NCAA Hoops 2007-2008

[primushead]

Anyone checking out the UCLA vs. Michigan State game tonight?

It'll be interesting to finally see Kevin Love play some good competition.

[ycartrob]

Anyone checking out the UCLA vs. Michigan State game tonight?

It'll be interesting to finally see Kevin Love play some good competition.

Just waiting to see my son play.

[tower]

Ahhhhh, my team is one good offensive big man away...damn!  We led the entire game until the last minute, such a pisser!

[primushead]

Anyone watching the ACC/Big 10 Challenge?

Georgia Tech and Indiana is coming down to the wire...

...and of course UNC vs. OSU tomorrow night 8-)

[ycartrob]

Anyone watching the ACC/Big 10 Challenge?

Georgia Tech and Indiana is coming down to the wire...

...and of course UNC vs. OSU tomorrow night 8-)

I'm in.

[tower]

Don't forget MSU/NC State...another chance for one of our bigs to step up to the plate.

[bowl of soup]

Anyone watching the ACC/Big 10 Challenge?

Georgia Tech and Indiana is coming down to the wire...

...and of course UNC vs. OSU tomorrow night 8-)

I watch every year because I love college hoops, but can we finally make this a real challenge and replace the Big Ten with say the Big Sky or the WAC?  Yet another route is underway, and I'm sorry Big Ten but the excuses are a tad thin after 9 years.  The numbers prior to this years challange:

ACC 8 - Big Ten 0 overall.
ACC 53 - Big Ten 28 every game.

The only Big Ten team with a winning record in the challange is Michigan State at 4 and 3 and that could change tonight.  How they consistently get many more bids than the ACC (8 to 4 last year) is one of the world's great mysteries.

Big Ten.  Overrated. Every Sport.  Every Year.

[tower]

The ACC is usually better at the beginning of the year but the Big Ten better at the end.  

For instance...Duke, they're very good right now but they won't be any better at the end of the year.  Michigan State, pretty good right now but will most likely be better at the end of the year.

Plus I think the Big Ten plays a much different style that sometimes gets them in trouble with the ACC officials. Big Ten teams tend to play more physical and better team defense, teams like N. Carolina don't seem to play much defense at all instead they rely on the athletes they recruit.  Case in point, Michigan State had no biz seriously challenging N. Carolina in last year's tournament. In the end, we were not deep enough to keep up with Carolina's horses in the last few mins. Although if Idong Ibok doesn't dislocate his elbow it might have been more interesting.  But then I'm not a fan of Roy Williams...I'm always shocked how many times they get beat on the back door play.

That being said, I'm really looking forward to seeing how far MSU can go this year. We're young but talented but our biggest weakness is how one-dimensional our bigs are. Put them all together and we have one incredible player...if only.

[bowl of soup]

Ahhhh, the excuses.  The Big Ten plays better at the end of the year because they get teams into the tourney at 2 to 1 ratio and the ACC schedule is fucking BRUTAL.  Do the ACC official officiate every game of the "challenge"?  If by "team defense" you mean boring and by "athletes" you mean good basketball, then we agree.  The SWAC would do just as well.

[tower]

No excuse just my opinion. We're typically not as good at the beginning of the year but we make great progress.  Our schedule is just as brutal and sometimes more so, as a matter of fact we beat the hell out of each other for months instead of just running up and down the floor shooting.  We play defense and rebound which wins championships.

No, ACC officials don't officiate every game...and the ACC doesn't win every game either.  Like I said, sometimes I think we get in trouble because of the officiating. Tyler Hansbrough doesn't get those calls in the Big Ten and his effectiveness goes way down. He's  good player but not nearly as good as Dickie V. would like to think.

By team defense I don't mean boring, I mean everyone working together to play defense with a team concept.  And no, good athletes doesn't necessarily mean good basketball. But great coaching turns those athletes into championships consistently. Great coaching also takes teams with less athletic ability and gets more out of them, especially by using team concepts.

Dean Smith had some of the most tremendous athletes ever, even Michael Jordan...two championships, great job coach.

[ycartrob]

Plus I think the Big Ten plays a much different style that sometimes gets them in trouble with the ACC officials.

Once you are wearing a uniform that isn't Duke or North Carolina, then you're playing a style of basketball that officals don't like...

I cannot stand these big time college programs that are run like NBA teams (except the small fact that the players are not paid (well, at least not over the table)). You got these million dollar deals with Nike and whoever and all the money goes to the coaches and university but the players (90% of them who will never see the NBA) never see a dime, but they act like professional atheletes. Hate it.

That's why March Maddness is loved by everyone more than the BCS sham. David gets his chance to beat Goliath. David, with his "second rate" players and "second rate" facilities, gets to go against the big boys and it's settled on the court, not by some rich pigs who control the bowl games (BCS).

One of my all time favorite March Maddness moments (and I have watched ever final since 1976 when Indiana beat Michigan to complete an undefeated year) was this past tourney when Fayetteville, North Carolina's own Eric Maynor rose up for VCU to beat Duke in the first round. I love the fact that Maynor grew up in the backyard of all those ACC powerhouse teams and they all said he wasn't good enough, while they turned their eyes and wallets to talent all across the globe. He got the chance to show up some folks and he did. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

[bowl of soup]

Just do it on the court.  Win all 5 games tonight and sweep all 22 games over the next 2 years and you'll almost be even in the "challange".  Remind me again of how many great current coaches in the Big Ten have actually won championships.  Let's see, there's Izzo.................................

[tower]

My Spartans have done fairly well in the "challenge"...at least I think so but then again I don't really care.  It's November, not March.

I'd say the ACC has some very good coaches, some up and comers and a couple great ones. Coach K has obviously proven himself although I don't care for them and their attitude anymore. Gary Williams is a great coach in my opinion although maybe not the best recruiter. He's done great things with lesser talent. Roy Williams is over-rated in my opinion although a very good recruiter. Even Dickie V mentioned the other night about them needing or wanting to commit to really playing team defense. And he's one of the biggest ACC butt-boys out there.

Big Ten...Izzo has proven himself as a great coach. One National Championship but many final fours.  I think Weber is very good, Ryan is very good, Matta is one hell of a recruiter but I'm not sold on his coaching. Sampson is a crook, not impressed.  Be interesting to see what Tubby does at Minnesota, maybe he can find an offense there.

Year in and out I think the ACC has had better overall players. Maybe because it's easier to recruit in the South? Minnesota and Wisconsin have to be hard sells...even E. Lansing (great town).  

Both conferences have won 10 national championships.

[ycartrob]

Year in and out I think the ACC has had better overall players. Maybe because it's easier to recruit in the South?

Intersting theory. If you look at the rosters from the 2 conferences, you'll see that the Big 10 is mostly represented from the home state of the team, whereas the ACC recruits mostly from out of state (and not neccessarily from the south). Is that b/c the ACC is a basketball conference? Probably. How do you think Coach K or Roy Williams would do if they coached Wisconsin with 11 players from Wisconsin? Or how would Izzo do at Duke where he could get just about any player he wanted? Is it the coach or the program? All I know is that the ACC has more talent b/c they can draw from a larger pool, has more TV exposure, etc...

Here's the breakdown of home state players vs out of state players. (fun facts!)

ACC Home State Numbers
North Carolina- 8
WF-7
Maryland- 6
FSU- 5
VT- 4
GT- 4
Clemson- 4
UM- 3
UVa- 3 (3 from Africa also)
NC State- 2
BC- 1
Duke- 0 (Duke has 1 player from the south)

BIG 10 Home State Numbers
Illini- 12
Minn- 11
Wis- 11
MSU- 10
UM- 10
OSU- 9
Purdue- 8
NW- 7
Indiana- 6
PSU- 6
Iowa- 1 (it is Iowa afterall)

I think this is why everyone hates Duke so much. They're in your "backyard" but they won't let you play in it (or even invite you to play in it). They're the Notre Dame of basketball; ND has 103 players on their football roster and 9 (nine) are from Indiana.

I'd say given the talent pool, the Big Ten does better with what they have.

It's a fact!

[bowl of soup]

Gary Williams is a great coach in my opinion although maybe not the best recruiter. He's done great things with lesser talent.  

I now love you more than you'll ever know.  You might think that this Big 10/ACC debate would inspire me to say something nice about Dook - you'd be wrong.  Top 5 hated Dook players ever:

1.  Bobby Hurley
2.  Jayson Williams
3.  Mike Gminski
4.  Christian Laettner
5.  Alla Abdelnaby

[tower]

Alla Abdelnaby...that's funny.

[primushead]

Damn...I've been at work all day and have missed the Dook bashing.  I hate Dook so much...SO MUCH, but I have to admit that they looked very good last night.  Or was it that Wisconsin was awful?  Also, WHY ISN'T DOOK PLAYING ANY TRUE ROAD GAMES UNTIL MID-JANUARY (against Temple??!?!)  They always do this, and it pisses me off.  But, it's probably why they've done so poorly in the Tourney the last 6 years.

As far as the Big10/ACC recruiting talk goes, though, I wouldn't give too much more of an advantage to the ACC as the Big 10(or anyone else for that matter).  

I think tradition rich schools such as UCLA, Carolina, Kentucky etc. HAD higher odds of landing recruits up until a few years ago.  Today the best players (overall) want a ticket to the NBA more than anything, which means they'll be happy to play at any college that will give them exposure and, most importantly, playing time.  After all, one of the best players in the nation plays for Kansas State...Michael Beasley.

To me, it seems more challenging for the big schools to land deep talent because, after all, why would a very talented point guard want to compete for the starting point guard spot against another very talented point guard?  "If I'm wanting to go to the NBA after one or two years, why don't I just play at (for example) Iowa?  I'll get huge playing time in the spotlight, and won't have to be overshadowed by other talent at the powerhouse schools."

Just a thought.

[primushead]

Roy Williams is over-rated in my opinion although a very good recruiter.  

;D ;D ;D

Did I miss something?  524 wins (not to mention hitting that 500th win faster than any other NCAA coach in history)  in 19 seasons, a win percentage that is fourth-best in history, a national championship, 11 regular-season conference titles, five Final Fours, 16 first-round draft picks and that is over-rated?  

I think Tom Izzo IS a very great coach, and runs a hell of a basketball program...but he still falls over 200 wins short of Roy, 1 less final four appearance and so forth.  

But, If you have a valid argument for Roy Williams being overrated, I'd love to hear it. ::)

[aMD]

I think everyone in this thread knows I'm a big ten fan but it's not really a basketball conference.  We have some talent but when basketball season comes around I definitely end up watching more ACC games than Big Ten.  Don't get me wrong, I love OSU and Purdue but the ACC is where the big boys come to play.

I'm a pretty big Duke fan.  They have a great winning tradition.  They run a clean program. They have one of the most upstanding coaches in all of sports.  They have the best, most intelligent and prepared fans in country and most of the time the same holds true for their players. Not to mention the academics at Duke.  Yeah, I can see why a UNC fan might hate them.

I was surprised to see Laettner so far down you're list, BoS.  Every list of hated players I've seen put him #1, but then again I live in Kentucky.  :)

[ycartrob]

there's only one thing worse than a Duke fan, that's a bandwagon Duke fan. I can understand if you went to school there, but how anyone can root for those spoiled brats is beyond me. Let me see, I think I'll pick a team that's always in the NCAA tourney and root for them! Yeah, that's it!

please