here goes...

[tomEisenbraun]

okay, since we've got politics up here already, I figure I'm ready to drag my faith onto the board again, and see what you guys have to say.

In my Math/Logic class today, we had a big discussion about the way Mathematics works as a language by which we interpret the mathematical laws and whatnot, and it led me on to a much much bigger thought process, which we were able to discuss and really develop in a way that had my brain running at 90mph. so i got out of class and called my stepdad, and sent all this through him, and he helped me to put words and some more concrete-ness down to it. i want to bring it here, because i want to hear what you think.

i've gotten nailed pretty hard for what i believe before on here, and i can take that again, i know where i stand and I'm not ignorant about it. if i thought it could not stand, i wouldn't believe it.

so please read this if you've got the time and energy to keep up with it, it just kind of spilled out of me after all that thinking and talking, but I hope it makes sense. if there's holes, lemme know. hell, if you've got anything to say, lemme know. i wanna hear it.

and also, know that by posting this i'm not trying to force you guys to be christians. i don't know most of you on a very personal level, and i don't believe in a faith where my goal is to convert everyone who doesn't plug their ears when i come around. i would love to be able to show you some things about the faith, to be able to answer any questions i can, or whatever i can do. what it comes down to, i'm not trying to be rabid about this to you guys, but rather to show you somethign i care a ton about. i'm doing my best to live my faith though, and in doing so, i earnestly hope it reflects in what i contribute here.

i know this is really touchy, since we've all got a lot of different backgrounds, but since we all do, why not discuss it? throw any thoughts in here you'd like, and we will be civil about discussing it, and thinking.

you guys are great.

~Tom

(this is where to go to read it)

http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=tomEisenbraun&nextdate=4%2f20%2f2006+23%3a59%3a59.999

[wellfleet]

ola tom. i read your thoughts several times and i absolutely respect your views because they don't seem to disrespect anyone else's.
that said, i'm not a christian and don't plan on becoming one. i go back and forth on god, more so recently because of some things i've kind of (maybe) figured out. at least, i think i did, but i may be wrong.
imagine a guy who claims that the oak tree in his back yard is speaking to him in a language only he can hear and understand. the same guy then writes a book about this oak tree and how the tree's teachings contain the meaning of life. the man refuses to obey the rules of say, virginia, where he lives, because the tree has told him that different rules apply to him. the man then tells his children that they must obey the tree's teachings as they are the only truth. now, most people would look at this guy and think he needs to be in a padded room wearing a helmet... but his belief is no more and no less insane than people who believe in Christ, the resurrection, Moses' burning bush, the plagues of Egypt, the 10 Commandments being handed down, lord Xenu, Ganesha the half-man, half-elephant. to subscribe to a religion, one must suspent reality as one knows it and believe the unbelievable and unknowable. because it's a religion, it's considered normal. but if i believe that wearing green on fridays will keep me from being abducted by space aliens, i would be considered insane.
religion, by definition, is a form of insanity. it's a belief in, well, belief. there is nothing to substantiate your belief in God and Christ. if there were, everyone would convert. and the fact that Christ is unknown to parts of our planet goes further to show that Christ may not be everyone's answer. because i cannot believe that an undiscovered tribe in the heart of the Congo is doomed in hellfire because they've not been converted.
tracy wrote me an absolutely fantastic note about his belief, and while i can't do it justice in one sentence, i understodd that yes, people do use their religion as a crutch, as something to lean on because life is freakin' hard enough already.
you wrote that where our knowledge ends, god begins and i don't agree, because our knowledge increases every day. 100 years ago we knew nothing of what we know today. 100 years from now, who knows where we'll be. i'm a huge fan of math's perfection but math is *our* way of interpreting the universe, not the universe's way of explaining itself. it's a man-made system that we make fit, not the other way around.
but regardless...
i see your religion as bringing you great comfort and peace and i think that's really good. i would say that there are many versions of god, and many versions of creation, and death, and life... if there is a god, i don't think he's in the business of choosing to save only those who believe in him.
there's much we don't know, but maybe the operative word here is *yet*...

i saw a great commercial for the United Church of Christ the other day that made me cry. it was about acceptance of all god's people. it was amazing. i wish all christians were like that.

[ycartrob]

I think it's important to grasp Tom's first sentence: "...the very nature of God lies in the fact that our human minds cannot comprehend Him."

Tom's not saying it's hard, like Algebra hard or quantam physcis hard, to comprehend God; he's saying we cannot comprehend God. I think that's what trips up intellectuals (christian and non), this not knowing and this inability not to know. It's called faith.
 
 Frederick Buechner sums it up best (for me):  Not the least of my problems is that I can hardly even imagine what kind of an experience a genuine, self-authenticating religious experience would be. Without somehow destroying me in the process, how could God reveal him/herself in a way that would leave no room for doubt? If there were no room for doubt, there would be no room for me.

I know it doesn't help the discussion to describe religion as "a form of insanity" b/c it implies that Tom is insane. Perhaps Tom has a deeper understanding of himself than we do?

 Plus, "math" occured in nature way, way, way before man was around.

[wellfleet]

nononononono... i was not implying that tom is insane.
again, tom, i don't think you're insane.
i'm just saying that, just objectively and impassionately looking at proclamations of a Christ-like figure, or any deity. to me, they're no more and no less plausible than me talking to a pine tree. i can't prove that the pine tree talks back to me, and i have yet to see anyone prove the existence of a god. believing in something without a shred of evidence is called faith when it comes to religion. but *other* people who believe *other* things that only they see are cast aside as not sane, not living in reality, crazy, etc.
i think that, as an intellectual, it THRILLS me that i don't know everything, because the possibilities, then, are endless for discovery and exploration. i am a strong proponent of faith. not necerssarily religious faith, but all kinds of "hard-core belief". if it weren't for faith, my honey and i would have never gotten through 6 years of long-distance agony. when everyone told us we were crazy, we held on, and i think i'm a better person for it.  i'm not hating on religion, especially not the way you (tracy) subscribe to it. i admire it. i just like the idea that faith comes in many shapes, and i would think *myself* quite arrogant to believe that my brand of faith was any better than yours, or anyone else's.
there are billions of people on this planet, some of these people have a POV that i can never hope to understand or grasp, but i'm not about to tell them they're mistaken.
i am not saying anything about tom because i don't know him. i respect his bravery in talking about his faith and belief, especially because he knows it's unpopular to do so.

Tom, i think it's awesome that you stand by your beliefs. i am grateful for you sharing those beliefs because it's a chance for me to learn something new.  
plus, math does occur in nature, but it took us to give it value and meaning to explain nature to our fellow man. it's a lot like time. the 24 hours is a man-made thing. the sun sets and rises but it took a human to sum up this period, decide to divide it into equal parts and call it an hour and a day and a year. so even though time in essence has always existed, we decided we needed to quantify and define it.

[NickFryerMusic.Com]

The Religion is in the music. There is certainly math in music. But there is also soul. You can't quantify that. I was never much for math, or religion.

[TEO]

I liked it! Especially about how everything was created w/purpose. That fits right into my whole deal. I respect all diversity in religion and I think you expressed yourself very well without coming off too much like a (please don't take this wrong) Jesus Freak. Keep your faith going as we all need something higher to believe in or the rough times can become unbearable.
-dat de GOD gives 's meant to be used-
(((((((MMJ)))))))