeling is justified, or if it's coming from something else.  And I think that's a good thing to do - especially if your reaction is a negative one.

As far as my personal issues with debate, I think I'm okay with it.  What I do is as soon as I get the sense that I'm dealing with a cunning linguist (;)), as opposed to a partner in truth, I get really finicky about being specific and consistent, and try to contest any point that I feel is coming from a place of wanting to win, as opposed to a place of wanting to understand.

That's my favourite Jeff Tweedy line, by the way.

I feel we are driven by power and fear. We try to have power over the things we fear and we fear what we do not have power over.

This I am very interested in.  I'm not sure I understand what form of power you're referring to - good power or bad power?  (Self-fulfilling power or "Clinton" power?)  Are we trying to overcome our fear, or do we try to destroy the thing we fear?  Or are they the same?  Or does it depend on what kind of person you're talking about?  Does a person with a strong sense of self have fears?

That's a good question.

I once told a classroom of 40 women (I was the only male in my social work program) that women could be running the planet in 25 days if they abstained from sex (not just fornication, but stopping selling themselves to men as sexual objects) for 1 month. I got some grief, however, the professor later told me she agreed with me and some people just aren't able to hear the truth.

You are now officially the Tom Robbins of the My Morning Jacket message board. ;)  I have thought that before, but it is confirmed.  

hmmmmmmm.  Well women did once rule the planet, and the sexual dynamic was in fact reversed.  Obviously there are people in this world who are more enlightened than that, but it's an interesting point.  It also means we have to stop thinking that way - using our sexuality as weapons of power.  (I'm talking about humans here, not just women.)  Although, I'm not sure it can be helped.  I know that sometimes I don't even know the extent of my own incredible sexual power, and therefore don't know when I'm using it to get stuff.

har.

Talk about strength and power! Women have it and give it to men constantly.

That I'm not so sure about.  How can you give power away to someone?  Do you mean that they give up their own?  Is power a system of weights and balances?  Or do people work on their own individual scales?  I tend to think of the latter.

I need to think about this a little more.  It's very interesting, though.  It also bothers me.

[ycartrob]

M,

I also have to add, and I'll use your words here,  you'd probably have liked your old boyfriend better if he were more of a cunning linguist than a master debator...

this, of course, would make you seem him in a little more favorable light.

T

[ratsprayer]

zing!

[EC]

Aye, and yet it was in fact his cunning linguism that made me stay with him as long as I did...  

p.s.  bootsy collins is a WONDERFUL choice

[Jaimoe]

I once told a classroom of 40 women (I was the only male in my social work program) that women could be running the planet in 25 days if they abstained from sex (not just fornication, but stopping selling themselves to men as sexual objects) for 1 month. I got some grief, however, the professor later told me she agreed with me and some people just aren't able to hear the truth.

That argument makes sense in a fantasy world where women are respected and treated as equals. Imagine the support and protection women and wives in many current patriarchal countries would receive from their archaic pro-male legal systems. What would stop men (the pig kind) from forcing sex on women like they've been doing for thousands of years? Why would this end?  

[ycartrob]

Aye, and yet it was in fact his cunning linguism that made me stay with him as long as I did...  

hey, a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do

[ycartrob]

That argument makes sense in a fantasy world where women are respected and treated as equals. Imagine the support and protection women and wives in many current patriarchal countries would receive from their archaic pro-male legal systems. Men force sex on women every second in every way imaginable in this world. Why would this end?  

It was just food for thought.

[EC]

That argument makes sense in a fantasy world where women are respected and treated as equals. Imagine the support and protection women and wives in many current patriarchal countries would receive from their archaic pro-male legal systems. Men force sex on women every second in every way imaginable in this world. Why would this end?  

Tremendous point, Jaimoe.  

I'm also not entirely convinced that, even in a fantasy world, that's the literal truth, however I understand the point.  And yes, for sure, in our Western world.

[ratsprayer]

all right, here's the simple yet cynical and somewhat dismal attitude i have...

a lot of people, maybe even most, whether they be men or women, suck in every way you can imagine.  however, it just makes the good people out there look even better.   ;D

[Jaimoe]

I'm looking it as the world as a whole. I really don't know of any country that has total equality both legally and socially between men and women. There are native communties in both Canada and the US that are matriarchal. Other than that...

Imagine what would happen to women if they decided to band together into one giant socio-political sexual revolutionary movement in blatantly patriarchal societies found in the Middle East, Asia and East Asia (just using these regions as examples). Things would not go so well.